Talk:Danite

Avard's testimony

Information about the Danites that came out at Avard's court appearance must be a matter of public record. Characteristically, we hear that "Some have argued Avard's testimony was oportunist and his testimony was false" but we don't hear what Avard testified. To the cautious reader, this says as much about the Mormons as anything else in this extremely cautious article. Wetman 09:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Good call, I'll add in the information - however, there's not a lot there. -Visorstuff 17:33, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Excerpt from History of the Church

BoNoMoJo, I think that Smith's condemnation is integral to a NPOV article, but now the article is a lengthy excerpt of Smith himself writting. I think that only the most powerful statements should be quoted from the history, probably, "When a knowledge of Avard's rascality came to the Presidency of the Church, he was cut off from the Church, and every means proper used to destroy his influence, at which he was highly incensed and went about whispering his evil insinuations, but finding every effort unavailing, he again turned conspirator, and sought to make friends with the mob."

A lot of the rest can be dealt with in a quick paraphrase. "Joseph Smith condemned Avard in the official History of the Church, and claims the ill-concieved group disappeared almost as soon as it came into being, ect, ect." This is especially sensible because much of the material in the passage doesn't relate to Smith's condemnation. The first few paragraphs instead give background speculations of why Avard might have had this dangerous idea, something that can be elaborated on without quoting Smith. CHL 02:56, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I just haven't put time to it yet. Have at it if you'd like. —B|Talk 13:27, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Although Orson Hyde signed the affidavit regarding the Danites on October 24, 1848 after becoming disaffected from the church, by June 27, 1849 he had repudiated the affidavit and rejoined the church.

Expanding

As part of my general upgrade to Mormon War and related articles, I'm going to be expanding this article. I've attended a panel discussion between the leading scholars on Danites --- Bill Hartley, Steven LeSueur, Alex Baugh and D. Michael Quinn --- I'm going to outline points of agreement and dispute among them. Give me a sec, while I'm working on this. Thanks. --John Hamer 16:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, that was a bunch of work. --John Hamer 02:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Poor Changes

I'm sorry to return to see a mass of biased changes to this article. The tone of the apologetic changes is set with the reference: "(For more information and discussion on the Danites (and comparison of the different historical accounts' integrity), see Jeff Lindsay's analysis." Jeff Lindsay is not a historian; he is an amateur apologist whose work is extremely biased.

I can list the rest of the errors at length, but overall, I'd propose that we revert this article to its Sept. 2005 state. --John Hamer 03:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The article is full of POV. A revert or major revision is definitely in order. Mapache 02:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What is a Dissenter?

Several Wikipedia articles mention Mormon dissenters, but never explain the term. The result must be that the reader misses much of the meaning of the conflicts Mormons had.

Mormons consider any criticism of their religion to be persecution. Pointing out faults in Mormonism is, to them, morally the same thing as torturing innocent people. And, so, a dissenter to them is one of the vilest persons, worthy of whatever action necessary to rid the community of him, whereas, to a normal person, a dissenter could be anyone who has a difference of opinion. So, when a normal person reads that the Mormons kicked out dissenters, it is easy to malign the dissenters by claiming that they were threatening the lives of the Mormons, when, in reality, all they were doing was calling Joseph Smith's bluff. Pooua 07:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO ABOVE:

I find it appalling that someone could make such general statements that in no way apply to the whole of a group. "Mormons consider any criticism of their religion to be persecution. Pointing out faults in Mormonism is, to them, morally the same thing as torturing innocent people. And, so, a dissenter to them is one of the vilest persons, worthy of whatever action necessary to rid the community of him".....where did you get that one from? I'm Mormon and never think when I read about faults in my religion that that person who wrote it is "evil." Never in all my life has my religion ever taught that it is appropriate or acceptable to rid the community of anyone just because they state their opinion or really for any reason. I think it’s just silly to make such biased conclusions. It is true however that some dissenters where treated badly...I believe that then and now the people weren't perfect. There are still Mormons who are good and bad people...you have to strive to live the doctrine which entails being good, truthful, honest, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.227.139.19 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could explain specifically what menace Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman E. Johnson posed to the Mormons? Why were these men run out of Mormon-controlled territory?

