Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

May 13

close and closed --- related?

I would like to add another question: has the word "CLOSE" ever meant "NOT OPEN"? If so, then, what dictionary cites the meaning? thank you. You have all been helpful. I am expecting a reply.

this question was ignored last time.. i hope there will be an answer to this now. thanks. Carlrichard 06:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=close under "–adjective", several meanings starting at 39.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, in error I stated that the question was answered last time but in fact the (similar) question which preceded it was what I was thinking of. --Alex16zx 08:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

ten years old?

please compare the two:

I am a ten-year old child.

I am ten years old.

I am confused. Why can we not say "I am ten-year old?" Is it because of the last word being a noun or an adjective? I hope somebody will be able to help me out on this. Please lecture me (I hope that's an appropriate word). I am really racking my brain, trying to figure out why that is so.. Thank you in advance. Carlrichard 19:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Normally, when you precede a measure by a quantity greater than one, the word indicating the quantity is put in the plural: We have been waiting for two hours; This pole is ten feet long. However, when such a quantified measure is used as a modifier, the singular form is used: A two-hour wait; A ten-foot pole. Now you may ask: why is "ten years" in "I am ten years old" not a modifier of "old"? Well, there is no particular good reason for why it isn't, but that is the way it has turned out in English grammar. You can also say "He was ten years of age", but not *"He was a ten-year of age child", so these are different constructions.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Although strangely, at least in British English it is perfectly normal to say This pole is ten foot long. Seems only to happen with the imperial units feet and stone(s?) though. Also in British English, ten foot poles (with which you shouldn't touch someone) are traditionally bargepoles. Cyta 08:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, most Brits would probably say this, but it's not standard English. In many varieties spoken in the UK counting nouns don't get pluralised: where I grew up (Tyneside) people did say I'm ten year old, as well as ten foot, even that I walked five mile (though the singular form with 'year' and 'mile' is probably rarer than with 'foot'). Drmaik 09:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we do a similar thing in East Yorkshire - "he's five foot tall" [common], "that was ten year ago" [less common] etc. I've always assumed this was the influence of Scandinavian, where I believe the standard form for such things is the singular, but perhaps a Danish speaker can enlighten me further. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 10:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Indeed that seems to be a north eastern thing, I think six foot tall or weighing thirteen and a half stone (personal details revealed here!) are more universal across Britain, although I never thought about it till now. I'll have to listen out Cyta 11:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone provide a web site address that discusses more on the grammar rules on the above-mentioned sentences.. thank you? Carlrichard 19:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is mentioned (very briefly) in our article English plural, in the section Plurals and units of measure. A slightly longer discussion is here, including the observation made above by Drmaik. See also this discussion on an ESL Teachers' forum.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

May 14

Template

Has something been done to the template for this page? I seem to have lost everything that used to run down the right side of the page at the top, like, for example, the lists of the other Reference Desks. Does anyone else have this problem? Bielle 00:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

RefDeskBot munged up the page. I think I've fixed it. Corvus cornix 00:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks fixed to me now. Thank you, Corvus Cornix. I had no idea what to do. Bielle 01:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I just went through the history of the page to find the last good one, then saw what edit made the error, then fixed it. Thanks for reporting this. Corvus cornix 01:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian Etymology - QUESTION re resources

I am seeking pleasant reading about the correlations of Russian to other IndoEur languages. One occassionally catches a glimpse, but true etymological dictionaries have not worked for me. My best hope is that some linguists have magazine articles.

Case and verb endings, pronouns, & half the prepositions ring of Latin, so I supect Kyrill & Mefodius decided to stay with that part of Slavic already spoken.

I am not interested in the tremendous borrowing from French or other clearly identified words, but the true Slavic structure, and how much is borrowed from Latin or Greek, and how much is just parallel protoEuro.

I don't have any journal articles for you, but from my own knowledge I can say this much: Cyrill and Methodius only devised a writing system, they didn't do any restructuring of the language. And while Russian certainly has some Latin and Greek (and English, French, and German) loanwords, probably the largest source of loanwords in Russian is Old Church Slavonic. —Angr 06:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not fully clear to me what you are interested in, when you say "correlations". Etymological correspondences, such as that of Latin edere, Greek edo, Gothic etan with Russian jest "to eat", exist because all derive from the Proto Indo-European base *ed-. Likewise, grammatical correspondences with Latin, Greek, Gothic, or Sanskrit, go back to a shared correspondence with their common ancestor language. None of these languages borrowed it from any other of these languages; each inherited it from their parent language. Are you only and specifically interested in Russian, or the more general correlations of Slavic languages to other branches of the Indo-European language family? In that case, have a look at our article on Proto-Slavic. Maybe you can find the book The Dawn of Slavic (ISBN 978-0300058468) referenced there in a library; it is a pleasant read.  --Lambiam^Talk 10:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you should check this page for a start. Russian grammar is rather archaic, retaining some fundamental features of PIE. It has seven to eight cases and three genders, for instance. Now you may compare that to English. I once asked sci.lang regulars which Slavic language is the most archaic as concerns grammar, and most replied that Russian is. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian has only six cases. Still too many :-) Jotel 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Publishing a fantasy novel

Hi, I have just finished the first book of my fantasy trilogy and would like to know if anyone has some first-hand experience at getting their book(s) published? I know, there are plenty of pointers and content on the web, and I have read some. I am just interested if anyone has some personal tips or suggestions to share. I am particularly concerned about someone stealing the book and publishing it (not caring about legal consequences), or even worse - leaking a copy on the internet. Thanks. Sandman30s 13:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

if you're worried about it being stolen, mail yourself a copy of the book and do not open it. just keep it, with the date stamp on it, in case anyone steals it. that way, it proves that you were the original author. this is what a lot of composers do with their music that they don't want stolen and if they don't want to spend the money to get it copyrighted. as far as publishing....just send it to a bunch of publishers. look up their addresses online or get one of the handy 'how to publish 2007' guides. expect rejection. most of the time it doesn't have to do with the quality of your work (well, yeah, it could). but usually a publisher will look for a certain topic ortype of fantasy novel to publish that year. maybe it's more appropriate for next year or the year after. do NOT take it personally. it's not you, it's them...as long as you wrote something halfway decent. :) i'm sure you did. when you get it published, let us all know. i'd love to read it! Coolsnak3 21:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Holly Lisle's web page offers a lot of good, practical advice to writers of fantasy and science fiction (and fiction writers in general). I found it really useful, when I was writing my great unpublished novel. -FisherQueen (Talk) 23:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Sandman30s 12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not advice from a published author, but some thoughts anyway. (1) Copyright is automatic, it does not have to be registered or applied for. (2) The people who might be interested in the novel don't need to be sent a copy of the whole thing. Send the first chapter and an outline of the story (another one page). This also may help with concerns about theft. (3) Don't try to typeset the book; lay it out in an approved manuscript style. (4) Many people say not to approach publishers directly, but to approach agents. Especially agents say this. Certainly a good agent will get you a much better deal than you could negotiate and should cover their own costs; but read the agent's contract very closely (e.g. consider what would happen if you don't get on with them; do you still have to pay them 15% on top of the new agent you do get on with? Contracts are binding, and often have unfair terms you need to strike out) (5) Know your market. For example, if the style this year is for 420 page fantasy novels, you don't be able to sell a 200 page novel. Notinasnaid 09:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

FOULINDECHEROUS

I became a Chief Petty Officer in the Unites States Navy in 1978.

At that time I received a plaque that had portions of the Navy Chief Petty Officer Creed. Not the actual Chief Petty Officer Creed which is different.

In the particular creed, there was a word mentioned that I am unable to find. The word was defined in the creed that I received. The word was "FOULINDECHEROUS", that probably is not the correct spelling. Phonetically it would be Four in Dech Er ous.

The meaning of FOULINDECHEROUS is a person that is adept at untangling fouled ropes or in other words a person that can take a bad situation and correct it.

The Fouled Anchor is the symbol of the Navy Chief Petty Officer. Again it is an Anchor with rope Foulded around it.

