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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tabu Makiadi (talk | contribs) at 06:36, 10 December 2024. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5
Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)
P = passes
F = fails 		opposing votes
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0
supporting votes
 – – – – F F F F F F
1 – – – F F F F F F F
2 – – F F F F F F F F
3 – F F F F F F F F F
4 P P P F F F F F F F
5 P P P P F F F F F F
6 P P P P F F F F F F
7 P P P P P F F F F F
8 P P P P P P F F F F
9 P P P P P P F F F F
  1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
    1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
    2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
    3. Have at least 4 participants.
  2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
    1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
    2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
  3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

  • 15 days ago is: 10:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
  • 7 days ago is: 10:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:


The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures
Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Sure, musicians are still within the +/- 2% cushion, and jazz doesn't always get enough play. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
  1. I've been away for a few months, but I am going to step back here and question why a founder of a non-vital label is that important. At first I put this question in the oppose section. Then, I saw Berry Gordy is vital and Motown isn't. My question is whether we really need a behind the scenes guy rather than a jazz artist that might need a push over the hump.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't participate on the People list as much; I just saw one section still needs brainstorming and thought I'd help vote & close in the meantime.
    You raise a good point though. Maybe the best thing would be to propose another jazz musician here and/or some record labels under Companies? It might also convince some people if you mention this proposal in the new one. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To philosophers
  1. Support move to philosophers. I only skimmed the article, but sounds like he wrote rather than led a religious community, and his political programme seems more secular. It doesn't sound like he had much real political authority or success though (similar to Plato in Syracuse). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep
Discuss
  • Whatever the outcome, the article definitely makes it sound like his Buddhism was just a late-life interest and incidental to his career. So he probably shouldn't be grouped under Buddhist religious figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ibn Muqla  5 to Persian artists

PASSED
Added 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per Brittanica, this 9th century Persian calligrapher invented naskh (script), tawqi and thuluth, and was thrice vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate. starship.paint (RUN) 07:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, and agree with move to Artists (at least for now). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif  5, Olga Brusnikina  5, and Anastasia Davydova  5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes  5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose, more on the basis of the proposal. Neither current article quality nor interwikis are one of our criteria, though both are good metrics to factor in. I could see both metrics being biased against figures popular outside the English-speaking world though. I've already discussed above how rejecting articles that are currently stubs / starts could be self-defeating. Sports figures are still within our +/- 2% cushion too so I don't think we need to cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Kander and Ebb  5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Support add, oppose removal
  1. Weird vote, I know, and I've never even heard of these two. But they've already made it to VA5, and we're still within the cushion for Musicians, so I say make the overlap explicit on the list. If their articles should be consolidated, then that needs to be decided at the actual article level. Maybe seeing the redundancy clearly on the list will stimulate that (which is the ultimate goal of VA). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Bryan brothers  5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Aurangzebra-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support add, oppose removal
  1. Same logic as above; redundancies like this should probably be resolved at the article level. And as long as there's room, making them explicit on the list may help stimulate that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Christian Samuel Weiss

PASSED
Removed 4-1. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Only three paragraphs.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Thi (talk) 20:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Soft oppose, mainly on the proposal basis. See above comments for why I don't like using current article quality as a measure of vitality. Plus we're still technically a few people under quota for Scientists, and last time I checked (months ago granted), we should probably cut from Physicists if anywhere. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. If we're going to have current national leaders, this guy seems pretty notable. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Friedrich Ebert

He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support
  1. As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I don't especially prioritize the Leaders section, but let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Georgi Plekhanov

Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support
  1. As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Sure, let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo  5

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning  5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Very soft oppose, if only because we're still under-quota for Miscellaneous. For all the over-representation of tech elsewhere, hacker/activist strikes me as an interesting category for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Bad Brains

STALLED
Not added 1-1, influence noted, no mention of H.R. (musician) as another possibility. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Known for influencing Foo Fighters  5, Beastie Boys  5, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers  5 etc. Known for combining Reggae  4 with Hardcore punk  5 and Alternative metal. It is also known for being a Rastafari  4 band, and one of the earliest Hardcore punk  5 pioneers.

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Not a well-known band and some of the bands they've influenced are likely to also be removed pbp 13:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses  5 or Nirvana (band)  4, so the claim isn't really lost.
    I think Bad Brains are vital in the same reason on why we list Black Flag (band)  5, Minor Threat  5, or Dead Kennedys  5. Is there something that I'm missing to why they aren't vital? 49p (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Musicians and bands is very bloated right now and the bands that didn't achieve long-term success or have many chart-topping hits are either not going to be removed or not going to be added in the first place pbp 13:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Agüeybaná II and Cunhambebe

FAILED
Not removed 2-2. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Both only have three interwikis. Wish I can think of another historical native Brazilian leader to replace the latter, but I can't. The Taíno still have Hatuey  5 though.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. We should probably have more Native American leaders, not fewer pbp 13:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose, primarily on the proposal basis. See above comments for why I don't like using interwikis to decide vitality, especially for figures outside the English-speaking world. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Willie O'Ree

First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, we still have a little cushion in sports figures, and I like hockey. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose, Larry Kwong isn't listed who is at a similar level of notability. Sahaib (talk) 21:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Vito Volterra

PASSED
Added 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarded as a founder of Functional analysis  4. Known for multiple equations, including Lotka–Volterra equations  5.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 02:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Sure, we're still under quota in Scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Leah Keshet with D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson

PASSED
Swapped, 5-0 to add, 4-1 to remove. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thompson is far more notable under the topic of mathematical and theoretical biology. Well known for On Growth and Form, his work has influenced incredibly notable academics including Alan Turing  3, Claude Lévi-Strauss  4, Le Corbusier  4, and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe  4.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 03:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Support add, oppose removal
  1. We're still under quota for Scientists, and within that topic, Physicists are over-represented. Why not keep both? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams

Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support swap, let's go ahead and push this across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Peter Mansbridge

STALLED
Not added 2-0, open > 4 months. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Broadcast journalists and commentators is pretty American/Australian-centric at the moment, with most of the 80 articles listed being from either of the two countries. There currently isn't a Canadian/Canadian-based broadcast journalist in this category and I feel that Mansbridge is probably the most notable of them. To justify the lack of interwikis, many other journalists currently listed in this category also don't have much interwikis either.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Long career at the head of a major network, lots of awards, and the article is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Canada. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Marguerite Perey  5

PASSED
Added 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

French physicist best known for her discovery of Francium  4.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. She discovered an element, was nominated for a Nobel prize five times, and was the first woman elected to the Académie des Sciences. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per Grnrchst. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support, we are a little Physicist heavy, but we're still under quota, coverage is biased towards men, and discovering an element seems plenty notable to me. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Maria Margarethe Kirch

PASSED
Added 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

German astronomer who is regarded as one of the most prolific women scientists of the 18th century.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:0, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
  2. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support: woman astronomer, pre-1800s, and we're still under quota / the +/- 2% cushion. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove István Fekete  5

Obscure Hungarian children's author, article does not make him seem vital enough. Writers is over quota as well.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. Magda Szabó, Antal Szerb, and Sándor Márai are better bets to join Imre Kertész  5 and Jókai as far as Hungarian writers go. J947 ‡ edits 09:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Changing my vote to support removal. Makkool (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support, let's go ahead and push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
His book Vuk is very popular and has been translated to many languages. It might be considered an enduring classic only in its origin country, but I would still keep this to lessen Western European and US bias. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Jean Eustache  5

STALLED
Not removed 2-1, open > 4 months. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Seems to be most well-known for directing one acclaimed feature film, making only one other feature-length film and several little-known short films. That seems way off vital level.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 20:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. 105th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator [5]. We list 433 directors. With that many slots, I think everyone in the top 150-200 deserves a spot (and for the most part, we do this; I took a quick look through the list and we list almost every director above Eustache with a few exceptions such as Robert Altman proposed above). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Would it be reasonable to list The Mother and the Whore instead, since most of his vitality seems to be linked to that film alone? Iostn (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Minimum appearances for VA5 entertainers

