June 7

Weird incident

I received an anonymous note in an envelope recently. Is there a way to narrow down what type of person wrote it based on the handwriting and content? Is there a book or website that can help me figure it out?76.16.216.41 04:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your first stop should be Graphology, though the accuracy of the process is debated. —An gr 04:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

thanks. Do you know of any websites or books I can use?

Dood, the graphology page is full of relevant external links (see the bottom of the page). Anchoress 06:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dood??? *scribbles Anchoress' name off the top of the cool board* *inserts somewhere near the bottom, just above anonymous IPs*. 213.48.15.234 07:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right. Here on the language desk we always spell it dude.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Learning Hanzi/Kanji

Is it reasonable to attempt to learn Chinese characters (many of them doubling as Japanese Kanji) without learning a spoken Chinese dialect (or spoken Japanese)? My ultimate goal would be to be able to read Chinese (which I know would require learning character combinations and syntax) and to be able to make out place names on signs when traveling in Japan. I do not expect ever to speak more than the most rudimentary Japanese or Mandarin. If these characters can be learned apart from the spoken language, can anyone recommend a program or method for learning them? Thank you! Marco polo 15:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (Alas, it is true that Marco polo's Chinese skills are rudimentary.)[reply]

You can, by learning to speak Korean instead. ;) See Hanja. More seriously, it's easier to grasp written symbols when you know how to read them. --Kjoonlee 18:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly possible. There are web sites and books specifically designed to teach you about the characters: [1]. You can find the Chinese characters for place names in Japan, Korea, and China on their Wikipedia pages. But I think you'll enjoy it more if you learn them in the context of a particular language. If you're going to Japan, learn katakana first, then hiragana, then some kanji. You'll be amazed how many words you can make out in shop windows and signs, because katakana are used for writing foreign loan words, and lots of them come from English. Signs in places like the subway or train stations will have the Japanese name in kanji and sometimes also hiragana, and in romaji. So you can learn new characters and place names as you go. But it will make a lot more sense if you learn katakana and hiragana first. --Reuben 18:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is the Oxford picture dictionaries, but IIRC, the kanji in it are not paired up with kana, which makes people going from English to Japanese a lot harder than going from Japanese to English. But it does fit your specific purpose of wanting to learn how to read kanji if you're still bent on learning to read without learning to speak. That'll be weird when you read though, because how will you sound them in your head, or will you translate every word to English as you read? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 19:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that many many kanji consist of a phonetic part ("sounds like horse") and another part that hints at the region of semantic space where it belongs; so it would be hard to avoid learning something of the pronunciation. —Tamfang 22:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My primary goal is really to be able to read Chinese. I have actually studied a bit of Mandarin, so I would learn the Mandarin pronunciations. I am thinking of a trip to Japan perhaps 2-3 years from now. My idea was that once I had learned maybe 3,000 Chinese characters, I could get a guide to the Japanese pronunciations of the most commonly used kanji, maybe learn katakana and hiragana, and some very basic spoken Japanese, and this would make my trip to Japan easier and richer in meaning. However, my primary purpose is to learn to read Chinese. My second motivation is that the characters fascinate me. Being able to find my way around in Japan is less important to me. I am less interested in speaking Mandarin or any other Chinese language, because I do not foresee a trip to a Chinese-speaking place. However, I believe that China will be a growing global cultural influence in coming decades, and I would like access to Chinese literature and web content. I was also thinking that it might be interesting to be able to read some Chinese literary classics. Possibly I would want to improve my Mandarin listening skills so that I could understand Chinese video, but that project would come later than learning the writing system. Now that this is clear, is there any flaw in my plan, and are there any aids you can recommend for learning the Chinese characters (with Mandarin pronunciation), rather than the kanji, which might come later? Thanks again. Marco polo 19:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of Marco Polo are you without a visit to Cathay? --Lambiam ^Talk 08:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many Chinese words consist of more than one character, most often two, and the meaning of the word can often not be found in a straightforward way from the meanings of the individual characters (for example, mao "lance" + dun "shield" = maodun "contradiction"). You'd still have to learn these. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hey Lambiam, I really like your example! Seems that you've got the crux of the problem. It's indeed a big problem to make people distinguish between words (ci 詞) and characters (zi 字). I'd say 99% of Chinese do not know what the difference is between words and characters. And the non-Chinese learners are just fascinated or driven mad by the characters. I'd like to tell every learner of Chinese: the characters are sirens, don't look too close at them, or you'll be lost.--K.C. Tang 01:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further to the idea of learning the Japanese pronunciations of the most commonly used kanji: these generally have several "readings", both on (Chinese) and kun (Japanese) readings. Some common kanji have as many as ten different readings, the correct one of which to use depending on the intention of the kanji's use and its context. When kanji is used in names, you just have to know how to pronounce it (almost like English Cholmondeley, but actually worse because it is so pervasive). --Lambiam ^Talk 09:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam, it is a little embarrassing that I have not been to China and don't foresee going there. The reason is that I have no need to go, and, from what I understand, it is an unpleasant place to travel. In this, I am unlike the real Marco Polo, whose name I adopted due to my interest in geography and history and especially the intersection of the two, and, obviously, not because of any China savvy.

