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/Archive 1


A note to all editors: insomnia

Today I corrected a couple of erroneous references to insomnia from the article. Please editors, note that DSPS is not a type or form of insomnia, which is an inability to sleep regularly or at all. Insomnia can be caused by DSPS, for instance when the sufferer denies his or her circadian rhythm by trying to adapt to socially accepted timeframes. Being afflicted with DSPS is not the same as suffering from DSPS - it is theoretically possible for someone with DSPS to lead an almost normal life with regular periods of sleep entirely without 'suffering'. 212.178.112.106 22:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


FYI--Technically, according to clincal standards, if you are able to lead a good life with no complaints of a delayed phase, you don't have the delayed sleep phase SYNDROME. The complaint is critical in diagnosing DSPS. ----

Removal of section

I took out the section on combination treatments as it wasn't sourced, and it read like a list of "treatments" for finding it tough to get out of bed. "drinking two full glasses of water" will only wake a DSPS sufferer in the middle of their "night", it won't change their circadian rhythm. The rest are equally poor, especially the downright hazardous "take double doses of sedatives". Darkaddress 18:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good call. Kla'quot 02:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

General Discussion on DSPS

So since this is the discussion session I have a question to all you people with DSPS: How do you all cope with friends, family, work, etc with this condition? I have been chaistised by all of these individuals saying that I need to 'train my body to go to sleep' or 'you need to do better' and have given me nothing but further frustration and angst.

Like many people with this I have tried so many things and they have all failed miserably. If it were up to me though I'd go to sleep around 3-4 AM and get up around 10-Noon but in the working world that cannot happen. When I am at school I can just adjust my classes for the semester to a time that suits me and doesn't interfere with performance. I have also suffered from depression in the past and still have some of that combined with anxiety. Comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.162.5.12 (talk • contribs) July 19 2006.

Hi there. I and a few million other people have lots of empathy for you. For your family, friends, and work, send them to this Wikipedia article and maybe it will enlighten them. DSPS is a tough disorder to treat and really tough to live with too. As for jobs, some require early mornings and some don't. May I recommend the Niteowl support group ? There are few easy answers, but at least you'll know you're in good company. Best wishes, Su-Laine Su-Laine Yeo 06:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm fortunate in that I've managed to fairly successfully adapt. For one thing, I have a career that's very friendly to this sort of thing: I weave. I have a big weaving loom in my house, my boss gives me bags full of yarn and my orders, and I turn finished throws in at the end of the week. Since I work at home and I can basically put the hours in whenever I want so long is everything is done by the due date, it's easy to just work when I happen to be awake. Of course, I do face unrelated drawbacks; the hours (though flexible) are long and the pay is low. As for friends and such, I practically live online (working at home and not having a car tends to limit one's real-life social interactions) so I just make friends on IM with people in exotic time zones. 68.35.129.180 07:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not too much luck here. I find it hard to sleep before 7AM. I might also have a touch of non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, as this time often increases, but I can usually regulate sleep around 7AMish. I don't have too much trouble with my friends. My family thinks I'm lazy. Work -- is a nightmare. I'm currently in the process of getting a new job... the only problem is that the only jobs I've been able to find also start at 8AM. I recently worked an 11hr shift on one hour of sleep and only had one five min break during the whole thing. It sucked. I used to have quite a bit of luck with marijuana but I can't use that now because it impairs my memory too much for the job I'm working at... meh. --Animus9 11:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to thank the editors here for a breakthrough moment for me upon reading the article. I've had the same 3am-11ish sleep pattern for the last 23 years, with occasional episodes of N2HSS, and only lately have found a line of work compatible with that pattern. I'm a music composer for tv shows and films, so I work on deadlines. I'm very excited to learn more about this, and get started on a treatment plan, because it would be nice to not have to always schedule meetings in the afternoon. Cheers! Davwood 22:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just had a similar "breakthrough moment", in reading this article. If I'm left to my own devices, I'll sleep a similar 3am to 11am cycle. I can't tell you how much that impacts on the rest of my life. I've ended up doing a less than challenging job because I can do it from home and get up when I'm ready. I've had trouble developing a relationship with partners because they're ready for bed at 9pm and I'm just starting to get to my creative "thinking" stage of my day. I've been called lazy, and a sleepyhead, because I don't operate very well before 11am, even though I get less sleep than everyone else, and I know myself that I'm not lazy. It makes such a difference to be able to put a scientific basis to this, instead of just calling myself a "night owl". Cheers x2 ! Wampusaust 06:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Drugs, both permitted and not by law haven't helped. They work for a few days or weeks, but I just get used to them and fall into my regular early morning-afternoon schedule, and my thought processes end up hampered (as well as my dexterities). Jobs at 9am have just resulted in either insomnia or oversleeping. I still need a full night's sleep, but I can't get it until I've been awake for 18-20 hours, which leaves me at a deficit every night. I can't believe there's a drug company (the name of which I can't remember) promoting a sleep-aid that is non-habit forming. That's BS. If it knocks me out, I'll take it, and chances are I'll have a habit for it before it stops working. (Warrenreport 10:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Hee hee. I think I have this condition. I haven't been feeling tired until 2 AM since I was taking my GCSEs. Now I'm 20, doing Creative Writing at university and I hack it fine. I don't WANT it cured!!! [/soapbox] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lady BlahDeBlah (talk • contribs) 23:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Social vs. medical

