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This is the current revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 13:42, 16 October 2024 (Archiving 15 discussion(s) from Talk:Basel) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version.

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Archive 1


http://www.basel.ch

http://www.basel.com

Basle?

The article claims that the traditional English spelling be Basle. Is this really the case? I thought it is an alternative English spelling that is more or less disused today. Kokiri 09:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I used to see "Basle" in British English texts written before WW 2. Occasionaly I still see it. But the prevelent spelling today seems to be "Basel". --TGC55 18:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I think writing "Basle" is incorrect and has to do with writing what is closest to what was pronounced. But in order to be politically correct, one should separate pronounciation and style of writing - I think. LIllIi 23:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)Ran J. 21:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Does anybody have any proof that English speakers other than bankers refer to the city by its German name? If we start calling Basle "Basel" where will it all end? Calling Geneva "Genf" or "Genève"? Surely an encylopaedia has to reflect fact as it is today rather than what the Basle tourism board wants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.6.205.113 (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2007
This English speaker (in the U.S.), along with everyone I know to have an opinion the matter, uses "Basel." If this is not enough to satisfy you, check the work of the leading American scholar on this city, Lionel Gossman. In his earlier work he spells the name "Basle," but he switched to "Basel" well before the end of the last century. So "Basle" appears to belong with "Peking" on the list of obsolete English spellings of geographical names. -- Rob C (Alarob) 20:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • As a Briton living in Basel, I too have seen Basel spelt "Basle" and pronounced the French way. My understanding is that this is the traditional way. However probably because of the not so great impact of the town in the English-speaking world, this has almost mostly been forgotten. Note that in UK airports today, it's still spelt "Basle" and pronounced as it is in French. After reading the Wikipedia "Circumflex" article <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumflex>, it seems translating the letter "a" with a circumflex or carret ("â") into English becomes "as". So "Bâle" becomes "Basle" like French "hôpital" becomes English "hospital". However for some reason we're still using French pronunciation for "Basle".
  • I disagree with the usage of the phrase "British English traditionally: Basle". "British English" describes a dialect of English. Here I believe you're trying to refer to what the people of Britain (exclusive to the rest of the English speaking world) have traditionally used (which I disagree with anyway--see my previous paragraph).
  • I always assumed that the English people choosing to pronounce it Bale did so under the misapprehension that Basel was in fact a French speaking city or a split city like Biel/Bienne. Now whilst we may not want to call Geneva Geneve, we certainly wouldn't call it Genf either. Fundamentally, I don't think that Bale/Basle have had enough impact on the English language to become so ubiquitous that we absolutely have to maintain them out of deference to 18th century travel writers, as frankly, they are ludicrous. It should be Basel, of course.

Some Google figures: Google, Basel 51 million, Basle 1.4 million. Google Scholar, Basel 1 million, Basle 90'000. Google Books, Basel 10'000, Basle 4'000. — 213.38.11.86 (talk) 08:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

@CdaMVvWgS:
At http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=basle you will find that the traditional English pronunciation which corresponds to the traditional spelling is [ba:l] rather than [ba:sl] (which is what you wrote) or [ba:zl] which is the more modern English rendering corresponding to the endonymic spelling. --Akkolon 10:05, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

That is incorrect. The website you linked in your post reads, quote "Pronunciation: ['bä-z&l]". This surely is a misunderstanding on your part, because [ba:l] - what you suggested to be the traditional spelling - is infact the French variant: Bâle. LIllIi 23:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, even though its traditionally written Basle in British English its spoken like the French [ba:l] (mind that travelling from Basel, Switzerland to England (and back) ment travelling through France...) - Kind regards from Basel, --Goonies 10:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC) (Oh, btw... nobody's going to kill you if you still use Basle)
Helen Williams, in her 1798 book (A tour in Switzerland; or, a view of the present state of the governments and manners of those cantons...), consistently spells the city's name Basil, suggesting to me that she pronounced it like the name of the herb (or of certain men...). -- Alarob 19:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
She might have taken it from the italian/latin name of Basel: Basilea. Plus, 'Basil' in English and 'Basel' in Swiss-German are pronounced pretty much the same. --Goonies 09:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ciba SC

Added it back to the article as it isn't a subsiduary of Novartis. Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy merged in 1996 forming Novartis, and Ciba Specialty Chemicals was formed as an operationally independent company the following year.

Roger Federer & Patty Schnyder

Hello, I think that those two people:

  1. Patty Schnyder (1978--), tennis player
  2. Roger Federer (1981--), tennis player

Are not from basel city, they are actually from basel country. Roger currently lifes in Oberwil ( a little village) and about Patty I don't know.Fanatisch 13:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this is the Basel article not the Basel-City one. Roger Federer is from Münchenstein, which is technically in Basel-Country but belongs to the agglomeration of Basel(-City). It's a bit of a gray zone but usually everybody in the agglomeration of Basel states that he/she is from Basel, when beeing asked. (Except if a local person asks). Therefore I think its ok to have those two (and some others) in the list. --Goonies 09:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You are contradicting yourself if you are arguing in favour of keeping mentioned individuals stating that this is an article about Basel. Basel is a city in the canton of Basel-Stadt. Inhabitants of cities located in Basel-Land should be mentioned in their respective cities' article. LIllIi 23:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh well, sorry, I always confuse this basel/basel-city thing... dooh! But I did some research: According to Patty Schnyders official webpage she IS from Basel. Also, for me it's OK to have Federer here as well. First, you can find the precise details in his Biography. Second, it's not me wanting Federer to be in the Basel article, its just that the information, that he's from that region might not be that obvious anymore after removing. Where else do you want to put this useful information? He's born in Binningen (stub, there is a note in the article already) as many, many of the people in the agglomeration of Basel (why? its where the Bruderholz Hospital is located). He grew up in Münchenstein (stub) and lives now in Oberwil (stub). All these cities are in the agglomeration of Basel (see also my comments above). But I agree that technically he is not from Basel and you could remove his name if you'd feel the need to do so. --Goonies 16:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Basel population

Although this article says that Basel's conurbation, with 690,000 inhabitants, is Switzerland's second-largest, that honor in fact belongs to Geneva (750,000). Brendan 619Brendan619 19:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether this point is still up for discussion, but according to official figures, the Basel conurbation has 730'000 inhabitants while the Geneva conurbation only has about 660'000 inhabitants. Besides, Basel is Switzerland's second most important economic centre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.188.255.28 (talk) 18:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Person rellevant?

