Talk:Creampie (sexual act)

Stupid Dessert

Okay, funnnnaaay a picture of a pie. A nasty pie at that, that's like eating hoola burgers or something. enough with the censorship, you're on the fucking interweb, make it clickity if you have to but damn, your arguments are fucking retarded, I suspect some innocent person typing in creampie would be more likely to find teh pr0n images of their search directly from their search engine, well before they ever hit wiki.

---

Details about faking a cream-pie and Cytherea's yeast infection were mentioned on an article on the KSex website [1] .

regular sex

in regular sex (=outside porn business) creampieing is the usual act compared to facialing. --Abdull 21:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobody want to mention a recent 2006 article by Cosmopolitan magazine which showed that many men often lie awake at night wondering how many times their wife or girlfreind had recieved a creampie by another man? It was in US cosmo I think - no idea where to find a source, I read it on an aeroplane.

redirect

I have redirected the page to cream pie. Wikipedia is not a porn slang dictionary. There is an article somewhere on idioms of the porn movie industry, where the prior content could perhaps be merged, if someone is interested. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 02:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Impregnation

How can so many porn actresses have been creampied but not one has fallen pregnant? Do they use diaphragms or some other contraceptive device?

hahahahaha you can't be serious 64.228.137.3 23:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry...But I don't know much about this. lol....But I was wondering, I mean....How could they do it so often and not be pregnant.

Dude there are many ways to avoid pregnancy withiut a condom. check out Oral contraceptive. El Oso 07:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Christ dude, why not just look at the article on contraception. Maybe they wait until just after their period, or maybe they take the pill, or maybe the morning after pill. Or probably all three. I mean, how long do you think sperm can live inside a woman for? A whole month?

Sperm can survive for a few days. Mathmo ^Talk 05:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

HIV

No proven cases of HIV and anal creampie? WTF?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.26.146.129 (talk • contribs) 06:07, 2006 April 25 (UTC)

I removed that section - it was completely unsourced speculation/original-research. Johntex\^talk 20:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Linkimage

Hello, I am hoping we can stop edit warring about whether to show a picture or not. I have replaced the original linkimaged picture which I think is a very reasonable compromise between the people who don't want to show a graphic sexual image and the people who want to provide an image for the reader. This way, no one sees the picture without deliberately taking action to do so, but at the same time, they don't have to leave Wikipedia to get the information - they just have to click an internal link. This compromise has worked well elsewhere on Wikipedia. Can we agree to this compromise and move on to improving the article? Thanks for your help, Johntex\^talk 23:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with showing the image in the first place, but I think you are right that if some people may be offended because they did not expect to see something graphic, that your compromise is effective and within the Wikipedia standards as I understand them. --Atom 13:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Antoher question is whether the link should be labeled "click here". Two people have been reverting each other on that point. One user says that they thought it was a missing image and they didn't know they had to click. The other says that not all users use a mouse and therefore the language is not applicable to all people.

I think both points of view have merit. On balance, I tend to think we should omit the "click here" wording. Wikipedia could someday be available in print form, or someone might print out the article. In either case the language would not apply. Also, throughout Wikipedia, blue links show that an article or image exists, while red shows that it does not. Therefore, I think the blue link is sufficient. Thoughts? Johntex\^talk 16:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the issue up at {{linkimage}}, but have received to response so far. In my opinion, if any sort of clarification of the link is to be made, it should be made in the original template, so that we can avoid this issue on other articles. That said, the best I've been able to come up with is either very, very ugly, or changing the description to the less than perfect "Hidden image of semen flowing from the vagina after a creampie." -- Ec5618 22:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Wikipedia does not endorse censorship and aims to provide an information resource without having to resort to image redirections or the like. If anyone searches for "creampie" the first thing they find is an article on the pastry; if they're curious as to the sexual act, clearly marked from that page, then they should see the whole of the article. If Wikipedia's article concerning sexual anatomy presents images of both the vagina and the phallus, and it does, then semen should also be represented as natural without obfuscation. Wikipedia isn't responsible for delicately stepping on some people's toes, we're here to present full information. Waelwulf 14:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Waelwulf in that if someone is looking to find information on a sexual act (again, referenced in the title of the article), then there shouldn't be any problem with being offended by a picture representing the concept being on the page. Wikipedia already features pictures of Vaginas and Semen, so this is just putting the two together in one picture, eh? --Columba livia 16:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If any more rational arguments are not presented with viable reasons as to why this change should not be reverted, this is blatant censorship and will be reverted 12AM GMT+1 tomorrow. I would like to point out that the linkimage tag was originally created to combat abusers of Wikipedia and not to placate people who might find the picture offensive. That is not Wikipedia's job. Waelwulf 16:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of why the linkimage is a good idea

Thanks Waelfulf, for the opportunity to further explain why this is a good idea. I'll start first with the idea of "censorship" in general, because using a linkimage is not censorship.

The standard definition of "censorship" is something imposed upon someone by some outside authoritative/authoritarian entity. If we decide for our own reasons not to include something in an article, that is not censorship. We have the freedom to choice to either include it or not. That goes for a fact, an image, a particular source, anything. We often hear people cry out against "censorship" whenever someone wants to delete a controversial article, or remove a controversial thing from an article, but the term is being misused in that debate.
When Wikipedians debate whether or not to include something, that is an internal debate. There is no authoritarian outside entity involved. Therefore, it doesn't fit the standard definition of "censorship".

Now, onto the question of whether Wikipedia is not censored. Wikipedia absolutely is censored, in the truest sense of the word. Wikipedia is censored by the Chinese government and other authoritatian regimes every day. We even have an article on Blocking of Wikipedia in mainland China. Therefore, any assertion that we are not censored is provably false, at least in a world-wide context.

