Talk:Schengen Area

Split article about Bulgaria and Romania

Hello, I am pretty sure no country's accession has been as complicated and politicized as that of Bulgaria and Romania. This has been a controversial topic for a decade already as several countries, primarily the Netherlands, vetoed their accession. It has required heavy negotiation between many political bodies and has affected the domestic politics in Bulgaria, Romania and Austria specially. For example, in Austria, the conservative government is under pressure of applying more restrictive measures against migration, which affects this issue [1]. From Romania there were even threats of sueing Austria [2], as well as threats of ending gas projects with Austrian companies [3]. It has also erupted distrust and hate between inhabitants of these countries [4] [5]. There were also theories of Austria blocking both to favor Russia [6]. I think there's a lot to write about. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that a separate page is needed, because the main one is already over populated and definitely (and personally sadly) it is going to have further developments down the road in 2024, possibly in 2025. Naskox (talk) 19:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Also agree a page is warranted. I don't think that the current content is necessarily overdone, but as stated there is a lot to write about that would be overdone here. CMD (talk) 08:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it makes sense. Super Dromaeosaurus, since you have almost started it anyway, consider yourself volunteered to make it happen. WP:BEBOLD. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:04, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Better trim out the Ro-Bg section and make it look as they are "partially joined" in the Schenghen area. Alexceltare2 (talk) 07:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Any appetite to simply merge this information into 2007 enlargement of the European Union? I don't know if a separate article is exactly warranted although something should happen. Yeoutie (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

This article does not have to be split because Bulgaria and Romania are part of Schengen area, will provide Schengen Visa like all other member states, will be part in Concilium Schengen Justice and Home Affairs and have air and maritim boarder lifted. Like Greece, Romania and Bulgaria have both the same status. All three states have no interne terrestrial boardes lifted. In rest they have the same status, obligations and rights.

When someone is reading about Ro and Bg will know that terrestrial boarders are not lifted and will be lifted sometime in the future. 2A02:2F04:119:8400:DC4A:6DA2:405A:DE83 (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The map and the article have to be updated. As of today 31 March 2024, Bulgaria and Romania ARE full members of the Schengen area, with border checks lifted on air and land borders, with partial border control still remaining on land borders.

this is not accurate to still group Bulgaria and Romania together with Cyprus and say they are “obligated to join in the future”. 77.85.21.34 (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I have updated the remaining maps now. --Nablicus (talk) 12:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

If Greece is in the same color with all other states so Romania and Bulgaria have to have the same color. They have the same status. Full memebers, visa Schengen, Concilium, etc. and no internal boarders lifted. If you color different Romania and Bulgaria, Greece have to have the same color like them. 2A02:2F04:119:8400:ADD7:205C:CBE6:4C7B (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Bulgaria and Romania have now entered for land borders as well after Austria lifted its veto. The map may be updated. WhereAreYouHouston182 (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

well, that seems still a bit premature... but they are getting there.... L.tak (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

And the decision is made! Article was already updated and I see some back and forth editing regarding the legend to the map for Ro and Bg, which I won't change as I don't mind whether the legend should read "air and sea border only", or "full implementation on 1 jan 2025". Neither of them is outdated or a WP:Crystal-ball statement... L.tak (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Bulgaria & Romania - acceding members