I am interested in finding the correct spelling and definintion of "FOULINDECHEROUS"

Thank you in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NaughtyCharlie (talk • contribs)

The text of the creed found here (html) or here (PDF searching within document required) does not seem to contain any such word like "FOULINDECHEROUS". Perhaps the word refered to some other saying? -Czmtzc 16:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Decherous might be dexterous, but searching for fouling dexterous, foulingdexterous, foulindexterous and so forth yielded nothing useful either. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Could there be a relationship to one of the ships named USS Dextrous?  --Lambiam^Talk 22:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is an image of a plaque containing the creed. Again, no such word. Tugbug 22:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you give us the sentence containing the alleged word? Until you said what (you think) it means I guessed it was foul indecorous, which might well describe conduct that you pledge to abhor. —Tamfang 07:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

List of English letters/phonetics

Can someone give me a list of all the proununciable symbols in English? Like "a in about", "o in over", etc.? I can't find one, and I need one. Thanks. - 2-16 17:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• IPA chart for English? Drmaik 18:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. - 2-16 18:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the Slang word Grand

What is the origin of the slang word grand? Example: "My car is worth 5 grand." -- 12.146.20.10 17:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The Online Etymology Dictionary says it originated in American English in "underworld slang" circa 1915, based on the adjective sense of "large" or "great." --LarryMac | Talk 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Note also that "large" itself, like "grand", is used by some people to mean $1,000. --Anon, May 14, 21:21 (UTC).

So it "big ones". Black Carrot 06:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

translation for talk page

Could someone please answer the questions here regarding this URL: http://ranobe.com/up/src/up189355.jpg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tuesday42 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Prestidigitation

What are some words that rhyme with and have the same number of syllables as "prestidigitation"? [Mac Δαvιs] ❖ 23:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Does it have to be a single word? Lots of phrases could rhyme - "pulled up to the station", "going on vacation", "vowed to God and nation" . . . . --LarryMac | Talk 23:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

intercommunication though it be a barbarous utterance. meltBanana 03:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And has 1 too many syllables. Polymorphisation, anti-reformation? JackofOz 03:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sexualization. JackofOz 05:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Revandalisation. JackofOz 05:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Californication? Severe inebriation, via scandalous libation? Evangelization? Ex-expatriation? Black Carrot 06:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Polynomial integration. Black Carrot 06:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're doing a poem about magic, how about "vapid explication" as a euphemism for patter? Black Carrot 06:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Grand gesticulation. Black Carrot 06:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Artful levitation!--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 06:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Transubstantiation fits appropriately (oo flamebait!). —Tamfang 07:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Desertification, reillumination and pre-ejaculation. Oh, and for Tamfang, Eternal Damnation. ;) Azi Like a Fox 10:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Differentiation, excommunication (for Tamfang again), experimentation, naturalization, overpopulation, reconciliation, and rehabilitation. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Puff the Magic Dragon? -- Azi Like a Fox 00:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Peter, Paul and Mary? -- JackofOz 00:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

May 15

Pronouncing Hebrew words related to Hanukkah

My son is doing an oral presentation on Hanukkah, and we are clueless about how to pronounce the following words: Sufganiyah and Chanukkiyah.

Any clues would be most helpful. 1001001 00:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

For Sufganiyah: SOOF-gan-EE-ah.

For Chanukkiyah: CHAH-noo-KEE-ah.

Roughly. Neutrality^talk 03:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean HAH-noo-KEE-ah (or KHAH-noo-KEE-ah)? --Ptcamn 03:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The first letter of Hebrew: חנוכיה (c)hanukkiyah is a Heth. According to our article on that letter, in Modern Israeli Hebrew it usually has the sound value of a voiceless velar fricative (/x/). This is the same sound as the "ch" in Scottish loch and German Loch. This sound may be difficult to produce for American English speakers; it is somewhat similar to /h/, but considerably rougher/harsher, due to the opening between tongue and soft palate through which the air has to pass – a bit to the front of the place of constriction for an /h/ – being constricted more. If you practice a bit, you can slide this place of constriction gradually and continuously all the way from the back (/h/) to the dental ridge (/s/) to the teeth themselves (/θ/, the sound in thin).  --Lambiam^Talk 16:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Errr, less scientifically, it's a noise I have found (during my travels in many different countries) to be universal - the "ch" of "chanukah" is the noise you hear before the disgusting people of all nations spit in the street; just shorter. --Dweller 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Erm, I had always pronounced them as follows:

For Sufganiyah: soof-gan-YAH.

For Chanukkiyah: chah-NOO-kee-ah.

But that's probably a terrible Jewish-American mis-pronunciation. zafiroblue05 | Talk 18:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

From our article Hebrew phonology, section Stress: "Hebrew has two kinds of stress: on the last syllable (milra‘) and on the penultimate syllable (the one preceding the last, mil‘el)." That rules out the last one of these two. But how do you pronounce chah? Like Cha-cha-cha?  --Lambiam^Talk 06:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

In spoken Hebrew it's (soofganeeYAH) and (chahnookeeYAH) the "ch" is a gutteral sound sometimes represented by Kh and is the sound made in the throat by some when clearing it.

english to hebrew language

Husbands english name is louis in hebrew it is lable. How do I write this in hebrew? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.182.83 (talk) 01:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

The name "Lable" as you spelled it does not have any obvious connections with any Biblical names. There is a Yiddish word "Lebl" which means "little loaf"; it's spelled lamed-`ayin-beit-lamed in Yiddish, but I'm not sure how it would be spelled in Hebrew... AnonMoos 03:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure the word suggested by AnonMoos relates to this name. There is no Hebrew word that sounds like the English-language "lable." However, there is a quite common male first name in Yiddish, noted below by Lambiam, that would be the diminutive of "Leib", meaning "lion."

In religious terms, for some centuries now it has been common practice among Ashkenazi Jews to have a Yiddish "Hebrew" name; ie the name by which one would be called to the Torah, prayed for when ill (or dead!) get married etc. Many of these names have Hebrew (and English) equivalents eg Yaakov, Yankel, Jacob in (respectively) Hebrew, Yiddish and English. --Dweller 17:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Yiddish and Hebrew names are two distinct and often unrelated entities.

• The Hebrew name, generally given at birth, is as Dweller describes it: used in religious contexts. In the Ashkenazi tradition, this is usually of biblical origin and shared with a recently deceased forebear, to commemorate that individual and perpetuate the name in the family.
• The Yiddish name is the "Jewish" name when the given name is in the vernacular (English, Polish, German, etc.) of the country of birth. Often they correspond in meaning, sometimes only in sharing an initial letter or similar sound.

So it's likely for an individual to have three given names, that would share meaning and/or phonological similarity. -- Deborahjay 06:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Here I find the Yiddish name Leibel, written in the Hebrew alphabet as לייבל‎.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The name "Leibl" (not LeibEl), written as Lambiam indicates, is the diminutive form of the Yiddish word for "lion." Phonologically it seems closest to the OP's "lable" (rhymes with "table;" or "label"?). The association with the English name Louis is the shared initial letter, a common naming practice among Jews of Ashkenazic (Yiddish-speaking) origins. Otherwise, there's no particular correspondence with the English-language men's name Louis (pronounced LEW-is, rather than as the French, lou-EE), nor with any Hebrew name. The Hebrew word for lion is aryeh, and for lion cub, gur-aryeh, with no phonological correspondence. -- Deborahjay 05:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Allegedly and similar adverbs

We often see sentences in the form "X allegedly committed illegal act Y". "Allegedly" is an adverb of manner. Adverbs of manner describe the manner in which an act was done. An adverb can, theoretically, be removed without altering the essential meaning of the act described. (E.g. If the initial sentence is "He walked quickly", it's still true to say "He walked".) However, if we remove "allegedly", this turns it into a statement that X did Y, which dramatically alters the meaning. It's equivalent to replacing "allegedly" with "definitely". Does this suggest that we need to expand our definition of what the function of an adverb is? In particular, if after investigation it's determined that X did nothing illegal at all, the original sentence is describing an act that never occurred. Or, maybe, we should regard the verb not as "committed" but "allegedly committed". But that would require a hyphen, I guess ("X allegedly-committed illegal act Y"; but even then, it's still saying X did something he may not have done at all). Does anyone have the faintest idea of what I'm talking about? JackofOz 04:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just realised that the sentence "An adverb can, theoretically, be removed without altering the essential meaning of the act described" is another example of this. If I remove "theoretically", the sentence then provides the very example of what I'm arguing is not always the case. JackofOz 04:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

W.M. Baskervill, writing in "An English Grammar" (1896), asserts that there are also "adverbs of assertion":

telling the speaker's belief or disbelief in a statement, or how far he believes it to be true; as perhaps, maybe, surely, possibly, probably, not, etc.