OK, but what about in "Western" or "liberal" countries? The German Wikipedia has run afoul of German law before and content has had to be removed on more than one occasion. One of these cases dealt with holocaust-denial. I don't remember the details at the moment, but I can find them for you if need be.

What about self-censorship? All across the EU, there is no concept of "fair use". Therefore, images that are legal and included in the English Wikipedia are "censored" out of other language versions. We do so even though all those non-English language versions are hosted on US servers. In other words, use of fair use images would be just as legal on those other versions of the encyclopedia, yet we decide not to use them.

I'd now like to address "WP:not censored for the protection of minors" because it is often misconstrued to mean somehting that it does not mean at all. People seem to think it means that we have some sort of policy against taking out material that ould be harmful to minors. That is not the case. Going back to the usual definition of "censorship", it refers to action by a central authority. What WP:not is actually saying is that we don't have a central authority reviewing all work before it is posted. It is actually a disclaimer warning the reader that at any point in time any article may contain offensive language, pornographic material, etc. It is not doing anything to limit the decisions that we make as editors. It is just warning people that we may not have taken it out as of the moment they read the article.

Now onto the subject of pornographic images. There are several reasons why I think they should not be shown in articles in plain view:

1. Some of them are illegal in some jurisdictions, even for viewing by adults.
2. Many that are legally viewable by adults are not legal to show to minors.
3. Most serious reference works would not include such images and therefore, we run the risk of lowering our credibility by showing them.
4. Many people would be offended if they viewed this images accidentally. This would be easy to do. A child may here the word "ejaculation" at school and not fully understand what it means. A person learning English might have no clue what "Autofelatio" means. (In fact, a lot of native-English speakers probably don't know either.) Someone browsing Wikipedia at work may read an article on "Anytown, USA" and see a list of famous residents from that town, then they may click on "Ms. Unknown Actress" only to find out she is a porn star speciallize in Double Penetration. Keep in mind, it is eady to change how the wikilink appears. Therefore, the text you think you are following may have little to do with the actual name of the article.
   

In all these cases, the person coming to the article would probably appreciate the opportunity to read about the term first, without being confronted immediately with the image.

I think it should be self-evident that our goal is not just to make a comprehensive encyclopedia. Our goal is to make an encyclopedia that is useful and well-used. If we are shut down due to obscene content, if we have to spend excessive amounts of money on legal fees fighting about certain content, if we are dismissed in the public perception as "peddlers of pornography", if people can't trust following any link for fear of what they may find there, then we are not performing well our mission.

On the flip side, putting the image behind one link keeps the image available for the inquisitive reader. That reader is able to inform themselves about what the term means, consider the legal consequences of their viewing it, if any, and then they are able to take an informed action. There is little inconvenience to them since they only have to make one click to see the image.

In conclusion - Censorship is something that comes from the outside, which is not happening here. Putting the image behind a single click brings many benefits as listed above. The inconvenience to anyone who wants to see it is so slight as to be negligible. The linkimage compromise has worked well on other articles in the past. Therefore, it is my hope that it will be a good compromise for this article. Johntex\^talk 16:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Information should be offensive. China is obviously offended by some information contained in the Chinese Wikipedia because it potentially undermines their control of their population through propaganda and other means. Some Christians are obviously offended by Wikipedia's support of evolution as the most viable theory for the reason for human life.

Let's not forget that this article is clearly labelled as a sexual act and simple searching for it directs you to the article on the pastry first if using the "wp creampie" command through Firefox. If someone is interested in the sexual act, they would have to be severely hampered in their reasoning as to not assume that most of that article then includes information and images pertaining to the sexual act. The image is foremost informative. And while as you pointed out the inconvenience is so slight as to be negligible, I am increasingly alarmed by Wikipedia's conversion to a governmental, "ordered" structure due to societal pressures. One wonders if our free society of the informed is on the long and winding road to Hell. It all begins with compromise. In this case, you're an administrator so I'll relent.Waelwulf 18:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Weaelwulf, thank you for your reply. As tempting as it is to accept your deference to the fact that I am an administrator so that this turns out the way I hope it will, I don't claim any special right based upon the fact that I am a sysop.

I've been around a while, I've made a fair number of edits, and I've participated in a fair number of policy discussions. I guess I was made an administrator partly based on that experience, and partly as a show of community trust, which I appreciate. If you want to defer to my opinion because you respect my experience and trust my judgement, that is OK.

But I can't/don't clim some sort of magical monopoly on knowing what is best just because I'm an administrator. I do think my idea is best, of course, or I wouldn't have suggested it. But if you truly disagree then I encourage you to continue the discussion.

With respect to the aritcle title being clearly labelled, that is true. But: (1) A lot of people still would expect to find an article they can read without graphical images of pornogarphy. That is what they would find in other encycopedias and in other on-line sources that they would possible consult, like MSN or WebMD (2) Anyone can make a wikilink say anything they want. I could write a wikilink that says safe sex or hobby or whatever. (3) Imaging someone just learning English, they may not have the same understanding of what "sexual act" means. Therefore, there are still good reasons to expect that people will come here with legitimate expectations not to view this sort of pornography. Johntex\^talk 22:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• I restored the linkimage per the longstanding compromise reached on this and other sexually-oriented pages. Johntex\^talk 17:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Just put the image in. It's more informative that way. If I didn't know what this was, I'd want to know. That's the whole point of an encyclopedia. Forget this whole censorship/offense/whatever debate. That debate isn't even Confucian. 75.24.215.160 05:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Revert war by 12.35.135.99

(Atomaton - my edits are not bad. Everyone is not straight - typical mid west mentality.) 12.35.135.99

The Creampie article is primarily about Cream Pies, not Felching. Cream Pie is primarily oriented about cum in a vagina. Technically it can be a form of felching, and felching can apply to men or women. Creampies apply primarily to women.

