Talk:Nova music festival massacre
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Reference ideas for Nova music festival massacre The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
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On 8 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Supernova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
On 6 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
"Civilians", "murder" and "hostages"
Since some of my edits were undone I think it's prudent to talk about the POV, editorialized and inaccurate language used in this article at present. Right in the lead we have the following:
- As part of the attack, 364 civilians were murdered and many more wounded
None of the cited news articles call these 364 dead "civilians". Only some individual cases are called civilians. The BBC states that of the killed, 9 were US citizens, 1 a Canadian citizen, up to 10 UK citizens, 2 French citizens, 20 Thai citizens, 10 Nepalese citizens, 2 Filipino citizens, 1 German citizen, 1 Cambodian citizen, 1 Chinese-Israeli (let's count her as Chinese for this purpose). In total 57. I have excluded the mere missing cases. Therefore around 300 of those killed were Israelis. Do any sources say whether these people were members of the IDF or not? Due to the high conscription rate in Israel, of which only ultra-Orthodox and Arab Israelis are exempt, it would be false to label all 300 of these dead Israels "civilians" when, as members of the IDF, they were not civilians.
The second point here is on the use of the word "murder". Murder is a civilian crime, not a military one. Al-Qassam is Hamas' military wing, and Hamas is at present the only legitimate government of Gaza, having won the 2006 election. And again, a significant number of those killed were not civilians, but members of the IDF. Such killings are not murder. More importantly, we need RS that calls these killings "murders", not US-aligned editorialized newspaper articles.
Finally the word "hostages". Again, when it comes to military personnel, the correct term is prisoners of war. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Good point about the 364 casualties. Obviously, police officers are not civilians.
- As for the use of the word hostages, you'd be correct if any of the kidnapped invidviduals from the music festival were military personnel. But since none were, the word "hostages" is the correct word. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- You're just showing how much you don't understand, just by the sheer words used in your comment.
- Serving in the IDF is indeed mandatory, however only for 2.8 years (males) or 2 years (females). Once someone finishes his/her mandatory service he goes back to being a civilian, just like you wouldn't call an 80 years old retired cop a police personnel. The overwhelming majority of nova goers were not serving in the IDF nor the Israeli police at the time, therefore they were unarmed civilians. I again urge you to understand the difference between a civilian and a military personnel before commenting unbiased claims. And the word hostages fits perfectly, just like the people on the planes in the 9.11 attacks. 2A00:A040:1A3:A23D:6992:DF7A:36:7C3A (talk) 00:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Military law only applies when they are in active service engaged in combat. They are civilians when they are off-uniform. I don’t see your point and it doesn’t come off as being made in good faith. Steven1991 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
POV & unsourced language removed
Of the sources provided, none of them mentioned rape or torture, so I have removed those words. I have also removed the "by Hamas" phrase, when it's contradicted by the parts of this article detailing how friendly fire could have resulted in some deaths. I have also removed "murder" as a POV word, however, it is used in some of the sources listed, and for that reason, I'm okay with restoring it. JasonMacker (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Hammas should be called a terrorist group, it's not mentioned
yes it was democratically elected but it's still a terrorist group. 147.235.194.106 (talk) 14:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
- Strongly agreed. Steven1991 (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
- "it's still a terrorist group" Says who? Dimadick (talk) 09:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Agree. It is a terrorist organization and it was a terrorist attack, not a “sudden attack “ (wtf is that?) 99.196.129.196 (talk) 10:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Showing victims’ faces
It is extremely disrespectful to show uncensored video footage of the victims of the massacre. Please censor the video or remove it. 2001:4DF7:0:89F7:2C2B:1BF2:41CA:4885 (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- I tried to collapse the video, but it didn't work well, so I reverted myself. I was hoping to just collapse the box of the video, but it ended up creating a new box above the text. If somebody else knows how to do that, give it a try. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think WP:NOTCENSORED/WP:DISCL applies here. - Ïvana (talk) 21:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- It seems that other Wikipedias have a template for hiding images (I don't know if it also works for hiding videos), but the English Wikipedia does not have such a template. To be honest, I'm not sure there is much value for such a template (in other words, I wouldn't waste my time to try to develop such a template). The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think WP:NOTCENSORED/WP:DISCL applies here. - Ïvana (talk) 21:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
Revert
@Ïvana, could you please explain your revert? Where are the NPOV issues? Thanks. HaOfa (talk) 08:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- A mass lead rewrite needs consensus even without taking into account the addition of WP:LOADED terms intended to push a particular POV. What exactly is wrong with the current lead? It already succinctly describes the content of the body using RS, and it has been a stable version for months. - Ïvana (talk) 21:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you need to elaborate on what exactly do you find to be "WP:LOADED" and what exactly do you find to be a POV push? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- If your concern is about the rape allegations not being addressed (which can be fixed with a single line instead of rewriting a big chunk of the lead) I don't think the sentence
In addition to the massacre, many more were injured, and atrocities including the rape of women were committed.
is neutral at all or following WP:NPOV. It is also not a good reflection of the body of the article which says that the IDF has not verified those claims. Both things need to be mentioned. - Ïvana (talk) 21:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- If your concern is about the rape allegations not being addressed (which can be fixed with a single line instead of rewriting a big chunk of the lead) I don't think the sentence
- I'm also unclear on what your specific concerns are. The lede you restored isn't neutral since it has no mention of sexual assaults. — xDanielx T/C\R 21:43, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- The lede I restored has been the stable version for months, I didn't unilaterally chose it. - Ïvana (talk) 21:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- That in itself is absolutely not an excuse to revert. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- The lede I restored has been the stable version for months, I didn't unilaterally chose it. - Ïvana (talk) 21:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you need to elaborate on what exactly do you find to be "WP:LOADED" and what exactly do you find to be a POV push? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
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