Talk:Yahya Sinwar
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Duplicate section
The paragraph: << Born in the Khan Yunis refugee camp in Egyptian-ruled Gaza in 1962, his family was expelled or fled from Al-Majdal Asqalan (Ashkelon) during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. He finished his studies at the Islamic University of Gaza where he received a bachelor's degree in Arabic Studies.
>> is literally repeated in the Early Life section. Someone should probably delete it from the article's introduction. Ranieri001 (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2024
The opening sentence of the third paragraph is hard to read. I propose the following rewording, which does not change the factual information but makes it easier for the reader to parse. The current wording is:
- "For orchestrating the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians he considered to be collaborators in 1989, he was sentenced to four life sentences by Israel, of which he served 22 years until his release among 1,026 others in a 2011 prisoner exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit."
I suggest:
- "In 1982, Sinwar orchestrated the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians he considered to be collaborators. He was sentenced to four life sentences by Israel. He served 22 years until he and 1,026 others were released in 2011 in exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit."
Thanks, Opolito (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- The wording is currently even more confusing. I hope it gets fixed soon. Seaporbs (talk) 12:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Last edit
@האופה: "is thought" refers to the location, while the human shield claim is indeed still stated in WP voice. Plus you have only added one theory and ignored the two rest. The very existence of three theories is indicative of unreliability. Please stop edit warring and seek consensus and demonstrate verifiability for the information you are trying to add. Three Israeli websites are obviously not independent nor reliable for this information. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- @האופה: Still waiting for your elaborations on your edit. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you have concerns regarding the sources, you should start a discussion on WP:RSN. We better evaluate sources based on their sticking to factual reporting rather than their country of origin, so their location in Israel is irrelevant to this conversation. If you're familiar with other theories of Sinwar's current whereabouts which other reliable sources support you're welcome to add them as well. HaOfa (talk) 17:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- @האופה: Now how WP works. Per WP:BURDEN, it is the responsibility of the inserter of the material to demonstrate verifiability. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you have concerns regarding the sources, you should start a discussion on WP:RSN. We better evaluate sources based on their sticking to factual reporting rather than their country of origin, so their location in Israel is irrelevant to this conversation. If you're familiar with other theories of Sinwar's current whereabouts which other reliable sources support you're welcome to add them as well. HaOfa (talk) 17:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Lede
@Thegreatrebellion: What value does this sentence add to the lede as a summary of the body? " He is regarded as one of the most prominent leaders of Hamas, alongside Ismail Haniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Mohammed Deif and Marwan Issa." Sinwar is already described as the organization's head in GS. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
Yahya Sinwar has been appointed Head of Hamas' Political Bureau
I cannot edit this article. Someone make this change, thanks! XAP14x (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- No he hasnt. The sourcing I've seen say Muhammad Ismail Darwish has been appointed interim head of the political bureau. nableezy - 18:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Take that back. nableezy - 21:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Brain surgery?
There are conflicting reports about where and when he had brain surgery. Our article cites a 2024 NYT article, that says 2004 at Soroka Medical Center.[1] This source [2] says 2008 at Assaf Harofeh Medical Center. This source[3] says 2004 at Shamir Medical Center (the new name of Assaf Harofeh Medical Center).
Because of the conflicts by reliable sources, there is no authoritative source. At best we can report what the sources say ie. according to X it was here, according to Y it was there. In situations like this, older sources closer to the event are more reliable, but since he was not a major figure at the time, it may not have been reported at all, and only recently is it being reported as Israeli doctors saving his life. -- GreenC 22:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not a "definitively reliable" source, but here's a quote from an interview with Tat-Gundar Betty Lahat, who was head intelligence officer of the Israeli Prison Service and commander of the prison where Sinwar was incarcerated. Excerpt from Israeli publication Walla, translated using Google Translate:
- "He was terribly afraid. When he started having headaches, we sent him from Nafha prison in the south to Ayalon prison, and later they discovered a tumor near his brain, and the man just fell apart, because it was a very violent type of cancer. We brought him to Assaf Harofeh Hospital, and he underwent surgery to remove it [the growth]. I came to see him, 'You see, the state of Israel saved your life.' He said, 'No one explains to me what my situation is, not even my family knows if this is the end of me.'
- "So I called the doctor who explained to him that the tumor had been removed and currently no metastases are seen. But Sanwar continued to be frightened. Every time he saw me he asked, 'What will happen to me, the tumor will not return?' , and senior officials from the Palestinian Authority asked to visit him and were allowed to. First, the Minister of Prisoners' Affairs Sufyan Abu Zeida arrived, and when he left the visit I asked him, 'Well, what, the hero cried for you too?', and he said, 'Yes, there is nothing to be done, Sanwar is afraid for his life.'"