I was not trying to offend your editing in any way. I am sure yopur editing skills are likely as good as mine.

But, you have to admit, it takes what is a simple explanation, and makes it more complex, and more difficult to read.

You could add a line someplace something like "Some people apply the term "Cream Pie" equally to men or women". Although I don't agree, I'm perfectly happy to have a balanced article with many opinions. With your edit, so yo-ho will come along and say "Let's just combine felching and creampie articles together, as it looks like the same thing. Also, it takes one part of the fair and balanced view (mine and others) and changes it to another view (yours). Fair and balanced is presenting both opinions, not arguing over which one is right.

In pornographic movies, for instance, when someone (of any sexual orientation) goes out and finds a section of Porn with "Creampie" advertised as the Genre, they are all movies of women with cum dripping from their punani. They aren't pictures of gay men with cum dripping from their anus.

So, it seems to me that making the Felching article broader and more inclusive would make more sense than confusing pepole to make them think that a "Cream Pie" is just as much about men as it is women.

I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, but if I may offer some suggestions that could help.

• ) Editors seem to see an edit with just an IP address, like yourself, and assume that it is someone inexperienced, and often intent on harming or vandalizing an article. Of course that is not your intent. Sign-up and get a login, and people will not revert your stuff as often, I think.

• ) Assume_good_faith is an important value here, and changes are usually by consensus. Revert wars are very discouraged. (in fact there is a rule, called the Three_revert_rule that you should check out. Generally, there is lots of cool stuff about the community standards at Wikipedia:Community_Portal#Departments Especially look at tyhe section on "How to Resolve Conflicts" and "Working with others".

Thanks, and good luck! Atom 22:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think the anonymous poster would also do well to avoid making judgements about what constitutes a "typical mid west mentality". Such stereotypes are rarely helpful. Johntex\^talk 16:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Creampie definition made genderless

Several have made efforts to make Creampie gender neutral, and it seems weird to me. I have always heard the term used in the context of a woman -- cumming in a woman's vagina, and not anal (for either gender). Now, I admit I am heterosexual, but I have many gay and lesbian friends, and none of them seem to think of Creampie as a man ejaculating into a woman or man's anus. In speaking with some of them, that might be called "barebacking". But of course the term barebacking is used more broadly, as in unprotected sex, and is generally anal, but could be considered to be vaginal also.

Some confuse Creampie with Felching, as if it were synonymous. And, although I don't watch porn, it seems that in google, and from a list of porn films, none of the films with creampie as the prominent theme show anal ejaculation, or are featured in gay films. I'm sure there is plenty of porn that features both, but none of them advertise the acts taking place as "creampie sex". When most people hear the word "Creampie" they think of something similar to the image we have posted.

Does anyone have any references to "Creampie" used in contexts other than a man ejaculating into a woman's vagina? Could you find them and show them here? Thanks, Atom 00:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

So I did a bit of further research. I find numerous porn sites online that reference "creampie" All of the rfere to a man cumming in a woman's vagina. In some instances they refer to an "Anal creampie" They don;t call cumming in the anus a creampie, they call it an "anal creampie". That is to say, like a creampie (in the vagina) except in the anus. On other sites, numerous references to "Anal cumshots". BUt, I could not find one site that referred to a man cumming in a womans anus where it was called a "creampie".

Also, I found many gay sites that featured "anal cumshots". And after looking and looking, never found one site that seemed to refer to a man cumming in another man as a "creampie".

So, I am of the opinion that making it genderless, so that it can refer to a man ejaculating into either a vagina or anus may be reasonable and fair, but unfortunately, just innacurate, and not true to the definition or cultural usage.

We should change the article back to its original form where it clearly indicates a creampie as a man cumming into a woman's vagina. We can give an additional definition that describes an "Anal Cumshot, or Anal Creampie" as a variation of the Original Creampie. Atom 20:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. "Anal creampie" is just a variation of "creampie" and is a perfectly legitimate topic to discuss in the article since they are both featured in the same sites and publications. Also, the term "gay creampie", while not the predominant term, is in use. - DNewhall 23:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Reason for Revert

Three major problems with the latest update by 69.69.71.161, so I am reverting to previous version.

1. Inappropriate change of creampie description from being a "sexual" term to a "mating" term. Creampies do not necessarily mean mating, or reproduction, and it is much more accurate to be described as a term within sexology.

2. I have never seen creampie written with a hyphen as in "cream-pie", and do not believe this is accurate. A quick search on Google shows few, if any, instances of the spelling "cream-pie".

3. Use of the third person pronoun "humans" does not conform to wp:1sp. Furthermore it's usage is just plain awkward--I don't believe creampies have ever been used to refer to acts by species other than humans.Parnell88 16:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Creampie in US Cosmo magazine

Nobody want to mention a recent 2006 article by Cosmopolitan magazine which showed that many men often lie awake at night wondering how many times their wife or girlfriend had recieved a creampie by another man? It was in US cosmo I think - no idea where to find a source, I read it on an aeroplane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.193.212 (talk • contribs)

We can't unless we have a source for it so unless you can give us the issue number or someone else finds it we can't mention it. - DNewhall 02:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Addition of creampie actresses category

