Talk:Nuerland

Rol Naath

This talk page is for discussing Rol Naath article and not for discussion about the article's subject. You are welcome to help improve the article. Gatwech Gai (talk) 05:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing Rol Naath article and not for discussion about the article's subject. You are welcome to help improve the article. Gatwech Gai (talk) 05:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC) 41.79.122.94 (talk) 11:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

removed edit

@MSGJ you have locked the page and left this edit, which starts with "Rol Naath, a de facto autonomous state that was politically, socially, and economically independent until 1943 and officially became part of the Sudan political system in 1947, is now seeking to unilaterally separate and consequently dissolve that 1943 political union with South Sudan." the citation given is two YouTube videos from Nuer separatist, which does not meet WP:RS. The rest of the edit is pure synthtic, mixed with sentences like "When the world's supper powers were conquering other African countries in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Nuer carried out their own territorial conquest" etc. Below is a references analysis

• 1st paragraph mentioned above with YouTube references 1 and 2
• 2nd paragraph has the "When the world's super .. phrase referenced to a book review and an entire book with no page.
• 3rd paragraph mentions "The Turkish who invaded Sudan in 1821 perceived the Nuerland as a sovereign state" with no inline reference, and checking the the reference at the end of the paragraph does no mention the word "Nuer" at all.
• 4th paragraph mentions "It was not until 1916 that the first patrol was sent to the Nuerland. the reference again does not support this claim and nothing there about Nuer at all. Also same paragraph it mentions "The British colonial administration in Sudan acknowledged that the Nuer country was an independent state}}" with no inline source, and the sources at the end does not mention any acknowledged that the Nuer country was an independent state excluding the entire book to was cited which I could not skim read.
• 5th paragraph mentions "the Nuer political system was relatively strong" and "Fangak region functioned as parliament, the source is a comment from a Nuer Spokesmen who talks about Nuer Chiefs including Guek Ngundeng and his son. Nothing there about Parliament. Again total fabrication and by now you can get the general gist. In the same paragraph "The Ngundeng pyramid became a strong symbol of the Nuer people's" no inline source, and the source at the end of the paragraph does not support this claim at all.
• 6th paragraph talks about the South Sudan struggle for independence and the "Nuer nation" sacrifice until it says "Years later, the Nuer believed that their sacrifices were overlooked". No source at all. The paragraph ends with "The Nuer people and the Rol Naath authority seek to end the 1943 de jure agreement with South Sudan and return to the Nuerland political structure that existed before 1943." sourced to YouTube (same Nuer TV) and a Human Rights Watch report which does no support this sentence at all
• last paragraph is the most amazing one, it says "The Rol Naath leadership believed that the unification of the Nuer people with other nations in Sudan and later South Sudan ultimately resulted in a disastrous union. It costs the Nuer their lives, culture and traditions, customs, resources, and way of life, and restoring Nuerland's sovereignty is the only way toward addressing all of their problems." and has two sources after the first sentence which do not say any thing about what the leaders believed. Both articles (1 and 2) about how Arab in the North forces their identity on the South, with the word "Nuer" used twice, once with Dinka for participation in the North government (out of the other tribes) and 2nd for statistics for that participation. The 2nd sentence is sourced to a YouTube video that does not meet WP:RS.

can you please reinstate my edit. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This request has been here for a couple of days without comment, so I am planning to accept the request. Just checking though. There are a number of references that appear (from cursory inspection) to be relevant and in good order. I am listing some below. Much of the content seems to be cited to these. Can nothing of that be saved?