I'm afraid this person (Daniel Bernoulli (1936-?) Geologist) is not rellevant, because:

I suggest erasing this name from the article, unless notability was proven.--Pere prlpz 18:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The same applies to those not well-known (only locally or nationally) football players (I am going to delete them). We should be a bit careful to add people which are still alive. Everybody can claim to be someone.

Quarters

"Basel is not subdivided into official counties, districts or boroughs, but into unofficial quarters. There are 19 quarters; the municipalities of Riehen and Bettingen are not included." It's not at all clear what that means. If the quarters are unofficial, who defines them? The author of that sentence? What's the distinction between a "quarter" and a "district" anyway? Lfh 10:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to the official Basel-City statistical website: http://www.statistik-bs.ch/quartier -- The terms Quartiere (quarters) and Gemeinden (districts, more literally communes) are used by the city. The word "unofficial" may be confusing here. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 14:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Basel Elite

sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sochi is mine (talk • contribs) 03:59, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

German-speaking?

The article does not currently mention whether most people in Basel speak French or German. Could this be added? thanks. Itsmejudith 12:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Swiss-German —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.252.161 (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

sister cities

it was not mentioned that basel has become city partners with shanghai china

also, nothing is mentioned of Novartis Campus

ditto ETH Zurich opening research labs here.

- Art —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artclay (talk • contribs) 04:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

So, write something. But please use capitalization and punctuation. -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Chronological table

I removed the Chronological table section, which is in a space-hungry format and had not gotten past the 3rd century. I suggest it would be more appropriate to write a History of Basel article. The information in the table can be recovered in this diff. -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Notable people FROM Basel

I found these "notable people from Basel" aren't actually from Basel:

Erasmus (Rotterdam, the Netherlands; died in Basel), Andreas Vesalius (Brussels, Belgium; lived in Basel later in life), Albert Hofmann (Baden, Switzerland; later invented LSD in Basel), Daniel Bernoulli (Groningen, the Netherlands; did live most of his life in Basel from age 5)

The meaning of "from"? Perhaps it's easiest to keep it simple and let it mean "born there", otherwise multiple places can claim one person as being "from" there.

Perhaps the simplest solution is rename the section "notable residents of Basel". Any objections?

Evlshout (talk) 02:20, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I think "residents" is a good idea, because it would be far more informative: it would allow Erasmus and bring in people like Holbein, who was a citizen of Basel. qp10qp (talk) 16:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

English Wikipedia uses the phrase "people from NN" to refer to people who resided in a place for any significant amount of time, not just to people who were born in that place. This is what the categories called "People from NN" are meant to signify. But if you think many readers would interpret the section heading as referring to people who originated in Basel, then we could change it to "Notable residents of Basel." (All four of the people listed certainly qualify.) — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 17:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I looked at 15 random European non-capital cities, and found that listing famous people is actually quite rare. For the four that did, "notable people from XXX" was never used, so if we changed this section name it wouldn't be defying a wikipedia standard. Most were less ambiguous, referring to denizens (suggests particular privilege level), inhabitants (correct) or citizens (suggests legal status).
I'm sure tons of users won't interpret 'from' incorrectly, but reducing the proportion that does by making it less ambiguous can never be a bad idea. I might go ahead with it. Evlshout (talk) 06:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Basel or Basle?

The question keeps coming up of which of the two ways to spell the city's name in English — Basel or Basle — is the correct one. An earlier discussion reached consensus that "Basel" is more generally accepted today, while "Basle" is becoming less common. Neither spelling can be dismissed as incorrect, and people doing research on the city should search for information under both spellings.

It seems clear that the Basle spelling came to the English language via French, and Basel came from German. Basel is a German-speaking city, and its German name has been Basel at least since the city became Swiss in 1501. But Basel is also situated right on the border with France, and the French language has been important in Basel for as long as there has been a French language. In present-day French, the city's name is spelled Bâle, but 200 years ago it was often spelled Basle (for example, in the 1803 Act of Mediation imposed on Switzerland by Napoleon — (here's a link)). At that time, French had considerably more prestige in Europe than German, so it's not too surprising that English speakers adopted the French name for a German-speaking city on the border of France.

A third variant spelling is Basil, but this occurs (AFAIK) only in one source from 1798.

As to pronouncing the name, Basel is always /ˈbɑːzəl/, but it seems likely that Basle can be either /bɑːl/ (like the French Bâle) or /ˈbeɪzl̩/ or /ˈbeɪsl̩/ (like the British/Commonwealth pronunciation of Basil). Probably it's also pronounced /ˈbɑːzəl/ (like Basel). Printed reliable sources on pronunciation will probably be hard to come by. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 19:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Basel is definitely more common, Basle is increasingly less common. As anecdotal proof, EasyJet fly to Basel, and have always done so. British Airways used to fly to Basle a few years ago, and their website didn't recognise Basel if you typed it in, but now they also fly to Basel (see [2]). Some airport departure boards in the UK list "Basel", some "Basle", but that depends on the airport, not the airline.
The usual pronunciation is the German one ("Bah-zel") English-speaking aircraft cabin crews usually use the French pronunciation ("Baal"), but I think that is because Basel airport air traffic control is the responsibility of the French. They also annoyingly play the French recording of the safety announcements, not the German one. They claim they do this because the airport is in France, even though the city, and most of the passengers, are German speaking. TiffaF (talk) 08:25, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Modern Latin

"Regio TriRhena". Seriously? They have introduced camel case into Latin? It looks dumb in Latin.
Sorry, Varlaam (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

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Amtsprache: German

The official language (Amtssprache) of Basel is German. This is true for both, the city of Basel as well as the canton, since they share the government and administration. -- ZH8000 (talk) 11:01, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

noteable people

Just to fulfill the formal requirement for the deletion of Ana Ivanovic as a notable person of Basel:

  • First and final : We cannot list every inhabitant of Basel: She was neither born, nor grew up, nor died in Basel. Nor did she any good to Basel.