The recent addition of this category I think adds reasonable content to the article, and I hope others will pitch in what they know about certain films. I know I will if I can ever find the time. However, can we combine it with the previous category of "Notable creampie films" into a single table? My suggestion would be first column "Film Name", second column "Actresses appearing with creampie" and (maybe) a third column "Creampie genre" (i.e. vaginal/anal/multiple). I really feel this would be an improvement to the few sentences under "notable creampie films" that randomly name two films and provide little detail. Thanks! Parnell88 16:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree to the section's usefulness (particularly since I added it :-)), but I'm not sure if you'll be able to create useful table entries for several / a number of actresses, since their appearances weren't so much in released DVD titles, but via specialist content web sites. For example, I know Missy Monroe appeared in Creampie scenes in content released by creampiecuties.com and amateurcreampies.com, but I have no idea if either of these scenes were ever available via traditional 'hard media'. I guess at least a cite to where the content might be found, be it "Film / Online Provider"? pt

Hmmm. Anyone have any idea why CharlottesWeb would have reverted an edit including links to IAFD titles for DVDs in which porn actresses have appeared in Creampie scenes? I'm curious, because I put a reasonable amount of time into compiling the list. - pt

She may have used an automated tool. You are using an IP, not logged in, and you modifed an article that gets alot of vandalism. Try registering, logging in, and then make the modifications. Atom 17:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed from article

Removed original research. Interracial pregnancy is a turn-on 'for some'? -- Ec5618 11:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Psycology of internal ejaculation

Creampies are considered by some to be a somewhat "nasty" fetish, implying that people who receive them are somewhat perverted or "dirty". This view is particularly prevailant in modern American and British pornography. The possibility of women becomming pregnant is also a turn-on for some, particularly with interracial or non-couples (e.g. pornstars simply doing a job.)

An alternative view is that the creampie is a particularly intimiate moment, since the male reaches orgasm purely from stimulation of his partners oriface, and does not need to withdraw from his partner during orgasm. During orgasm, men often feel an intense bond with their partner, and (like most mamals) there is a evolutionary desire to thrust deeper in order to increase the chances of pregnancy.

Some men and women also enjoy receiving creampies. This can be for either of the reasons mentioned above, or sometimes simply for the feeling of warm seamen inside the body. However, not all people can feel the seamen (since it is already at body temperature) and it is not uncommon for women to be unaware of a man ejaculating inside her.

Okay, let's discuss. Let's look at some American porn titles related to creampies. "50 Guy Cream Pie" (she will let anyone/many men cum in her). "Blackbread" (black men "impregnating" white women (racisim too)). "Asian Insemination". "Black Dicks in White Chicks #3". "Creampie Milkshakes". "Eighteen 'N Interracial #14". "Split that Booty" (voilence). "Young, Dumb, and Filled With Chocolate Cum".

Compare this to creampies in earlier movies, such as those starring John Holms, or to European movies. In these films, the creampie is often presented as the "natural" end to intercourse, and the couple are shown embracing in a loving manner afterwards.

So, what exactly is it that you are objecting to. I'm afraid you didn't make it entirely clear... is it the "for some"? Because clearly there is a group of people buying these films. If it's just that bit, let's edit the text and put it back shall we? Mojo-chan 16:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

On what do you base your claim that some people find interracial pregnancy a turn-on? -- Ec5618 17:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

He is correct that some people consider that to be erotic. They find it erotic because it humiliates the man in that someone else has gotten his wife pregnant, and also that the person was of another race. This is inherently racist. Frankly, the number of people who have that fantasy, and are racist in that way, is extremely small. Note that he does not denigrate people of another race.

Of course, there are an infinity of sexual fantasies that people have, and cover the spectrum of possibilities. Often they involve pushing the fringes of some persons sexual experience. The unknown, and the forbidden (culturally/socially, religiously, or legally) are popular topics for fantasy. One not uncommon fantasy is of unprotected sex, risking pregnancy. Another not uncommon fantasy is of having sex with someone of a different race. Another less common male fantasy is of his wife having sex with other man. Combining those is yet another fantasy. Atom 17:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

We have no source for any of these opinions. As such, they are not allowed. -- Ec5618 18:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about reality, not research. His opinion is stated here on the talk page, and my response, accordingly, in that context. Of course his opinions, or mine, don't belong in the article unless cited or referenced. The opinions are allowed on the talk page. Atom 20:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologise for my brevity, in my last post. I have a small technical problem with my keyboard. Yes, the data should not be included without a reference, and even then, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information. -- Ec5618 21:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I just gave you lots of references. You ask the question "On what do you base your claim that some people find interracial pregnancy a turn-on?". I respond with a list of movies available to pander to this fetish. Clearly, there would not be so many movies where interracial (or at least racial) creampies are alluded to in the title if it were not a selling point. Thus, we have a source for these oppinions, they are allowed.

Also, I would like to point out that my additions cover much more than just this one specific issue. If you really still take issue with it, why not re-write that section and leave the rest (which so far you have not objected to) intact instead of reverting the whole thing? Mojo-chan 22:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This in no way shows that some people find interracial pregnancy a turn-on. On top of that, comments on the Talk page do not count as references. The article must contain references. The rest of the added text has similar problems, as none of it is referenced within the text. -- Ec5618 22:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ec5618, you don't seem to understand what I am saying. Are you trying to suggest that the movies I listed, although pornographic and sold for masturbatory purposes are not a "turn on" for those puchasing them? I think you are missing the point a bit too - it's not just the potential for pregnancy, it's the racist idea of , for example, "dirty" black sperm in a white woman. I'm going to add references to the text, and restore it. Unless you can actually critique each part of the text and come up with concrete reasons why it needs to be removed, rather than improved, please refrain from rv'ing it.