I deleted, "Some sufferers deny the existence of any problem and refuse to accept that they may not be suited for a 9–5 lifestyle." From what I've seen, lack of awareness is very common, but most sufferers who learn that DSPS exists immediately acknowledge that they have it.

Kla'quot 09:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a strong social aspect involved. Sufferers who can manage combining the odd sleeping and waking hours and some kind of a social / work life would maintain that the problem is with social acceptance rather than their perception of the condition as a disorder that needs to be cured, whereas (many) other sufferers try to adapt. 212.178.112.106 00:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Acupuncture

Re: this edit: [1]

Should acupuncture should be listed under Treatments?: I completely agree that complementary and alternative medicine techniques such as acupuncture should be included on this page if there is a reasonable amount of anecdotal evidence to support their use. Many Wikipedia articles do this, such as Asthma which is a featured article.

However, after doing some digging around with the links provided in the current version of the article, I can only find references to acupuncture for insomnia, not for circadian rhythm sleep disorders. Insomnia is a symptom of DSPS, but treatments for DSPS are very different from treatments for insomnia. Can you give any references or links that discuss acupuncture as a treatment for DSPS? If not, I think it would be better to move the references you mention to the Insomnia article. Su-laine.yeo 02:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing the acupuncture section and reference from the article and copying it below. If anyone can provide any good reference ([2])to support using acupuncture for DSPS, I'll be in favor of mentioning it.

Google Scholar Search for 'acupuncture' and 'sleep'

Kla'quot 04:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the sentence, "Acupuncture works for at least one person." As there is no further explanation or reference, I would guess that the person who wrote it knows someone for whom acupuncture works. Please let me emphasize (again) that I have nothing against acupuncture and that I strongly wish there was more investigation into treatments for DSPS. However, including a "this works for me" kind of statement is simply not allowed on Wikipedia, according to Wikipedia:No original research. If you have a novel treatment of DSPS that you think is effective, I encourage you to try to persuade a journalist or medical researcher to write about it. Wikipedia can then quote that journalist or researcher. Kla'quot 03:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cannabis

I deleted this: "however many who suffer from it regularly use cannabis immediately before bed, which they say allows them to easily fall asleep, not forcing it like most medications." Some quick Google searching brought up this article: [3] which indicates that marijuana may or may not be useful for insomnia. However, as with acupuncture, I can't find anything that says cannabis has an effect on circadian rhythm sleep disorders. If a reference can be found linking cannabis to treatment of DSPS, I have no problem with mentioning it. Kla'quot 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am the user who added that line before it was deleted. I have no problem with it being on the discussion page for a little while, however I would like some others to comment on it, and if no one does, I wouldn't mind if it showed back up in the main article. I am afflicted with DSPS, I have been for years, an personally have used cannabis to remedy it, which has worked wonders and has been the only truly effective treatment that I have tried, amongst many. The difference is that instead of knocking you out, marijuana allows you to relax more readily and allows for natural sleep, at least for myself. This is not only personal information, and I actually learned of the technique from a friend who had the same problem, and solved it the same way. His had discussed his ongoing insomnia with his physician, identified it as DSPS, and over time found that a little marijuana before bed (not getting high and hanging out, but a small smoke then directly into bed) would do wonders for the problem, to which his physician not only approved but encouraged do to its effectiveness. I since then have become aware or numerous others who have used it in similar ways- now keep in mind that this is not a cure-all and I'm not one of those guys who believes marijuana is the fix for everything, and a modern day manna, however it haves proven to myself and many others to be a viable alternative to medication for this particular dissorder. Please enter any further discussion here.

I think this would count as original research and therefore would not meet Wikipedia standards. JHP 19:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although I've never used cannabis I've heard many people vouch for its efficiency especially the strong indica variety and I think it deserves an official mention on the main page especially as it is medically available in Canada and some European countries.

Here is an article mentioning its ability to boost melatonin levels, http://web.archive.org/web/20010405064348/www.cures-not-wars.org/melajuana.html#graph

I think the general consensus is to only use a little bit before going to sleep not enough to get 'high' but I'll have to have a look around for more info from more reputable sources. if nobody objects I'll add something..