Besides:

  • She is not known to anybody in Basel outside of her sport.
  • There are literally thousands of Basler who would suit to this list many times before her.
  • There is no consensus about the people on this list, there was just nobody who took care about it so far.
  • User:Fyunck(click) must provide evidence about the notability of this tennis player with an undisbutably notable relation to Basel (besides living here) before putting her back on the list.
  • I hope this edit-war by Fyunck(click) will end for now. She only expresses her very private, clearly non-WP:NPOV interests with this listing.

-- ZH8000 (talk) 23:30, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

We do not put the cart before the horse. There is longstanding consensus for Ana Ivanovic being a notable person from Basel. It was even sourced as such before it was removed by ZH8000 with disruptive editing. Since she has longstanding consensus to being listed in this article the burden of removal falls on ZH8000 to convince others that she is not worthy to be listed. She isn't just a tennis player, she is one of the most popular and well known tennis players in the entire world, not just Basel. I'm not sure why ZH8000 wants to go against protocol and remove before talking, but that isn't kosher in my book. She is has also been the UNICEF National Ambassador for Serbia, Nominated for U.S. Secretary of State’s 2007 International Women of Courage Award, AIPS Women’s Tennis Player of the Year 2008, German Tennis Magazine Michael Westphal Award 2008, Sony Ericsson WTA Tour Humanitarian Award 2009 etc... The category is "Notable people born or resident in Basel", not what have they done for basel. Goodness. Roger Federer was born there but didn't grow up in Basel. He moved all over the creation. But he's famous. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:55, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
The previously given link by Fyunck is not relevant, since it is the website of a jewlery fair in Basel with a world-wide audiance (the world's largest I suspect). Again, there is no evidence that Ivaniovic has any notable relation to Basel. -- ZH8000 (talk) 00:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Once again, please stop being childish by adding futile fact templates (you simply can find the requested information in the articles about the respective person), just because you lost any arguments. Bahaving like a pupil does not improve your position. Hey, have a cold shower and just accept it. To the sake of everybody else. -- ZH8000 (talk) 04:31, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Besides: Adolf Busch lived in Basel from 1927-1939 and founded its own orchester there, and had a strong influance on the cultural life in Basel. He was also the teacher of Yehudi Menuhin. I think, this is more than notable enough. – BUT, this is totally irrelevant about your original complaint about the deletion of Ana Ivanovic!!! Don't you think so as well, do you? It much rather looks like a (as I said, a very childish) "counter-strike". Well, if you really need this, then play it, but I will not take part. -- ZH8000 (talk) 04:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, this is the type of ridiculous stuff I expected and the reason an administrator has been called to take a look. It is irrelevant to the incorrect wiki protocol you are using with notable personality Ana Ivanovic. It's a separate issue. Two links were red links, other links had no Basel, and this guy was German, ran from Hitler to Switzerland and then went to the US for the rest of his life. Hardly Basel-worthy per your Ivanovic arguments. But again it's why I asked for more opinions the proper way as opposed to the improper way. I've left it in the administrator's hands. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, I simply can not follow your arguments. First of all, you are still missing to provide the relation of your tennis player with Basel. BUT, now, after you seamingly cannot provide it, you turned to Adolf Busch, who spent 12 years in Basel and had a immanent and strong implication on the cultural life of this city. I suspect you would like to divert from your loosing arguments. Nevertheless, the notability of Adolf Busch is clearly given; no doubt about this. But I would advise you to thoroughly focus on your first task, which is still totally unresolved (sic!). Besides: I get tred to tell you the same things over and over again. -- ZH8000 (talk) 05:55, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Sources were given despite your bullying-manner of not asking for sources but rather eliminating her from the article. This is not wiki protocol. I could have linked even more that it's her "home-away-from home" when she's not traveling. I also get tiring of telling you to follow the rules which you seem to disregard at will. After your non-rule-following I decided to take a look at all the people listed who are also very loosely related to Basel... all with no sources mind you! But At least some of them have minimal sourcing in their own articles. Busch was stuck there during the early Hitler years and soon migrated to the US. It is not clear how much he meant to Basel. But you'll note... I didn't remove anyone against wikipedia protocol as you did. I asked for citations to make sure these people really qualified. That's the way it's done around here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:11, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Pardon-me, but for the forth time now: Your source(s) are invalid. And who is Musch?? And what does Hitler have to do with Basel and Ivanovic??? Are you trying to claim that Hitler lived in Basel or what?? I suspect you are messing up a lot of things. -- ZH8000 (talk) 06:41, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