You must please try to understand that while everything on wikipedia is not perfect and does not agree with your own world-view, it is almost always better to try and improve it than to simply delete it. If you feel references are needed, please call for them with citation tags first. If no-one responds with, say, a week, then maybe it's time to think about an rv. Mojo-chan 09:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My worldview is not the issue here. Wikipedia policy is. Your text makes a lot of claims, but sources none of them. "The racist idea"? Find a source that talks about this. Your list of films is not a source, it is original research.

According to Wikipedia policy, unreferenced content may be removed. The tags are used when it is likely that the information is accurate, and that a source will be found. I doubt those things. -- Ec5618 09:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Your personal doubt is irrelevant. There are others who have posted here who agree with me. Also, I will add references. It is easy to do, as there are plenty of web sites listing these movies and their blurbs make it quite clear what angle they are going for. Mojo-chan 12:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Your claims are irrelevant until they are cited, regardless of the number of people who find your claims credible. The 'source' I keep asking about would be, for example, an article on people who find interracial pregnancy sexually interesting. Again, listing films that feature interracial couples proves nothing about interracial pregnancy. -- Ec5618 12:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the article. There are lots of reasons. I gave a fair shot at leaving it in, and editing it to try to leave in your perspective. The trouble is, after editing, there was not enough left to be meaningful. Here is my peer review of your suggested addition to our article:

• Several words misspelled. "Psycology = Psychology" "intimiate = intimate", "mamals = mammals". Many others. We don;t want to proof read your work. Work it out with a spell checker first. Everyone makes mistakes, this was just sloppy.
• Creampies are considered a "nasty" fetish. is POV, and innacurate. It is a fetish. People who get turned on by it, do. Others, don't. If you don't care for it, fine, but don't put that POV in the article, just describe "creampie".
• Your citation is not formatted according to wikipedia standards, and also is a link to a commercial site. Not a good link.
• "and (like most mamals) there is an evolutionary desire to thrust deeper in order to increase the chances of pregnancy" find a citation, or leave it out.
• "Examples of pornography which cater to this view include the Couples Cream Pie series." We don't want examples of Pornography, we want an encylopedia article describing it with sources.
• "Some men and women also enjoy receiving creampies." Men don't have a vagina usually, they can't receive creampies. They can receive "anal creampies", but that is a different topic.
• "either of the reasons mentioned above, or sometimes simply for the feeling of warm seamen inside the body." Nice guess, let's get a citation. Most women say they can't feel the "semen" unless/until it drips out. But, you said that. That's kind of confusing.
• Put the Pyschology section at the bottom, it is not the focus of the article, but a sideline.

In reality, the Psychological aspects have to do with:

• The danger involved, and the thrill of the danger, including possibly getting pregnant, or STD/STI's.
  • The unknown
  • The taboo - that level of intimacy with a stranger, someone of another race, violation of social rules
• The intimacy of direct skin on skin.

The focus of creampie is not on the interacial aspect, that is just one of my permutations. There is no need to focus on that aspect in your section.

In short, get your section in form first, work out the problems, and then see if it gets consensus with other editors. Forcing it on people and creating edit wars is not the method for doing that. Regards to you~ Atom 13:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, okay, let's go through your points one at a time shall we.

1. "Here is my peer review of your suggested addition to our article:" Your article? Do you retain copyright on it?

2. "Several words misspelled." Fair comment.

3. "Creampies are considered a "nasty" fetish. is POV, and innacurate." "Others, don't. If you don't care for it, fine," You seem to misunderstand me here. Perhaps I should rephrase it as being marketed as a nasty fetish. Did you bother to read any of the links I provided? Perhaps it would help if I actually quouted some of it in the text? For example, the blackbred site has a whole page on how the woman was mistreated and abused by black men. I can cite numerous examples of other films marketed in this way, such as the "Cream pie surprise" series. To sum up, it's not my POV (I personally don't agree with it) but seems to be the predominant POV of American and British manufacturers of pornography.

4. "Your citation is not formatted according to wikipedia standards, and also is a link to a commercial site. Not a good link." Fair enough, please correct it or I'll do it myself.

5. (deeper thrusting) I have one in my medical dictionary here, but I am having trouble finding one online. I'll keep looking, but in the mean time I suggest a citation tag. If I cannot find one, I can always cite the book.

6. ""Examples of pornography which cater to this view include the Couples Cream Pie series." We don't want examples of Pornography, we want an encylopedia article describing it with sources." This is another tricky one. There are lots of magazine articles and so forth on the subject, but trying to find anything about it on the net is next to impossible because of the shear number of porn sites eating up all female-related words. I do have a long forum discussion I could link to. I personally think the best thing to do might be to leave it out for now, until a magazine article can be quoted.

7. ""Some men and women also enjoy receiving creampies." Men don't have a vagina usually, they can't receive creampies. They can receive "anal creampies", but that is a different topic." The entire article has been de-gendered in order to consider all kinds of creampies, including anal creampies in both hetrosexual and homosexual couples. In fact, the first sentence is "when a man ejaculates inside his partner's vagina or anus".

8. Okay, going by personal experience here. As I say, it's not always possible to feel it. However, I do have one source if you are really interested... from the alt.bestiality FAQ, where they compare the feeling of human semen and dog semen.

9. Fair enough. I think the terms and concepts should come before the bit about porn too.

10. That's another good point. While I beleive what I wrote is valid, I agree more emphasis needs to be placed on the things you mention.

11. I understand how wikipedia works, thank you. No need to be patronising.

When I get time I'll do some revisions and post them here. Your comments have been much more helpful than Ec5618's, who didn't even seem to have an actual argument. Would you be interesting in writing a paragraph about the psycological aspects you mentioned? Mojo-chan 16:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My argument is the same as Atom's. Your addition to the article was poorly written. For the record,

1. 'our article' doesn't mean 'my article', it means 'our'. Plural.
2. POV is POV, even if it is the predominant POV.