You also deleted my paragraph on the mob, without any explanation or notice that you did so, and you made significant changes as an anonymous poster. These two acts on your part cast doubt on how open-minded you truly are.

In answer to your question, where I get my ideas about Mormon censorship, I get them from the historical record, my own personal experience with Mormons, and the experiences of many other people who have described their interactions with Mormons. But, don't worry; I will make certain that whatever statements I make in the article have citations to back them up. Pooua 05:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

In answer to your question about "what menace Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman E. Johnson posed to the Mormons." Lets start with Lyman Johnson - threatened to kill Smith. Was involved in the tar and feathering of Sidney Rigdon. Phelps: His testimony combined with Thomas Marsh's led to the extermination order. In fact, he said he would be willing to kill smith if he had the chance. There is a beautiful story about Smith forgiving him during the nauvoo timeperiod for this - you should read the leter here. Shall I go on to the others threats?

You are right. Mormon history is open to all to read. It is not hidden. I find it strange that folks think it is censored, though. Those who make those claims do so out of ignorance. Anyone can walk into the church archives and do research on any topic. Its all there. The censorship you speak of must be correlation - using official doctrines instead of opinions. making sure that the history taught can be corraberated from multiple sources rather than just one journal entry. Church history is anything but censored. And of course in sunday school you'll be told faith-promoting experiences rather than faith-demoting ones or mysteries. How often do you talk about the talking donkey in numbers or that God told the israelites to kill all the amorites. Or how about your own church history? That the southern baptists split from the northern baptists over ministers in the south wanting slaves, not wanting to educate blacks and the doctrine of the curse of cain, and that there were different heavens for blacks and whites (talk about a censored history - they voted to allow desegregated congregations in the same decade that mormon ordained blacks to the priesthood, but officially call Mormons racist)? What about the inquisition? The presbyterian racial views on blacks? The methodist organized crime rings? The mob activity and forced conversions of early Assemblies of God and Church of Christ? Do you study this in your church? I don't in mine either. I have to look at journals and other books for those, just as I do in my own faith. Every organization has people who are imperfect, and Mormonism claims stronger than other groups that its people are not perfect - we need the savior to save us from our sins. At least thats the Mormonism I know and that Joseph Smith taught. -Visorstuff 01:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What is "the mob"?

Likewise, early Mormons often talked about mobs, and the need to fight the mobs. But, what is this mob, and what did they do that required physical violence against them. Mormon apologists would like the public to believe that the mobs were inherently, physically violent, when, in reality, the mob was simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way. The Mormon leadership would not tolerate any kind of criticism; the penalty for it was as much violence as required to silence the opponent, even if it meant death. Many people in Missouri, Illinois and Utah fell victim to this principle, "put under the sod" for criticizing Mormonism. Again, Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force. In their minds, critics endanger the souls of the Mormons. Consider how differently this understanding changes the meaning of Rigdon's 4th of July Oration, in which he states, "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination." He means, anyone who says anything critical of Mormonism or challenges its doctrines or its leaders is going to be attacked physically. Pooua 08:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to disagree with most your characterizations. Ochlocracy was a mainstay of the American fronter experience, which included Missouri during this time period. Mobbing actions taken by (mostly Southern) early Missouri settlers on those they perceived as dangerous outsiders (mostly Northern/New England &/or new immigrants) are a matter of historical record. Their reaction to the Mormon settlers is certainly not unique -- Bleeding Kansas is another example of Missourian-style methods of settling disputes. These are but two examples of why the term "Missouri ruffian" is so readily found in accounts from and about that era.

