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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Missvain (talk | contribs) at 19:34, 18 November 2024 (OneClickArchived "Problem with the list" to Talk:Soul food/Archive 1). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Collard greens

I thought some of the people interested soul food might be interested in the question of what to name the article currently known as Collard greens.

There are really two questions. One is a complicated one about what is collard greens, what is kale, and what is spring greens, and whether they should have separate articles or be merged.

The second is, assuming there is a separate article, whether it should be called Collard, Collards, or Collard greens.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Pekinensis 19:11, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Call it Collard greens, and state in the lead sentence "Collard greens, also known as simply collards...". I've heard a few people say "collards", but almost everyone I know says "collard greens". --b. Touch 01:51, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sweet Bread

A page on soul food with out including "Sweet Bread"? I hope my Mama don't see this page.

LOL! --FuriousFreddy 02:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The word slaveowner

I can't find the word slaveowner in any of the dictionaries I have (Webster's 11th Collegiate, American Heritage, 4th ed., Chambers, 9th ed.). Is there a source for slaveowner? Thanks. —Wayward Talk 02:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A slave owner is someone who owned and sold African people like they were property. They (Africans) were forced to be slaves.Email/User Talk 12:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Non-native food

What foods were brought from Africa? Rich Farmbrough, 21:14 3 September 2006 (GMT).

Peanuts but they were brought from South America to Africa first. Perhaps watermelon and black-eyed peas.12.27.66.8 (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Soul Food Online

Should that link to Soul Food Online really be under 'history and culture'? It's already listed under external links - Conner 10 September 2006.

Rituals

I'm thinking there should be a section dealing with food-related rituals in African American culture here. Like the pouring of libations "for those who are no longer here" -- very West African. Like the preparation and consumption of greens (or cabbage) and blackeyed peas for New Year's Day to ensure prosperity. Like church homecoming picnics and Sunday dinners and rent parties -- and, oh, those Saturday night fish fries! deeceevoice 05:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indigenous Influence

IM pretty sure that "native american" food had more of an influence on soul food than is suggested in the article. 

                                                                                                                                        that is so true i believe there is more native american influence then was mentioned because most african americans and their culture is tri-racial native american and european and west and central african influence on african americans and their culture is extremaly high  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.93.105 (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Needs work

I read only one section and made a few changes. The piece needs a good editorial once-over. There were a lot of generalizations that needed qualifying, or text that required general clean-up for unencyclopedic language in the portion I read. Also, throughout "south" is often not capitalized -- which is incorrect. When used to refer to the region, it is always capitalized. deeceevoice 20:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistency in "Soul food and health"

"Soul food was developed by enslaved Africans who lived under the difficult and impoverished conditions of grinding physical labor. The history of soul food does not begin with the roots of slavery, but with traditions stretching back to Africa." Either it began with slavery or not. Either this is inconsistent or confusingly stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.172 (talk) 19:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. And its caused a race-centric heart disease pandemic that the article quietly tip-toes around. --98.232.182.66 (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

why is there a hea;th section?

The article on southern cuisine does not have despite southern cuisine being VERY unhealthy. YVNP (talk) 14:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chitterlings

The section

"African American slaves also developed recipes which used discarded meat from the plantation, such as pigs' feet, beef tongue or tail, ham hocks, chitterlings (pig small intestines), pig ears, hog jowls, tripe and skin."

is somewhat misleading as it suggests (perhaps unintentionally) that African American slaves developed the recipe of chitterlings. Chitterling is a Middle English word (1066-1460 AD) for a pig's small intestine, especially when fried as a food, and it was a common foodstuff for poor people in Europe in the medieval period. Likewise tripe is a Middle English word and refers amongst other things to those parts of the entrails (commonly the stomach) used as food. Poor people in medieval Europe used pretty much every part of the animal; I'm sure poor people across the world did the same, so it is not a specifically African American slave-related thing to exploit these parts. Is there some way of phrasing the sentence unambiguously so that it is clear they they used these parts but that there is no suggestion that they were the first to do so. 86.133.244.80 (talk) 12:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of valid info removed