FAILED
Not implemented 2-3, counter-examples listed with caution against over-reliance on narrow metrics. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose the following bare minimums:

  • A film actor needs to appear in at least five films
  • A television actor or host needs to have done it for at least three seasons
  • A director needs to have directed at least five films or at least a dozen television episodes
  • Producers or other crew...same as directors

pbp 20:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 20:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seems like a safe minimum. I don't think a vital person that has fewer than this could be listed. 49p (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I'm not really sure that we need hard quotas for this. This is a reasonable standard by all means but there are exceptions that make sense and if there are any exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a point to codifying a quota. Two examples off the top of my head that I don't think anyone would vote to remove: Jean Vigo  5 is an extremely influential French New Wave inspiration who is considered the 44th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator. He only directed 4 films (and only 1 of these was a full-length feature film). Another example is James Dean  5. He was an iconic actor and is still extremely well-known to this day but has only appeared in 3 credited roles before his untimely death. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Vitality is relative, a VA5 topic should be taken out due to voters feeling that there are 50000 more vital ones. They can be vital for a variety of reasons, and any hard prescriptive stat requirement could turn out to be prematurely thought out (even if better stats often but not always indicate more vitality).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I think a statistical minimum for inclusion on the list is not a good idea. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

To @Aurangzebra: and @LaukkuTheGreit:, I ask this: how many fewer entertainers should VA5 have, and what's your plan to reduce it to that number? There's consensus that entertainers are greatly bloated, esp. in proportion to VA4, but what's the plan to clean it up? pbp 15:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: I actually did have an idea for this. I think the hard part about deciding who to remove is that we don't know every person listed at first glance, so we have to go out of their way to skim their Wikipedia article, assess the stats, and come up with a judgment before we decide to make a proposal. This process takes a long time. What I've explored doing (I am currently doing this with American and Canadian modern authors and I will have a batch of proposals out soon) is passing the entire list to an LLM service (I use GPT-4o through my work) and asking it to give a few paragraphs of summary on their biography, accomplishments, their legacy, and why people would consider them notable. It is surprisingly easy to see if something is a candidate for removal from these bite-sized summaries that take a few seconds to skim through. In my opinion, we should do this for all our VA5 articles (this may be easier for People as opposed to concepts), post these somewhere, and have people skim through them to get an idea of what we can remove.
I may try doing this tonight for actors and posting it on some public repository somewhere (maybe my user page) so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar pbp 18:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar pbp 19:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've been waiting/hoping that User:Zar2gar1 (or someone else) eventually makes the stat-based vitality estimator that has occasionally been talked about. Although VA participants, including me in my oppose vote just above, have cautioned against overreliance on stats, there is still a notable correlation; the way I envision the estimator to be used is to quickly find articles with weak or strong vitality claims, with nominators focusing more on the claims than stats.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add John C. Bogle

Founder of the The Vanguard Group  5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, we could use more business people (under Miscellaneous), and while he didn't invent passive-investment, he possibly did more than any one person to make it so dominant today. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Espionage additions

Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf  5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.

Add Eli Cohen

Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Chevalier d'Éon

18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Oleg Penkovsky

Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.

Support
  1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move Mata Hari  5 to espionage

PASSED
Moved 5–0. Makkool (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Mata Hari is currently listed under dancers, but while most of her enduring fame wouldn't have been as widespread if she wasn't a spy, she was definitely also notable as a dancer. I don't have an opinion on this so I will not vote.

Support
  1. J947 ‡ edits 06:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Most definitely being a spy merits her being on the list more than her dancing career. Makkool (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. --Thi (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Strong support, good catch. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt

MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.

George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Sure, let's push this proposal across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Kai Cenat

STALLED
Not added 2-1, open > 4 months. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposing because a couple of editors preferred adding Cenat to Web entertainers and internet personalities in my proposal to add IShowSpeed.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 15:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weak support Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. incredibly recent creator. Several better options then Cenat Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Carl Woese

Helped define Archaea  3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin  3, Francis Crick  4, and James Watson  4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis

Support
  1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Thomas Cavalier-Smith

Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria  4, Excavata  4, Cryptomonad  4, Chromalveolata  4, Chromista  5, Euglenozoa  4, Bikont  5, Radiolaria  5, Cercozoa  5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis

Support
  1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Armand Duplantis, possibly remove Renaud Lavillenie

PASSED
Swapped 6-1, some discussion of weighing world-records for athletes. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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He's only 24 but he has the last 9 world records in pole vault. Keep in mind that the 6 meter barrier in pole vault was considered an impossible feat until Sergey Bubka  4 finally broke it. A pole vault of 6 meters exactly would get you a gold at every single Olympics up to and including 2012. Duplantis' world record is 6.25m. This is a full 0.09 meters over the next best record (in a sport where <0.05 meters typically separates the best pole vaulters in competition). Even if Duplantis were to retire tomorrow, he would be VA5 material since he has already established himself as the greatest pole vaulter of all time.

If we must do a swap, I propose Renaud Lavillenie who held the world record before Duplantis. I personally do not want to remove him since he seems to be outclassed in every way by Duplantis. His only claim to fame was that he was the intermediate world record between Bubka and Duplantis but he only has 1 Olympic gold medal and 0 golds at the world championships. 3 male pole vaulters in VA5 may be a bit much and we definitely shouldn't be removing Sergey Bubka  4 who revolutionized the sport. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 03:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Both. J947 ‡ edits 21:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support add, weak support remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom. B3251(talk) 17:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Broke an world-record, is that it? Does not seem vital. The Blue Rider 16:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    He is the undisputed greatest pole vaulter of all time, he has the 9 best pole vault records of all time, he hasn't lost a pole vault competition in 5 years, and he has 2 Olympic and World golds. He is also only the 11th athlete ever to win gold at the youth, junior, and senior world championships. If you don't think that's sufficient for inclusion, then you'd have to remove half of the rest of the Athletics section too. I'm honestly not sure what else he can do at this point that would convince you to list him because he's done it all already. We list 91 Athletics athletes but even if we only listed the top 50, I believe he would merit a spot. It's also worth noting that we list Yelena Isinbayeva  5 who is his female counterpart (2 Olympic golds, 3 worlds, world record holder). Should we remove her too? Aurangzebra (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

FWIW, Lavillenie seems decidedly NOT VA5 to me. pbp 16:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, I change my mind and agree with you. If we included every athlete who had a world record at some point, we would have hundreds and that seems to be his only claim to fame. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See also my "effect of Olympics" thread below. We may need to have a larger discussion about how many world records or medals get you on pbp 00:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Were Duplantis not such a massive outlier Lavillenie would stand out. J947 ‡ edits 06:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He just set his 10th world record: [6] for anyone who thinks maybe a double digit number of world records hits the cusp but single digits don't. Aurangzebra (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Effect of 2024 Olympics on VA5 sports

Some other potential VA5 athletes named based on olympic performance. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Armand Duplantis is being proposed to be swapped in
  • Katie Ledecky, Simone Biles, and several Team USA male and female basketball players already were listed
  • Three other names I'd suggest are Emma McKeon, Léon Marchand and Sifan Hassan. McKeon is a swimmer with a ton of medals (one of seven Olympians in any sport at least fourteen, including six golds). Marchand was the breakout hometown hero of the past games, winning four golds. Hassan has six medals, including three golds, spanning four individual distances

pbp 19:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Luc Ferry  5

No info about any kind of influence he's had over philosophy, the section he is listed as vital under. He was also Minister for Youth, National Education and Research of France for two years, but that isn't exactly a super influential position that's enough to warrent inclusion, either. I imagine most of the interwikis are from his cabinet position, and pageviews are not that high either.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, article doesn't make him sound particularly impressive. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move Akira Mutō  5 to crimes against humanity (under "Miscellaneous")

PASSED
Moved 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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This seems even more clear-cut than Gilles de Rais, since the atrocities he is responsible for seem to be the only thing making him vital.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. --Thi (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Shireen Abu Akleh to journalists

Among the most notable journalists who have worked during the Israel-Palestine conflict, this would help reduce sysbias in that section