I tend to chalk these kinds of anomalies up to fitting the round peg of English grammar into the square hole of Latin wannabe-ism. link --TotoBaggins 04:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not at all: Latin too has adverbs like fortasse "possibly". --Ptcamn 05:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. In the cases I'm talking about, the newspaper/TV reporter is not taking any kind of stance about the guilt or innocence of X, but merely stating the fact that someone has alleged that X did Y. I suspect this crept into the language at some point, as a shorthand way of saying just that, eg. "The police have alleged that X did Y". Until the court or whoever says otherwise, it is not the case that X did Y, allegedly or any other way. JackofOz 05:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Modern linguists tend to define parts of speech on grammatical rather than semantic grounds: "allegedly" and "quickly" are adverbs simply because it's possible to say "X allegedly committed illegal act Y" and "X quickly committed illegal act Y", while things like *X knife committed illegal act Y" or *X bad committed illegal act Y" are ungrammatical.

Where'd you get that definition of adverb, anyway? I don't think it's standard. --Ptcamn 05:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is allegedly, unlike quickly, a disjunct? ---Sluzzelin talk 12:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In traditional (peg-deforming) grammar, one sometimes speaks of words that modify the entire sentence. For example, and for what it's worth, Smyth's Greek Grammar (traditional old-fashioned) section 1094 distinguishes "ordinary adverbs" from "sentence adverbs (or particles)...adverbs that affect the sentence as a whole," under which he includes words translatable as "surely," "perhaps," and "not." Wareh 15:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

When X-ly is an adverb of manner, it may be replaced by in an X manner or in an X way. For example, Reality cruelly ended my reverie means: Reality ended my reverie in a cruel manner. So the manner in which reality put an end to my happy reverie was cruel. And Customs official stealthily took bribes from travellers caught smuggling is the same as Customs official took bribes in a stealthy way from travellers caught smuggling. The way in which the villain of the story took the money was stealthy. But you cannot rephrase Customs official allegedly took bribes from travellers caught smuggling as Customs official took bribes in an alleged way from travellers caught smuggling. That means something different. Therefore allegedly should not be considered an adverb of manner here. It does fit the description of "sentence adverb" above as well as that given under disjunct – a term I had not heard before, but also used here. I hope that by stating all this I am not infringing upon a patent.  --Lambiam^Talk 15:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You're ok, as long as you don't choose to produce a Tarzan-type yell while doing so. :) --TotoBaggins 17:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The simplest example of an adverb that qualifies away from the "essential meaning" is not. JackofOz's problem with "allegedly" seems to be the same one many people have with "hopefully". Adverbs can be adjuncts, subjuncts, conjuncts, and/or disjuncts. Just as one and the same word can function as noun and verb in different contexts, so too can an adverb function as subjunct in one, adjunct of degree in another, and adjunct of modality in still another. jnestorius^(talk) 22:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I, too, was thinking of an analogy to "hopefully", which was once considered an incorrect use: hopefully: "it is hoped; if all goes well: Hopefully, we will get to the show on time."

"—Usage note: Although some strongly object to its use as a sentence modifier, hopefully meaning “it is hoped (that)” has been in use since the 1930s and is fully standard in all varieties of speech and writing: Hopefully, tensions between the two nations will ease. This use of hopefully is parallel to that of certainly, curiously, frankly, regrettably, and other sentence modifiers."

So, "Joe allegedly robbed the bank" = "Allegedly, Joe robbed the bank" = "(It is alleged that) Joe robbed the bank."

Or "allegedly" might modify, not how Joe robbed the bank, but (by implication) how the police statement was made: "(The police stated) allegedly, (i.e., without the proof provided by conviction in court) Joe robbed the bank."

In US criminal theory, only a jury or judge can state as a fact that someone has committed a certain crime. It is the job of the police to make such statements, but they make such statements allegedly, i. e. in an alleged (not yet legally proven) manner, just as they might make such a statement carelessly, carefully, loudly, etc.

Comments? Unimaginative Username 00:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those very informative responses, folks. It now seems clear that "allegedly" is a disjunct, or perhaps a sentence adverb, in the example I gave. I wrongfully mischaracterised it as an adverb of manner, so I shamefully and sheepishly hang my head. JackofOz 00:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Follow up question on disjunct

The article on disjunct states the following:

"Sometimes, the same word or phrase can be interpreted either as a disjunct or as a simple adjunct:

They worked honestly in an underground diamond mine run by elves."

Can honestly honestly be interpreted as a disjunct here? If not, can someone come up with a better example? Thank you in advance. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you honestly say that it can't be interpreted as a disjunct?  --Lambiam^Talk 10:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hah! Hmm, maybe I honestly misinterpreted the example's intention. I thought it was supposed to be ambiguous, in which case, I think, the sentence's word order should be:

"They honestly worked in an underground diamond mine run by elves."

The ambiguity is conceivable. I could be telling my niece:

"You know, your great-grandparents once worked for elves."

Niece: "You're messing with me, there are no such beings as elves."

"No, they honestly worked in an underground diamond mine run by elves."

But maybe the sentence is merely exemplifying an adjunct usage of honestly, with no disjunct ambiguity? ---Sluzzelin talk 11:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The statement in the article is (in my opinion) correct, but the example is not, or is at least not felicitous, if meant to illustrate it. Here is another ambiguous case:

I will walk the road to paradise, and they will hopefully follow me.

 --Lambiam^Talk 21:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone else here agree with me that the Disjunct (linguistics) article is in error in describing "sentence adverbs" as a subset of disjuncts? My problem is that a sentence adverb like "not" (though I've always thought of main verbs as being negated in negative clauses, everyone seems to call it a sentence adv.) is certainly not inessential to the sense of the sentence. My tentative conclusion is that either the article's definition ("extra" information about the speaker's attitude) needs to be fixed, or the classification (sentence adverbs an example of disjuncts) needs to be corrected. Wareh 17:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

IMHO. using consistently correct word order avoids ambiguity. (or, "Consistently using correct word order avoids ambiguity. But "Using correct word order consistently avoids ambiguity" leaves open whether we are consistently being correct, or consistently avoiding ambiguity.) "They worked honestly in a mine" makes clear that "honestly" describes how they worked. "Honestly, they worked in a mine" indicates the sentence adverb, with "honestly" describing how the speaker is speaking, vs. e. g., "Allegedly, they worked in a mine." (as in the OP) "I'm telling you the truth: They worked in a mine." The example, "They honestly worked in a mine" does leave both possibilities open, and therefore, should be avoided. Not every possible sentence construction is desirable. If there is a compelling reason why the affirmation of truth must come immediately before the verb, one could choose different words: "They did, in fact, work in a mine." Would that writers would consider possible misinterpretations when choosing their words! Unimaginative Username 20:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that classify "not" as a sentence adverb? The business of classifying adverbs seems to me a bit old-fashioned – there are always somehow cases that don't comfortably fit in the classification scheme – but if we follow the definition given in our article Disjunct (linguistics), well, in a sentence like "This morning the car would not start", the word "not" does not convey the mood, attitude or sentiments of the speaker, and does not have the character of a sentence adverb. Not surprisingly, you cannot say: *"Not, the car would start this morning". Compare this with "The car will hopefully be fixed by the end of the week".  --Lambiam^Talk 21:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