- So, according to the head intelligence officer of the Israeli Prison Service and commander of the prison where Sinwar was incarcerated, Sinwar was operated on at Assaf Haforeh Hospital/Shamir Medical Center (where he allegedly visited him). Mooonswimmer 23:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's a pretty good source, from someone who was there and in a position of authority. It's the same material noted in [4] which gave a date of 2008. Was it 2008? Or 2004 per NYT? -- GreenC 02:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Objective language
In this excerpt:
"Despite his leadership among prisoners, Sinwar remained humble, sharing cooking duties and other chores with junior inmates as well as making knafeh for fellow prisoners, fostering camaraderie."
The phrase "Sinwar remained humble," should be removed to maintain a sense of objectivity.
The actions speak for themselves and presenting them on their own is enough to illustrate the point. The clause "Sinwar remained humble," could give the reader a sense of partiality. Afw35 (talk) 03:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I also find the the use of the word snitch a case of not-objective and colloqial language.I would assume one would use informant or collaborators as used before?
- "Israeli authorities suspected him of ordering the beheadings of two suspected snitches." 2A00:6020:B297:B700:AC6F:8BEB:7702:70F4 (talk) 06:46, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- I don't find "he remained humble" to be a very subjective phrase here. It seems like it is just a basic explanation of facts. "Snitches" is an issue because of its informality, not because it is impartial. "Informant" or "Collaborator" is just as objective as "snitches" its just more formal and appropriate. Jdftba (talk) 17:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- The phrasing is in the cited source, so it was matching it. Whoever removed it was wrong to do so and I have restored it while avoiding wiki voice. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 06:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
He is Alive
He is reportedly alive and not dead. According to reports, he contacted ceasefire deal mediators. BangladeshiEditorInSylhet (talk) 13:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2024
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His death is confirmed by DNA request 2A00:A041:1C1D:CF00:F455:23D1:5979:A47F (talk) 14:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- The man is dead. It's confirmed. ZeroByter (talk) 14:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, can also confirm. Svsivard (talk) 14:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a source with the DNA claim? Been trying to find one to no avail so far. Procyon117 (talk) 14:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- There's no source because no such test was done yet (or at least, its results were not published). There is no official source claiming his death yet. Hopefully soon. רון18 (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Mhm. It's only a matter of time at this point. Procyon117 (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Of course it's a matter of time. But the body was recovered from the ruins only recently, and we are waiting for an official confirmation. I don't say it's not true, I just say it has not been confirmed yet by any official source. רון18 (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- I have seen the pictures, and they do resemble him. The corpse is surrounded by idf and it means they have access to it, we’ll wait for the dna tests but it’s likely The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:30, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- There is also a front teeth / ear comparison of the corpse to the living person, they are identical. Sources are Telegram / X. Jouk (talk) 14:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Until a reliable source(s) comfirm his death. Wår (talk) 15:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- There is also a front teeth / ear comparison of the corpse to the living person, they are identical. Sources are Telegram / X. Jouk (talk) 14:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Mhm. It's only a matter of time at this point. Procyon117 (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Some live news blogs seem to consider it confirmed now - CNN says
Israel has confirmed to American officials that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar is dead according to initial DNA testing, a person familiar with the matter said.
, WaPo similar, etc. We could wait for a more clearly-reliable source though. — xDanielx T/C\R 16:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)- Its obviously reliably sourced that Israel says he was killed, but no source I see is saying that as a fact in their own voice, only saying Israel says so. nableezy - 17:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Youre not making any sense. Israel said he was dead. Thats a reliable source. 31.3.74.166 (talk) 06:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Its obviously reliably sourced that Israel says he was killed, but no source I see is saying that as a fact in their own voice, only saying Israel says so. nableezy - 17:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- There's no source because no such test was done yet (or at least, its results were not published). There is no official source claiming his death yet. Hopefully soon. רון18 (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: this is not an edit request. M.Bitton (talk) 15:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2024 (2)
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Update death date to 17th of October 2024 2A0D:6FC0:7BE:C500:91F7:83B8:33B0:9D96 (talk) 14:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 15:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
The BBC is now reporting that his death has been confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy94zdd0nxlt
Did he survive?