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. After some thought, sure, even though Writers & Journalists is still over-quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Carlo Ginzburg  5

PASSED
Added 4-0 to Historians. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Italian historian, best known as the author of The Cheese and the Worms, which has been called "probably the most popular and widely read work of microhistory".[1][2]

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Historians in general is too Anglocentric as it stands Iostn (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

References

  1. ^ Tristano, Richard M. (1996). "Microhistory and Holy Family Parish: Some Historical Considerations". U.S. Catholic Historian. 14 (3): 26.
  2. ^ Fox-Horton, Julie (November 2015). "Review of Ginzburg, Carlo, The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmos of a Sixteenth-Century Miller". H-Net Reviews. Retrieved May 10, 2019.
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Remove Sebastián Garcilaso de la Vega y Vargas

PASSED
Removed 4-1. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Lesser known explorer and conquistador. Seems to be most known as the father of Inca Garcilaso de la Vega  5.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Weak oppose, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and I'm not sure if he's genuinely not notable. His article may simply need more work. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Milton A. Rothman  5

Not much claim vitality. He's a professor who founded a sci-fi convention.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Definitely remove, let's push this across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Roger Mudd

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather  5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Never a long-term primary anchor as I recall and as I understand it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Throbbing Gristle

PASSED
Removed 4-1, with some discussion of other groups related to industrial music. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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To be fair, the band is influential to Industrial music (We don't list industrial in VA but it's definitely Noise music  5). But, this band is more of a niche act known for their harsh transgressive sound and is nothing more than a cult following.

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 23:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Noise is a far too marginal genre to list an artist from. I would support swapping this with Einstürzende Neubauten, as they are more influential in general in the electronic music genre. Makkool (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would support with a swap with Einstürzende Neubauten cause of the same reasons that you said. They have a more general influence and a better cross-genre appeal in their later years. 49p (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Neubauten are influential but I am highly skeptical of the claim they are moreso than TG (who preceded them), and I don't understand why the comparatively more niche (and more straightforwardly "noise") Merzbow  5 isn't being proposed before this, which I don't even necessarily support removing either. Iostn (talk) 16:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Not vital-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Throbbing Gristle are a rare type of artist that can be argued to be the primary progenitor of an entire genre (most of the other early industrial musicians were active after them, and there isn't really anyone before them who can be said to have been industrial before them), with industrial going on to be a widely expansive style that eventually covered more accessible and less avant-garde forms of music, via electro-industrial, industrial rock, industrial metal and others. Also its related to noise music certainly, but isn't really the same thing. Their ultimate influence goes far beyond cult following, with them ultimately having a greater influence on popular music than for example, Merzbow  5. Iostn (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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UK modern Christian leaders additions

There is a disproportionate amount of American Christian leaders, especially televangelists, in the religious leaders section. There's just a few people listed from the UK, even Australia has more. American Christians are surely influential in the global scene and more well-known figures, but I think we should have some more British people on that list for diversity's sake. I have here some suggestions to consider, not everyone needs to be added.

I also think we could spare to remove some of the televangelists to have more proportionality, we don't even have Televangelism  5 as a vital article. But that'll be a separate proposal.

Probably three or four of the modern American televangelists should be removed. Of these additions, I think one is fair, but all three is excessive. It bears mentioning that contemporary UK is largely a nation of non-adherents. pbp 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we would decide that just one is needed, then maybe we should choose to list the current Archbishop of Canterbury. Although Williams is arguably more famous than Welby. Makkool (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Justin Welby

The currect Archbishop of Canterbury, and the leader of the worldwide Anglican church. Has focused in social justice and modern challenges in his leadership.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, but ironically looks like he's not going to be at Canterbury much longer. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add John Sentamu

A former Archbishop of York, the second highest leader in Church of England. Originally from Uganda, he was the first black Archbishop of York. An influential figure in the UK, and an out-spoken critic against African dictators.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure, we're still a bit below quota for religious figures, and if we allow BLPs for other topics, why not here? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. It doesn't feel right to support a #2 in this regard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Rowan Williams

A former Archbishop of Canterbury. A respected theologian, public intellectual and Christian writer in the UK, a still active commentator today.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Of the three proposed additions, I consider he to be the most worthy pbp 22:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Surprised we don't list him honestly; I'm neither British nor Christian, but I've definitely read about him. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Joel Osteen  5

Doesn't seem any more vital to me than Rick Warren pbp 19:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Senior pastor of one of the largest megachurches in the US, gets more attendance than Rick Warren's church. "One of the more prominent figures associated with prosperity theology", from the article. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We have both Osteen and Oral Roberts representing prosperity gospel. If we keep Osteen, we should maybe consider removing Roberts pbp 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If prosperity gospel should be represented by only one person, then Roberts should definitely stay. He is a too foundational figure to be not listed. My view is Osteen would be the best to represent a contemporary televangelist. Makkool (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Why only one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per makkool. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Moving pirates, outlaws, highwaymen etc from "rebels, revolutionaries and activists" to Misellaneous#Crime

As it stands the activist section seems to be the default place to dump entries like these, although I am pretty sure crime makes a lot more sense. I've finally attempted to go through and grab the various pirate/outlaw entries listed there and proposed places to fit them under the Crime section. "Piracy" currently does not exist as a subsection under crime, but you can consider creating that as part of this proposal.

Piracy

Thievery, robbery and hijacking

Organized crime

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
  1. Blackbeard is Level 4, so for him a proposal needs to be opened on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Crime isn't even a section at V4 so I'm not proposing it be moved there Iostn (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're right! Pablo Escobar  4 is in businesspeople. That's a tangle to sort. Makkool (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein for Albert II, Prince of Monaco

IMPLIED WITHDRAWN
Initial premise of proposal corrected; remaining discussion simply noted other rulers from Monaco. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Liechtenstein has a higher population than Monaco, but is not represented by anyone whilst Monaco currently has two Albert II, Prince of Monaco and his father Rainier III, Prince of Monaco. Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein is the richest and arguably the most constitutionally powerful monarch in Europe (aside from the Pope) per the 2003 Liechtenstein constitutional referendum. He has also reigned longer than Albert II and whilst his son does act as regent, he himself acted as regent for his father. Sahaib (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Swap iJustine for El Rubius

The Web entertainers and internet personalities section does not have enough non-English speaking creators, the only one being Germán Garmendia. Rubius started his channel in 2006 and has over 40 million subscribers on his main channel and 12 million on his second channel. He also has one of the most-followed Twitch channels in the world. iJustine does not seem to have as much long-term significance being known for the 2007 video 300-page iPhone bill which may have been notable at the time but I doubt that many would recall it. Sahaib (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Listing nom's vote explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I wouldn't be opposed to removing iJustine (her main notability is that she was a pioneer in lifecasting and live streaming in general but her impact hasn't really stood the test of time). But I would be opposed to adding El Rubius. I feel like Youtuber subscriber and Twitch follower counts don't mean much for vitality. When you look at the List of most-subscribed YouTube channels and List of most-followed Twitch channels, I guarantee you that there will be many, many names on there you won't recognize at all no matter how terminally online you are. In fact, there are two Spanish Twitch streamers who are ahead of El Rubius (AuronPlay and Ibai Llanos). It doesn't make sense to add him when we recently rejected IShowSpeed who truly has an international audience and attracts massive crowds that, as two examples, have shut down entire malls in Malaysia [7] and blocked off entire streets in Norway [8]. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a small correction, El Rubius and other Spanish-speaking YouTubers do have an international audience, there are 21 countries that have Spanish as an official language so I would say that is quite international, plus you might not recognize them because of cisbias, but they are pretty well-known. The Blue Rider 15:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's true but I still cannot justify adding streamers like this who have virtually no presence outside of the Spanish-speaking world (even factoring in sysbias, you can reason this out by the fact that he doesn't offer any content in languages outside Spanish nor does he provide closed captioning in other languages) when we quickly reject other streamers who can draw insane crowds no matter what country they go to.
    In general, I would also say content creation on Youtube/Twitch is a finicky business. It is very easy for your audience to outgrow you as they age or you yourself to outgrow what you do as you burn out/realize you've grown out of what made you famous and want to make an unpopular pivot. People who were considered superstars just a decade ago are no longer relevant (an easy example is the aforementioned Germán Garmendia). Streamers or creators can take over the Internet for a couple of years and make it seem like they're never going to drop off in relevance but it is very rare to find content creators whose relevance has stood the test of time.
    This is not to say that El Rubius has been affected by this. It seems like he is still relevant today. But my point is that we need to hold Youtube content creators to a higher standard. If we judged VA5 based on popularity/most followers/most subscribers, this list would be 80% content creators most of us would have never heard of before. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

