Talk:3D Realms

Source for Duke3D for Android, DNF DLC and Shadow Warrior iOS

DNF DLC and Duke3D Android are mentioned here: [1]

Machineworks Northwest is mentioned as the publisher(and developer?) of Duke3D for Android here: [2]

Sources for Shadow Warrior iOS(These could also be used to update the Shadow Warrior article): [3], [4]

3D Realms have also signed up with GoG.com, initially releasing Shadow Warrior and Terminal Velocity: [5]

Then following that up with releasing Duke Nukem 1 and 2: [6] Notice that the previous 3DR games released on GoG were put there by the new Apogee. Also notice that Shadow Warrior on GoG was published by Devolver Digital: [7]

This is a somewhat notable fact but I don't think there is any reliable source about that in it self, but this article could merely note it as a fact and the Shadow Warrior article could be updated with that info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.85.52.191 (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

3D Realms' current ownership status

I put this here because there has been some confusion over 3D Realms' ownership structure. A few years back Danish company SDN Invest ApS acquired 3D Realms. This same company had invested in the development studio Interceptor Entertainment and owned as far as I can remember about 20% of that company. SDN Invest was owned 100% by Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen. Later he transferred his 3D Realms shares to another company wholly owned by him, MDN Holding ApS. Inteceptor meanwhile was voluntarily liquidated and a new development studio Slipgate Studios took over its development of the game Rad Rodgers. The Rad Rodgers IP was later sold to THQ Nordic. Slipgate Studios ApS is wholly owned by Slipgate Holding ApS itself in turn wholly owned by Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen. Public records reflect that on March 30, 2018 3D Realms ownership was changed such that it still remains a subsidiary of MDN Holding ApS but it is no longer wholly owned by that company, now that company owns "66,67-89,99%" of 3D Realms and Slipgate Studios owns "20-24,99%". That fact is reflected in the ownership tab here:

That source in turn lists "Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen" as a beneficial owner, on account of owning 100% of MDN Holding ApS, of 80% of 3D Realms.

That Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen owns 100% of MDN Holding ApS can be seen on the ownership tab here:

That Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen owns 100% of Slipgate Holdings ApS is reflected on the ownership tab here:

That Slipgate Holdings ApS(and thereby indirectly Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen) owns 100% of Slipgate Studios is reflected on the ownership tab here:

3D Realms Entertainment ApS' latest financials available here say, on the last page, that it owns 95% of Apogee Software, Ltd, d/b/a 3D Realms and 100% of Action Entertainment, Inc and that Action Entertainment Inc owns the remaining 5% of Apogee Software, Ltd, d/b/a 3D Realms:

Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen' position as CEO & President of 3D Realms can be verified here: (This can incidentally also be used as a source for the infobox field on the number of 3D Realms employees,

An entity search here for "Action Entertainment" and choosing the last entry and then choosing "public information report" reveals that Mike Nielsen is the "President" and "Director" of that company:

Sources for THQ Nordic acquiring the Rad Rodgers IP can be found here: and

On a completely different note, doesn't this article give undue weight to lawsuits involving 3D Realms? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.55.50.10 (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Screwed Up Apogee

You do realize that there are two companies called Apogee Software with the SAME PURPOSE, right? One's 3D Realms, and the other is licensed by 3D Realms and called Apogee. How does that happen?

2600:1702:25A0:B070:603C:7B53:C68C:BB75 (talk) 02:30, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Requested changes

Hi all! On behalf of Scott Miller, I'd like to propose some updates to this article (and other 3D Realms-adjacent articles, like List of 3D Realms games). There are some inaccuracies that Miller noticed, and I've offered to bring them to the attention of the community. Since I've been in direct contact with Miller and he's offered to pay, this puts me in COI territory so I'm posting here rather than making the changes myself.

Here's the gist of it: Wikipedia is currently treating two companies called 3D Realms as a single entity. Mike Nielsen only acquired the rights to the brand in 2014. The rights to the existing IP stayed with Apogee, which in 2021 was relaunched as Apogee Entertainment. Nielsen clarifies in this Rock, Paper, Shotgun interview that he specifically purchased the 3D Realms brand and Apogee remained a separate entity. Miller also states in this GamesIndustry.biz article that the current 3D Realms is a separate company.