• Johnson, Douglas H. (1993). "Deng Laka and Mut Roal: Fixing the Date of an Unknown Battle". History in Africa. 20: 119–128. doi:10.2307/3171968. ISSN 0361-5413.
• Bonte, Pierre (1987). "Raymond C. Kelly, The Nuer Conquest: the structure and development of an expansionist system. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 1985, 320 pp., 0 472 10064 5 hardback, 0-472 08056 3 paperback". Africa. 57 (1): 123–125. doi:10.2307/1160187. ISSN 1750-0184.
• Bjorkelo, Anders (1997). "The Territorial Unification and Administrative Divisions of Turkish Sudan, 1821-1885". Sudan Notes and Records (1): 25–46. ISSN 0375-2984.
• Sanderson, G. N. (1969). "Conflict and Co-Operation Between Ethiopia and the Mahdist State, 1884-1898". Sudan Notes and Records. 50: 15–40. ISSN 0375-2984.
• Johnson, Douglas H., ed. (2016). Empire and the Nuer: sources on the pacification of the Southern Sudan, 1898-1930. Fontes historiae Africanae = Sources of African History. Oxford: Published for the British Academy by Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-726588-8.
• Coriat, P. (1939). "Gwek, the Witch-Doctor and the Pyramid of Denkgur". Sudan Notes and Records. 22 (2): 221–237. ISSN 0375-2984.</ref><ref>Johnson, Douglas H. (1979). "Colonial Policy and Prophets: The 'Nuer Settlement'". Journal of the Anthropological Society of Oxford. 10 (1): 1–20.
• Johnson, Douglas H. (1981). "Percy Coriat on the Nuer". Journal of the Anthropological Society of Oxford. 12 (3): 199–206.

— Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

all of these are great sources but none of them support any line mentioned in this section at all. There is alot of fictitious referencing here. They can by listed as "Further reading" FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is true, then the editor should be immediately blocked — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I gave you analysis for each line of that edit, You double check it yourself. The external links in my comments are the references that @WatersignKing used in their edit. I have posted the issue at ANI Nuerland but nothing came out of that. You can see the editor in question reply there too and gauge for yourself. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Removed Section

• @MSGJ you have removed the Nuer independence section before I could refute the claim made by @FuzzyMagma. This first paragraph that start with "Rol Naath, a de facto autonomous state that was politically, socially, and economically independent until 1943 and officially became part of the Sudan political system in 1947, is now seeking to unilaterally separate and consequently dissolve that 1943 political union with South Sudan." is sourced from Nuer TV, a public channel on Youtube which doesnot belong to the Separatist. The citation actually meet the WP:RS, perhaps you may need to read "Audio and video sources" section. Although this is not the first article on Wikipedia to cite public Youtube channel/video.

• how does Nuer TV meet WP:RS per WP:BURDEN? FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• For the claim "The rest of the edit is pure synthtic, mixed with sentences like "When the world's supper powers were conquering other African countries in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Nuer carried out their own territorial conquest"

- This is baseless claim from someone who is just trying to get his point across. Because if you read the source Bonte, Pierre (1987). "Raymond C. Kelly, The Nuer Conquest: the structure and development of an expansionist system. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 1985, 320 pp., 0 472 10064 5 hardback, 0-472 08056 3 paperback". Africa. 57 (1): 123–125. doi:10.2307/1160187. ISSN 1750-0184. , its on the page number 1 and I can quote some here "In the early 1800s, the Nuer occupied a territory of 8700 square miles located in the West central portion of Upper Nile basin....by about 1890, the Nuer has expanded to the eastern edge of the Upper Nile basin, cutting hundred-miles-wide swath through the center of Dinka territory and appropriating a substantial portion of Anyuak territory...the Nuer increased their territory to a total of 35,000 square miles from the period of 1818 to 1890... Nuer displacement of Dinka and Anyuak represent one of the most prominent instances of tribal imperialism contained in the ethnographic record." Where is lie in here?

• For this "* 3rd paragraph mentions "The Turkish who invaded Sudan in 1821 perceived the Nuerland as a sovereign state" with no inline reference, and checking the the reference at the end of the paragraph does not mention the word "Nuer" at all."

- The citation provide an account of Turco-Angelo Egyptian invasion of Sudan region.

• Answer the question, plan and simple, does this source support this claim? FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The other [1]https://www.jstor.org/stable/3171968 provide detailed famous Mut Roal battle between the Nuer and the invaders(in which the Nuer defeated the invaders) and further details on Nuer political system. Again, where is the lie?

• For this Analysis "4th paragraph mentions "It was not until 1916 that the first patrol was sent to the Nuerland".