My only source for "not" as a sentence adverb is Smyth's Greek Grammar, as linked above.[1] I'm not committed to the idea myself at all (as I suggested, I certainly tell my Greek students that in negated clauses, "not" modifies the main verb, etc.). But since I assume Smyth didn't invent the notion on his own, I wanted to make sure that the article's confident assertion that "sentence adverbs" are completely contained within the notion presented (certainly, maybe, etc.) seems correct to editors more interested & expert in linguistics. Wareh 13:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

One could speak the sentence "The car will hopefully be fixed by the end of the week", but when written, wouldn't it be best to enclose hopefully with commas? ("The car will, hopefully, be fixed by the end of the week"). To indicate that it's parenthetical, and could just as well have started the sentence? ("Hopefully, the car will be fixed by the end of the week"). Cars do not enjoy hope and cannot be full of it; their owners do (and often are). :) JackofOz 23:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, ideally, all speakers would not only consider possible misinterpretations when choosing their words, but also pepper their prose with proper punctuation. Ideally, the car would not have broken down in the first place. And there are still plenty of folks who feel that this use of the word hopefully is hopelessly wrong anyway, also when explicitly parenthetical. But – as far as I know – putting the word right there in the middle and leaving out these commas is not wrong. A literary author might deliberately omit the commas for a stylistic effect. Many speakers, in saying this, would have no problem with the word order and would certainly not insert a pause before or after the word hopefully.  --Lambiam^Talk 00:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed the example on the disjunct page before I scrolled down and saw this question. (It now reads "They honestly worked in an underground diamond mine run by elves.", illustrating the possible ambiguity of such sentences.) Tesseran 08:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Using erzählen with von

I'm learning this word myself. When I see some sentences using this word with von, I don't understand and try to consult dictionaries. Yet, I still got no answers.

I type some two sample sentences here. Would someone explain how to use the strcture, please?

Helga erzählt der Mutter von ihrer Lehrerin.

Question: Von wem erzählen Sie Ihren Eltern? (Herr Braun)

My book says this is SUBJECT + VERB (+ DATIV) + PRÄPOSITIONALOBJEKT:von.

--Fitzwilliam 05:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Von in this case means "about" and is used the same way. Helga erzählt der Mutter von ihrer Lehrerin = "Helga tells Mother about her teacher". Von wem erzählen Sie Ihren Eltern? = "Who are you telling your parents about?" —Angr 05:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I had thought the verb would change its meaning when used with von.--Fitzwilliam 07:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

offer advice for/on/about...

which preposition should i use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.121.36.10 (talk) 06:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Depends what you're offering advice on/for/about. 213.48.15.234 06:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"This book contains advice on framistan maintenance for novices." on and about are often synonymous. —Tamfang 07:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

On is generally to be preferred (at least in British English) but there are contexts in which about is better (e.g. "I'd like your advice about something"). The OED citations have twice as many of the former. For most purposes, why use the vague "about" when you can use the more definite "on"? "For" addresses the person advised rather than the topic of the advice.--Shantavira 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

POSSESIVES 'S AND S'

WHICH IS THE CORRECT USE OF 'S/S'

Dr. Evans's nurse has the report. Dr. Evans' nurse has the report.

Dr. Gimenez's nurse has the report. Dr. Gimenez' nurse has the report. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.172.10.35 (talk) 14:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

On Wikipedia, "Dr. Evans's" is preferred: see Wikipedia:Manual_of_style#Usage. Presumably the same for Gimenez. However, for plural nouns, just ' is used (I think): e.g. "Dr. Evans's nurse will have the report in two days' time". There are of course exceptions. The Guardian style guide agrees. So does the US government style guide. The York University style guide does not. Who are you writing for? If they have a style, follow it, otherwise it looks like you have a number of options. Algebraist 15:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It's another house style question. As someone reasonably well-versed in current mainstream UK practice, I'd say apostrophe-S is the straightforward rule: Dr Evans's office, Dr Gimenez's stethoscope, Calais's Rodin sculptures, Dickens's house, Tom Hanks's last film.

You might just be able to contrive examples where a plural-sounding noun can be treated as singular, but where it really would sound wrong with an apostrophe-S: for instance, "The Lindisfarne Gospels is in the British Library" can sound correct depending on house style, but "The Gospels's main claim to fame..." sounds horrible. Well, it did at first, but now I've said it so many times it sounds OK.

The answer depends on who you're working for, especially if they're writing the cheques. - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

In the book "eats shoots and leaves" by Lynne Truss, I think there was a section on this that had something to do with what type of name it was but I'ver forgotten it. Does anyone have the book handy? Storeye 06:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If Lynne Truss were here, she'd take you to task for not spelling and punctuating the name of her book correctly; in particular, for omitting the comma after "eats", without which the entire point of the pun is missed. Either that, or she'd wring her hands, gnash her teeth and pull out her hair, wailing pitifully "Where have I gone wrong!!"  :) JackofOz 23:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's very interesting to me that "RA" above makes reference to one convention or the other "sounding horrible". The issue of how to pronounce the possessive form of Jesus is independent of whether you write it Jesus' or Jesus's. Tesseran 08:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Spanish wiki

The article about the phrase "veni, vidi, vici" on the Spanish wikipedia has recently been moved to , apparently under the assumption that "vinci" is the correct perfect tense of "vincere". This seems to be true in Spanish, but it's definitely not in Latin, and it amazes me that someone could screw up such a well-known phrase like that. I don't have an account there and I don't know enough Spanish to fix it myself, so can someone help? (I asked this on Talk:Veni, vidi, vici too, but nothing happened.) Adam Bishop 14:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved it back. I hope it sticks; I don't know enough Spanish to engage in an edit war. —Angr 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Type O Negative

In the Type O Negative song She Burned Me Down. Off the Album Dead Again. The singer sings in Icelandic or Russian or some thing, what language is he speaking and what is he saying? Thanks81.144.161.223 15:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Mssrs.

Is it acceptable to use the 'Mssrs.' for a group of mixed gender? If not, is there an alternative pluralised title? Ninebucks 15:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that the answers are no, and no. If you are using the title in an address, you could omit the title from the address entirely (e.g. "Smith, Jones, and Rodriguez; 15 Wiki Way; London, Ontario N9A 3H5" or whatever). If you are using the title in a salutation, you might think about replacing the titles and names with a more general greeting, such as "Dear Neighbors", "Dear Occupants", "Dear Colleagues" or whatever. Alternatively, you could list each with his or her title ("Dear Mr. Smith, Ms. Jones, and Mr. Rodriguez"). It seems to be rather awkward to use "Dear Messrs. Smith and Rodriguez and Ms. Jones". In fact, "Mssrs." is very seldom used these days in any context. Marco polo 18:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what made you think of that address, but N9A 3H5 is a real postal code in Windsor, Ontario! Adam Bishop 22:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"Gentlepersons:" (my own invention, thank you :-) Unimaginative Username 21:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You can use "Messers", as in "Messers Smith and Jones". Corvus cornix 01:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen "Messers" before, Corvus. Can you provide a source for this? JackofOz 01:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. There are lots of Google hits for "messers". Corvus cornix 02:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that's something I've learned today. One thing to note is that the plural of Mr. is Messrs. In writing, Messrs is distinguishable from Messers; but in speaking they'd sound much the same. So I guess that means they'll soon enough merge into one title term for any group of adults regardless of their gender mix. JackofOz 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd never seen "Messers" before, either - in my Google search "messrs" is about 15 times as common, and I'd reckon people have just started writing down what they've heard rather than using the correct written abbreviation for messieurs. Incidentally, in Welsh we've got a similar odd plural for "mistar" (Mr.) - "meistri" (Mri.)! -- Arwel (talk) 07:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think "Messers" for "Messrs." is wrong, even if people write it, just like some may write "accomodation", "neccesery", or "Tolkein", for "accommodation", "necessary", and "Tolkien". To be called a messer is actually rather insulting. Don't use it in your application letter for a job as copy editor.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What does the acronym 'Bebo' stand for

What does the letters of the acronym 'Bebo' stand for as in the on-line community Bebo?