You simply can't be this clueless on the situation. And picking on your own misspelling?... bushleague my friend. This is why administrative help is on the way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Ah, now I get you: you want to be funny, don't you? Well, you are indeed really funny, however in a very strange way. And let me tell you that you are not supposed to repeat my type errors. Or is it, because you do not really know about whom you are talking about? More and more mysteries, the more you write! But honestly, now, I still wonder, why you mention Hitler and your tennis player with respect to Basel???? -- ZH8000 (talk) 08:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
I went by the guy's wiki article since that was the only source we have to go by. It suggests Basel was a pitstop from evading Hitler on his way to the US. Nothing more. If there is more then it needs to be sourced... heck some were even red-linked so I added citations needed tags. And you haven't convinced me that many are more notable than Ivanovic is. She also should have had a citation needed tag added rather than complete removal. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
  • I have temporarily protected the article due to the disruptive editing taking place. As soon as the parties involved agree an appropriate course of action to resolve the dispute, and also commit to stop edit warring, the protection will be lifted. The guidelines regarding lists of notable people are at: WP:NLIST, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Embedded_lists#Size, and WP:Source list. To summarise, we require that people added to a notable people section are in themselves notable (and generally, a Wikipedia article on that person indicates that notability has been met), and that they are demonstrably linked to the article topic in a meaningful way, and this is supported by a reliable source. The advice is that the section explains the connection to the article rather than merely list their name. If the number of people to be mentioned is particularly long then consideration should be given to splitting out that section into a standalone article or list article. If the number of people is particularly long, but not long enough to justify a standalone article, then an introductory paragraph followed by a bulleted list is acceptable. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
    Hmmm... so your link to NLIST says that each and every individual in any such list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group. And I had only asked for a handful to be sourced because their wiki articles (or lack thereof) didn't detail Basel in any significant way. Less so than Ivanovic as a matter of fact. Instead we have no Ivanovic and no sources as protected, because I had stopped editing and let the last edits stand. I guess that's how it works. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes, best practise is that all those mentioned in a notable people section should be both appropriately sourced, and an indication given of why they are linked to the article. To be fair, there are many articles which do not follow best practise, and so people may not always be aware of our guidelines. However, when there is a dispute, the dispute is resolved by reference to the guidelines, and by all parties agreeing to follow them. As soon as both of you agree to follow the guidelines and write up the notable people section appropriately I will unlock the article. Generally what I do in these cases is put the name of each person and the article subject into Google and Google Books, and see what turns up. On Ana Ivanovic I found [3], [4], [5], [6], and this [7] which gives details of when and why she moved to Basel, and also that as well a home in Basel she has a flat in Belgrade. Initially I felt the mentions were trivial, but the Daily Mirror and this book give details of her moving to Basel to be with her new manager who funded her development, so the place does take on a significance. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:10, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
@Silktorq - My first question would be, don't most editors handle it, that if the list person is linked to a wikipedia article, and that article is well sourced (in this case sourced to Basel) that it really isn't needed to source them again? One click on the person's name and they have all the sources they need. But if the persons wiki article has no sourcing on the name in question, that we need a legitimate source to include them in the list? That's the way I was handling it and it was reverted. Had I put a "citation needed" for each person in the list it would have been reverted even faster. Ivanovic has those links you gave on her own wikipedia article.
My second question is, what really should constitute "being from Basel" in a list? These lists are all over the place. Does a person living there a few years lock them in? Do they have to accomplish something notable while living there? I can see that being born there pretty much makes you a lock and living there half your life should also. I assume we have to be flexible depending on the place? If you're from London, to stop a list from being 4000 miles long, you'd need to be beyond notable at the top of your field to make the list and not to have only lived there a couple years. If it's Beatty Nevada, if you're famous and stopped to fill up your gas tank you might qualify. Basel with 170,000 people is somewhere in between but on the lower end. Do people who were born somewhere else, died somewhere else, did 90% of their notable accomplishments somewhere else, belong on this list? Do mathematicians and musicians rank higher on an inclusion list than tennis players? These are things that perplex me and why I wanted talk before removal. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:33, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