I was wondering whether there should be another color on that map - maybe a light blue - for acceding members. We could change the meaning of that light blue to "partial members (Schengen rules apply to air and sea-travel) in March. Xolani (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea; especially since such a new colour will be absolutely needed from March on as you anticipate. I'll see if it is a nicely formatted editable svg file. If so, I'll change it... L.tak (talk) 16:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Awesome! I've in fact already changed as proposed, but I don't have the rights to overwrite files on Commons. So don't know how to proceed. Xolani (talk) 21:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I just uploaded my edited version, provisionally. I also changed the legend to reflect new color. Please feel free to just overwrite the original file. I will then delete my edited version.File:Map of the Schengen Area BG RO acceding.svg Xolani (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Xolani: That new version fails MOS:CONTRAST, and so the obligatory WP:ACCESSIBILITY: I cannot tell the difference between the two lighter shades of blue. Bazza (talk) 09:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Good point @Bazza 7! I've updated colors to achieve better contrast. Xolani (talk) 10:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I've now applied for overwriting rights for the original file - and requested deletion of provisional file linked above. Xolani (talk) 12:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the point of marking BG and RO with a different color than Cyprus. Until the air and maritime border controls are lifted on 31 March 2024 there are no practical differences between the countries. There is no such thing as "acceeding members" of the Schengen area. --Nablicus (talk) 15:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. But then, why is there a whole heading in the article called "Acceding members"? Also, when you look at other enlargment articles (i.e. Potential enlargement of the European Union), the different stages of negotiation are clearly shown on the map (candidate vs. candidate negotiating vs. chapter frozen etc.). I think the same could apply here. Xolani (talk) 22:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, you can talk about "acceeding members" in the generic sense that some countries are bound by the Schengen acquis, but yet have to fully implement it. That category includes Bulgaria, Cyprus, and Romania, and these countries are already marked with a different color on the map (orange). --Nablicus (talk) 13:54, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but you and I both know that there is a huge difference between Cyprus and BG/RO: the latter are guaranteed partial accession by March, through a contract signed by all parties. Therefore it is not just "might join eventually" as is the case with Cyprus, but "guaranteed to join this year". Big difference, no? How was it handled for EU accession, for example when Croatia was joining? Xolani (talk) 13:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

If you want to go ahead, please do so! I don't have a strong opinion against, although I still think it is premature to change the colors of BG and RO before they actually have (partially) accessed the Schengen area. As far as I know, we haven't done that for neither previous Schengen area enlargements nor for Eurozone enlargements. Nablicus (talk) 13:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. From 31st March 2024 there will be obvious difference between BG, RO and Cyprus. First BG and RO will be able to issue Schengen visas, Cyprus would not. Second escpeccial important for Cyprus (being an island) BG and RO will be part of Schengen area so maritime borders will be abolished, which will not be the case for Cyprus and more, but even this is enough for differentiation on the map between RO, BG and Cyprus. Naskox (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)y

Yes, from 31 March 2024, there will obviously be a big difference between BG, RO, and Cyprus, and that should be visible on the map from that date. That's not what we discuss here though. --Nablicus (talk) 13:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

My bad, I didnt

nderstand you correctly the first time. Until 31st March - yes there is no point in making the map, just the info on the page is sufficient in my opinion. Naskox (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)u

Alright, as there is now a second user in favor of waiting, I won't change colors until March 31st. :) Xolani (talk) 15:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I have now changed colors, as discussed. ~~~~ Xolani (talk) 22:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Some maps in the article still depict Bulgaria and Romania as "not participating but obliged to join". What is more, the Euler diagram still fails to include Bulgaria and Romania in the Schengen Area. Keep in mind that legally speaking, Bulgaria and Romania are full Schengen members since March 31, 2024, as they are obliged to implement the Schengen acquis EVEN for land travel and DESPITE the fact that land border controls have not yet been lifted. Partial accession refers exactly to the fact that land border controls at the borders of Bulgaria and Romania have been kept intact because of Austria, which, however, does not alter the status and obligations of these two countries as full Schengen members. Goombario64 (talk) 08:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Legal Europe

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2024 and 15 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nagyplaneta2 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Nagyplaneta2 (talk) 14:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Andorra

Andorra has no open borders with its neighbors, that is France and Spain. So there are no Andorran open borders with the Schengen area. Pmmollet^Talk 05:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

In 2024, the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs reports that Andorra has a de facto open border with Spain and France. Thearones (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the information by the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs is simply incorrect. In fact, the first steps to negotiations about an agreement to provide a legal basis for the absence of border controls between France and Andorra as well as between Spain and Andorra have just been taken, see [7]. --Nablicus (talk) 07:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

In addition, there are two official border control points at the border to Andorra – La Seo de Urgel (Spain) and Pas de la Case-Porta (France) – listed in the official list of border crossing points of the Schengen area, see list for Spain and for France. This is not the case for Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City, since they indeed have open borders with the Schengen area, in accordance with the Schengen acquis and/or intergovernmental agreements. --Nablicus (talk) 07:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

That link seems to support the statement by the German ministry, the language "necessary to provide a legal basis for the absence of border controls" implies there is an existing lack of border controls. CMD (talk) 08:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