Many thanks if you are able to answer,

Craig.[email removed]--82.71.51.179 17:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I assume it's a shortening of peekaboo.--Shantavira 17:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Or Peepo? Skittle 19:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)We have no article on Janet and Allan Ahlberg, or any of their books? How can this be?EDIT:Done. Please improve.

My British family say "Pee-Bo" where normal right-thinking Americans like me would say "Peekaboo!" (so it's not as far from peekaboo as you might think). Tesseran 08:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as i am aware it's not an acronym --194.176.105.39 14:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Urine

Can anyone tell me how the word "Pee" came to be synonomous with Urine?

It's from "piss", which is vulgar and taboo, so using the first letter as a euphonym for the whole word has made it more acceptable. Adam Bishop 22:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And "piss" is from Old French pissier (to urinate), which comes from Latin pissiare. --Tugbug 22:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which is also onomatopoeic. Unimaginative Username 00:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Arab for "prison"

I thought the Arab word for "prison" sounded vaguely like "bastion", but that's of French origin, and that surely can't be the case? 81.93.102.185 21:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The Arabic word for prison is "sijn", or alternately "mahbas", which are both from pure Arabic roots (sajana and habasa). Bastion is indeed of French origin (though probably ultimately from Germanic), but I suppose mahbas sounds sort of similar...is that what you were thinking of? Or perhaps there is a non-standard borrowing from French in certain Arabic dialects? Adam Bishop 22:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

May 16

Categorical Assertion

Can anyone tell me what a categorical assertion is? Thanks! --Ali 04:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a statement about an entire category, rather than individual members of that category, like "all cats are sneaky" or "all categorical assertions are false". StuRat 04:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that was simpler than I thought... Thanks StuRat! --Ali 04:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Colloquially, 'categorical' is sometimes used as a lazy synonym for 'definite'. This interview from the Guardian newspaper, for example, poses the question, "So just to be categorical: John Terry was not involved?" Goodness only knows what a philosopher would make of that! RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 11:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

The first meaning of categorical listed here is: "without exceptions or conditions; absolute; unqualified and unconditional: a categorical denial. The interviewer apparently wanted to hear a categorical denial of John Terry's involvement from the interviewee. An example of a categorical denial is Alger Hiss's statement: "I am not and have never been a member of the Communist party. I do not and have not adhered to the tenets of the Communist party." Note that a categorical proposition is a very different thing; some cats are tailless is one. Here "categorical" has another meaning: pertaining to a category (in this case, the proposition is that some cats belong to the category of tailless things). In "categorical imperative", we are back to the meaning of "without exception" (which is not the same as "unexceptional").  --Lambiam^Talk 12:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair point! Thanks - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 14:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

what language is this?

Nodo ga kara kara. *sigh* Kafunshou de hanamizu ga tomaranai. Gaara-kun, aishiteru... demo orewa doriimu yaku waga purinsu. Gomen nasai, Gaara-kun. *sigh* Kakushigoto ha yoku nai yo, demo shinjitsu wo shiranai hou ga ii toki mo aru. Wakarimasen demo mou iya! Sumimasen. Nande sou naru no. Nanda sou naru no? *shrugs* Sokomade sekinin wo toru koto ha dekimasen. Watashi no koto kirai nan da, purinsu. Nido to aitaku nai. Hai, hai... Atarashii oshigoto demo ganbatte kudasai. Karada ni ki wo tsukete ne. Sayonara, Gaara-sama.

can you please tell me which language is this n what does it mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Warriorzsoul (talk • contribs) 06:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

It's Japanese. Sayanara at the end is a valediction. --Tony Sidaway 06:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It is Japanese and it looks like it might be from Naruto. In either way, I think some sort of copyright has been violated with its posting.—Ryulong 06:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I shouldn't worry about copyright. The piece posted is barely long enough for us to decide that it's Japanese, and where it's probably from. --Tony Sidaway 06:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It is Japanese. Here is the translation:

I am thirsty.*sigh*. I have hayfever and my nose won't stop running. Gaara-kun (male name)...I love you. But, I (male) am the Prince of Dreams. I am sorry, Gaara-kun. It is no good to hide things, but there are also times when it is better not to know something. I don't understand, but no more! I am sorry. Why have you become like this? Why have you become like this? *shrugs* I cannot take this much responsibility. Prince, you hate me. You don't want to meet me again. Yes, yes... But, work hard at your new job. Take care of yourself. Goodbye, Gaara-sama (male name). Manga 14:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that the speaker addresses Gaara with two different honorifics: -kun, which is informal and intimate (used towards males), and -sama, which is used toward persons much higher in rank than oneself. --mglg_(talk) 20:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

missing words and mispronunciation

My 5 year old son pronounces his TH sound (ie THis, THese, THat) as a v (ie Vis, Vese, Vat) and also, when asking a question, he will miss out the second word of the sentence (ie, "please you help me?" instead of "please will you help me"). are there any terms for this - he's due to see a speech therapist soon and I'd like any info I can before hand so he/she doesn't baffle me with science.

thanks Spiggy83.104.131.135 13:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

He's using a labiodental fricative ([v]) instead of an interdental fricative ([ð]). Also, he's leaving out auxiliary verbs. I'm not an expert on language acquisition, and I don't have my textbooks with me, but these sort of simplifications, ex. consonant mergers (similar fricatives are being used) and auxiliary verb dropping (simpler syntax, with one less verb) seem natural in the acquisition of language. If you feel your son is doing it for too long, bring it up with the speech therapist, but I wouldn't be surprised if he/she says it's normal. --Kjoonlee 16:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If the speech therapist says something you do not fully understand, you should ask them to explain it. The "th" sounds are among the last sounds for many kids (and learners of English as a second language) to get right.  --Lambiam^Talk 18:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

thanks for that info spiggy 83.104.131.135 10:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The Cockney accent does not distinguish thin/fin or that/vat. jnestorius^(talk) 19:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've read the "th" sound is typically the last to be mastered by children. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon word formation

I know it is possible to form Anglo-Saxon words for people from adjectives by adding -ing to the end. E.g. ætheling. Is it possible to do a similar thing from verbs, in a similar way to the modern -er (e.g. murderer, from to murder)? Cyta 14:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the suffix -er is derived from the Anglo-Saxon suffix -ere, with essentially the same meaning. I'm not sure about the rules for combining the suffix, but I would guess that it was added to the verb stem in Anglo-Saxon. Marco polo 17:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Wish I'd paid more attention to German grammar at school I might actually understand some of these cases and things. I am impressed that an uneducated (relative to today) population, who couldn't read and write much could remember what seems to me an immensely complicated language, but I suppose if you grow up speaking it you just know what's right or wrong. Cyta 08:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Useage of IS/ARE

WHICH IS CORRECT:

No dysplasia or malignancy is identified. No dysplasia or malignancy are identified.

A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed. A copy of the pathology report and cytology report are enclosed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.172.10.35 (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

"No dysplasia or malignancy is identified." is correct. OR means it's either one or the other. "A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed." is correct, since the A indicates that it's singular, i.e. it's one report. If it's two reports it should of course be "Copies of the pathology report and cytology report are enclosed." i.e. one of each.--Shantavira 17:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Right response, minor adjustment to the reason: "A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed." It is not "report" that is singular; it's "copy". The subject of the sentence is "copy". Easy way to know which to use: Remove the prepositional phrase and take the sentence down to subject and verb: "A copy is enclosed". Now, "A copy are enclosed" sounds rather funny, doesn't it? This editor finds that similar errors in subject/verb number agreement are common; the suggested method makes the correct verb easy to find. Unimaginative Username 20:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Proverbs?

== I cried on Christmas morning when I had no shoes.Then I saw a man who had no feet. == Where does it come from? What is the rest of it.