New religious movement figures cleanup

Remove Joseph Kibweteere

PASSED
Removed 4-0. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Probably listed because he was leader of the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, responsible for one of the largest ever mass suicides, but he doesn't seem to be that vital in his own right, outside of the group. I don't even know if the group itself would be vital.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Stephen McNallen  5 for Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson

Stephen McNallen is an influential figure in white supremacist Norse neopaganism, which is societally marginal and not even dominant among white supremacists. Sveinbjoern founded the Ásatrúarfélagið, which is the largest neopagan religious movement in the world in proportion to the number of followers in its country of origin, with over 1% of the Icelandic population being Asatru, which I think easily places him among the most influential Neopagan religious figures.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support swap Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Support removal, oppose addition. Ásatrúarfélagið has under 6000 followers. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's over 1% of the Icelandic population, which makes it the only country in the world where a form of neopaganism is practiced by a significant proportion of the population. In addition, both of the other neopagan figures listed are Wiccan, and removing alone would leave the list without any form of reconstructionist religion, which is arguably one of the most significant recent religious phenomena. The Icelandic Asatru Association is also more broadly influential over Heathenry (new religious movement)  5 as a whole, regardless of the low population of Iceland itself limiting its membership numbers. Iostn (talk) 19:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Yahweh ben Yahweh for Black Hebrew Israelites

An obscure figures compared to the movement he represented, which isn't listed. Add Black Hebrew Israelites to "new religious movements" under philosophy and religion.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Ira Losco

Losco is probably the only Maltese musician that could make the list (though I believe Aidan who has been dominating the charts in Malta for the last 5 years could make it in the future). She has competed in Eurovision twice (the first time coming 2nd), won numerous awards and is frequently described as Malta's queen of pop. She would probably go in the Popular music: General section as she almost exclusively sings in English (one of the official languages of Malta). Sahaib (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Make vote by nom explicit. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Politician/leader changes

As it stands there are plenty of major omissions of major figures on the politicians and leaders section, in favour of more questionable entries and attempts to cover as many as independent states (including microstates) as possible, even at the expense of important leaders from elsewhere. Likely the section quota needs to be increased anyway, but even until then there's a lot of potential improvement to be made.

Swap Milton Cato  5 for Edward Seaga

Prime minister for under five years of a country with a population of ~100k (presumably even lower when he was leader) versus someone who was a leading figure in Jamaican politics for over 30 years, prime minister for nine, and as a record label owner, was influential in developing Jamaica's cultural power overseas. Arguably served as the foil to Michael Manley  5.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose removing Milton Cato because he was very important to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and is seemingly part of the reason they are a separate country. Neutral on adding Seaga. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Swap Lyudvig Chibirov  5 for Ebrahim Raisi

Stub article on the president of a barely recognized state with a population of ~50k vs the president of Iran, with a population of nearly 90 million at what has been a time of major international crisis directly involving the country.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support both per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, although he wasn't president for very long, Raisi's presidency was a very dynamic one, especially on the diplomatic front. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Sabah Al-Salim Al-Sabah  5 for Ismail Haniyeh

Head of state of Kuwait (a small country) for a decently long length of time, but no indication that he was that internationally important vs the recently killed leader of Hamas  5

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Al-Sabah's article does not indicate any lasting importance, while Haniyeh was definitely an important politician. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Although, I feel like Yahya Sinwar would be more important to include, and I don't think Hamas is important enough for two politicians. Support for now, but I would rather add Sinwar than Haniyeh. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Haniyeh was in a more senior poistion, Sinwar I think was more strongly linked to the October 7 attack/current war specifically to my knowledge Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. We already list several Al-Sabah rulers, including the sheikhs that established the country and the king during the Iraqi occupation. Hamas also definitely transformed under Haniyeh. I get the logic of suggesting Sinwar, but like Iostn, I think he might be more fitting as a military commander. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Janet Jagan  5 for Gabriel Boric

Prime Minister of Guyana (pop ~800k) for ~9 months, and president for less than two, vs the current President of one of the most most developed countries in South America, coming to power on a platform of constitutional reform. Also note that Guyana, despite its low population, has five different politicians listed.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree, if we're listing current world leaders, Boric should definitely be there if only because he arguably ended the post-Pinochet era in Chile. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Ati George Sokomanu  5 for B. J. Habibie

First (ceremonial) president of Vanuatu, with a population of 300,000 and very little international influence. I wasn't sure wherever to nominate him or Walter Lini  5 initially, but Lini seems more important and the presidency is described as "mostly ceremonial". Habibie served as president for only a short period of time, but in one of the world's most populous countries (Indonesia), and was reponsible for administring over the end of the 30 year long New Order (Indonesia)  5, giving him extra significance.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Tosiwo Nakayama  5 for Tomiichi Murayama

First president of a country with a population of ~100k (and at the time even lower) versus one of Japan's only non-LDP prime minister's since the 1950s, and the first one to ever formally address Japan's imperialist past. While he had a short term of office, that is common for Japanese prime ministers and also I decided to include him over Morihiro Hosokawa for the time being as he seems ultimately more impactful and better remembered.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss


Swap Mohammad-Javad Bahonar  5 for Hassan Nasrallah

A guy who was prime minister for not even a month vs the just killed long-time leader of Hezbollah  5

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support add, prefer moving Bahonar to Rebel / Activist instead of removing? He may not have been prime-minister long, but he had a major part in organizing the revolution prior to that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Carlos Camacho  5 for Guy Verhofstadt

First elected governor of Guam is reasonably important on a local level, but he was only in power for 5.5 years total and Guam isn't even an independent country, and only has a population of ~170k. There are much more populous US states we have no politicians from.

As for Guy Verhofstadt, we have no post-WW2 prime ministers from Belgium for some reason (only monarchs) despite it being an influential European country, and he is possibly one of the most internationally influential ones, and is now one of the biggest figures in the administration of the European Union.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson  5 for Davíð Oddsson

Of the three Icelandic figures listed, all are presidents, which isn't the actual head of government, as opposed to the prime minister. Both of the others have pretty good claims to vitality despite Iceland's low population, with Sveinn Björnsson  5 being the first president, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir  5 the first elected female president in the world. Ólafur doesn't really have much other than serving a long time. Davíð Oddsson, the longest serving PM, makes a lot more sense as someone who was largely responsible for Iceland's neoliberal reforms, which later contributed to the Icelandic financial crisis.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Lu Wei (politician)  5 for Wang Huning

Some guy who seems to be mostly well-known for being convicted of corruption vs the "Grey Eminence of the CCP"

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Really good find, Wang is (probably?) one of the leading theorists in the Chinese government and his America Against America also arguably makes him the 21st-century, Chinese equivalent to de Tocqueville. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap John Swan (Bermudian politician)  5 for Nayib Bukele

WITHDRAWN
Other discussion opened with more participants

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Premier (albeit for a long time) of a non-independent overseas territory with a population of ~60k vs one of the most notorious leaders of Central America today

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Viktor Zubkov  5 for Sergey Lavrov

A Putin loyalist who filled the office of Prime Minister (which is not the most powerful position in Russia) for a short length of time vs the "the longest-serving foreign minister since the Tsarist era" (20 years). ALso notorious for his role in the Russo-Ukrainian War  5.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support; Lavrov has been a household in Russian diplomacy during the Putin era. Idiosincrático (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Matsutarō Shōriki  5 for Kakuei Tanaka

I'm not sure why Shoriki is listed, his political importance seems to be in becoming the first chairman of the Japanese Atomic Energy Commission, but it seems his business activities are of more importance, but he isn't listed there, and they don't really seem important on an international level (outside of Japan) to list, even if he was relatively influential. Tanaka, OTOH, outside of being prime minister of Japan for 2.5 years, was for a longtime one of the most influyential figures of the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)  5, Japan's dominant political party, nicknamed the "shadow shogun".