I'm sorry if I haven't made my objections clear. I find the problems with the section incredibly obvious. Your claims are irrelevant until they are cited, regardless of the number of people who find your claims credible. The 'source' I keep asking about would be, for example, an article on people who find interracial pregnancy sexually interesting. Again, listing films that feature interracial couples proves nothing about interracial pregnancy. -- Ec5618 17:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Words fail me Ec5618, you really are utterly able to comprehend what I am saying. I'll try one last time, but don't expect further replies to your comments until you manage to understand it. Interracial pregnancy isn't the issue. Mistreating or being mistreated by "inferior" races is. Note, I do not agree with that concept at all, but it is clearly a factor for many. I will attempt to find an article, but I imagine it will be hard. The very existance of sites like http://creampiethais.com/ is a good enough source IMHO. For example, read the text on the page http://creampiethais.com/z_tour/. Actually, here are some quotes:

"little SUBMISSIVE fuck toy and fill her full of your man seed"

"Maybe they think it's a ticket to the promise land, or maybe they just want to breed. Are they on the pill? Who gives a fuck. Protection. Fuck no. Do I have illegitimate childern in Thailand? Probably. This is the REAL FUCKIN' DEAL."

This is far from the only example.

Your attitude is quite baffling. You seem to be under the impression that unless some random hack has written an article (which often don't state their sources, especially in newspapers and magazines) on a subject it isn't allowable. Would you, for example, dispute the fact that Arnold Schwarzenegger has been in many voilent movies? Sure, everyone has seen those movies, they exist and I can give you links to IMDB etc, quote the blurb from the box which talks about the voilent nature of the film, point out the 18 certificate... but you seem to think someone has to have written an article about how voilent some of his films are to be true.

Your mistake seems to be that, like any encycolpedia, Wikipedia often makes statements of obvious fact that are not backed up with sources. A good example would be a statement like "most human beings like sprouts". It's true, and no-one in their right mind would dispute it. It's a fact. Not oppinion. It does not require the kind of explicit reference you suggest. The fact that sprouts are grown commercially and sold as food all over the world is far more evidence than is required. The key point is that the fact is virtually impossible to dispute, because a anyone can easily prove it by visiting a food shop, just as I can prove some of the things I say by visiting a porn shop. Mojo-chan 20:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Words fail you. Most people hate sprouts. (See Brussels sprout.) Source your claims, and read WP:CITE, WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:NOT. -- Ec5618 20:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I just have to interject that this is one of the silliest and pointless arguments I've read in Wikipedia in a long, long time. Thanks for the amusement! (I hate Brussels sprouts, but I do like bean sprouts. Does that mean anything?) Zotdragon 20:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Words did fail me, I was supposed to write "some" but put "most". I am occasionally prone to this when typing. Zotdragon is right, this is a stupid argument. Clearly, you have decided you 'own' this article and will not allow any new, non-sanctioned ideas. Either that or you can't understand English. Either respond to my points or don't bother at all please. Mojo-chan 22:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you asking me to respond to your points again, or are you requesting clarification? Your text was, and is, unacceptable, as per the pages I asked you to read, as well as the points made by Atom.

You may als want to note that our article on sprouts doesn't state that most people hate sprouts directly, it references a study from which such could be concluded. Our article on paedophilia doesn't state that paedophilia is 'nasty', though that would undoubtably be a majority view. Instead, it states factual and unbiased information.

I'm sorry, but your text was far from clear, grammatically satisfactory, nor unbiased. If you need help with your grammar, that's fine. But don't make a mess and expect others to clean it up.

Finally, if you feel I haven't responded to your points, please restate them, as I see no other points. -- Ec5618 23:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Creampiesex.jpg missing?

Has been deleted, why though? Does another comparable image exist for this page to use? Mathmo ^Talk 05:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

After a bit of searching, seems Jimbo deleted the image to avoid 2257 regulations on sexually explicit materials. Perhaps Wikimedia ought to join the Free Speech Coalition and fight censorship in the US. 204.13.78.154 14:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

No I don't think that is the reason why. It did not violate 2257 regulations, and there was no discussion anywhere as far as I know. (if you have found otherwise, a reference would be appreciated)

The regulation covers "a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct" which the image was not. (I think people would argue that it is sexually explicit, but not conduct.) Also, the record keeping requirement is for "primary" and "secondary" producers, of which Wikipedia is neither. The content is encyclopedic, and not "intended for commercial distribution".

Even if someone wanted to argue that Wikipedia was in some way a "secondary producer" that DOJ definition has been struck down by the courts.

I think the reason that he removed it is because he didn't like it. Precedent seems to be for following Mr. Wales lead on Wikipedia issues. I suppose it is possible that someone complained, and not taking a chance on legal action was easier than fighting it. If we are going to take a legal stand on censorship, I'd rather it was over something more important that this. (of course I'd also rather that the government didn't coerce others into abiding by behavior that don't really apply to the existing laws.)