With the polarization that occurred between the origional settlers and the Mormons in Missouri, it is hardly surprising that those that became disaffected (for what ever reason) with one group moved into the camp of the other group. This was not so much a matter of a clash of religions doctrines, criticism of beliefs, or perceived disloyalty to leadership. The issues were primarily: (1) economic - the Mormons tended to trade primarily within their own community, and through their cooperative efforts became comparatively much better off than the earlier settlers in a short amount of time; (2) political - Mormons tended to vote in reliable blocks, and as their numbers increased they were becoming more influential in local and state politics (this is one reason why the Gallatin election day battle had such as strong impact, as Mormons saw their being blocked from voting as political oppression, and those that were stopping them saw the Mormons resistance as proof of their suspicions that the Mormons wanted to "take over"); (3) cultural - while not necessarily outright abolitionists, the Mormons generally came from non-slave holding regions of the the US (and the world) and could not be considered supporters of that institution, which, along with their religion branded them as "other"; (4) social - the Missouri Compromise was still a fairly recent event, and the possibility that a large block of voters in Missouri might be ambivalent or even hostle to practice of slavery was not considered tolerable (two examples of intolerance of any abolitionist ideas by Missourians neatly bookend the Mormon War in the form the 1820 Missouri state constitution requirements to exclude "free negroes and mulattoes" from the state, as well as the Missourian involvement in the Kansas disputes).

You are correct that Mormons in Missouri did get caught up in the "us v. them" mentality of the day (although based on the the historical record, to a lesser degree than those that opposed them), but taking the Danites, the Mormon War, and the Extermination order out of the broader historical context does very little to help anyone understand what really happened. Characterizing "the mob" as just be a bunch of good ol' boys that didn't much take to Mormonism and the Mormons as a dangerous group that couldn't tolerate dissent is about as even-handed as characterizing the KKK's reaction to the Civil Rights movement in the 60's as just trying to put a bunch of uppity blacks back in there place. -- 12.106.111.10 01:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't characterize the Missourians as saints, by any means. It should seem odd, though, that the Mormons were hounded by angry crowds in New York, Ohio, Missouri, Illinois and further ran into conflicts with the U.S. government even in Utah. Obviously, you would be wrong to claim that Mormon conflicts were nothing more than clashes with intolerant Missourian bigots. It is much more reasonable to look for what it was about the Mormons that alarmed such a wide variety of people, and why we don't see this clash today. When you answer those questions, you will realize that Mormonism has undergone radical changes over the last 170 years, or else it could not be tolerated in our society even today. Therefore, the editors who write this article as if the Missouri Mormon War was a fluke, or the Danites were rogue agents, or the Mormons were peaceful, harmless people who were martyrs to their cause, are wrong-headed and misleading--particularly when Brigham Young himself claimed that the Danites were still active in Utah in the business of killing Mormon enemies. Pooua 07:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm really not sure the point of all of this dialogue - it is not neccessarily there to help improve the article - however as you brought it up, i'll address it and then move on. The various groups called "danites" are much more complicated than you think, and should not be confused with destroying angels, blood atonement, or the utah war. These are completely seperate topics. Now on to missouri. Talking about fighting or defending one's family from "the mob" was not unique to Mormons in missouri. And Mormons were not the only group fought by Missourian mobs between 1830-1880. I do find it disturbing that the Missourians of the time tended to be much more individually violent to "innocents" in their mob activity than the other groups. Public rapings, tar and featherings were not done by the other groups, but both sides burned homes, fields and fued-like militia skirmishes that took place group against group in open invitation.

Mormons were hounded by angry crowds in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois for seeminly quite different reasons. New York because some locals thought smith still had gold, public gatherings and the book of mormon. Pennslyvania because of "treasure-seeking" and blasphemy that the pious state didn't like including having a prophet and his saying he saw jesus. Ohio becuase of the kirtland safety society and united order title disputes, Missouri because of the mormon voting bloc (over issues such as slavery, militia organization, adultry being legally enforced - and other northern sentiments), vast land acquisistions, the zion concept and of course retaliation against group violence. Illinios because of polygamy, the nauvoo charter and smith's growing political power. Other religious groups were forced out of various places - look at who took over the city of Nauvoo after the Mormons left? A utopian group who had to resettle. They were forced to their situation as well. Look at how Texas, Pennsylvania, New England and New York were settled. Groups who were forced from their homes multiple times. i'm not saying Mormons were or were not innocent, what i am saying is that your seemingly complaints of the article are based on you imposing your current world view on the time, rather than letting the time speak for itself.