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Chantharath  5 for Lê Duẩn

Chantharath was the king of a little-known Thai vassal state in South East Asia during the 19th century, and his article is a stub with no indication of lasting influence. Lê Duẩn was one of the most important political figures in post-colonial Vietnam, being the successor to Ho Chi Minh  4 and the first leader of a unified Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam War  4.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Hans Geiger

"He is best known as the co-inventor of the detector component of the Geiger counter and for the Geiger–Marsden experiment which discovered the atomic nucleus".

Support
  1. As nominator. To physicists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Notable omission Aurangzebra (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support, even if the Scientist section is a bit heavy on Physicists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Carl Zeiss  5

PASSED
Added 4-0 to Businesspeople. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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One of the most prominent scientific instrument manufacturers in history. Founded Carl Zeiss AG in 1846.

Support
  1. As nominator. To businesspeople. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Sure, could probably work under businesspeople or inventors. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Jean-Baptiste de La Salle  5

PASSED
Added 4-0 to Educators. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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French priest and educational reformer. Very well known across the Catholic world for his role in the development of modern schooling systems. See: Lasallian educational institutions.

Support
  1. As nominator. To educators. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Good find, and we're technically still not at the quota for Social scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Swap Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands for Mark Rutte

It would make more sense as the Dutch government website states that "in the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited". Sahaib (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
Oppose
  1. Oppose swap (but support add); Willem-Alexander is still notable as a figurehead and we have Elizabeth II  4 as VA4. In general though the politician/leader section, at least for contemporary figures, is overall very lacking and Mark Rutte, the longest-serving Dutch Prime Minister, should definitely be listed. Iostn (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add yoga teachers

Yoga teachers are currently a major omission. I suggest we could add these to Miscellaneous/Health and fitness, if they get enought support. Miscellaneous is under-quota, so we could add more than one of these.

Add B. K. S. Iyengar  5

PASSED
Added 4–0. Makkool (talk) 22:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Described in the article that he is "credited with popularizing yoga, first in India and then around the world". Very influential in establishing yoga as a popular form of exercise, free from its roots in Indian philosphy.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makes sense. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Not sure about the others, but this guy seems vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion
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Add K. Pattabhi Jois

Developer of ashtanga yoga. Along with Iyengar, one of the most instrumental people establishing modern yoga as exercise.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Yogi Bhajan

Introduced kundalini yoga to the West. Also a influential spiritual teacher and entrepreneur.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Bikram Choudhury

Controversial Indian-American yoga teacher, the inventor of hot yoga.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Musician removals

Remove Bai Hong  5, Gong Qiuxia  5, Wu Yingyin  5, and Yao Lee  5

Located in Popular music > Non-English language popular music > Chinese languages (Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese). All 1930s-40s Chinese popular music singers that were part of the Seven Great Singing Stars; all seven are currently VA which is pretty unnecessary and a few of the lesser remembered singers can be removed.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Remove Teng Yu-hsien  5 from Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople

Prominent in Taiwanese folk music. This, however, is very niche and his influence seems to be minimal outside of Taiwan.

Support
  1. As nom. B3251(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add dieting figures

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Michio Kushi

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Walter Willett

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Ann Wigmore

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Donald Barthelme  5

The Writers page is still well over the quota, so some cuts are needed. Only a few of his works have articles, and none of those articles have any interwikis. This author has no sourced claim to any major lasting influence, and he only won a few awards, which we don't list every winner of. I do not see any reason to keep him on the list.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Deferring to nom on this one, section is over quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Lesya Ukrainka

One writer addition for a change. The article calls her "one of Ukrainian literature's foremost writers"

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seems important enough. 75 interwikis, High-Importance to WikiProject Russia and Top-Importance to WikiProject Ukraine. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Iostn (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Nicolas Bourbaki  5

PASSED
Added 4-0 to Mathematicians. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We have many collectives and groups in music and visual arts, so I think it's reasonable to add the most well-known collective in all of mathematics.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong support, can second that Bourbaki is a big deal, and not just in France. Good catch (and out-of-the-box thinking on the super-group point). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Tanni Grey-Thompson

After seeing her featured in the BBC's Icons documentary series, I think that she is a vital Paralympian, campaigner and even a Dame. Though she is not a finalist for her category, she is in the four chosen nominees.

Support
  1. As nominator. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Remove Thin Lizzy  5 and/or The Pogues  5

Both these bands stick out like sore thumbs in their respective groups and they feel like they were just added to hit some sort of geographical diversity quota but I'm not sure Ireland is the best representative for that (and at least in the hard rock category, we have 1 Brazilian and 3 Scandinavian bands).

Thin Lizzy is, for most intents and purposes, a "one-hit wonder" band with The Boys are Back in Town. According to Spotify, this track has almost 5x more plays over their next most popular one. Arguably their second most famous track, Whiskey in the Jar, is a cover of an Irish folk song and not even the most popular cover (that honor would go to Metallica's version which has 5x more plays on Spotify and won a Grammy). Obviously, number of streams isn't the only factor to determine notability; we include groups like Death (metal band)  5, for example, whose 800,000 monthly listeners pales in comparison to Thin Lizzy's 3.5 millions. But at least Death is a pioneer in the fairly influential death metal subgenre. Thin Lizzy isn't really a pioneer in anything, none of their commercial numbers are that impressive (no platinum certifications in Ireland, the UK, or the US across any of their studio albums), and they haven't achieved much critical success as evidenced by their album ratings on RateYourMusic. Their legacy section indicates that they were respected and influential to some of their peers but this is also the case for a wide variety of other bands we don't list.

The Pogues are an Irish punk band that seem to be even less notable than Thin Lizzy. Low Spotify streaming numbers (1.5 million listeners a month), no particularly famous tracks besides a low-tier Christmas song, no major commercial or critical success, and no legacy section on their article. Their lede states that they reinvigorated traditional Irish music but I don't think that by itself is adequate for VA5 contention.

Maybe this is American bias but I don't think these groups are that influential but maybe one of our more UK/Ireland-leaning contributors can chime in here. Either way, even within Ireland, I think there are better contenders such as The Cranberries whose 69 interwikis are almost as much as The Pogues and Thin Lizzy combined. They are also Top-Importance in Irish music and have 3 songs that have more Spotify streams than the most-streamed Thin Lizzy or The Pogues song. They were also one of the best-selling alternative acts of the 1990s globally. I would not vote to add them in but this is just an example of how Thin Lizzy/The Pogues aren't even the most influential groups within the niche of Irish rock.

As a weak swap suggestion for the Hard Rock category, I'd support Anthrax (band) who are considered one of the Big 4 of thrash metal. We list the other 3 (Metallica  5, Slayer  5, and Megadeth  5). I am also fine with this just being a removal proposal. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom, remove both Aurangzebra (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support a swap between The Pogues and Anthrax. Weak keep Thin Lizzy. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support both per nom. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support for both removals. I would rather cut a few classic rock bands from the 1970s, but there's still sysbias towards rock. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Anthrax. I think they're less vital than both Thin Lizzy or The Pogues. We won't need to add them only to complete the big four of thrash metal. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