Just wanted to note that a user just removed a ton of valid information; all of the following was removed:

Other items

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  • Grits (or "hominy grits", made from processed, dried, ground corn kernels and usually eaten as a breakfast food the consistency of porridge; also served with fish and meat at dinnertime, similar to polenta) Eaten by most Americans in the south

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  • Macaroni and cheese (usually cooked from scratch with cheddar cheese, milk, flour, and seasonings mustard is option but a rarity.) It becomes a casserole when meats, such as bacon or ham, are added. Eaten all over America

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  • Sorghum syrup (from sorghum, or "Guinea corn," a sweet grain indigenous to Africa introduced into the U.S. by African slaves in the early 17th century; see biscuits); frequently referred to as "sorghum molasses"

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  • Salmon Patties (also known as Salmon Croquet/Croquettes), a mixture of skinned & de-boned salmon, mixed with cornmeal, eggs, milk and onions fried in a skillet to make small, round patties.

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  • Red Velvet Cake - a popular cake within the African-American culture, in which some say the dark reddish color of the cake symbolizes the struggles of African-Americans during the decades. Eaten in many cultures

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  • Banana Pudding

--172.129.151.213 (talk) 05:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see why its having been removed is a problem. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 05:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added all the info that was there from the last time I made a edit here. Everything should be back in order but I may have missed something. Gune (talk) 17:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm new to wiki editing, so I have not made any changes, but I thought that I would protest the historical lean of this article in hopes that someone else will fix it. There is very little mention of food, and lots of discussion around topic of how the cuisine came to be. While the historical implications and discussion are worthwhile and enriching, a food page should still be primarily about food. There aren't even a small selection of common dishes on this page, which seems off. Someone seems to have a hair up their butt about claiming soul food for black people is what it seems like to me. (Sorry, there's an elephant in the room here.) Can we get someone on making this food article about, you know, food? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.245.27.16 (talk) 09:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Origins section - dates

This section is confusing:

Many culinary historians believe that in the beginning of the 14th century, around the time of early Euro-African exploration, European explorers brought their own food supplies and introduced them into local African diets. Foods such as corn and cassava from the Americas, turnips from Morocco, and cabbage from Portugal would play an important part in the history of African-American cooking.
When the Europeans began their African slave trade in the early 15th century, the diet of newly-enslaved Africans changed on the long journeys away from their homelands. It was during this time that some of the indigenous crops of Africa began showing up in the Americas.

How could corn and cassava be introduced to Africa by Europeans in the early 14th century (i.e. early 1300s) when these foods didn't appear in Europe until after 1492? Should "14th" read "16th"?
And the African slave trade to the Americas did not begin until the 16th (not 15th) century.
I don't have access to the cited reference so can't check these out properly. Newburyjohn (talk) 08:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Healthy Soul Food

I've proposed an article on the trend for healthy soul food at Proposed Articles. If you Google the phrase you will find there is a lot of interest in this.12.27.66.8 (talk) 19:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not black food

So I see people have been complaining since at least twelve years ago that this article is incorrect in suggesting that these are 'black foods', and saying that these are foods that were, and are, eaten by ALL poor Southerners, which included both the blacks and a majority of the whites. Yet no-one as bothered to actually fix it. Maybe they are waiting for a round 15 years? It's called 'soul food' and associated with blacks because it is found in black urban neighborhoods were they serve food associated with home. If you were to find large concentrations of poor Southern whites that had moved North and settled in the cities, you'd undoubtedly find the same food called 'Reb chow' or something of the sort. But the poor whites stayed home, or went West and integrated into the larger population...along with their cooking... instead of forming 'Confederate Towns' in major Northern cities. The blacks did migrate, and the term 'soul food' used to describe the home cooking found in black restaurants was adopted and came to be used even in the South. If it was already in use, then that was what popularized it. But it's not 'black food', and it wasn't invented by black people.