So you mean that the border controls have already been scrapped without a legal basis? That would be a violation of applicable law, such as the Schengen borders code. Once again, there are border control points listed for the border with Andorra, in contrast to Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican. --Nablicus (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I understand the situation like this. There are border crossing points, with border police present, but most people are let through without any systematic entry or exit controls of their identity (however, there seems to be no legal basis for this, which is a bit odd given the provisions in the Schengen acquis on controls at external borders). However, in principle, the border police can control anyone they like. A third-country national should in principle ask for their passport to be stamped at both exit and entry of the Schengen area at the Andorran border. In comparison to other external borders, the border controls at Andorran borders seem to be relaxed, but they do still exist. There are clearly still border control points there and border police doing some checks. It is not a completely open border like Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican. --Nablicus (talk) 08:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Scrapping would imply the border was once fully enforced, which may not be the case. Andorra used to use the Euro without legal basis, this may be a similar situation. CMD (talk) 14:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

No, the situation is very different because Andorra can of course do whatever they want, but as Schengen states, France and Spain are obliged to conduct border controls at the external borders in accordance with applicable EU law. They don't have the freedom to choose unilaterally to just relax border measures, unless there is a legal basis to do so. Anything else would constitute a violation of EU law. --Nablicus (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like its a violation of EU law then. CMD (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, after digging more into this, I agree that there are several independent sources claiming that there are no systematic border controls at the Andorran border. However, it is still very strange since there are listed border control points (in contrast to, e.g., the San Marinese border) and there seems to be no legal basis for these relaxed border controls. By the way, I also noticed that the EU Council has authorized negotiations with San Marino. So in that regard, the situation is similar for those two countries. I updated the Wikipedia article accordingly. --Nablicus (talk) 17:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that now it is better to do not write in the article that Andorra is a de facto Schengen state. The sources contain information that entering and exiting Andorra is illegal for tourists having only single-entry Schengen visas. It is a very important issue. D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion they should fix this issue, an agreement between Andorra, France, Spain, EU that single-entry visa is good to enter Andorra and go back to a neighbour country. Andorra has e.g. sports events such as world cup skiing with visitors from other continents.   As long as special multiple-entry visas are needed, Andorra can't be said to be de-facto part of the Schengen Area.--BIL (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There are actually negotiations about this, see Council decision authorising the opening of negotiations with Andorra. --Nablicus (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It would be better to mark Andorra as a de facto Schengen state only when the agreement is signed. Now there are only negotiations. D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Euler diagram depicting Bulgaria and Romania as non Schengen Area countries

As mentioned throughout the talk page, the legal status of Bulgaria and Romania's accession to the Schengen Area is as follows:

1. Both countries are FULL members of the Schengen Area. That means they are obliged to apply Schengen rules for air, sea AND land travel.

2. Owing to pressure from Austria, land controls are still in place at the borders of Bulgaria and Romania with other Schengen countries (Greece and Hungary), while controls for air and sea travel have been entirely lifted.

3. The very fact that land controls have not yet been lifted does NOT mean that Bulgaria and Romania are outside Schengen. Partial accession does not exist legally and, even though land controls are still in place (an exception under examination by the Commission and the Council), Bulgaria and Romania are member states of the Schengen Area.

Consequently, the Euler diagram should be edited to include Bulgaria and Romania in the Schengen Area circle. Goombario64 (talk) 10:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. There have been other occasions where border controls have been (re)instated between members and the consequence was not their exclusion from Schengen. This case is essentially the same. Support. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Goombario64: I reverted the diagram to a previous version that included them in the Schengen Area. Brainiac242 (talk) 11:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. Goombario64 (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Add Bulgaria and Romania to blue/fully joined on the map

Since it's official that they will fully join on 1 January 2025, do we add them now or wait until 1 January? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0F:F108:6000:60F7:E9A6:58A5:A2BF (talk) 11:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the map should not be edited until the change is enforced GranDucaDiFirenze (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and not a WP:CRYSTAL ball; there's no WP:DEADLINE. Wait until there's a reliable reference which states that they are full members of Schengen, then the article's map can be changed (there are several in Commons to pick from) and text updated to show the event has happened. Bazza 7 (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Might not be able to change the map just in time (I mean, it's new year....), but pretty sure someone else will do so. ~~~~ Xolani (talk) 08:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)