US presidents

Agreement that not all US presidents are vital, but still well-known and few enough in number that the list can probably accomodate most. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Are American presidents over represented? We currently list all but two of them (who died after less then a year in office) and if Kamala Harris  5 wins (go vote) shes already listed as vital. Do you honestly belive that 44 (potentially 45) are individually one of the most important people in human history? Now I'm just posing this question as if it were detirmed that the list should be slimmed down I haven't the slightest clue where to begin. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has been consensus that not all US presidents are vital and we already removed two of them as you mentioned. Do take in mind that the US has been the hegemonic global power since the fall of the Soviet Union and a great power since the 1890s. The Blue Rider 03:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe? Propose removals of the ones you think could go. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 04:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The politicians and leaders list is large enough to contain most leaders of the Great Powers. Considering all the pop figures and activists we have at VA5, I'm perfectly fine with there being the number of political leaders, and the number of American political leaders, that there are. I'm also bothered that American political leaders has gotten a ton of scrutiny compared to other sections of VA bios that contain more questionable adds and/or are more biased percentagewise in favor of the US. pbp 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prepose the removal of those pop figures and activists then. People recognize the U.S. presidents, but often times I think are not sure about less widely known people that are extremely vital in a niche area. Someone who doesn't know much about physics might not know who James Clerk Maxwell, but not feel comfortable proposing something involving him because they don't know much about physics. The U.S. presidents are something many people know enough about to feel comfortable discussing. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are roughly 15,000 people on the vital articles list (which, BTW, is considerably more biographies than you find in most print encyclopedias). About 1% are American politicians and about 0.3% of them are U.S. presidents. The U.S., China and the U.K. each have over 100 politicians on the list, and if you include its predecessors (Rome, Papal States, Savoy, Milan, etc), Italy does too. France has 98. The scope of this list is so vast that including 43-44 presidents (Cleveland served twice, Trump possibly could but I hope not) instead of 33-34 is infinitesimal. pbp 19:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Charles Bronson

He's pretty much important to American Western films and one of the most recognized actors at a point. How has he not been added?

Support
  1. 49p (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Navin Ramgoolam

He recently won the 2024 Mauritian general election and was previously prime minister of Mauritius from 1995–2000 and 2005–2014. His father Seewoosagur Ramgoolam is currently listed as a vital article. Sahaib (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Listing nom's vote more explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Military & Revolutionary Proposals

Hi there, I don't normally participate in People proposals, but I saw the section for Military / Rebel biographies was still about 25 shy of the quota. I thought I could help brainstorm. Since we're below quota too, I'll go ahead and bundle them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add 5 Ancient Chinese Generals

I know we already have decent coverage of Ancient Chinese generals, but here are 5 more from the Warring States period. In case there's only partial support, I've applied my own ordering, but feel free to prioritize them differently:

  1. Wang Jian (Qin), led the Qin army under Qin Shi Huang to unify China
  2. Lian Po, successfully defended Zhao for most of the decisive Battle of Changping; the Qin influence campaign to replace him is also a notable story
  3. Bai Qi, ultimately won the Battle of Changping for Qin
  4. Li Mu, helped Zhao hold out successfully after its losses at Changping
  5. Zhao Kuo, lost the Battle of Changping for Zhao
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 early modern naval figures

2 of them are Ottoman, and although we already list Piri Reis and Hayreddin Barbarossa, I figure the Ottomans were around long enough to justify a couple more:

Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Pier Gerlofs Donia Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

  • Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
  • Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
  • Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral

Add 2 pre-modern assassins

These both can help fill out some older time periods, and both actually have pop-culture connections too:

  • Jing Ke, ancient, attempted to assassinate Qin Shi Huang at the close of the Chinese Warring States period; actually the basis of the movie Hero with Jet Li
  • Rashid ad-Din Sinan, medieval, probably most famous leader of the Syrian Hashashin. Also a political or religious leader, but technically still under the leadership in Alamut, and should work as Military too. Along with Hassan-i Sabbah, arguably the most associated with the nickname "Old Man of the Mountain", and the basis for some of the Assassin's Creed video game.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, but these belong under Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Assassination instead. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree completely about Jing Ke if assassins are now under Miscellaneous. I honestly wasn't sure about ad-Din Sinan though because he's a capital "A" assassin. It seemed fitting to list them together, but while the Hashashin were notorious for assassinations, they did have a long-lasting state with population and an economy. So if not here, maybe he belongs more under either Religious or Political figures? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 Irish republicans

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

  • Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
  • Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
  • Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral

Add 3 Korean commanders

Funny enough, while we list American and Chinese generals, we don't list any Chiefs of Staff for Korean forces on either side of the Korean war. It looks like the following 3 are all good candidates:

  • Chung Il-kwon, appointed right after the start of the war, helped regroup the South Koreans and also would have helped coordinate the Battle of Inchon.
  • Paik Sun-yup, another successful South Korean general and appointed Chief of Staff for the last part of the Korean War.
  • Choe Yong-gon (official), overall commander of North Korean forces for the duration of the Korean War.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

  • Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
  • Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
  • K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Decline

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

  • Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
  • Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
  • Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.
Support
  1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Decline
  1. Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Maureen Dowd  5

NYT columnist. Seems to be best known for covering the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, but the article does not mention her. 6 interwikis.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. That is a good point. Sahaib (talk) 07:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Swap with Matt Drudge Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support, Writers & Journalists is over quota and we should probably prioritize recent figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Matt Drudge

Related to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, we don't yet list Matt Drudge, who founded the site Drudge Report, where the news of the scandal first broke out. I propose to swap Dowd with him. Drudge is a pioneer in web journalism, mentored Andrew Breitbart of breitbart.com and influenced conservative alternative news media on the Internet. Add to Web journalists under Writers and journalists.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Henri Fayol

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management  5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor  5.

Support
  1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Gustave Le Bon  5

PASSED
Added 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Psychologist and sociologist best known for his theories on the psychological dynamics of crowds, which have been influential in fields such as sociology and political science and also in the development of psychoanalysis.

Support
  1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Psychologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support, Social scientists is still under quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Chevy Chase  5

FAILED
Not removed 2-3, Seth Rogen mentioned as benchmark for comparison. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While he was big in the 70s and 80s for National Lampoon's Vacation and Saturday Night Live  5 he hasn't really done anything major outside of that other than maybe Community (TV series)

Support
  1. As nomQuestions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 17:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support but there are a lot of other comedians that gotta go too. pbp 20:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Has left a lasting impact over two decades starring in several Hollywood movies. One of the legendary early cast members of SNL. Seth Rogen  5 was kept in a remove-proposal, and Chevy Chase is a comedian of equal standing. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    While he was an OG SNL cast member he was only on for one and half seasons. As for his movie career while he did have several major roles, I would say very many of them were particularly influential Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 16:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Since we're removing a bunch of comedians below, I see no reason to remove this pretty popular one. Kevinishere15 (talk) 05:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Thi (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Add Agnez Mo

I know we have been on a remove celebrities streak recently (which I am fine with), but we can make room for Mo, who is arguably the biggest pop star in the world's fourth-largest country. See, for example, List of awards and nominations received by Agnez Mo

Support
  1. As nom. To non English language musicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makes sense Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Comedian removals

A few months ago, I did a cleanup/purge of television hosts, which was bloated in favor of Americans, Brits and Australians. Now I must do the same with comedians. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eliminate film/TV/standup distinction

There are just too many artists who transcend those distinctions for them to be meaningful. Examples:

  • Bob Newhart is listed under standup even though he had several television shows
  • Chevy Chase, Chris Rock and Will Ferrell (and others) are listed under films even though they were also SNL cast members
  • Rodney Dangerfield is listed under films despite having a long standup career
Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, it's arbitrary and doesn't exist on Level 4. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Does feel rather arbitrary Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose mainly because a section with 203 articles is large and unwieldy and generally inaccessible to editors and casual readers alike. This same problem exists in the music section (many of the artists listed under Rock such as The Beatles  3 also have Pop specified as a genre and vice versa, many of the artists listed under Hip Hop/Rap can be listed either under Pop or R&B such as Drake who has all 3 listed as genres etc.) but I think people don't mind those subdivisions because the alternative would be a massive blob. The same problem on a smaller scale happens here. That being said, I do think the classification was done poorly e.g. I would put Rodney Dangerfield in the standup category. However, I find 80% of these classifications accurate as to the main cause of their vitality. We make judgment calls everywhere else on VA5, I don't see why we can't here. Aurangzebra (talk) 09:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    1. 203 comedians at VA5 is way too many; right size would be about half that
    2. There are other ways to organize comedians other than standup/TV/movies, such as by nationality or time period.
    pbp 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Remove Carrot Top