My suggestion would be to handle this like we handle Telltale Games: like how Telltale Games covers the original company and Telltale Games (2018–present) covers the new one, 3D Realms covers the original company while 3D Realms (2014–present) covers the new one. List of 3D Realms games would need to be updated to reflect this, as would the links in articles for games like Bombshell and Ion Fury. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Seeking clarification on some of those statements, as they could be somewhat misleading:

• "Miller also states ... that the current 3D Realms is a separate company." – This is technically right: 3D Realms Entertainment ApS is the current entity. Obviously, it needed a Danish one when Denmark became its domicile. However, the original 3D Realms entity (Apogee Software, Ltd.) is wholly owned by the new 3D Realms entity; 95% directly and 5% through Action Entertainment, Inc., which it owns entirely.[8]. Miller remained with that company until around 2020, credited in Ghostrunner as "Chief Creative Officer".
• "Mike Nielsen only acquired the rights to the brand in 2014. The rights to the existing IP stayed with Apogee ... Nielsen clarifies in this Rock, Paper, Shotgun interview" – This is not entirely true. Per above, Nielsen bought Apogee Software, Ltd. whole. In the interview with RPS, he said: "To clear that up, we have not purchased Apogee Software LLC. The confusion arises because 3D Realms, the legal entity of 3D Realms, is actually still called Apogee Software Limited.", which is not what you claim he said because we know that "Apogee Software LLC" was the company Terry Nagy established after he bought the trademark from Apogee Software, Ltd./3D Realms in 2008. Per Polygon: "Teenage friend Terry Nagy, the longtime colleague of Broussard and Miller, had purchased the rights to the Apogee name in 2008, shortly before the company filed for bankruptcy, along with the rights to Rise of the Triad and a handful of other games. The Apogee that exists today is Apogee Software, LLC, not to be confused with the original company, Apogee Software, Ltd."[9]
• "... Apogee, which in 2021 was relaunched as Apogee Entertainment." – The Apogee that was relaunched here was Apogee Software, LLC; according to Game Developer, this happened only after Nagy brought Miller into the company.[10] I am aware that the two Apogee Softwares are often confused (cf. above discussions), but sources are rather clear that they were, legally and functionally, separate companies and co-existed with different managements for at least five years before Miller sold off his and a further six/seven until Miller switched.

Now regarding the suggested action itself: Yes, I think a split between new and old 3D Realms could be done in theory, but how do reliable sources treat the matter? Also, why would 2014 be the cutoff point if Miller remained at the company post-sale? Companies being sold is quite common and rarely warrants a new article. Furthermore, 3D Realms Entertainment ApS was only incorporated in May 2015.[11] IceWelder [✉] 17:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

IceWelder, thanks for the replies. I'm not terribly well-versed in Apogee/3D Realms' history and I already knew it was complicated before taking on this, so those are probably mistakes on my part. I can ask Miller for some clarification, as he indicated he's willing to release relevant documentation to clear up any confusion. As for the article title, I just chose "2014-present" because that's when the acquisition took place, wasn't aware it was incorporated in 2015. I'll do some more digging once I get the chance later today. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that the current article isn't as clear as it could be about when it's talking about Apogee Ltd vs. Apogee LLC, so no matter what that should get cleared up. It's definitely messy having two companies with the same name, one of which licensed bits from the other and which shared employees (Miller, at minimum). I know I need to go check that nothing from Apogee Entertainment leaked into List of 3D Realms games due to naming confusion! If we were going to split it into two articles, I'd do it like we have now: article 1 = Apogee Software Ltd./3D Realms/Apogee Software ApS, and article 2 = Apogee Software LLC/Apogee Entertainment, and I'd name them as they are, article 1 = 3D Realms (since that's the brand name commonly used) and article 2 = Apogee Entertainment. I appreciate the argument that the "modern" 3D Realms isn't the same thing as the original, but it is the same actually, since the modern company bought the original entirely and continued using the brand name. --PresN 03:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I've asked Miller for clarification on what became of Apogee Software Ltd. and I'm just waiting on a response. He expressed to me that his primary concern is just that we're not distinguishing the old 3D Realms (Apogee) from the new 3D Realms well, which is muddying the history and making it unclear who made what. Splitting was just a suggestion to make the distinction clearer—we can probably do something like the Sonic Team/Sonic Team USA case at Sonic Team where we distinguish via two sections. I'd say the first section could be called "Apogee Software" and cover "Background", "The Apogee Model", and "3D Realms", and the second could be called "3D Realms Entertainment" and cover "New ownership" and "Acquisition by Embracer Group".

