Talk:Palestinian Arabic

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Merging Jordanian Arabic and Palestinian Arabic into South Levantine Arabic?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, no consensus reached to perform the merge. ---αβοοδ (talk) 00:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I realize this is a politically charged issue. However, nearly every linguist I have read on the subject does not make a distinction between Palestinian and Jordanian Arabic and instead refer to the two as one South Levantine Arabic or Palestinian-Jordanian Arabic. Linguistically, it seems the more meaningful distinction is between Madani and Fellahi. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to erase anyone's identity before I state that both the Ethnologue and the Glottolog (which are seldom in agreement on anything) recognize them as one language, with the two dialects instead being Madani and Fellahi. I'mreallygoodatsocialsciencenoreallytrustme (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC) ^[1] ^[2] ^[3] ^[4] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7] ^[8] I'mreallygoodatsocialsciencenoreallytrustme (talk) 17:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Youareprobablyreallygoodatsocialscience, it is an interesting subject. I do not know enough about it to be able to give a good judgment on your proposal. I did notice that there are quite some scholarly publications that do explicitely mention Palestinian Arabic, these are just some examples, there are dozens or hundreds of them:

"Acquiring Noun Plurals in Palestinian Arabic: Morphology, Familiarity, and Pattern Frequency Saiegh - Haddad, Elinor ; Hadieh, Areen ; Ravid, Dorit, Language Learning, Dec, 2012, Vol.62, p.1079(31)",
"Rural Palestinian Arabic : (Abu Shusha dialect) Shahin, Kimary N. author. München : Lincom Europa 2000
A sociophonetic account of morphophonemic variation in Palestinian Arabic, Cotter, William M. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, April 2016, Vol.139(4), pp.2216-2216 Carol (Talk) 17:17, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi User:Carol_Fenijn! Within the articles you have provided as examples, as well as within countless other journal articles, the term "Palestinian Arabic" is used as a synonym for "South Levantine Arabic," "Palestinian-Jordanic Arabic," or "Palestinian-Jordanian Arabic." It is not being used as to create a distinction between Jordanian and Palestinian Arabic. On Wikipedia, we have both articles. My point is that they should be merged into one article as to reflect overwhelming scholarly consensus. On Glottolog, LinguistList, as well as WALS (databases which Wikipedia normally defers to), it is explicitly stated that, within the linguistic world, Palestinian Arabic is regarded synonymously with the aforementioned designations. I am not debating the nomenclature; I am merely proposing accuracy, as well as consistency. I'mreallygoodatsocialsciencenoreallytrustme (talk) 02:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Youareprobablyreallygoodatsocialscience, that they can be seen as synonyms is very well possible. I tried to falsify the thesis that they are the same and that is not a very easy thing to do. I hope others, preferrably experts on Levantine Arabic, will also give input on this. I currently have no objections to a merge. Carol (Talk) 16:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@I'mreallygoodatsocialsciencenoreallytrustme: I would say that there are strong geopolitical and cultural reasons, beyond linguists' classifications, influencing the organization of the articles, and little chance of consensus for a merge. As long as the article subject meets notability requirements, and it uses the common name for the concept, I don't see a problem with it. Also, I would say that Ethnologue etc. group the languages of the regions together in their classification, not that they "recognize them as one language". There are clearly identifiable differences between the languages spoken in Palestine and in Jordan (and also within those). Although I'm strongly against the use of made-up language classifications that seems rampant on Wikipedia ("Outer Southern Levantine Arabic" is not a thing!!), I think there is plenty of support and good reason for a Palestinian Arabic article, even if it doesn't have its own official language code for example. There are dozens of books with "Palestinian Arabic" in their titles, and thousands that use the term. Having said that, I'd be interested in an article on South Levantine Arabic, or a better explanation in the Levantine Arabic article about the North/South Levantine official classifications, and perhaps some of the common material could be consolidated there, without the need to delete the two existing articles in a full merge. I was trying to get information about it, and found it lacking. Also, neither the Palestinian Arabic article nor the Jordanian Arabic articles say much about the other, or compare what the differences and similarities are. A new article (or section of Levantine Arabic) could be helpful in providing that. --IamNotU (talk) 18:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - current article is very inaccurate. Palestinian Arabic is spoken in central Israel, in northern West Bank and in parts of Jordan. In Galilee - it is Lebanese Arabic (Northern Levantine). Palestinian is in fact a central Levantine Arabic dialect, while Southern Levantine is mostly spoken in Gaza strip, by Negev Bedouins, Hebron area and in most of Jordan.GreyShark (dibra) 07:51, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

oppose - if you do anything with the Palestinian Arabic page the better thing to merge it with is "languages of Palestine" which really needs expanding, it should include Hebrew, English and which dialects of those (it seems Israel uses American and Palestine uses British), rates of fluency, stats on literacy, social and political context etc. Plus the accent / dialect divergence between Gaza Strip and West Bank, and could possibly also include the Yiddish spoken by the small community in East Jerusalem. MWQs (talk) 16:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. "South Levantine Arabic" itself got done away with by ISO and was merged into North Levantine Arabic to become "Levantine Arabic". Jordanian and Palestinian Arabic are distinct enough that a Jordanian in Palestine (or vice versa) can easily be identified by dialectical differences. -αβοοδ (talk) 00:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Druzes