The purse lies open and the golden coin is spent.81.145.240.147 20:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC) Where does it come from and is there any more to it?

Firstly, there are many variants of your first quote but I have never encountered a christmas-related one before. Secondly, Google reveals this page (scroll to the bottom) which recounts a previous investigation. The earliest occurrence mentioned is the Gulistan of Sa'di, written in 1258. Of course, it's possible that Sa'di was using an earlier proverb. Various webpages (such as [7]) have the full (translated!) text confirming this. Wikiquote will include this shortly. Algebraist 22:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of the rest of it, a common joke (google knows many instances) continues "So I took his shoes. He didn't need them" or similar. Algebraist 22:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"I was sad when I had no shoes, until I saw a man with no feet. That made me think 'I bet he doesn't need his shoes any more, and even if he won't give them away, it's not like he's going to catch me when I steal them.'. " StuRat 00:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"I cried because I had no shoes, 'till I met a man who had no feet. So I said, 'You got any shoes you're not using'?" -- Steven Wright Corvus cornix 02:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Need help with Hebrew in a new article

I have just edited and uploaded an article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari. It contains four Hebrew words, but as images rather than characters. I'm not familiar with the Hebrew alphabet, and the font is not the same as the font in Wikipedia's Hebrew alphabet article, so I'm not certain I've made the correct conversions. Can someone who knows Hebrew please verify the characters I put in the article? Thanks. The original article is at [8] --Rbraunwa 21:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I know the Hebrew alphabet, but my knowledge of Hebrew is very limited. I find these small and fuzzy letters hard to read. Here is what I think they spell out:

1. מי כמוך‎
2. לבני יצהר‎

This is the same as in the article Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari, except that there the word-final form of the letter Mem is used twice in non-final position twice in item 1 (םי כםוך). If make a copy of the wiki source text here, you will get slightly larger print. --Lambiam^Talk 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (edited 23:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC))

Done. It's םי כםוך (who is like thee?) and לבני יצהר (to the children of Yitzhar). I note that, while the text itself is presumably in the public domain, the page you pointed to asserts copyright. --ColinFine 22:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've copied over the versions as above.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks all. If the external site asserts copyright, it is only of additions to the original text (formatting, indexing, posting, etc.). Copyright of the text itself has certainly expired. This is part of a Wikiproject to incorporate the wikified and edited text from the Encyclopedia. --Rbraunwa 00:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

french schools

ok im doing this thing for school but i cannot find anything on the canteens and the school hours can someone please help me?!?!?! i would like to know what sort of food they serve and the school times any help would be greatly appreciated Sammie hero 22:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)sammie_hero

• This may help on the hours: http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-education/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=78. I seem to recall that traditionally French children went to school on Saturdays, and walked home for lunch. But things are changing. Notinasnaid 11:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

May 17

Italics

Am I correct in assuming that the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets are the only writing systems to customarily use italic type? I'm positive it isn't used in the CJK systems, or in the various South and Southeast Asian abugidas, or in the Hebrew and Arabic abjads. Is it used in Armenian, Georgian, or Greek? —Angr 00:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

it's indeed often used in today's Chinese publications, obviously influenced by the European practice. I used to rant at those who do that (skewed Chinese characters 漢字!!! Are you kidding me?), but many people have no problem with it, and I'm now more or less accustomed to it.--K.C. Tang 01:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's oblique type, not true italic type, though. I mean true italics. —Angr 01:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Is the Chinese system semantically equivalent to the European system, though? Marnanel 01:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

In Chinese "italic" is simply known as "skewed form". The "italic" function in Word just makes the characters oblique, instead of changing them into another font. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's OK, we're already a step ahead of them.  :) --TotoBaggins 04:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This is partly a matter of definition. You say 'Latin and Cyrillic', but there is no mention of Cyrillic in italic type or vice versa. I agree that the Cyrillic 'kursivniy' is like italic type in that many letters are very different from their upright version (rather more so than in italic type in fact), but if you are going to talk about 'true italics' you cannot include Cyrillic - indeed, by definition, 'italic' should only refer to Roman type!

Having said this, it is true that most alphabets have neither case distinctions or distinct forms corresponding to italics. Cursive Georgian has some letters which are unrecognisable against their print variants, and cursive Hebrew is almost completely illegible to somebody who only knows the print form; but I am not aware that either of these cursive forms are ever used in printing. --ColinFine 07:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If you use the criterium from our article Italic type – cursive typefaces based on a stylized form of calligraphic handwriting – then I would say that the classic forms of the hiragana syllabary qualify. For Greek, the classic fonts as you see here, are also italic type; just like the minuscules of the Latin alphabet, a shape like ξ, for example, developed in handwriting from Ξ from quick writing, in this case by not lifting the pen between the three horizontal strokes.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

But Latin and Cyrillic are the only writing systems in which a cursive/slanted/handwriting-based variant is used in printing and alongside the regular printed versions, right? I have read that katakana is sometimes used in Japanese for emphasis, much the way italics are used in Latin alphabets. And pace ColinFine, I think the term italics can be sensibly used for Cyrillic kursivniy as well, and some books on typography I've read do so. Maybe I'll add something to italic type about it today. —Angr 09:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Modern Greek typography may mix fonts, using a cursive font next to a modern sans-serif-like font with no contrast between thick and thin lines; for instance, headings may be cursive while the running text is not. However, as far as I have noticed and remember, they are not mixed in running text, with one serving for emphasis.  --Lambiam^Talk 10:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's what I was getting at. The Elements of Typographic Style says "most Greek faces are like Renaissance italics: upright, formal capitals married to a flowing, often sloping, lower case. No real supporting face has developed in the Greek typographic tradition: no face that augments and contrasts with the primary alphabet as italic does with roman." Cyrillic does have such a face, but otherwise writing systems don't seem to do this, with the possible exception of katakana, which could be considered to "augment and contrast with" hiragana, although the details of when each is used are different from the Latin/Cyrillic traditions. —Angr 10:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The point is well taken that in Greek italics are not used for emphasis. But there is plenty of typographic precedent (my knowledge is of books in Ancient Greek) for using upright and italic alongside each other—to distinguish lemmata, to distinguish apparatus from text, and the like. Enough so that I find it disappointing that, to the best of my knowledge, there are only two decent freely-available Unicode fonts that provide upright and italic polytonic Greek character sets (Gentium, Old Standard). Wareh 13:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Help with Sentence Structure

I am having a hard time coming up with an alternative or finding a good on-line grammar checker. Any ideas would be much appreciated!

"It was towards the end of summer when I clearly remember watching the television and seeing a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas."

Robvalhed 02:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

One thing that I noticed is that you're using 2 different time frames. "It was towards the end of summer" is an indefinite time - it could mean almost any day in August (I assume you're in the northern hemisphere); whereas "I clearly remember watching the television ..." obviously occurred at a specific time on a specific day. You could rectify this by starting "It was one day towards the end of summer ...". (This kind of thing reminds me of the possibly apocryphal story of the person who stated on their car insurance claim form "I had been driving without incident for 25 years when, suddenly, the other car came out of nowhere and smashed into me".) JackofOz 03:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am leery of failing to agree with JackofOz, who writes so elegantly of many things, but I don't find anything wrong with the original sentence. It is not even a case of "watching the television in my pajamas", which would be an odd place to put the set. The expression "watching THE television" is not North American, though. We would drop the article and say "watching television". Bielle 03:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What about "clearly remember"? Isn't that totally messed up? I can't figure out whether the person was remembering (back in August) one day when they were watching the TV or the person is now remembering a day, when it was towards the end of summer (in August), and they (then) were watching the TV, etc. A.Z. 03:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What about something like "I clearly remember seeing a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas on TV towards the end of summer"? What's the key point of the sentence? That it was summer, that you saw the depression develop on TV, that it developed in the Bahamas, that it was summer? Think about this... it might pay to split the sentence into 2 (could get messy, though) or at least put the most important part first maybe... I dunno, up to you! Aaadddaaammm 04:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the lovely compliment, Bielle. I will name my next daughter after you.  :) JackofOz 04:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It was last year when I remembered feeding the gulls does, in the most normal interpretation, not mean the same as I remembered feeding the gulls last year. In the first sentence the event that is supposed to have been last year is the speaker's act of remembering. In the second one – at least according to the more common interpretation – it is their feeding the gulls. Actually there are two possible interpretations, whose respective structures can be indicated by bracketing, thus:

• I remembered [[feeding the gulls] last year].
• [I remembered [feeding the gulls]] last year.