Dkin 19:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Niteowl mailing list

Here are some reasons I think the Niteowl mailing list is worth mentioning in the article:

  • Articles should cover all aspects of a topic. Peer support an important aspect of many chronic medical conditions, including this one. I'd like the article to discuss peer support more extensively. For now, Niteowl is the only peer support group I know of.
  • It's a link to a non-commercial site for a non-profit community group. It's not spam.
  • Niteowl has been around for over a decade. That should count for something.

If you have reasons it's not worth mentioning, please let's discuss. Cheers! Kla'quot 05:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but I still think it would be much better to list it under "External Links". —ptk✰fgs 05:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with that. I've moved it to External Links. If we do cover peer support more extensively in future then maybe it will fit into that discussion. Kla'quot 05:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good deal. —ptk✰fgs 05:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Evolutionary History

Can someone please provide reliable sources for the Evolutionary History section? Perhaps it should be reworded to discuss morningness-eveningness instead? Note that ASPS is extremely rare. Kla'quot 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've deleted this for now Kla'quot 07:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC) : There is a theory that in an evolutionary context, people with DSPS were the ones who could look after the tribe at night and stand guard against predators or invaders.[citation needed] A small percentage of the tribe who had with DSPS could help the survival rate of the tribe or clan, and hence this behavior would be beneficial to propagation and be selected for. The ones with DSPS would no doubt have their shift taken over by the ones with ASPS (advanced sleep phase syndrome).[citation needed] See also: Evolutionary Psychology[reply]

What a load of BS

So if I go sleep at 4:00 and wake up at 12:00 I have a "disorder" and I need "treatment" ? Wouldn't it be far more effective and simple if I simply moved to another time zone? Cuzandor 18:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really work. A delayed sleep phase appears to be caused by a time offset in the brain's production of melatonin in response to environmental cues from exposure to sunlight. In another time zone, the sun rises and sets at a different time and the sleep phase would shift accordingly.
Also, the reason people generally seek treatment for DSPS is because life in industrialized societies enforces rather strict scheduling requirements. The primary complaint is usually not the sleep schedule itself, but of its interference with work, school, etc. For a lot of people it is much easier to change one's own schedule than it is to persuade others to adjust.
Is there a change you are proposing to the article here, or did you just want to stop by to issue some invective toward circadian rhythm sleep disorder research? —ptk✰fgs 21:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well I agree with you to some extent about the use of the word 'disorder'. It's probably more accurate to call it a less common state, but I suppose it really depends on your perspective. --Animus9 11:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A "disorder" label is always controversial. It assumes that the given state is "wrong" and needs to be "fixed." It's a debate that could go on forever, for nearly every "disorder" you can think of. However, that does not invalidate the underlying condition. The fact is that there are people whose bodies do not run on the same light/dark cycles as most. I am one of them, and I can assure you it is not an easy condition to live with. The revelation that my trouble maintaining the schedule expected of me was a consequence of my biology and not some kind of moral failing under my own control was profound. Now, whether I ought to adapt to fit society or whether society ought to adapt to fit me is a hard question. But there is no doubt in my mind that some kind of adaptation must happen, because my body and my obligations are not compatible. Personally, if I can find a pill that will help me sleep and wake on the kind of schedule my job expects and my friends share, I will jump at it. There may be long-term negative consequences, but I can't imagine they are worse than the long-term consequences of chronic sleep deprivation and the anxiety and distress my condition has caused me. As a side note, moving west a time zone or two always helps for a couple of days, but my body always readjusts. Going east again is simply painful. Lamanteuse 08:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recognition in the Medical Community

Research into DSPS, and its opposite, ASPS, is only a couple of decades old and by no means conclusive. Many doctors reject its status as "incurable", while others see it as "shifted phase", i.e. that a normal pattern exists but has been suppressed. These beliefs are highly contentious, especially among sufferers.


As I mentioned earlier, this paragraph sounds alarming but I don't understand what it's saying. Can anyone clarify what this paragraph means? Kla'quot 08:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It means that there is division in the medical community over whether or not DSPS can be "cured" as such -- a percentage of doctors see DSPS as little more than shifted phase (think persistent jetlag) and do not acknowledge the possibility of a permanently shifted schedule. I can't provide cites right now.Darkaddress 19:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is no B.S. as I see some may put it. I made myself wake up as 9 this morning and although i am sleepy i can not go to sleep, even though it is 2:30 in the morning. I do hope that u post some cites soon though, because this 'disorder' is keeping me from moveing on to bigger and better things. 2:39, 11 December 2006