Now resolved. TheLibyanGuy (talk) 20:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Are there any sources to confirm that he is still alive? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2024 (3)
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Put was instead of is because he died Liad1456 (talk) 16:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
BBC confirms death:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy94zdd0nxlt - Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:52, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Support topic is no longer a BLP -- GreenC 16:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- NY Times is reporting "Hamas Leader is Dead". BBC is reporting the death. Is there any case for not removing the "Biography articles of Living People" category from this page? Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Especially since the editnotice on the article is saying "This article is currently being heavily edited because its subject has recently died." Unless Sinwar is the Middle Eastern version of Schrodinger's cat, I suggest we go one way or the other on this. Wehwalt (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- They are reporting Israel* confirms his death. nableezy - 17:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- NY Times is saying "Hamas Leader is Dead". They are certainly capable of printing "Israel Reports Sinwar Dead" or some such, but they're saying he's dead, taking whatever risk of a Dewey-Beats-Truman reversal there may be and putting in all their chips anyway.
- So what are you saying? That we should remove the date of death and the section on his death, not to mention the edit notice? We should follow the sources, not keep a foot on both sides of the water, and remove the category. Wehwalt (talk) 17:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- WP:HEADLINES. Their actual stories are reporting the IDF saying he is dead. And yes, we should be removing dates of death until sources report is a fact and not as an IDF claim. nableezy - 17:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- NY Times just printed his obituary. I think we should go by what the RS we use think of the information they have. In this case, they are willing to make definite statements. You are second-guessing them because you don't like where you think their information came from. That's not enough. Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this would be a source putting it in their own words that he is dead. That resolves the issue for me. The earlier linked BBC story, and the earlier NYT articles, all said Israel confirms. I dont really know why you think at that point following the sources meant not attributing the claim to Israel, but thats a curiosity that will have to remain unanswered I suppose. As far as your claim about what I said, I dont think that remotely resembles anything like reality, but go off Wehwalt. nableezy - 18:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- As you wish. We can remove the "living people" cat, in your view, then? Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think I already answered that, but with the NYT obit yes that's fine with me. nableezy - 18:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Thank you. Wehwalt (talk) 18:25, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think I already answered that, but with the NYT obit yes that's fine with me. nableezy - 18:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- As you wish. We can remove the "living people" cat, in your view, then? Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this would be a source putting it in their own words that he is dead. That resolves the issue for me. The earlier linked BBC story, and the earlier NYT articles, all said Israel confirms. I dont really know why you think at that point following the sources meant not attributing the claim to Israel, but thats a curiosity that will have to remain unanswered I suppose. As far as your claim about what I said, I dont think that remotely resembles anything like reality, but go off Wehwalt. nableezy - 18:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- NY Times just printed his obituary. I think we should go by what the RS we use think of the information they have. In this case, they are willing to make definite statements. You are second-guessing them because you don't like where you think their information came from. That's not enough. Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- WP:HEADLINES. Their actual stories are reporting the IDF saying he is dead. And yes, we should be removing dates of death until sources report is a fact and not as an IDF claim. nableezy - 17:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- They are reporting Israel* confirms his death. nableezy - 17:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Especially since the editnotice on the article is saying "This article is currently being heavily edited because its subject has recently died." Unless Sinwar is the Middle Eastern version of Schrodinger's cat, I suggest we go one way or the other on this. Wehwalt (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- NY Times is reporting "Hamas Leader is Dead". BBC is reporting the death. Is there any case for not removing the "Biography articles of Living People" category from this page? Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Support topic is no longer a BLP -- GreenC 16:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Denied/Confirmed by Hamas
"Denied by Hamas" "Hamas also confirmed his death." Pick one. -- Veggies (talk) 12:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Change from Militant to Militiaman, Militant feels like a narrative supportive of IDF, More sources needed also
I suppose changing some words. BangladeshiEditorInSylhet (talk) 14:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- Militiaman has a positive connotation in order to stay neutral militant is more appropriate. Militant does not imply an Israeli narrative, while militiaman does very much evoke the image of a citizen taking up arms not an individual leading an armed pseeudo state faction. Hamas is not a militia it is an organised group of professional militants. 2A02:3035:E77:2323:D9C1:7065:A504:C38C (talk) 15:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- He's widely seen as a terrorist, just as Osama bin Laden was connected with 9/11, then Sinwar was the mastermind of Oct7th. Mathmo Talk 23:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- @31.3.74.166 That was before he was claimed Killed, There were multiple claims that he was killed even a few weeks ago, where he was found alive. You want proof? Here's the Proof, Wow I am not suitable to discuss these subjects on Wikipedia? Then, what about you? He is now dead but there were claims that he died before which were refuted. BangladeshiEditorInSylhet (talk) 09:52, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Better Picture Please