Pre-remark 1: Finally, I found some small spot to come back to this – for me(!) – total waste of time. Why? Because all facts have been on the table just from the beginning. IMO, they just have been interpreted the wrong, too narrow-minded way.
Pre-remark 2: I really do NOT appreciate to waste my time for futile, already "lost" discussions, just because some authors can not or are not willing do to do their (research) home work seriously, profoundly, and/or capable enough. Life is just too precious to waste it in such overly extended (sic!), circular, not-progressing "discussions".
Pre-remark 3: I do appreciate the involvement of SilkTork, since it seems it gives the discussion at least some new content. So we left the circular, laborious character of the previous dicsussion.
Therefore, let me clarify and summarize:
  1. SilkTork was able to indicate (with second hand sources, such as tabloid press, however) that Ivanovic spent some time in Basel.
  2. However, this is not the current state like a first hand source has been stating the whole time: Ivanovic' very own home page: She lives in Berne, not Basel! (sic!)
  3. So we can conclude, Ivanovic spent some time in Basel, but we are not sure that she was even a residence here (remark: in Switzerland you are required to register at the local authority in order to reside legally at a place! Except as a tourist for less than three months), and for how long. This evidence is still missing.
  4. And I may add that Ivanovic probably only spent a very short time frame in Basel, or to quote Fyunck herself: "It suggests Basel was a pitstop" to her (sic!), since it was hardly noticed by the local people; of course, this time attributed to Ivanovic instead to Busch (who indeed spent the exact same time in Basel (he even became Swiss) as he spent in USA, namely 12 years ... oh, I am sorry, I am deviating, Busch is another case, to be discussed seperately).
  5. Further, as I also already made very clear right from the beginning, and is inherently obvious to anyone who already tried to seriously decide who should be listed on such a notable people list, since there are always many, many more potential candidates than to be listed, that there must be a selection. And this selection can not simply be based on a single combination of being prominent and resident, since this still leads to too many candidates. So we need futher criteria.
  6. So, if we agree on this previous obvious conclusion, we have to find additional criteria. I already made a "proposal", a very conclusive one, IMHO, namely the criteria for a strong local impact on Basel. I am quite sure you agree with this, otherwise such a list would be simply futile and useless with regards to an article about a city or a region; here: Basel. In fact, everybody on the given list (at least inherently, I swear!) indeed has this strong impact! BUT, be careful, just because this impact has not (yet) been documented on ENGLISH (or any) WP does not mean it does not exist!! Please thoroughly and considerably take this into account. – Actually, I think that this is one main reason why the previous discussion easily became circular and futile.
  7. And therefore, the given list (most items) orginally comes from the GERMAN WP. Eventually, because they speak German in Basel!? ;-))
  8. Indeed, most (indeed almsot all) notable people lists I checked so far on WP, in many different languages, do actually miss the requirement for sources. Not surprisingly, since for the contributers of WP arcticles in the local language the listing often is inherently obvious (with very few, truly disputable exceptions, of course).
  9. In fact, Ivanovic has never been listed on the German Basel WP article!!! Not even on the much longer extended list!!!! Though this is not a "proof" to deny her listing, not at all, but it is at least a very strong indication that for the local audience of Basel the still disputed residence of Ivanovic in Basel has been nothing less than unimportant!
  10. Finally, long story short meaning: I still miss the indication of Ivanovic' strong impact on Basel in order to be listed – besides the evidence that she indeed was a legally registered resident (and for how long).
  11. Result: As long as Fyunck (or anybody else) is not able to provide the requested and absolutely necessary evidence of impact on Basel, I will not agree to include Ivanovic.
Post-remark: Is it indeed necessary to produce such a huge work of writing in order to decide about such a simple tasks such as to list or not to list somebody's name!?? I truly think there is indeed much more important work to be done on WP, e.g. to resolve numerous errors and faults, than such a minor, but nevertheless troublesome issue. – IMHO, this is an incredibly huge burdensome and frustrating overhead, and even more important, also a substantial reason why I think WP is constantly loosing authors – especially sufficiently enough educated ones. (sic!) -- ZH8000 (talk) 18:58, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
@SilkTork - My first question would be, don't most editors handle it, that if the list person is linked to a wikipedia article, and that article is well sourced (in this case sourced to Basel) that it really isn't needed to source them again? One click on the person's name and they have all the sources they need. But if the persons wiki article has no sourcing on the name in question, that we need a legitimate source to include them in the list? That's the way I was handling it and it was reverted. Had I put a "citation needed" for each person in the list it would have been reverted even faster. Ivanovic has those links you gave on her own wikipedia article.
My second question is, what really should constitute "being from Basel" in a list? These lists are all over the place. Does a person living there a few years lock them in? Do they have to accomplish something notable while living there? I can see that being born there pretty much makes you a lock and living there half your life should also. I assume we have to be flexible depending on the place? If you're from London, to stop a list from being 4000 miles long, you'd need to be beyond notable at the top of your field to make the list and not to have only lived there a couple years. If it's Beatty Nevada, if you're famous and stopped to fill up your gas tank you might qualify. Basel with 170,000 people is somewhere in between but on the lower end. Do people who were born somewhere else, died somewhere else, did 90% of their notable accomplishments somewhere else, belong on this list? Do mathematicians and musicians rank higher on an inclusion list than tennis players? These are things that perplex me and why I wanted talk before removal. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:33, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
LOL, you are still – or again? – very "funny". BTW: Would you mind to add your contribtion to this talk subsequently!
First answer: obviously no! Which WP policy does say so? The fundamental opposite is true: WP:CIRCULAR.
Second answer:
  • "I can see that being born there pretty much makes you a lock and living there half your life should also.": Your assumption is very wrong. Nobody is listed just because of this criteria and it is not exclusive, neither.
  • "I assume we have to be flexible depending on the place?": No, of course not. What stupid idea would that be? Again, all listed person on the given list does more than clearly fulfill "my" – or better: inherent – criteria for strong impact on Basel. And no, "from Basel" does not mean you must be born there, but it means (again, I keep repeating myself in this maledicted discussion ... sigh!) you can not just be prominent and be resident to be listed. This, again, is clearly, even though perhaps inherently given by the given list.
  • "Do mathematicians and musicians rank higher on an inclusion list than tennis players?": If their impact was strong enough, yes of course.
  • "These are things that perplex me and why I wanted talk before removal.": Evidently (sigh!). But I do not have the idea to be responsible for this limitation!
And last, but not least ... "... and that article is well sourced (in this case sourced to Basel) that it really isn't needed to source them again?...Ivanovic has those links you gave on her own wikipedia article.": It is indeed very illuminative and revealing the fact that you yourself added respective short statements about Basel (accompanied with just one rather questionable second hand citation) to Ivanovic' article just few hours ago (15 March 09-59 UTC), in other word in the middle of this current discusssion!!! Before, there was not a single remark about Basel to be found in Ivanovic' article. LOL
The rest of your statements are more than bewildering, to say the least.
For me, this discussion came to an end, since you are not able to provide my requested criteria. Conclusion: Ivanovic stays off the list. -- ZH8000 (talk) 21:38, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the intransigence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:20, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@ZH8000 - please stop moving my posts and please stop vandalizing my talk page. If @SilkTork: or another administrator doesn't stop you this will go to a whole different level. I will ask nicely....Please Move Back My Post. I also see you deleted my post here. Please put that back also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the contribution history of the article, and I am not clear on why ZH8000 moved Fyunck's text. We use indentation to make it clear who we are responding to. We can and do place our talkpage comments in the relevant place - that is usually just under the comment to which we are responding, and indent it one step further in. See WP:THREAD. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • ZH8000 makes some good points about Ivanovic. The sources placing her in Basel are out of date. Indeed, even Berne may be out of date, as sources from Oct 2015 suggested that she was thinking of moving from Berne to Bolton in the UK: [8], [9] - though it's not clear if this took place. ZH8000 also makes a valid point about how many people should be included in a notable people section. That is generally down to editorial judgement, bearing in mind that if the section gets very big, it can be split off into a standalone list article, such as these Category:Lists of people by city. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:53, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Fyunck asks if a link to a Wikipedia article is adequate sourcing. No, it is not, per WP:WPNOTRS. We do not regard Wikipedia as a reliable source. We need an inline source that places the person in the context of the article subject. If the article on the person states the relationship with the city, and that statement is sourced, then you can copy the statement and the source over to the city article, making an edit summary saying what you are doing, and linking to the Wikipedia article from where you copied the text and source. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:53, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
    There may be some confusion on this. I realize that wikipedia is not a reliable source. But we also don't source every single item in an article. We tend to source anything that could be reasonably challenged. If we have names linked in a list, and those names link back to an actual article that talks about the reason they are on that list to begin with (and they are sourced in the person's article), do we really need to have a source listed at all in the list? I don't think it would be reasonably challenged. Especially if the name linked in the list, linked back to the actual section on the person's biography article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
You may have missed the links I gave above. WP:NLIST summaries the main points, and it's worth clicking on that link and reading that guideline carefully, and then referring to it when talking about or editing sections involving notable people, until you are familiar with it, and then checking back now and again (say once a year) to see what has changed. That will save folks like me having to repeat the advice. You need to have an inline citation to a reliable source that establishes each individual's connection to the city. Wikipedia is not classed as a reliable source, so citing Wikipedia is not acceptable, especially in a vague indirect manner such as linking to the Wikipedia article. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
  • As for her not living in Basil now... I think that's pretty much a fact. But she reached the height of her career while living in Basel, reaching the finals of the Australian Open and French Open, and then winning the French Open. That's really no different than many others on the list who did the same thing... born elsewhere, stayed in Basel for awhile, and then moved elsewhere. Why single Ivanovic out? If she goes then so should others with the same type of criteria. And remember, my disgust with this situation was not that Ivanovic and others might get removed... it was that it wasn't being discussed here "BEFORE" removing them. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:31, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Ivanovic was mentioned above at the start of this dispute, so I simply used her as an example of what I do when looking for reliable sources to confirm a connection. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Full protection