Atom 16:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw the summary, but didn't make sense as a valid reason to me. And if it was over legal reasons that would have been mentioned, but it wasn't. So the only explanation we can be left with is that he simply didn't like it? Not a very good reason at all. Hmmm.... Mathmo ^Talk 20:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo did mention legal reasons. He deleted the image with the edit summary "Image would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements". Jimbo has paid legal advice from the foundation attorney on such matters, most of us do not. As for fighting so-called "censorship" that is an over-used word. The governmnet is in its place to put conditions on the use of speech and action (screaming "fire" in a movie theater, preaching the violent overthrow of the government, sexually-oriented phtographs of children, etc.) Plenty of porn sites comply with the restrictions and operate just fine. We are not a porn site. We don't need the burden of complying with those types of regualtions. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not tilt at windmills. Removing the picture was the right thing to do. Johntex\^talk 20:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I respect your view, but what I was asking was where did he mention legal reasons?? It is not in the edit summary[2], and not in the talk pages. You know, you keep talking about porn. I haven't seen ANY porn on wikipedia, and yet you say things like "We are not a porn site." What does that have to do with this image? You seem to feel that every sexually explicit image is "porn". I think you need to look more closely at the Miller test. The reason that people fight the government in lawsuits, such as the Free Speech coalition[3] is precisely what you said: "We don't need the burden of complying with those types of regualtions." We aren't a porn site, we don't produce porn, we don't allow porn on any of our articles. We don't sell out content, regardless of how it is characterized. We clearly don't fit the intent of the law as stated by theChild Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act. As I said earlier, I can understand a desire by the people responsible for the welfare of Wikipedia to avoid potentially costly legal battles against an oppressive government. Destroying Wikipedia economically in a costly legal battle that would result in Wikipedia winning, the government losing, and wikipedia being shut down from lack of funds would not be a desirable outcome. Atom 20:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I can respect that you may have a narrower view of sexuality than most people. Certainly than me. I support your right to that opinion. I support yout right to pursue your religious or philisophical values as you choose. But, you have to live your life your way, and stop trying to inject those values on other people. Allowing people to choose their religious philosophy, their values, their range of sexuality is what freedom is all about. If you feel that every sexually explicit image is some form of illegal pornography, then you are in the wrong place, as that is obviously not the generally accepted view, or the predominant view in this Internet community. Atom 21:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent - edit conflict) Thank you, Atom. I respect your view as well. You have a lot of points here worth discussing. I'll try to address them all if you will bear with me.

• Where did he mention legal reasons? - he mentioned it in the edit summary when he deleted File:Creampiesex.jpg. You will not be able to see the deleted edits or their edit sumarries if you are not an admin. His exact quote was: "Image would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements"
• Is there now, or ever has there been, porn on Wikipedia? - as you know, the definition of porn is somewhat subjective. I can assure you that you are mistaken when you say that "[I] seem to feel that every sexually explicit image is 'porn'" I would not agree with that statement. I guess we would have to dive into what "sexually explicit" means. I do know that I have seen porn on Wikipedia before. The most obvious examples have all been deleted. Some examples I consider borderline do remain, such as an image of someone performing autofelatio.
• We are not a porn site, what does that have to do with anything? - Unquestionably, Wikipedia allows articles on topics related to pornography. We have dozens of articles on movies and magazines ranging from Playboy to Deep Throat and beyond. Unquestionably, for non-pornographic movies, we allow fair use screenshots. Why then, don't we have fair use screen shots of porn movies? We need to draw the line clearly that to do so is not acceptable tone for an encyclopedia. It is not censorship, it is editorial restraint and a common sense judgement about what is good for the project.
• We don't sell our content - true, but we do encourage re-use and we also encourage material submitted here to be acceptable for re-use as is, even for commercial uses. I think we go too far in worrying about re-use, but it is ther.
• Destroying Wikipedia economically in a costly legal battle ... would not be a desirable outcome - Agreed 100%
• Unmentioned in your post is anything about serving our readers - one of the things that I feel strongly about is that we are not here just to build an encyclopedia. We are here to build a credible encyclopedia that is used by and useful to a wide range of people. Doing this means that we need to follow encyclopedic norms with respect to sexual content. If EB would not show a photograph of a man sucking his own penis, we may be better serving ourselves and our audiance to follow established conventions regarding what constitutes encyclopedic content.

Again, we are not here to push boundaries of sexuality. We are not here to campaign against any governments policies. We shouldn't spend too much time trying to push boundaries and be edgy. We should (in general) utilize the time-worn solution of presenting images that are less controversial. Johntex\^talk 21:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

As always, thanks for your opinions and insight. Even if I may not agree with some things, I never have any doubts about your good intentions, or good faith.

Our goal isn't really to build a reader base, but to build a comprehensive encyclopedia of human knowledge. We can't hold ourselves to the EB standard, as we have already surpassed EB from a number of criteria (perhaps not all). I feel that building a quality encyclopedia means working on the Attribution, reliability and verifiability of references, as well as continully trying to get more sources and better sources and references for information presented as facts. By not allowing in random content such as blogs and illegal content that may come from myspace, youtube and the like we can follow a process of successive refinement that improves the quality of Wikipedia.

As you know, my area of expertise and focus on Wikipedia is sexology and sexuality. I'm sure I spend subsnatially more time than you do with the breadth of articles on Wikipedia that fit that category. Most of that is in keeping the articles maintained by reverting the constant barrage of vandalism. Also, archiving talk pages and the like. Trying to establish some guidelines for images, with your assistance has been important so that rather than every image taking the kind of time and energy that this image has, we can come to some community consensus on how to handle some kinds of images. We still need to do much more work in that area. Accurately documenting the very broad range of sexuality is what is encyclopedic. Documenting it accurately is not pushing boundaries. Images or artwork of real sexuality is not pornography.