It is not clear to me why Druze linguistic varieties are described here. Druze do not reside in the State of Palestine and are not considered or consider themselves Palestinians. Furthermore, Galilean Druzes and Carmel Druzes speak Northern Levantine Arabic, so why is it included in this article?GreyShark (dibra) 13:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Greyshark09 it's a good point. It's complicated by the fact that the eminent analysis of the split language used by the Druze (by the Druze linguist Kheir herself!) uses Palestinian as the comparandum for the Arabic "side" of the language, rather than Syrian, as might be more accurate technically. It might make sense to split off Israel Druzi Arabic I suppose. As I understand it, the Arabic of the Druze in Syria also marks them off from their neighbors, but is not the same as what we see in Israel (and not just because of the recent phenomenon of Druze "Palebrew" as described by Kheir 2019). Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 12:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli Druze Arabic is indeed a unique kind of dialect - a Northern Levantine Arabic which has become so heavily influenced by Hebrew over the past century that it might well be a defined as dialect on its own right, certainly apart from the Palestinian Arabic, but now also apart from Northern Levantine Arabic too.GreyShark (dibra) 10:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

as a druze , from my experience , druze arabic in the galilee and the carmel is closer to palestinian vernacular arabic (and is a branch of it , since this is not a political term it is used to describe the arabic that is spoken in this area ) than it is to syrian or lebanese or northern levantine arabic in terms of vocabulary and the way it is spoken (we have a lebanese druze in our village and their dialect is very distinguishable from the local dialect ) , specifically in the galilee and the carmel , while in the golan hights they speak with a dialect that is syrian . 77.137.22.34 (talk) 11:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Levantine Arabic Map 2021.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The way [q] is spoken in the village yarka

their is a very unique way the village of yarka speak the [q] letter , maybe the only village in the israel-palastine area that speaks it that way so it shiuld be mentioned , i think you can find a source on it in this book https://brill.com/view/title/55885 77.137.22.34 (talk) 11:46, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Levantine Arabic FAC

Levantine Arabic has been nominated for FAC. Any feedback would be more than welcome :) A455bcd9 (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Figures

Some issue with the figures. The article gives the number of speakers just over 4 million. However, the Palestinians article give the number of Palestinians to be over 14 million. --95.24.70.129 (talk) 00:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all Palestinians speak Arabic, for instance, almost all Palestinians in Central America have lost the language. Also, a small number of Palestinians don't speak "Palestinian Arabic" but Levantine Bedawi Arabic (you may consider this scholarly division artificial but Wikipedia follows it). But then, what about Palestinians who live in, for instance, Jordan or Lebanon and speak Arabic: do they keep their ancestral Palestinian dialect or do they switch to the local Jordanian or Lebanese dialect? I don't know. The article just uses the number of Levantine Arabic speakers living in Gaza and the West Bank. It's maybe the best we can do unless we have better reliable sources? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of speakers

What is the reason that just 4 million speak Palestinian? --95.24.65.201 (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merging Modern Palestinian Judeo-Arabic to Palestinian Arabic

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given the independent notability and distinct culture of Modern Palestinian Judeo-Arabic; keeping the content separate avoids confusion. Klbrain (talk) 11:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The young stub source seems a good candidate for merging into the mature longer target. Gjs238 (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm...I dunno. It is distinct enough as a dialect of its own. -αβοοδ (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's also (near) extinct, I think it deserves to keep its own page! I don't see similar merge requests for other Judeo-Arabic variants? -αβοοδ (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Imagine you have two kinds of cookies: chocolate chip and sugar cookies. While they may look similar and share some ingredients, they taste different because of the way they are made. Similarly, Modern Palestinian Judeo-Arabic and Palestinian Arabic are like these cookies. They both come from the same language family, like how the cookies come from the same baking ingredients, but they have their own unique flavors, just like how the languages have different words, sounds, and ways of speaking. So, while they are related, they are not exactly the same Yolia21 (talk) 01:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kinda seems distinct enough to have its own article. By the way Yolia21's explanation is great! ElLuzDelSur (talk) 07:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the arguments for a merge, but based on the arguments made by the opposing side, I think a separate article may be worth it. Particularly the distinct history might be a relevant factor.FortunateSons (talk) 19:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The difference between Palestinian Arabic and Palestinian Judeo-Arabic is quite important, because combining their Wikipedia entries would obscure each language's rich diversity and distinguishing traits. Firstly, let's consider their linguistic differences. Palestinian Arabic is a dialect of the broader Arabic language, spoken by Palestinian Arabs as their native tongue. It has evolved over centuries within the Palestinian community, influenced by various historical and cultural factors. On the other hand, Palestinian Judeo-Arabic is a distinct variety spoken by Palestinian Jews, primarily before the mass migration of Jews from Arab countries in the mid-20th century. It bears the imprint of Jewish culture, incorporating Hebrew and Aramaic vocabulary and expressions. Their distinct histories highlight the necessity for independent representation. Palestinian Arabic is deeply rooted in the indigenous Palestinian community, showing a linguistic tradition passed down through generations. Palestinian Judeo-Arabic, on the other hand, has a distinct history molded by the Jewish community's experiences in Palestine, as well as connections with other Jewish communities in the Middle East and North Africa. By maintaining separate Wikipedia pages, we honor both linguistic traditions and ensure that users can access accurate information about each one without confusion. Merging the pages would risk oversimplifying the complexities of these languages and overlooking their distinct cultural and historical significance. Yolia21 (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OPPOSE They are different languages. We need to be more specific in order to conserve all knowledge of mankind. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:ECC7:8630:F902:DCDB (talk) 04:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] ttps://www.ethnologue.com/language/ajp

[2] ttp://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/sout3123

[3] ttps://iso639-3.sil.org/code/ajp

[4] ttp://www.lexvo.org/page/iso639-3/ajp

[5] ttp://www.language-archives.org/language/ajp

[6] ttp://multitree.org/codes/ajp

[7] ttp://odin.linguistlist.org/igt_urls.php?lang=ajp

[8] ttp://wals.info/languoid/lect/wals_code_apa

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