This article has been fully-protected. A fully protected page can be edited only by administrators. The protection may be for a specified time or may be indefinite. Modifications to a fully protected page can be proposed on the talk page for discussion. Administrators can make changes to the protected article reflecting consensus. Placing the {{Edit protected}} template on the talk page will draw the attention of administrators for implementing uncontroversial changes. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Article is unlocked as I have moved the contentious section to this talkpage. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


Contentious section

The notable people section is contentious, unsourced, and does not comply with Wikipedia guidelines. As there has been editing warring over the section which resulted in the article being locked down, I am moving the section here. Information on the individuals on the list can be moved back into the article when the information is appropriately sourced, and there is adequate information linking the individual to Basel, and there is consensus that information on the individual would be acceptable to be placed in the article. See WP:Source list, WP:LISTCRITERIA, WP:NLIST, and WP:ListFormat for guidance and advice on dealing with such sections. Moving any individual back into a notable people section without appropriate sourcing given the recent behaviour here might be considered disruptive editing. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi SilkTork, I see your valid intention and understand your motivation. But by all due respect, I think you "pour out the baby with the bath water" (Das Kinde mit dem Bade ausschütten) as we say in German, i.e. that it is far from practical. Why?
  1. I never saw just one single notable people list on any WP which fully fulfills the formal requirements about justified reasons to be listed. It usually is also based on "common sense".
  2. This is totally understandably, since to prove that somebody is from a certain place is one, rather easy thing, but to "prove" that a person is selectable for such a list is another thing. Not impossible, not at all, but at least very burdonsome, especially if it has to be done for every single entry. And especially of a larger list such as the one at hand.
  3. Therefore, the reality on WP shows, that such lists are a result of a combination of tacitly shared and commonly agreed on knowledge/perception.
  4. So it is no surprise that the practical procedure with respect to notebale people lists is not to explicitly prove every single entry, but rather much more pracmatically to question questionable listings of persons in a grey zone. A good negative example is Ivanovic, even though she is a world-wide known person in women tennis, and even though she probably lived for a brief period in Basel, she is not to be listed, since she has no other public relationship to Basel. Besides that she does not have any reputation with Basel (did she pay taxes? Well, we don't know ;-). This is quite the opposite to everybody else on this list, even though, actually most of the time (sic!), this is not made explicit, but based on the commonly shared knowledge by WP editors with a seamingly strong relationship to Basel, of course.
  5. And therefore, it is also no surpise that editors comfortable with the local public life are much much easier to convince about a potential listing or its denial. So it is hardly a surprise that the given list originates as a derivative from the German WP article.
  6. And as we can easily say, Ivanovic was never listed on the de:Basel list, not even on the much longer extended list of about 500 entries. But, this I already mentioned above in the previous discussion.
So, I would prefer and strongly acknowledge if we could return to the previous, usually practicable procedure and stop this futile and extremely burdonsome approach. I am looking forward to your opinion. Regards. -- ZH8000 (talk) 14:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Most articles on Wikipedia do not follow guidelines - indeed, many older articles are completely unsourced (over 200,000), something we do not allow with newly created articles. We do not use articles that don't follow guidelines as examples of good practice. Yes, other stuff exists, but we only use the good stuff as examples to copy, not the bad stuff. We don't point to the 2000,000 unsourced articles and say - look, they have no sources, so why are you insisting we have sources in this one. When we come upon bad spelling, contentious unsourced material, badly formatted articles, etc, we set about correcting them if we have the time and inclination. Sometimes, yes, we ignore the flaws. Indeed, most of us ignore the flaws more than fix them. Such is life. But when our attention is drawn to a problem - as happened here, we set about to resolve the issue.
We are encouraged to remove unsourced or poorly sourced material (particularly by Jimbo Wales who has made an issue of it several times - see Wikipedia:No_reliable_sources,_no_verifiability,_no_article#Jimbo_Wales_agrees. When that material concerns living people, it becomes policy to remove it per WP:BLPREMOVE. Moving contentious unsourced material to the talkpage of an article, particularly when the material is a disputed list, is one way of dealing with the issue that keeps the material active for the editors, but no longer in mainspace where it would be problematic.
I hope you will take this opportunity to edit and improve the list. SilkTork ✔Tea time 00:27, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Notable people

[[File:Hermann Hesse 2.jpg|thumb|Hermann Hesse]] [[File:Portrait of Friedrich Nietzsche.jpg|thumb|Friedrich Nietzsche, professor at the University of Basel]] [[File:Rudolf Serkin 1962d.jpg|thumb|Rudolf Serkin]]

Wow, user Funckychick does STILL not get it: it's not about birth or death in first hand, it's about somebody's implication on Basel's life and/or history. And any edcuated person about Basel's history will easily comply with given list (compare with other languages for a very cheap check), except for Ivanovic, that the listed people are not disputable, not the slightest. Except for you (Funkychick) wanna make a huge fuss out of it. And I do not! I won't discuss this any time more; this is just stupid burdensome distracting behavior. -- ZH8000 (talk) 13:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
So let me get a grip on this new criteria. In your opinion someone can be born in Basil and live their childhood there, or they can move there when old to retire for 20 years, and not make this list unless their notable accomplishment actually happened in the soil of the city of Basel. So Federer is off the list since he was only born there... he didn't even grow up in Basel... he just happened to be born there. Without you discussing this anymore it'll be easier to figure this out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

controversial entities moved here

While sourcing I moved controversial Basel people into this section so they don't get put in the general population that can be added back into the article.