It may possibly be true that there are a great number of people who would, if they could, push a button and immediately stop all occurences of sodomy, all pornography, all unusual sexuality that deviates from the "norm", anything erotic, anything sexually explicit. I would, if I could, push a button that would make all people be honest and open about who they are, and their behavior. Obviously in a predominantly christian country, such as the U.S. or U.K. the occurance of sexual behavior, including purchasing and viewing "pornography", adultery, fornication, spanking, bondage, BDSM, and swinging is HUGE and growing. A majority of the populace, in public or in private participate in those activities regularly. If the 2003 estimate that pornography is a $10 billion industry is correct, then a lot more people than a few truck and taxi cab drivers participate in buying porn. Those numbers are hard for me to imagine, since I haven't spent $1 on porn in the past 20 years. What I am saying is that people need to start practicing what they preach, or we need to change society so that what is normal behavior by most of us is not disparaged as deviant and pornographic. Wikipedia is not about changing society, but it is about openness, honesty, and documentign and cataloging the facts. We need to continue to do that on Wikipedia, and not be swayed to change our behavior to hide or lie about aspects of human sexuality because a small minority of people feel that it is at odds with their religious philosophy (even though they buy porn and are having an affair).

As always, thanks for the discussion. Atom 22:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for giving the source for your comment. I had not realized that you were referring to the edit summary on the deleted image itself. Mr. Wales could probably help by putting something more specific in the edit summary. That would prevent most people from re adding the image, or similar. Frankly, whomever gave him legal advice that such an image was a violation of 2257 is mistaken. Perhaps conservative, but mistaken. That's my non-legal opinion. For the reasons we discussed earlier, I can't fault for being cautious in dealing with a conservative right-wing government. Atom 22:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello again, Atom. Your second post (made while I wrote the above) seems to me to be significantly more argumentative. I don't know if you intended that or not. Again, I will address each of your points:

• "I can respect that you may have a narrower view of sexuality than most people. Certainly than me." - I doubt my views on sexuality are narrower than yours. I can assure you there are pretty broad. It is my views on what belongs in an encyclopedia that may be substantially different from your view.
• "I support your right to that opinion. I support yout right to pursue your religious or philisophical values as you choose." - great, but I have not argued any such point. I don't think this statement of yours is relevant.
• "But, you have to live your life your way, and stop trying to inject those values on other people." - This a red herring. I am not trying to convert anyone to any view. I am trying to make what I believe to be a better encyclopedia. You are free to differ, but let's not misconstue my intnetions, and let's not get so personal.
• "Allowing people to choose their religious philosophy, their values, their range of sexuality is what freedom is all about." - it sounds to me as if it is you not I who are tryign to convert people over to your philosophy.
• "If you feel that every sexually explicit image is some form of illegal pornography, then you are in the wrong place, as that is obviously not the generally accepted view, or the predominant view in this Internet community." - asked and answered, please see above.

Thanks, Johntex\^talk 21:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Johntex: My apologies. Perhaps I was carried away by the emotion of the moment. I assume good faith with you, and didn't mean to be too personal. Perhaps I was discussing, with you, the kind of emotions that results from a multitude of people who want to remove whatever they personally find objectionable. Certainly applying such a generalization to you personally would not be appropriate, and not my intention. I think we agree on the motivation to make a better encyclopedia. We have very similar, but somewhat different, views on some aspects of that. My view on sexuality is that the more open and honest we can be, and the more accurately we can document human behavior regarding that, the better we all will be. Information and facts about sexuality does not harm people. The more people know and understand about sexuality and human behavior, the bettr we all will be. As Wikipedia is a forum and platform dedicated to not censoring, and honestly discussing issues and trying to document knowledge, it seems like a perfect forum for frank and open discussion of sexuality to help people get over end remove inhibitions from being "protected" and shielded from the facts. You seem to feel that we can be too honest, push boundaries, to edgy. So, we differ in our opinions on that. Best to you. Atom 22:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you Atom - no great harm done. I agree with you that our views are similar in many ways. I want us to be "honest" definitely. I am not sure I can think of any instance where we could be "too honest". I do think we can be "too edgy" though. That being said, I agree with your desire to be "honestly discussing issues and trying to document knowledge". Would it surprise you to know that I am currently engaged in an effort to undelete the article on Ass to mouth? At the same time, however, I would not suport video or photos on that article. Best to you as well, Johntex\^talk 22:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

List of porn performers

I guess I don't much care for the list of porn performers either. The article isn't about porn, and just because act of a creampie occassionally occures in a porn isn;t (IMO) sufficient. Should we also add a list of porn performers to penis, breast, sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, vagina, spanking, etc...Atom 22:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It all comes down to the definition of creampie. I personally do not consider semen leaking out of a vagina as a result of intercourse to be a "creampie" unless it is in the context of pornography. I don't think that ordinary sex produces creampies any more than it produces "cum shots", even though the same act may be taking place. So I think that this article is about porn, which makes it different from penis, etc.. --Strait 00:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, the list seems silly and pointless, so perhaps it should be removed anyway. I mean, there have probably been thousands of performers who have done creampies by now. How does listing them make this article any more encyclopedic? --Strait 00:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we shouldn't list all of them, but some of them would be known for doing creampies. Those few ought to be listed here, and not the others. Mathmo ^Talk 10:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought that we decided to not have a list, as it would end up growing and growing. Why did you put it back? Do you reaslly think it adds any value to the average reader of the article? Or is it just more cruft? Atom 04:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Linkimage

Template:Linkimage has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 23:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

HIV-AIDS

By the way, can anyone tell me which method of care use porn actor about HIV. I mean, yeah, yeah, they made test theyself... but these tests, (according to WHO) take time to produce the result (about two weeks to month) say nothing that you made the test last week and you perform and get HIV from a HIV-POSITIV last night and next days you have sex with your porn-partner!. We know porn actors with several year of trayectory, without having any manifestation of AIDS!. I mean they must have an active sexual life outside de studio, haven't they?. I don't get it ? they have super powers or something ? :-).