IDK if this guy was ever an A-lister pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. nom. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Weak oppose, he has a lot more interwikis than anyone else on this list and anecdotally he's the only one I've heard of. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weak oppose per kevinishere. Internationally known as evidenced by interwikis and was a frequent reference in a bunch of TV shows and movies for his distinct look and brand of comedy. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Remove Irwin Corey

PASSED
Removed 7-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anybody ever heard of this guy? Due to being blacklisted, he was in obscurity. < 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Doesn't seem to have left a lasting impact Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I question how some of these people even made it on to the list. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Ken Dodd

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Alan King

PASSED
Removed 5-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Max Miller (comedian)

Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Seems to have been pretty important for his time Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "considered to be one of the greatest stand-up comedians of his generation", reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Weak oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per above Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Nichols and May

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mike Nichols and Elaine May are both already listed (Nichols as a director, May as a comedian). The comedy pairing has TWO interwikis. May has 31, Nichols has 55. This is one of the instances where the individuals are more notable than the pairing. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Probably redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Patrice O'Neal

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 15 interwikis. Only released a single album pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Surprisingly do know this guy because he was one of the warehouse guys on The Office but definitely not vital. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Roy Rene

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just two interwikis. TWO. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Only really relevant in Australia Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Not sure how we are doing on Australian comedy representation but this is probably not the right person for it regardless Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Mort Sahl

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Jerry Van Dyke

PASSED
Removed 5-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Primarily had supporting roles pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove George Wallace (Australian comedian)

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just two interwikis. TWO. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Also note that pageviews are very low Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Henny Youngman

PASSED
Removed 5-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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"Take my wife, please" might be VA5 but he himself...IDK. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. One-liner comedy has definitely not stood the test of time. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Will Hay

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Only a little over 3000 page views Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 23:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Fred Allen

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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If we're removing Chevy Chase, IDK how he survives. 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Arthur Askey

PASSED
Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Imogene Coca

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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< 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Tommy Cooper

FAILED
Not removed 2-3. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Lasting (and current) influence, as seen under "legacy and honours" Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per above, reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Charles Correll

PASSED
Removed 5-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Freeman Gosden

PASSED
Removed 5-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Dashan

FAILED
Not removed 2-3. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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< 10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Seems important re: Chinese comedy Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per above, pioneer of stand-up in China Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Bob Crane

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Fry and Laurie

PASSED
Removed 5-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Fry and Laurie are themselves listed. The pairing only has 2 interwikis, and Laurie especially is known for independent work rather than the pairiing. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Rich Little

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Dick Martin

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Dan Rowan

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Garry McDonald

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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< 10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Morecambe and Wise

FAILED
Not removed 2-3. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Highly influential in the UK, and by the looks of it the low number of interwikis is due to many Wikipedias having articles on them as individuals instead: Eric Morecambe and Ernie Wise both have more, and I don't think they would be individually vital on their own Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wise has 10 interwikis and Morecambe 16, neither of which is much for a celeb pbp 20:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per above, "the best loved British double-act" Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Weak oppose. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Freddie Prinze

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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<20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Michael Richards

PASSED
Removed 5-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Mostly known as a supporting actor. His most famous appearances were on Seinfeld, which is VA5, as are Jerry Seinfeld and Julia Louis-Dreyfus. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. weak support Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Harry Secombe

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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10 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Danny Thomas

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Exactly 20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove Victoria Wood

PASSED
Removed 4-0. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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<20 interwikis pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nomGeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Ralph Gonsalves

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Aulus Cornelius Cossus  5

Apparently notable for receiving the Spolia opima (a rare military honour from the early Roman period), but this was while Rome was still comparatively small, and there isn't much pointing to him being that well-remembered.

Support
  1. Nom Iostn (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Weak oppose. I could see deciding he's not vital down the road, but with Military figures still hanging below quota (and no plans to adjust the quota yet), I would rather defer until we have a full section to compare against. I'm not a Classicist either, but he may actually be a big deal to Roman history buffs; I think a lot of the Early Republican history gets glossed over in pop culture today, especially compared to the Early Empire. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Daniel Radcliffe  5

FAILED
Not removed 3-5 per WP:SNOW. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Most notable as a child actor in Harry Potter  4 but after that? I will note that the page has both an insanely high amount of interwikis (98) and page views (200k+), would support a suitable swap

Support
  1. As nom. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her)
  2. pbp 18:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:50, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Yes, one major role, but it was a very iconic one, if we want to lower the number of actors, surely there are better candidates. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure it was only one role, but it was for eight blockbuster movies running for over a decade. Idiosincrático (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. There are much better removal options available, I think Radcliffe can stay. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. On top of what everyone else said, he isn't even a 'one role' wonder: he has achieved significant success on the stage, even winning a Tony Award this year. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per above Iostn (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Actors are quite bloated. There are plenty of guys of Radcliffe's caliber that ought to go pbp 02:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Jensen Huang

According to Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 6, on May 23, this article had 3 support and 1 oppose. As I stated on February 6 when I nominated this, I think he is instrumental for leading the artificial intelligence charge and continue to believe Nvidia  5 will be the first company to achieve a $5 trillion valuation.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Nom -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, and I'm actually pretty skeptical of the recent "AI moment". But we're still under-quota for businesspeople, he and Nvidia have clearly made a ton of money, and whatever happens with the current AI boom / bubble, financial historians will probably be talking about him a long time from now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Of course. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove KSI  5

FAILED
Not removed 1-4 per WP:SNOW. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I feel like some of the picks for who we list as representation of Internet influencers / content creators were completely chosen at random. Yes, KSI is a fairly popular creator, but I don't think there's anything he has done that sticks out as particularly "influential" or worthy of vitality. He's pretty much just another dime a dozen influencer, one of many that emerged post-pandemic with little to no word about them prior that are only really known by younger generations. I think V5 should limit the listings of online content creators to only those who were particularly influential on online content creation as a whole, or are extraordinarily popular (e.g. MrBeast  5, PewDiePie  5), and KSI doesn't really fit into either of those brackets. Another point: if we rejected IShowSpeed (which I'm not sure why I supported back then), who is infinitely more popular, there is no reason that we should list KSI.

Alternatively, we could swap KSI out with someone else if there's any opposition to an outright removal, but I'm not sure who we'd replace him with. I'm open to suggestions.

Support
  1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. He is the only British YouTuber listed. Compared to other vital YouTuber articles he has gotten more notable, page views before 26 March 2021 he was #4 and page views after 26 March 2021 he was #3. (26 March 2021 was when the page was moved from KSI (entertainer) to KSI). In 2014, he was ranked by The Guardian as being the 2nd most watched YouTuber of 2014 in the UK, so I disagree with the idea that he emerged "post-pandemic". Unlike the vast majority of YouTubers, he has found lasting success as a musician, see KSI discography. Sahaib (talk) 08:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above; I really don't get the claim he "emerged post-pandemic", I have zero interest in his content but I have been aware of him for years. Maybe he has had a new spike in popularity but that would be a point in favour if he is maintaining relevance over time. Iostn (talk) 14:47, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. On top of what everyone else said, his product Prime (drink) is arguably the most recognized and highest selling Youtuber product in history (I cannot find concrete proof for this but just judging based on its massive corporate sponsorships and the fact you can find them in almost any supermarket in the US or UK). Aurangzebra (talk) 16:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per above, not sure where the nom got the idea that he emerged post pandemic. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add several cartographers to the section "Human geographers and cartographers"

Add Mark Monmonier

Mark Monmonier is a very influential modern cartographer and author of the book How to Lie with Maps. His career has focused on addressing map literacy among the general population.

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Bernhardus Varenius

Wrote Geographia Generalis, which is widely regarded as the division between classical and modern geography.

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Mei-Po Kwan

Major contributions to geography and cartography, one of the most influential geographers alive, h-index of 93

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add George F. Jenks

One of the major geographers/cartographers of the 20th century. His influence was largely focused on the transition from traditional to computer cartography. Full disclosure, this is one of the articles I originated.

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Add Arthur Getis

Like Jenks, Getis is one of the highly influential 20th/21st century geographers. One of the "space cadets," his most famous contribution was likely the "Getis–Ord statistics" that allow Hot Spot maps. Full disclousre, this is another article I originate.