- The citation [2]https://www.jstor.org/stable/41716333?read-now=1, a work of Percy Coriat the first District Commissioner of Nuer in 1921 wrote himself about the Nuer. Its also on [3]https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:c820321a-09d1-49b0-ad51-fc52cc34faf4. The first patrol that was sent to Nuerland which was known to the colonial administration as "Nuer settlement" encountered difficulty with the Nuer which resulted into a visit by H.C Jackson, the governor of Upper Nile Province in 1921 to make peace with Guek Ngundeng, the Nuer spiritual leader/prophet. Nothing is lie here.

• For the next one "5th paragraph mentions "the Nuer political system was relatively strong" and "Fangak region functioned as parliament, the source is a comment from a Nuer Spokesmen who talks about Nuer Chiefs including Guek Ngundeng and his son. Nothing there about Parliament. Again total fabrication and by now you can get the general gist. In the same paragraph "The Ngundeng pyramid became a strong symbol of the Nuer people's" no inline source, and the source at the end of the paragraph does not support this claim at all".

- This is interesting because the source [4]https://www.jstor.org/stable/41716333?read-now=1 indicated very clear that "the pyramid of Dengkur/Ngundeng Pyramid was the strong symbol of resistance of the Nuer people to the colonial administration" which is the very reason why Percy Coriat dispatched 4 British Royal Air forces in 1928 to destroy the pyramid. I wonder if you actual read the source.

• again plain and simple, does the source support your sentence? it does not even talk about any parliament?! FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• To address the next pure lie "6th paragraph talks about the South Sudan struggle for independence and the "Nuer nation" sacrifice until it says "Years later, the Nuer believed that their sacrifices were overlooked". No source at all. The paragraph ends with "The Nuer people and the Rol Naath authority seek to end the 1943 de jure agreement with South Sudan and return to the Nuerland political structure that existed before 1943." sourced to YouTube (same Nuer TV) and a Human Rights Watch report which does no support this sentence at all."

- This analysis is pure lie and anyone with sense of smelling can smell this from miles away. In 2013 and succeeding years, the Nuer were killed in Juba, the beginning of South Sudanese civil war and the source Human Rights Watch clearly supported that. For the paragraph "The Nuer people and the Rol Naath authority seek to end the 1943 de jure agreement with South Sudan and return to the Nuerland political structure that existed before 1943.".

- Its also sourced here where the Nuer Independence movement leaders spoke clearly about that YouTube.

• please copy from the HRW article where it support your claim, show us? FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• For the last analysis "last paragraph is the most amazing one, it says "The Rol Naath leadership believed that the unification of the Nuer people with other nations in Sudan and later South Sudan ultimately resulted in a disastrous union. It costs the Nuer their lives, culture and traditions, customs, resources, and way of life, and restoring Nuerland's sovereignty is the only way toward addressing all of their problems.".

- Again this analysis is a baseless claim. this paragraph is sourced from the Nuer Independence Movement conference YouTube video. in which the leaders spoke all of these words.

• not a reliable source. Please go and have a read about WP:RS. Given how you fictitious referencing, you clearly won't know what a reliable source even if is hit you in the face. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It appeared that FuzzyMagma invested his vested energy on trying to remove Nuer people's historical account as he has always been trying to do in several occassion "ANI Nuerland" but failed. He tried accusing me of "working for Nuer Independence Movement" which is laughable because his intention was trying to have me blocked. I urge anyone to do their research on South Sudan current political arena and the Nuer independence. I recently published Tumaini Peace Initiative but he didn't accuse me of working for Warring parties of South Sudan. I wonder why he accuse me now for publishing about Nuer Independence which is one of the biggest trend currently in South Sudan political arena. MSGJ please review the work that you have undo again and judge for yourself. The editor in question work smell fishy. WatersignKing

• stop the personal attacks! talk about the content not the person. You have been warned three times FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 October 2024

Add page protection icon: {{pp-dispute|small=yes}} to the article. Narnat. 17:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Or this should be unprotected - it's been 3 weeks and indefinitely fully protecting an article is very unusual. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Unprotected I think I forgot to add the expiry date — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)