As for sources, I found two good sources (Bit-Tech and Eurogamer) referring to the Nielsen-owned 3D Realms as a new/relaunched company. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I think nobody is denying that the current and former 3D Realms are different, but only in the same way that 3D Realms was no longer the same after closing up shop in 2009, safe only for Miller still being on board. This was seemingly a non-issue while Miller was still with the Danish company and until the 3D Realms back catalog was sold to Apogee Entertainment. Arguing that no one from the current 3D Realms worked on the older games might be technically right, but you could say the same about Rockstar North, id Software, and especially Nintendo. Yet, in those cases we also recognize a continuous business. Companies tend to change over time, so we are somewhat discussing the Ship of Theseus. IceWelder [✉] 21:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, in my conversations with Miller, it seems that he cares about the distinction now because he's no longer involved with the Danish company. What he's said to me is pretty similar to what he wrote in this this 2022 blog post. I think we could help resolve this by adding it as an attributed opinion, something across the lines of:

In 2022, Miller publicly distanced himself from the Embracer-owned 3D Realms. He said that "3D Realms no longer has any link to the past, other than in name only" because he was no longer there to help design and fund games.

Regardless, there definitely is a distinction between Apogee Software Ltd. (the original entity, which went out of business in 2009 and was acquired in 2014) and 3D Realms Entertainment ApS (the new entity, incorporated in 2015 after the acquisition) that isn't clear currently. We do have the sources to clarify this, so I don't see why we shouldn't! Something across the lines of:

Following the acquisition, 3D Realms was relaunched in October 2014, and incorporated as 3D Realms Entertainment ApS in 2015.

could work. Add in that Miller and Nagy reacquired the Apogee name from 3D Realms in 2021 (Nagy didn't acquire the Apogee name in 2008 as the article says, he merely had the license to use it; Miller mentions in GamesIndustry.biz and his blog post that he and Nagy got the rights back in 2021) and I think we'll be good.

(As an aside, this article also needs a {{More citations needed}} tag—there are massive swaths of text that are unsourced.)

JOEBRO⁶⁴ 22:38, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Alright, here's a clear list of changes based on my now-complete research. I apologize for not formatting it like this earlier, IceWelder and PresN—this is the first and only time I'll ever do COI editing, and Miller didn't provide me with any text or sources other than what his issues were, so I was a little confused at first. Everything here is backed by a good source and I've done my best to remain neutral.

1. In the second paragraph of the lede, change "the "Apogee Software" name and logo were sold to Terry Nagy in 2008" to "the "Apogee Software" name, library, and logo were licensed to Terry Nagy in 2008"
2. In the third paragraph of the lede, modify (added content in italics): "Miller remained an advisor for the company until 2021, when he and Nagy acquired the Apogee brand and relaunched Apogee Entertainment."
3. In the first paragraph of "New ownership (2014–2021)", add after the first sentence, "3D Realms was relaunched in October 2014, and incorporated as 3D Realms Entertainment ApS in 2015. Mike Nielsen, the founder and chairman of SDN Invest, became the new chief executive officer of 3D Realms, headquartered in Aalborg, Denmark. Miller remained with the company as a creative consultant, while Apogee Software LLC retained the license to the Apogee brand and library."
4. At the end of the subsection "New ownership (2014–2021)", add the line "In 2021, Miller and Nagy acquired the Apogee name from 3D Realms and relaunched Apogee Software LLC as Apogee Entertainment. In 2022, Miller stated in a blog post that he was now uninvolved with 3D Realms and that "[the company] no longer has any link to the past, other than in name only" because he was no longer there to help design and fund games."
5. Definitely add a {{More citations needed}} tag; from my read, the entirety of the "3D Realms (1996–2009)" subsection is unsourced, and I noticed several unsourced statements in the following two subsections.
6. Maybe split the section "History" into two sections: "Apogee Software", which comprises the "Background", "The Apogee Model (1987–1996)", "3D Realms (1996–2009)", and "Corporate restructuring, legal disputes (2009–2014)" subsections; and "3D Realms Entertainment", which comprises the "New ownership (2014–2021)" and "Acquisition by Embracer Group (2021–present)".

And there you go! I think these should be things everyone can agree on. Again, I apologize for not being as clear and my mistakes earlier. Let me know if there's any concerns or objections. (All this work for a free copy of Turbo Overkill.)

(as an aside, from my research, it looks like this article's a fair bit out of date, as well—they got sued by Gearbox again in 2020 and hired Devolver alumnus Justin Burnham this year. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 23:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Just implemented this, plus some cleanup and bringing in refs from List of 3D Realms games - I agree, it's an improvement. --PresN 18:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks PresN and IceWelder! I think we should be all good now. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

References