Only in the second case can you rephrase this as last year, [I remembered [feeding the gulls]] by moving last year to the front, which then can be replaced, for emphasis or effect, by it was last year, when. Now the intended meaning of the sentence in the question is presumably similar to the first of these; in the form suggested by Aaadddaaammm:

• I clearly remember [[seeing a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas on TV] towards the end of summer].

Here, too, you cannot move towards the end of the summer from inside the bracketing to the front. (I am not saying that in standard English you can never move any sentence part from inside a structure to outside, but just that it is a bad idea to do it here. Otherwise things get confused, or, in A.Z.'s terminology, "messed up"; you can no longer see what modifies what.) Without the remembering aspect, you have

• [I saw a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas on TV] towards the end of summer,

and now you can turn this into

• It was towards the end of summer, when [I saw a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas on TV].

If now you must say that this whole thing is something you remember now, you can insert it as a parenthesis, for example thus:

• It was towards the end of summer, when – I remember it clearly – [I saw a tropical depression develop out in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas on TV].

Stylistically – admittedly a matter of taste – this doesn't get high marks with me. It breaks the suspense and the setting of the time frame introduced by it was towards the end of summer. And it is somewhat superfluous; of course you, the speaker, remember it; otherwise how could you be telling us this. If it is the act of remembering that you want to focus the reader's attention on, à la Proust, then the Aaadddaaammmian version is stylistically better.  --Lambiam^Talk 06:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Other editors have tackled the troublesome opening phrase, and I'm not sure of the surrounding context, so I'll address a couple other concerns. As originally written, it seems that two distinct events are being remembered - a) watching TV, and b) seeing a tropical depression develop. Thus, I'd want to clean up that portion - perhaps "I clearly remember watching the television and seeing reports of a tropical depression developing ..." That's quite wordy though, so I'd trim it some more - "I clearly remember seeing (broadcast/televised/TV reports) of a tropical depression developing ..." Now, about "in the Atlantic Ocean near the Bahamas" - generally, if one is near the Bahamas, one is in the Atlantic Ocean, so we can strip that out - "I clearly remember seeing TV reports of a tropical depression developing near the Bahamas." You can say "just west of the Bahamas" if necessary. --LarryMac | Talk 13:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That sentence reads perfectly fine to me. "I clearly remember that it was towards the end of summer" ... would have the same meaning. Corvus cornix 20:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hop Schwiz

Anyone know anything about this Swiss sporting chant? I guess speaking three languages they needed some neutral mix of Suisse, Schweiz and Svizzera so everyone could join in supporting the national side, but that's simply my guess. It doesn't appear to be Romansh, and I can't find anything on where Hopp comes from. The spelling also appears not to have been standardised so I guess it grew up through spoken language. Any more insights would be interesting? Cyta 08:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Swiss German word for Switzerland is pronounced [ʃviːts], not [ʃvaits] as in Standard German, so it's probably just that rather than being a "neutral mix" of Schweiz, Suisse, and Svizzera. The name of the canton of Schwyz (and its capital Schwyz) is actually identical to the name of the country in Swiss German. —Angr 10:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I hadn't thought that it might be pronounced differently in Swiss German. And I guess it's just a phonetic spelling? Do you know anything about the word Hopp? Cyta 11:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's probably just an interjection, like hoppla! in Standard German. —Angr 12:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, a lot! Cyta 13:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, in Turkish hop is a noun that (like in English) means "jump". It can be used by itself as an exclamation, and then is an encouragement to jump. It can also be used in a regular way to form a verb; just like the noun an (mind, perception) gives rise to the verb anlamak (to understand) by appending the verbal suffix -la + the infinitive suffix -mak, and zor (constraint) gives zorlamak (to constrain), so hop gives the verb hoplamak (to jump). To form the imperative in Turkish, just remove the infinitive suffix: anla (understand!), zorla (constrain!), hopla (jump!). So in Turkish hopla is not just another lexical item, but a verb form, formed in a regular way. I can't help wondering whether hop(p)la in other languages somehow goes back to Turkish.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I know a lot of Turks move to Germany, so if this is a recent thing maybe it's influenced by that. There is a French phrase hoop-là, which apparently translates as oopsy-daisy and gives hoopla (according to [9] anyway). Also apparently hopla is a Greek plural meaning arms (as in weapons). Funny how all these words appear the same isn't it. Cyta 07:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

German hoppla also basically means "oopsy-daisy" and has been around longer than the post-World War II immigration of Turks to Germany. Bertolt Brecht uses it in The Threepenny Opera, which premiered in 1928.

The French word is hop (sounds almost like English up), optionally extended with là ('there'). English alley-oop seems to come from French allez, hop. —Tamfang 05:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

In Schwyzertütsch, "Hopp!" means "go!" as a command of action, or when rooting for your team. There's the slightly old-fashioned and corny "Hopp de Bäse!" ("Go, the broom!") in the sense of "let's get going", "hop to it", once again demonstrating Switzerland's reputation of being a nation of neat freaks. German has several cognate words for the English to hop: "hüpfen" (hopping the way frogs and grasshoppers do it on two legs, and humans on one leg), "hoppeln" (hopping the way rabbits hop), "hopsen", and there is a famous German nursery rhyme titled "Hoppe, hoppe, Reiter" where "hoppe" stands for the bumpy ride on a horse. Another children's rhyme goes "Hopp, hopp, hopp, Pferdchen lauf Galopp", where "hopp" could be translated as giddyup. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Who was Joseph M. Williams ?

Who was Joseph M. Williams ?What has he written in his book Origins of the English Language ?--Bharti4 13:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

A Google search on "Origins of the English Language" Joseph Williams will reveal many sources for the answers to these homework questions. -Czmtzc 13:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

HELP with word "Advise"

Please help me concerning a word I use..."advise". Am I correct or incorrect to state "Please advise -" to a business associate, when asking for their input/response to something? Spelled phonetically the word would be "advize". I am not asking for their "advice", but rather their response. In regard to them asking them a question, I might ask..."Please advise me of the outcome". Is this correct or incorrect?

Dave

Yes, that is correct usage; see definition 2 at Wiktionary. --LarryMac | Talk 15:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It might help to remember that in British English (not American English) the verb takes an S and the noun takes a C in words such as advise/advice, devise/device, license/licence, and practise/practice.--Shantavira 18:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This noun-verb change is also true of Canadian English, Shantavira. Bielle 19:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Americans follow that pattern for advise/advice and devise/device, but spell both verb & noun forms of license with an "s" and practice with a "c". By the way, prophesy/prophecy form a similar pair. --Tugbug 19:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The pattern in these cases is that American usage has different spellings for the noun and verb when the pronunciation is different, and the same spelling when it is the same. --Anon, May 17, 2007, 22:35 (UTC).

Is that always true? I've seen many Wikipedia articles written in American English where "practice" is used as a verb and "practise" as a noun, but they're both pronounced the same. JackofOz 01:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe not as many as you think? I just did some Google searches in US domains and got these hit counts:

             "the practice"  site:edu  1,010,000
             "the practise"  site:edu        820

             "the practice"  site:gov  1,030,000
             "the practise"  site:gov        202

--Anonymous, May 18, 02:58 (UTC).