64.222.158.24 (talk) 05:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you can provide sources for these assertions, you are more than welcome to improve the article. Jessicapierce (talk) 05:15, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pending Updates

Although some users are concerned about the origins of Soul Food, I have been doing research that supports the claim that soul food has strong African influences. Thus, I seek to add sections to this page regarding the following: African influence, and perhaps a cultural relevance section discussing the work that scholars did during the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power Movements to have soul food positioned as an aspect of the African American cultural identity. I will not be adding these until I have sufficient sources. I also plan on making minor changes to the language on the page and will be deleting phrases that seem less relevant or biased. Cheesesteaklover16 (talk) 06:00, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed a section under the section that mentioned a French chef being fired by Washington, after several research attempts the results came up false. During my research I did discover that Benjamin Harrison and his wife did in fact fire a french chef for a black chef. I added more information on other presidents who followed in Harrisons footsteps with the inclusion of black chefs in the White House. I then added extra background information on African tribes who were enslaved. Lastly, I added context to the day to day food intake of a slave. Vnessvsmars Vnessvsmars (talk) 02:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian Dare's book Soul Food: The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine, One Plate at a Time needs to be used

He give a nuanced and detailed overview that seems useful. He divides th history into

The Slave Food period (1619-1865) which is about what the slaves themselves ate.

The Southern Cooking period (1865-present) "African Americans foodways within the rural South after Emancipation and before, during, and after the Great Migrations."

The Down Home Cooking period (1890S-1970S) where he discussed urban foodways - what happened during the Great Migrations.

The Soul Food period (i950s-present) where southern food merges with racial politics

TNeo-Soul period (1990s-present.

He discusses the three regional systems of slavery quoting Isaiah Berlin:"a Northern non-plantation system and two Southern plantation systems, one around [the] Chesapeake Bay and the other in the Carolina and Georgia low-country.” To those he adds two other areas where he sees distinct systems, Louisiana and the surrounding area and the Black Belt (U.S. region) saying that "The interplay between diverse peoples (Native Americans, Europeans, and West Africans), soils, climates, larders, and culinary traditions led to the development of distinct cuisines within each slaving system.... those cuisines are still with us as subregional cuisines within southern cooking (see Map 2). The Chesapeake Bay area—where American chattel."

One interesting thing I didn't know is the importance of chickens in West Africa where when chickens arrived they were integrated into their religious systems. The book looks like an excellent read, I might buy it. Doug Weller talk 08:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Health concerns / Dubious

The current HC section is not written in a coherent order and the content is not in the best state.

  • There is also often a foundational difference in how health is perceived; references a source that deals with perception of health in general, not for soul food. Applying it for soul food is with a may is, as far as I am concerned, OR.
  • Fueled by federal subsidies, the agricultural system in the United States became industrialized as the nutritional value of most processed foods, and not just those implicated in a traditional perception of soul food, have degraded. No page number, vague "processed" idea, plus how much worse can lard & salted pork get?
    • Look, we have a more obvious explanation of "high-calorie food evolved for hard slave labor not great for sedentary people". If we want to talk capitalism, we talk about food deserts, not how processed food is somehow getting worse.
    • P.S. fresh vegetables are not getting less nutritious, in case someone wants to bring that up.
    • P.P.S. I don't know whether the source directly relates to soul food.
  • Collard: having one good thing in a diet does not fix its structural issues. It's like how having whole grains in your breakfast cereal doesn't change the fact that it's sweetened with straight sugar.
  • Legumes: probably a valid point, but best to have a source linked to soul food specifically. This one is also a dead link.

What's to be done? Besides fixing the content issues, the ordering needs to be fixed. We should stick to three sub-sections:

  • Nutritional content: criticized for sodium & fat etc, plus the reuse of lard; but at the end, mention the pot liquor.
  • Nutritional modifications: use the vegetable replacement paragraph, AND write new stuff using PMID 16242065, 17987695
  • Reaction to modification, e.g. the authenticity debate

Artoria2e5 🌉 11:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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