Talk:Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Last paragraph in "history" is based on Israeli agitprop

Every source provided rests solely on the testimony of Israeli spokespeople, and even the released pictures could as easily show victims of Israeli friendly fire as victims of Palestinians. Israeli spokespeople are not credible sources.

Incitement to genocide, including children and mothers who breed them

This is an example of a common statement, recently reported in Haaretz but going back via WB rabbinical exhortations to Golda Meir at least Chen Maanit Israeli Police Recommend Closing Case Against Yeshiva Head Who Said All Gazans Should Be Killed Haaretz 18 June 2024 Nishidani (talk) 08:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2024

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Please delete the following

"During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, Hamas mutilated, tortured, killed and burned Israeli children as part of their surprise attack on Israel, drawing international condemnation. Hamas kidnapped more than 30 children, holding them hostage in Gaza."

or at least change it into.

"According to some Israeli emergency responders, Hamas mutilated..."

This shouldn't be mentioned at all since most of these stories turned to be fabricated and the sources used are obsolete let alone be mentioned in wikivoice — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 03:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

do you have an RS saying that these stories are fabricated Rainsage (talk) 06:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell there were two controversies of misinformation or strangely-still-unverified stuff about mutilation of children by Hamas that went beyond the social media crap (that is, promoted by officials and/or given significant coverage). This should not be taken to discredit the basic fact that all the other stuff that went through mainstream scrutiny has been pretty much verified. The two are the still-unverified 40 beheaded babies and the essentially false (dubious from he start) baby-in-an-oven claim. "Burned Israeli children" probably therefore needs to be checked that it's referencing something else that's actually credible.

The rest happened. Setting aside all the day-of photographic, medical, and testimonial evidence, Hamas officials did not deny the basic nature of the atrocities when asked in interviews after Oct 7. SamuelRiv (talk) 06:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Business Insider is not an RS apparently... The TOI article doesn't say anything about mutilation or burning of Israeli children, just quotes Netanyahu referring vaguely to "atrocities". Need better sources for these claims. Rainsage (talk) 08:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The burden of proof is on you to show that it's a fact, the sources used are Times of Israel (biased) citing a i24news (apparently owned by the Israeli prime minister) journalist and Business Insider quoting Blinken (SecState of Israel's N°1 ally). These sources are in no way enough to make this due let alone stated in wikivoice.

Read Misinformation in the Israel–Hamas war#Allegations of beheading and ZAKA#2023 Hamas attack on Israel — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 06:51, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's truly bizarre to call the 40 beheaded babies story "still unverified". Is it possible that such a thing would not by now have been verified by those working for almost a year to meticulously document all the victims? "Thoroughly established as false" is the only accurate description. The problem with the current sources is that they are too close to the event and appeared while wild stories were still in mass circulation. Find more recent sources or remove the text. Zero^talk 07:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

erm, I guess you want to answer the other guy (⁠´⁠ ⁠.⁠ ⁠.̫⁠ ⁠.⁠ ⁠`⁠)... — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 07:58, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry. Zero^talk 10:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it seems like Haaretz debunked the 40 beheaded babies in this article: https://archive.ph/gO9f8 Rainsage (talk) 08:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's still unverified because it's not verified. I don't know if it's debunked -- credibly disproven. But if it's unverified and RS seem to say there's not been credible evidence, then it should not be mentioned at all.

In reply to Rainsage: If the cited RS doesn't say "burned" then we shouldn't say it. Also, you don't cite BI, you cite the sources that BI cites. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BI cites Yossi Landau from ZAKA. Many of his and ZAKA's claims have been discredited by TOI, Haaretz, AJ, etc. [1][2][3][4] Would also prefer to use sources written later than October.

what do you think about my proposed edit below? Rainsage (talk) 16:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should include both the Israeli claims and the counterclaims.... agree the cited sources are not great. I will have to look around for some better ones. Rainsage (talk) 08:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't Israeli claims versus other claims, and no we should not report debunked nonsense. We have "misinformation" articles for that. Zero^talk 10:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

do you have RS saying that the claims have been debunked?

Hamas did kidnap children, so that should be included. Rainsage (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thoughts?

During the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, about 40-42 Israeli children were taken hostage by Hamas, and 38 children were killed.^{1 2} About 40 children were released in the November 2023 prisoner exchange.¹ Most of the children were killed near their homes with at least 1 parent.⁵ Two Israeli children, Liel and Yanai Hetzroni, died in Kibbutz Be'eri during a battle between Hamas fighters and IDF soldiers during which an Israeli tank fired on the house where they were held hostage.^{3 4} Israeli reports that children were tied together, baked in an oven, or beheaded were later debunked.⁵

1: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/38-children-were-killed-20-orphaned-on-oct-7-the-state-did-not-pass-the-test-of-protecting-them/

2: https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-children-believed-held-hostage-in-gaza-many-of-whom-could-be-freed-in-hamas-deal/

3: https://archive.ph/Zm6bn

4: https://archive.ph/HLmjh

5: https://archive.ph/gO9f8

Rainsage (talk) 04:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IDK if I have perms to comment any further, but please allow me to suggest the following as improvement.

"During the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, 38 children were killed, and about 40-42 Israeli children were taken hostage by Hamas, 40 of whom were released in the November 2023 prisoner exchange."

The rest looks fine to me, although I don't think that mentioning their names is due, and IDK if "Most of the children were killed near their homes with at least 1 parent" is due.

This will be the last time I comment on this, I'll let the pros decide ^^. — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 05:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the change, including numbers killed and hostages taken. We will only have secure verified information sometime in the future and for the moment just the known facts are to be registered.Nishidani (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also in Simple English...

Hello, I know the topic is contentious. I just wanted to point out that an aricle has been created in the Simple English Wikipedia (here). I have just summarized the intro of this article, but it might be too litlte to be useful.It also lacks sources. If anynoe wants to contribute, they are welcome. I am aware that the whole of this conflict has been going on for close to a century; there are no easy solutions. Still, Wikipedia isn't censored, but controversial statements need backup from reliable sources. Eptalon (talk) 12:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]