DSPS and Depression

I suffer from DSPS myself (though I didn't know it was called that), and have a suggestion for the depression section. I have suffered from depression in the past, so I do know what it's like. When I first came to my doctor about my DSPS he wrote it off as depression, against my objections, and medicated me thusly for 3 months until I convinced him that it wasn't a problem with depression. How much could this 50% link between depression and DSPS be people like me, who were misdiagnosed as depressed simply because DSPS shares some symptoms with depression? Is there a place for stating something like this in the article without it being original research? And for those that suffer with me, my doctor has me on Modafinil. It's not the best solution (don't want to be medicated forever), but it's working for me rather well. Only problem is I have to wake up 2 hours early to take my dosage so that it will wake me up on time. Adam Weeden 14:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a place for stating something like this in the article without it being original research?
Nope, not unless you have a citation to a reliable source. —ptk✰fgs 20:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are many reliable sources on this. I've been meaning to expand this section for a long time. I'll try to expand it soon. Kla'quot 20:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Teenage sleeping patterns

Isn't this similar to what's considered normal teenage sleeping behaviour? Njál 01:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is normal teenage behaviour? More to the point, what is a normal teenager? --MushroomCloud 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it has to do with military intelligence. Adam Weeden 03:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Giggle ;) Kla'quot 21:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's a spectrum. The article should mention that most teenagers, at least in the West, don't get enough sleep, and teenagers do tend to sleep at late times. But most teenagers (93% if you believe the statistics) have these tendencies to a mild enough degree that it isn't a major health problem. Kla'quot 21:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While Western teenagers may not get enough sleep, this is probably more of a concious decision (staying up to party/study/whatever) and really early wake-up times due to early school hours and/or increasing distance to school. --MushroomCloud 22:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the important difference is that DSPS tends to begin early in life, and persists beyond adolescence. I have had DSPS since I was a very young child. It became worse when I was a teenager, mostly through a combination of need to wake up much earlier for high school, and having more bad habits about my sleep, but it has always been a similar tendency, and I have had more trouble controlling it than my peers. Most people I know, for instance, stay up late more or less by choice, and if they go to bed at an unusually early time, they fall asleep at an unusually early time. This is not something I have ever been able to do. Going to bed earlier simply means spending more time staring at my ceiling. The question of whether or not "normal" sleeping patterns for teenagers conflict with the social expectations for their behavior is a separate one from whether or not there is a percentage of people who have significantly more trouble following a typical diurnal pattern than most. Lamanteuse 08:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cold showers

I just removed this as I suspect it's a hoax: "Local remedies and treatments for DSPS have been largely fabricated and often suffer from negative public sentiment that DSPS victims are self diagnosing with hypochondriac tendencies. One of the most successful treatments for DSPS remains the Schniedorf Shower method pioneered in Germany during the late 1980s. The Schniedorf method takes advantage of physiological triggers in circadian rhythms by use of irregularly frequented cold showers during normal sleeping hours. Taking between 1 and 3 ice-cold showers between the hours of midnight and 4 AM for a period of one week can reduce DSPS symptoms by up to 37% in males and 42% in females." Does anyone have a source for this? Kla'quot 06:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A researcher by the name of J.G. Schnedorf produced a study in 1938 on something called the "hypnotoxin theory of sleep", but his studies had something to do with injecting something into dogs... nothing about showers. That's the closest I can find. We would certainly need a citation for the paragraph you removed. —ptk✰fgs 06:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

possible cure?

can't a person suffering from this simply pull an all nighter and try to stay awake the next day and go to sleep at like 8:00 PM and they're back to a normal schedule? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.59.5.156 (talk) 15:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, of course we've all thought of that. That's about the first thing we try, and it always remains as a last resort. For one, you feel like the walking dead all day and make stupid mistakes. Second, you build up a major sleep deficit that only serves to disrupt the circadian rhythm even more. Lastly, that pretty much only works for two or three days and then you're right back where you were. For some folks this even catalyzes a decline into non-24-hour circadian rhythm disorder. The nature of DSPS is that it's a chronically shifted sleep phase. It's not like just resetting a clock -- it's more like trying to keep an umbrella up in the wind. —ptk✰fgs 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about other sufferers, but I have found from personal experience that a lack of sleep during one sleep cycle will cause me to be sleepy when I wake up, sleepy through the day, and wide awake after about 8pm the following night. Wampusaust 06:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Same here, like right now. Last night I couldn't force myself to sleep. It was 4:50 when I went to sleep, despite the fact that I had to go to work at 9:00. So I slept only slightly less than 4 hours. I was exhausted at work. I nearly fell asleep during calls (I work on the phone, in a callcenter). Now it's 01:00 the following morning and I'm fully awake and don't feel any urge to sleep. Earlier, around 22:00, I felt a little tired, but now I'm completely awake again. Listening to happy music and feeling happy as a fish. Knowing that I'll be facing another day at work feeling like *censure*. --Rabbeinu 21:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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