Tks Anon. I was referring to Wikipedia articles. JackofOz 03:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Jack, if you've seen Wikipedia articles where "practise" is used as a noun, it's just a misspelling, and feel free to correct it. American dictionaries agree that both the noun and the verb are spelled "practice". —Angr 09:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Angr. I'll take you at your word, and if anyone challenges my edits, I'll refer them to you. JackofOz 10:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Minor amendment: if you've seen Wikipedia articles in American English... I'm sure everyone here understands that some of our articles are in Commonwealth English and should be allowed to remain that way (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English). Wareh 13:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Even minorer amendment: "Practise" as a noun is still a misspelling in Commonwealth English. --Tugbug 18:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, right, Angr's reference to "American dictionaries" blinded me to the fact that Angr said "as a noun." Still, leave the verb practise unmolested in articles in Commonwealth English! Wareh 18:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Music ID

What are [10] and [11]? Black Carrot 20:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The first is O Fortuna from the Carmina Burana by Carl Orff.[midi] Number two is claimed to be Destati by Yoko Shimomura, from Kingdom Hearts; see also Kingdom Hearts Original Soundtrack and Kingdom Hearts Original Soundtrack Complete. I'm not familiar with the latter composition.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"at" or "with"

Should I say "angry with you" or "angry at you"? I think "angry at you" makes more sense because my anger is against the other person. If I say "angry with you", it sounds like I and the other person are both angry. Also, "pejorative" is a word having negative connotations. It makes sense because in spanish "peor" means "worse". "mejor" means "better". If that is so, then there has to be word that looks very close "mejor" that is the antonym of "pejorative". 69.216.16.132 21:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you can say either, and "angry with" does not suggest that the other party is also angry. There is a counterpart to pejorative, from Latin pejorare ("to make/become worse"): the adjective meliorative, from late Latin meliorare ("to improve").[12] Of course, Spanish peor and mejor come from the Latin comparatives pejor and melior. Unlike pejorative, the word meliorative is not normally used as a noun.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

To me, being "angry with" someone contains an suggestion of disappointment. If I was a politician, I might be "angry with" a member of my own party who I thought had done something stupid that made our party look bad; but if some unscrupulous member of the other party did something clever that made our party look bad, I could only be "angry at" them, not "with". However, this might just be me; I don't think it's something you could find in a dictionary, so I can't very well check. --Anonymous, May 17, 22:41 (UTC).

I think that Anonymous's examples are right. I would add that "angry with" suggests more of a relationship with the object of the anger. One is more likely to be "angry with" a person one knows and more likely to be "angry at" a stranger, an animal, or even a circumstance. I don't think that one can be "angry with" a circumstance. Marco polo 01:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

A common use of the "with" locution is "angry with oneself". -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Google searches show that "angry at oneself" (as in "he was angry at himself") is also fairly common.  --Lambiam^Talk 05:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

OED gives "at a person when the subjective feeling is denoted, with a person when the anger is manifested; but the tendency is to use with for both". Personally, I find "angry at" sounds unnatural/archaic; possibly it's an americanism? Algebraist 12:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The distinction seems (at least to me) not obviously present in Shakespeare's use. (You can search here.) The occurrences of "angry with" (I pray you, be not angry with me, madam; Good madam, be not angry with the child) appear (to me) to denote the bad feeling rather than just its expression.  --Lambiam^Talk 18:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

May 18

Twelfth Night

Hello. In Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, Sebastian claimed that he was called Roderigo. Roderigo in Twelfth Night has nothing to do with the other Roderigo in Othello. Why was Sebastian called Roderigo? Thanks. --Mayfare 01:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

'Prince' as 'ruler' in the 19th century

Someone on Slashdot asked about a 'Prince James Version' of the Bible that his family owned. Judging from the usage of the word in the Preface to the KJV and the article on Prince, 'Prince' was an acceptable generic term for sovereign when the KJV was written, and James could accurately be called a 'Prince' at the time. The question, relating to the /. comment, is: in the 1880s, when the 'Prince James Bible' appears to date from, did 'Prince' still have this meaning? --superioridad ^(discusión) 08:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the OED, the 1885 Britannica gave "The emperor of Russia, the queen of England, and the king of the Belgians are equally princes or monarchs, and the consorts of emperors or kings are princesses". No idea how widespread the usage was at the time. Algebraist 12:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Reasonably common, and reasonably official. Even today, the Great Seal of the Realm of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland characterizes the current queen as "Elizabeth II D[ei] G[ratia] Britt. [=Britanniarum] Regnorumque Suorum Ceter[orum] Regina Consortionis Populorum Princeps F[idei] D[efensor]". So she's still a prince in 2007, though of the Commonwealth, and though the "official" translation translates "princeps" as "head". Many of the announcements of the British monarchs' style see here characterize them as most excellent prince, most high and mighty Princess, etc. - Nunh-huh 12:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

apostrophe or not apostrophe... that is the question

Whether, tis nobler in the mind etc etc

Ok. if you were to use the sentence "jim had 20 years' experience" is the apostrophe in the right place - or is it needed at all?

thanks

Spiggy 83.104.131.135 14:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. Please see [13], [14]. Best regards, Dr_Dima

...as the creators of Two Weeks Notice found out thanks to Lynne Truss ;) — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 16:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

See also a related question & answer seen on this reference desk back in February. Wareh 18:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

thanks to all three of you. But especially Dr Dima for throwing in the bonus 'who' or 'whom' answer! spiggy 82.27.228.181 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Eco-terrorism confusion

My dad keeps using the word eco-terrorist to mean someone who commits heinous acts against the environment. I keep telling him that word doesn't mean what he thinks it means (it really means someone who commits terrorism in the name of the environment), but he just shrugs it off and says "Well, what word should I use instead?". Is there a nice short word he can use? 69.244.213.58 17:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

un-ecological? gas-guzzler seems to be a favourite but obviously that refers more to car-owners than as a general statement of ones lifestyle. I have heard of the "throw away generation", i.e. that we live in a generation whereby people just throw things away and replace them rather than think about getting them repaired/using them more 'ecologically'. ny156uk 17:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"polluter". - Nunh-huh 18:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting question. I'm not sure there is a term for intentionally destroying the environment, such as the Romans sowing salt into the soil of Carthage to destroy their ability to grow crops. The short-term destruction of the environment is common in warfare as the "scorched earth" defense, but the environment can recover from this in a few years, versus the salt which well may permanently damage the environment. The retreating Iraqis setting fire to the Kuwaiti oil wells might be another example of temporary "scorched earth" damage. StuRat 00:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the British colonists' removal of enormous areas of native vegetation in Australia has had a permanent and massive effect on our environment. JackofOz 01:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Old Norse dialects--Old Swedish vs Old Danish

I'm working on a novel that is slightly based off of "Beowulf." My question is: would Beowulf, who was from what is now Sweden, be able to speak without a problem to Hrothgar, a Dane? I know nowadays that very often a Swede will speak in Swedish to a Dane and a Dane will understand and be able to respond in Danish, but I'm unsure if there was any actual difference in languages then, or if there were two seperate dialects.

Thanks for all help.

Kit

Yes, they would all have spoken essentially the same language, now called Proto-Norse. Even today the Scandinavian languages are to a large degree mutually intelligible – although Danes find it considerably easier to understand Swedes than the other way around. (According to our article on Scandinavian languages, Danes understand approximately 45% of spoken Swedish, but the Swedes can only grasp about 25% of what the Danes are saying.) In the 6th century, these languages had not yet differentiated.  --Lambiam^Talk 18:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

spelling the word palatte

How do I correctly spell the word palatte, referring to one's sense of taste?

Palate. --LarryMac | Talk 19:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Although it occurs to me that's not quite what you mean. Can you elaborate? --LarryMac | Talk 19:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The OED gives this word a secondary meaning of "Popularly considered as the seat of taste; hence transf. the sense of taste", which is not included in the Wikipedia article. Interesting that it should have acquired this meaning, since we do not taste with our palate.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

According to our article Taste, receptor cells for taste in humans are also found along the soft palate.  --Lambiam^Talk 20:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

May 19

Learning a second language online.

Aside from Esperanto and Frisian, which languages would be easiest to learn for an English-speaker who doesn't have access to a native speaker for coaching? Down M. 01:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)