I'm suprised at your lack of reading of primary sources available on Mormon history and your lack of understanding of what really took place. Was some of the issue mormon's faults? Of course. But "Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force." I have a list of over 200 Mormons who were killed or died due to Mob violence in Missouri. To them it wasn't "verbal criticism," it was more. It was being strapped to a bench and raped by ten men until death. It was being dragged across ice until the head was split open. It was being tied up and dropped into a river until they drowned. It was being shot while trying to escape a burning home. It was dying from exposure after a home was burned, or of starvation because you were kidnapped away from your mother's breast and left to die in the wood. It was being shot while defending your mill. it was being shot at point blank range so that the nit wouldn't grow to become lice. I'm not excusing what the mormons did, I just find your conclusions very ignorant of Missiouri and Mormon history very ignorant and surface. Ochlocracy was part of living west of the Appalachians.

The mob was much more than "simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way." Nor today do most members of the church feel that criticism and Anti-Mormon activism are the same thing. Someone who disagrees with me on a doctrinal matter is someone who disagrees. Someone who criticized because of same-sex marriage or some other policy of the church is someone who criticizes. Someone who says we've "changed history" is someone who hasn't read multiple primary sources. Someone who thinks the godmakers is slightly factual is someone who is misguided and completely uninformed. Yet they are still not Anti-Mormon. Someone who burns temple garments or yells at Mormons and tells them they are going to hell because they read the book of Mormmon is someone who I consider anti-Mormon.

Also, curious if you have a source for Young claiming that Danites were killing mormon enemies? The only Brigham quote I have on the Danites is as follows (interestingly talking about the violence that still took place in Missouri even after the Mormons left):

Do you ever reflect upon the matter? Look at St. Louis. More murders have been committed there in almost any few days than have been committed in this Territory since it was organized. It is customary there to have murders committed almost daily; but we, above all other people, ought never to have such a crime committed in our midst; and we never have had, so far as the Latter-day Saints are concerned. I will now tell you something. It is a secret; and I wish you to keep it to yourselves. There have been men here who have had their plans arranged for robbing; and I will take the liberty to say that, when we find them, "judgment will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet." Those are my feelings, and I express them plainly, that the good and honest may be able to pass from the Eastern States to California, and back and forth, in peace. And when a "Mormon" unlawfully disturbs anybody, I say, let him be overtaken by a "Vigilance Committee." And when mobocrats come here, they will find a "Vigilance Committee." Now, listeners, send that to the States, if you wish. I want the people in the States to know that there are a few poor curses here, and also to know that we do not want a gang of highwaymen here. And I say to all such characters, if you come here and practice your iniquity, we will send you home quick, whenever we can catch and convict you. I wish such characters would let the boys have a chance to lay their hands on them. If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the Danites, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses' heels, but the scoundrels will find something biting their heels.

"Catch and convict"-ing highwaymen is much different than "Danites were still active in Utah in the business of killing Mormon enemies." remember, the law enforcement in Utah, was under the direction of Hosea Stout - who was a celebrated Danite from the Missouri period. Most police in Utah were called Danites as a result by the people here for many years - not becase they were violent, but because they were led by Marshall/Sherrif Stout. I'd wager that the term Nauvoo Legion caused more fear among Mormon in Utah than the term Danite in the 1850-70s. After all, the Nauvoo Legion "Sleepeth but never dies."

You also say "It is much more reasonable to look for what it was about the Mormons that alarmed such a wide variety of people, and why we don't see this clash today. When you answer those questions, you will realize that Mormonism has undergone radical changes over the last 170 years, or else it could not be tolerated in our society even today."

Let's see what changes we've made. No big groups practice the united order, and...we don't do polygamy. And the Church government and territorial government are now seperate. What is the point? When you look at how many people refused assistance during the Katrina disaster from the LDS church becuase they were "racist mormons" you wonder if it really is "tolerated" as much as it should be. or when an average of three missionaries are killed each year around the world because of being missionaries. Mormons may have softened their speech, but the church is not that "radically" different from the 1840s.

Let's get back to the article at hand and if you have sources, not just opinions, add in more detail. If not, the discussion doesn't move the article forward. -Visorstuff 01:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)