  • Rudolf Bernhard (1901–1962), Swiss actor, comedian, radio personality, stage and film actor, born and grew up in Basel.
Per the latest "Federer rule" this guy will have to be looked at closer. He was born in Basel and was an optician in Basel, but after his military service he moved away and became famous and notable in Zurich, married in Zurich, founded a theatre in Zurich, and died in Zurich. This would be a much easier list to maintain if it was simply born in Basel, or died in Basel, or was a notable person while living in Basel. Much less subjective imho. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Emil Beurmann (1862-1951), Swiss writer and poet and painter from Basel.
Could really find nothing on this person aside from other wikis, blogs and sef-published stuff, so I've no idea if they are even notable let alone doing it in Basel. The wikipedia article is woeful and has had a warning about it up there for 7 years. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:37, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
Ref'd but in the same category as Ivanovic. Not born in Basel, didn't die in Basel, and of his 61 years of life only 12 were spent living in Basel. His greatest accomplishments were not during his Basel years (as opposed to Ivanovic). Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
  • John Calvin (1509–1564), French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation.
Another person in the Ana Ivanovic category of living mainly somewhere else... he was actually thrown out of Basel. As I said there will be many of these persons that will need to be deleted if we use the same criteria as Ivanovic. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
This listing of Ivanovic not justified, despite the links. The links do not prove that she has any other relation to Basel than her shert-term "visiting" residence, which is still not proved, neither. Not even her time of residence. First link could actually not be worse: A british-based site about the largest clock and jewlery fair on the world a minor fashion show (misleading by misusing an almost identical brand like BaselWorld, the largest clock and jewlery fair on the world) taking place in Basel addressed to a questionable audience is hardly of substance and has a totally different aim, definitely not accurancy: They even claim that Ivanovic was born in Basel (LOL!). There is nothing to add to this. Finally, Blick is the tabloid no. 1 in Switzerland and says nothing more than that she may be from Basel - qed - -- ZH8000 (talk) 13:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
If others agree that a notable person who reaches the pinnacle of their profession while living in Basel, but was not born or did not die in Basel, does not belong on this list... then I can live with that. But I fear it will exclude many others on this list. She will not be excluded just because she's a tennis player and not a violinist. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Roger Federer (1981), Swiss tennis player, born in Binnigen (BL).
since I was told that just being born in Basel doesn't qualify. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

--- ---

  1. ^ "Swissinfo: Sibel Arslan defied the media scolding". Retrieved 19 March 2016.
  2. ^ "Werner Arber: Bobel Prize Bio". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  3. ^ "Theresia Project Bio". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  4. ^ "Karl Barth: courageous theologian". Retrieved 5 May 2016.
  5. ^ "Encyclopedia Britannica biography". Retrieved 6 May 2016.
  6. ^ "Daniel Bernoulli at Famous Scientists". Retrieved 6 May 2016.
  7. ^ "Science World biography". Retrieved 6 May 2016.
  8. ^ "Jacob Bernoulli at Encyclopedia Britannica". Retrieved 6 May 2016.
  9. ^ "Johann Bernoulli at Famous Mathematicians". Retrieved 6 May 2016.
  10. ^ "Men and Music". Retrieved 5 May 2016.
  11. ^ "10 most popular people born in Basel". Retrieved 14 March 2016.
  12. ^ "Schone Anna Ivanovic". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  13. ^ "Anna Ivanovic on Swiss bliss". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  14. ^ "Anna Ivanovic photo shoot". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  15. ^ "Swiss News: Ana Ivanovic". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  16. ^ "Daily Mail: Ana Ivanovic's rags to riches story". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
  17. ^ "The Tennis Times: Ivanovic bio". Retrieved 20 March 2016.
This list still needs to be sourced... I think I'm the only one who did any! But it stays out until they are sourced as was implied by administrator @SilkTork:. Don't go trying to slip the list back in without sourcing and consensus as was told to us "Moving any individual back into a notable people section without appropriate sourcing given the recent behaviour here might be considered disruptive editing." Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:29, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Fyunck. Yes, putting unsourced material back into the article is unacceptable. It's OK to put individuals back in as long as they are sourced - it doesn't have to be the whole list. But sourcing a few, and then putting them all back in, unsourced as well, is not OK. And it doesn't matter if it's a few months or few years down the line, we don't want unsourced lists of people in Wikipedia articles. Waiting a period of time doesn't make it acceptable. Reliable sources make it acceptable. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:32, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes @SilkTork:, as you pointed out if individuals are sourced and aren't contested (as 3 are now), then they can go back. Unfortunately the editor has now once again defied that by re-added the list for the second time in less than 24 hours. Not sure what to do here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:42, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
A warning has been issued. SilkTork ✔Tea time 13:39, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Hatnote

move from my personal talk page -- ZH8000 (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC) Hello. Regarding your edit summary at Basel: Of course I checked before I removed it; I'm usually very careful about disambiguation. Why do you think this extra hatnote is needed? It seems to me that anyone taking the trouble to write Bâle with the diacritic on English Wikipedia knows exactly what they want. It's very unlikely they would do that in the first place ("Bâle" averages less than one hit per day, most of which must come from incoming links, all of which appear to be correct), but if they did, what on the Bale disambiguation page could they possibly be confusing with "Bâle"? To me, it seems like unnecessary cruft. Station1 (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

First of all, this message does not belong to my personal talk page.
Secondly, you make too much assumptions. And all the alternatives to your assumptions exactly are the answer to your question. Stop thinking from your point of view only. -- ZH8000 (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
The extraneous hatnote is not of great importance, not really worth other editors' attention. I was more concerned with your mistaken assumption in your edit summary that I did not "check it before you remove it." You probably don't realize that comments like that and "Stop thinking from your point of view only" can be viewed as mildly insulting to your fellow editors; I hope that wasn't your intention. These are personal issues, which is why I used your talk page. I don't believe I made any assumptions about the necessity of the hatnote. I pointed out facts: Bâle averages less than one hit per day, which is extremely low (Basel gets ~1500 hits/day). Since some of those hits come from correct wikilinks (and bots), the number of people typing in the word must be even lower. You can see for yourself by clicking "page view statistics" and "what links here". It's also a fact that nothing on Bale can be spelled as the French word ""Bâle". So it is reasonable to conclude that the hatnote is virtually never used, but if you still think it's useful, it's not a big deal. Station1 (talk) 16:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

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Inaccurate population

The article suggests that the number of around 537'000 inhabitants refers to the entire tri-national urban area, i.e. in Switzerland, Germany and France. However, this number includes the Swiss part only. The total number of inhabitants for the trinational urban area is around 830'000, according to the Federal Statistics Office of Switzerland. (The Basel Metropolitan Area, as identified by the Federal Urban Planning Agency, is estimated at around 1,3/1,4 million inhabitants.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.198.10.235 (talk) 14:10, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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Questionable source for exuberant text