Support
  1. As nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Tim Burstall  5

Australian film director, that doesn't seem especially vital. Only 2 languages, and low view count.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 00:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Bernardino de Sahagún

A Spanish Franciscan friar who is highly regarded as a pioneer of ethnography and anthropology. He was one of the first Europeans to scholarly document and write about pre-Columbian civilizations, most notably in the Florentine Codex.

Support
  1. As nom. To anthropologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, good find. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move Warren Beatty  5 from Directors, producers and screenwriters to Actors film

Beatty has directed five films (one of them co-directed) his acting credited are much more extensive.

Support
  1. As nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose

Add cinematographers

Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).

Add Roger Deakins

From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Emmanuel Lubezki

From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Kazuo Miyagawa

From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss


Add Vittorio Storaro

From Italy. One of the most influential cinematographers. Worked in Apocalypse Now. Also 3 Academy Award wins.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. pbp 20:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 07:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Raoul Coutard

From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Gabriel Figueroa

From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Subrata Mitra

From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Christopher Doyle

From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.

Support
  1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add João Lourenço

Angola has a population of about 37 million and so the president should probably be listed.

Support
  1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some sports journalists and commentators

As previously said: Writers and journalists are over quota. These people have pretty low pageviews and interwikis, and none of the articles assert much vitality

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Just so long as you keep Grantland Rice at VA5 pbp 06:43, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I would be fine with no sports stuff, as I don't consider these things to be vital at all, so definitly agree. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. None of these seem vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Agree, I can see having a handful of sportscasters for some coverage, but we probably don't need 34. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Manco Cápac

The legendary founder and first governor of the Incas. His existence has not been corroborated, but it's comparable to some politicians such as Romulus  5 and Lycurgus  4. He is a major character in Incan mythology as well.

Support
  1. As nominator. To politicians. I am also open to adding him to Mythological figures. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong support, also agree with placing in Leaders if that's the precedent for Greece & Rome. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Yoon Suk Yeol

Probably vital enough now to be listed. Sahaib (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify for the peanut gallery, dude's been President of South Korea for two years and failed in a martial law attempt pbp 00:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support
  1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review of the Literature - East Europe - Modern; using interwiki number criteria and national quotas

Basic overview

East Europe:

  • 22 countries
  • 63 persons in actual list (33 prose, 23 poetry, 5 drama, 2 journalism)

Determination of indicative national quotas

List of countries by gross domestic product in purchasing power parity (2024):

  • 1/ Poland (1,890,000) = 27,5 % of GDP (PPP) of East Europe = 17 persons in list of 63 (now 18)
  • 2/ Romania (894,220) = 13 % = 8 persons (now 4)
  • 3/ Ukraine (655,580) = 9,5 % = 6 persons (now 2)
  • 4/ Czechia (619,880) = 9 % = 6 persons (now 7)
  • 5/ Hungary (448,460) = 6,5 % = 4 persons (now 11)
  • 6/ Greece (436,757) = 6,4 % = 4 persons (now 5)
  • 7/ Belarus (293,140) = 4,3 % = 3 persons (now 3)
  • 8/ Bulgaria (248,910) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 4)
  • 9/ Slovakia (247,540) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 0)
  • 10/ Serbia (191,560) = 2,8 % = 2 persons (now 1)
  • 11/ Croatia (187,190) = 2,7 % = 2 persons (now 0)
  • 12/ Lithuania (154,620) = 2,3 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 13/ Slovenia (117,990) = 1,7 % = 1 person (now 7)
  • 14/ Latvia (81,800) = 1,2 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina (74,280) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 16/ Estonia (65,540) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 17/ Albania (58,200) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 1)
  • 18/ Cyprus (55,140) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 0)
  • 19/ North Macedonia (49,300) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 20/ Moldova (45,410) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 21/ Kosovo (29,719) = 0,4 % = under 1 (now 0)
  • 22/ Montenegro (20,180) = 0,3 % = under 1 (now 0)

(Total GDP (PPP): 6 865 416)

For balance: List of countries by Human Development Index (more cultural criterion) (2022)

-

-

-

Persons by country - synthesis GDP+HDI

Total 63

Now unification by language aspekt (Moldova+Romania = romanian language, Kosovo+Albania = albanian language, Cyprus+Greece = greek language; question of montengrian and macedonian language is politically sensitive issue, so not merge)

Final ranking:

This order does not mean that the quota must be followed exactly, only that we will want to get closer to it if the "interwiki analysis" allows.

Balance with interwiki criterion (by country)

Poland 17 (now 18)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions

Greece - 9 (now 5)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions

Czechia - 8 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Romania - 7 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Ukraine - 4 (now 2)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Hungary - 3 (now 11)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Slovenia 3 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Estonia 3 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Belarus 2 (now 3)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Slovakia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Croatia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Serbia 1 (now 1)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Lithuania 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Latvia 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

  • Rainis - 31 (poe) - added as new

Albania 0 (now 1)

Now in list:

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Bulgaria 0 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

Not in list:

Suggestions:

Bosnia 0-0

Now in list:

- (represent by Ivo Andrić, in Serbia list)

Not in list:

Suggestions:

North Macedonia 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

-

Montenegro 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

Suggestions:

-

Second scrutinium

Adding to the list those authors who come from a country with zero claim but have a high individual ranking - at the expense of those with the lowest individual ranking

Suggestions:

List of authors after second scrutinium (by interwikis) - "national quotas model":

Third scrutinium

Candidates for third scrutinium:

Minimum correction:

Fourth scrutinium

32 persons in Prose - need 33:

Rigas Feraios -36 replaced with with Sándor Márai - 43 (not Basanavičius because he is the only representative of Lithuania)

FINAL list by interwiki:

FINAL LIST by genre in alphabetical order:

Prose (33)

Poetry (23)

Drama (5)

Journalism (2)

Drama and Journalism do not have a fixed local quota, so the discrepancy does not matter. If the original situation is to be fully preserved, Štúr can be moved to Politics and Branislav Nušić - 41 or Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 can be added to the drama.

Interesting fact: 10 women on the new list, 6 in old (actual) list - without a specific focus on greater gender equality!

Possible Fifth scrutinium

Candidates for eventual fifth scrutinium "Westerners to the west": Joseph Conrad, Elie Wiesel, Tristan Tzara (poe) and Paul Celan (poe) can be relocated to West literature and they can be replaced with:

Add Hall & Oates, remove Michael Bolton  5

Would go under Pop. Surprised these guys aren't already listed. 6 number one hits, 29/33 of their singles were US Top 40 hits, and they are the most successful musical duo of all time, ahead of The Carpenters  5, The Everly Brothers  5, and Simon & Garfunkel  5. All the usual accolades and more: one of the top 100 artists of all time according to VH1 and Billboard Hot 100, inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Songwriters Hall of Fame, and 7 platinum albums.

I don't feel particularly strongly about removing Michael Bolton but I do like to balance my proposals with a possible removal and Bolton is arguably the weakest contender in the same era and genre. Bolton's whole shtick of pop ballad crooning hasn't aged particularly well (seems to just be a relic of the late '80s/early '90s) and Spotify listener stats seem to indicate that none of his tracks besides How Am I Supposed to Live Without You have stood the test of time. By contrast, Hall & Oates are the 213th most-played artist on Spotify right now [9]. I won't deny he achieved commercial success during his time but there are many other artists who were even more commercially successful than him that we don't list presumably because their work hasn't achieved lasting recognition and continued success through time (e.g. Nickelback in rock). Besides 2 Grammys and a handful of American Music Awards, he hasn't achieved any critical success and his lede mentions that he has faced criticism for being derivative and also for plagiarizing work. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Jens Stoltenberg

Prime minister of Norway for 9 years and Secretary General of NATO for 10 years.

Support
  1. as nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Billy Mitchell (gamer)  5

This guy is so much of a self-promoter that I wouldn't put it past him that he wrote his name here. He is a prominent figure in gaming today, though primarily due to his litigious behavior and internet drama. Even if his records are true, I don't think we should be elevating this stuff.

Support
  1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
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