Can we please get a better picture for the top of this article? There exists many photos of him that aren’t incredibly grainy. 2601:602:8C81:C690:EDFF:3604:E9EA:41B (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- Was wondering about the same, but on looking closer commons doesn't have any, which probably indicates that there are none in the public domain. This is understandable, as it's not like any freelance photographer/journalist had much chance of getting close to him, and Israel/Hamas pictures probably aren't under a free license. If you do find some, feel free to upload them to commons, and to add them to the article. — Alien 3
3 3 17:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC) - Copyright issues make it hard to upload such pictures, many get taken down The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 October 2024
It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Yahya Sinwar. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
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In the "death" section, it's worth mentioning that the holder of the UNWRA passport was identified to have been alive and seeking asylum in Egypt since April; he did not die alongside Sinwar as social media is speculating. This was confirmed by UNWRA comissioner-general Philippe Lazzarini.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/18/passport-unwra-teacher-found-body-yahya-sinwar/
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/passport-of-unwra-teacher-found-on-body-of-sinwar/ar-AA1suXa9 Itsdsni (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 October 2024 (2)
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Tu abuela 2806:109F:D:4EE2:51E7:871E:D5FD:D0FD (talk) 22:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 14:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
June 2024 Leaked Communications are authentic, per the cited WSJ article
Under the Israel–Hamas war subsection of the Leadership of Hamas in the Gaza Strip (2017–2024) portion of the article, the Wall Street Journal's article about leaked communications of Yahya Sinwar are discussed:
In June 2024, The Wall Street Journal published what it said were leaked communications between Sinwar and Hamas' leadership, in which Sinwar claimed to "have the Israelis right where we want them" and suggested that Palestinian civilian deaths were "necessary sacrifices" that would "infuse life into the veins of this nation, prompting it to rise to its glory and honour"[66][67].
However, this is immediately followed up by the sentence claiming that these communications are unverified:
The authenticity of these messages could not be verified [68].
However, the source for this information -- originally published in The Wall Street Journal, citation [66] -- specifically notes that the messages were reviewed by publishers at the Wall Street Journal. The lack-of-verification of Sinwar's messages pertained to the CNN article, which essentially reported what was in the WSJ's article without further investigation. It does not claim that The Wall Street Journal did not verify the messages before publication, only that the CNN article is only reporting on the Wall Street Journal's investigation without similar authentication checks.
A non-paywalled version of the Wall Street Journal report can be found here. It directly states, "In dozens of messages—reviewed by The Wall Street Journal—that Sinwar has transmitted to cease-fire negotiators..." , which is also the case for the existing hyperlink attached to citation [66].
The sentence stating "The authenticity of these messages could not be verified[68]" should be removed from the page, as it only pertains to a singular article whose focus was the contents of the original Wall Street Journal report. Given the contentious politics of Hamas, as well as the original danger surrounding such private information being leaked to the WSJ, it is not remotely strange that these leaked private messages would only be shared with the original publisher. The aforementioned sentence undermines the original WSJ report, and should be removed unless further information is brought forth that questions the original report's authenticity.
Brsolo21 (talk) 02:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
UNRWA Employee ID
The article states that Sinwar was found with an UNRWA employee ID. This is a direct quote of the Jerusalem Post, which is quoting an Israeli journalist on X/Twitter. However, the object pictured in the tweet is a Palestinian Authority passport belonging to a person whose occupation is listed as UNRWA employee, i.e. "an UNRWA employee's ID" (if not a less ambiguous phrasing) and not an employee ID issued by UNRWA. This may be a simple typo on Twitter or something else, but the distinction seems important in light of allegations against UNRWA regarding its role in the conflict. Doko Wolf (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2024
It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Yahya Sinwar. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
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remove killed and add martyred in the article sinwar was a legend!!! Ch. Masoom A.K (talk) 08:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- He was a terrorist. No. Matthew4100000- (talk) 14:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- No, this man was a terrorist who killed his on people on purpose. Matthew4100002 (talk) 14:44, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2024 (2)
It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Yahya Sinwar. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
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Under personal life, the text about the age difference "who was 18 years younger than him." referring to his adult wife, seems suspiciously placed, in light of the facts of other leaders with more significant and troubling age differences between their spouses that go unmentioned.
Ex: Donald Trump's 24 year age gap with Melania is not mentioned in his wiki
Boris Johnson's 24 year age gap with Symonds is not mentioned in his wiki Itamar Ben-Gvir's wiki does not mention he began dating his wife when she was 15 and he 26, and they married when she was 17. Discoltk (talk) 10:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Portrait image
The image should be reverted to the original, as his face is visible in the original image. Matthew4100002 (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
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