The text "Basel is commonly considered to be the cultural capital of Switzerland.[1]" uses a questionable source and is therefore to be removed WP:QS. -- ZH8000 (talk) 10:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Now it's worse still. "Basel is Switzerland's cultural capital". Please can a stop be put to this one "Basel nationalist" (for want of a better term). 2.25.194.23 (talk) 18:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.schweizerdeutsch-lernen.ch/blog/die-stadt-basel/

economique ranking

As the editor sdnegel already stated in response to changes by TI1880 in one of his change summaries: "Re-did an edit to correct a mistake that was reverted without explanation: The reference to the size of Basel's economy is conflicting. When referring to Basel's GDP per capita the figure reflects the GDP per capita of the canton, not the city. The statistique suisse does not publish the GDP per municipality, only by canton, and it confirms Basel's ranking. But the same statistics office places the canton of Basel as 7th in the country. The previous reference was a clear example of cherry-picking.".

And: you (TI1880) are wrong to compare at the same time Swiss economies with (the referenced) figures including (French and German) areas outside of Switzerland.

Further: This article is about the city of Basel, not the canton, but the figures are cantonal figures and do not belong here. -- ZH8000 (talk) 10:41, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

ZH8000 There are two issues with this logic. One is that the source that you are quoting is absolutely not reliable. The website you refer to is an article from a language academy that talks about the zoos, the museums and the carnival. Where is this information coming from considering that the official statistics office of Switzerland does not publish GDP per municipality? how can this be seriously trustworthy for an opening statement in the wikipedia page of a major city?
The second issue is that, even if taken into account, one would be comparing apples with oranges. If we take Basel's metropolitan area to calculate the size of its economy, then you should do the same with every metropolitan area of the country, including Zurich, Bern, Geneva, Lausanne etc. -- Sdnegel (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC+1)
Sdnegel You were probably addressing user TI1880, not me. You are repeating my opinion. ;-) -- ZH8000 (talk) 13:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Basle not Basel in British English

'Basle' is, strictly speaking, still the UK spelling (pronounced "Baarl", an anglicised version of the French 'Bâle'). Why is it only the German spelling which is used in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:2C1B:51A0:92C:FE29:D36C:6AF7 (talk) 17:01, 2 November 2018 (UTC) Example, September 2011: "Nicki Grihault offers an essential cultural guide to Basle, a Swiss city at the crossroads of three countries."

The alternative spelling Basle is mentioned in the first sentence. Basel is used in the body mostly for consistency. It's also the more usual spelling in American English. Station1 (talk) 19:16, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Actually, there is a catch. According to Google Trends, the use of the German spelling Basel is much more common in searches from the United Kingdom although there are more searches for the anglicised Basle from the UK than the United States.[1][2] However, there is another catch in which the French pronunciation is still common in the UK among my parents' generation although the German language has phonetic spelling. Please see my contribution in Talk:Basel#Is there a justification for preserving the "Basle" spelling? for more information. Tk420 (talk) 14:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Basel vs Basle (United Kingdom last 12 months)". Google Trends. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  2. ^ "Basel vs Basle (United States past 12 months)". Google Trends. Retrieved 29 May 2022.

Is there a justification for preserving the "Basle" spelling?

I live in Basel — nobody refers to the city as "Basle". In German, it is referred to as Basel. In French, as Bâle. English speakers living in Basel exclusively use "Basel". The local and federal governments never use "Basle" — a Google search for «"basle" site:bs.ch» yields no recent results.

What is the justification for preserving the "Basle" spelling prominently in the article, aside from as a historical factoid? I propose to remove the "Basle" spelling from the first paragraph and infobox.

FloralContributor8192 (talk) 10:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I have made this change, and welcome further discussion here.

FloralContributor8192 (talk) 11:01, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

It has occurred to me that preferences for the name of the city might vary with dialect and demographic. Speaking as a millennial native speaker of British English from the West Midlands region of England, I can confirm that the French pronunciation ("bahl") appears to be common among my parents' generation although searches for the city by its German spelling are much more common than searches for it by the anglicised Basle although there are more searches for Basle from the United Kingdom than the United States according to Google Trends both over the past year and since 2004.[1][2] This resistance to the change in pronunciation but not necessarily spelling is unsurprising considering there is a similar situation for place names in north and west Wales in which the anglicised spellings for places like Porthmadog and Conwy (Portmadoc and Conway respectively) were officially dropped in the late 20th century although the anglicised pronunciations are still common especially among older generations and outside those areas despite the Welsh language having phonetic spelling and the Welsh spellings for those places gaining universal acceptance. In trying to determine the most common spelling for the Swiss city by the British media, the BBC appears to be favourable towards the anglicised Basle for the city recommending the use of an established anglicisation for place names if there is one but prefers the German Basel for the city's sports teams.[3] [4] However, there are also sections of the press that use the German spelling such as the left leaning compact The Guardian which use the German Basel for the city.[5]

Considering the city is still known as Basle in a section of the English-speaking World, although Basel is the most common form as per WP:COMMONNAME, I would recommend including Basle in the introduction, including the pronunciation, and the infobox to let readers know they have found what they are looking for especially as this is the practise in Encyclopaedia Britannica[6] and considering that it has been argued that Basle is still common in the UK in previous discussions in this talk page's archive. Tk420 (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2022 (UTC)-edited

Basle is the correct spelling in English. Borrowed from French. We also use the French spellings for Berne and Lucerne. Duh. 99.228.43.133 (talk) 00:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Basel vs Basle (United Kingdom since 2004)". Google Trends. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  2. ^ "Basel vs Basle (United States since 2004)". Google Trends. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  3. ^ "How to say Basel/Bâle/Basle/Basilea". BBC News. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  4. ^ "Basle air crash: Memorial service marks 40th anniversary". BBC News. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  5. ^ "Rail route of the month: Basel to Locarno, the slow Swiss Alps classic". The Guardian. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
  6. ^ "Basel Switzerland". Encyclopaedia Britannica. Retrieved 29 May 2022.
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