However, I have studied a bit of Mandarin, and I already know that in modern Chinese most words consist of two (or more) characters and that I would need to learn these combinations. I also know all about on and kun readings. Still, each character carries some meaning, and your example, in which "mao" + "dun" = "maodun", is a case in point. While "lance shield" does not "mean" contradiction in English, it suggests it and knowing the meaning of each character has mnemonic and hermeneutic value.

Now that I've conceded this, is anyone willing to answer my original question: What is a good method or program for learning the characters (and perhaps later the character combinations)? Marco polo 13:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've only been to Hong Kong, but everyone I've spoken who had been to mainland China appeared to have enjoyed it. For learning kanji, there are some links in our article Learning kanji, which however appear to cover mainly online aids. For books, a list can be found on this page. The book Essential Kanji has good reviews on its page at Amazon.com. Some more book pages at Amazon.com: Lets Learn Kanji: An Introduction to Radicals, Components and 250 Very Basic Kanji (maybe a good start), Kanji ABC: A Systematic Approach to Japanese Characters, and Remembering the Kanji I: A Complete Course on How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters. --Lambiam ^Talk 15:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Lambiam. As for travel in China, everyone I know who's been there hated it and told horror stories! Marco polo 16:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

suffixies

Sorry to bother you. I am looking for words that can be added to other words, such as Tele, Micro, Graphic. I am trying to find out what I would have tto add to a word to make it say something/someone is dependant on something, the son of something, doesn't need something, and is written (instead of graphic, meaning is a picture). Any ideas?

English does not have a prefix or suffix for every concept. Sometimes it is necessary to use a separate word as a modifier. However, you can combine some words to make compounds. For example, if you want to say that something or someone is dependent on something else, you can add the component "-dependent". (Example: "The boat's schedule is very weather-dependent.") However it is often better just to say that "x depends on y". (Example: "The boat's schedule depends on the weather.") You might conceivably do something similar with "-independent": e.g. "The metro system is quite weather-independent", but this sounds awkward. In this case, it would be better to say, "The metro system is little affected by the weather". For "son of something", you really need to say "x's son": e.g. "the king's son". For written, as opposed to graphic, you could use the word "written" or "text" before the expression you want to modify. For example, "I would like a written explanation rather than a graphic explanation." I hope this helps. Marco polo 20:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Sorry. So what would it be in (Greek?)? Like supposing I wanted to say something like that so it sounded similar to the other words. Is there any suffxes I could use that would be authentically greek sounding?

Correct spelling or word use

Which is correct when referencing, is it "website" or "web site" ? 68.72.132.241 18:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See Website#Spelling. Basically your choices are "website" writ small or "Web site" capitalized. —An gr 18:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, there are three choices: "web site" is also widely used. I'll fix the article to mention this. The official web sites for the White House and the British royal family both spell it that way, for example. So does the Vatican site, at least in its meta information. (I don't assert that consistent spelling is used throughout each site; I searched on "web site" and these were among the top hits.) --Anonymous, June 7, 23:46 (UTC).

The Date

Can someone help me out - on June 5th the date was 5/6/7 and at 4 minutes past 3 it was 3/4/5/6/7. I believe there is a name for this. What is it? regards Brighton Belle

Sequential time according to the article and BBC. I think it's an ambiguous term though, since it can have a different algorithmic meaning, for instance. Maybe sequential date? ---Sluzzelin talk 19:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who writes the date and/or time in that manner? --LarryMac | Talk 20:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, the log-system at work I'm staring at right now, uses the following endian form: 05.06.07 08:09:10 (or 07.06.07 22:12:53 "right" now, CET). See also Calendar date for different forms. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, on this side of the Atlantic, it was 6/5/07 yesterday, so our big day was April 5, 2006 (4/5/06). Also, I'm unfamiliar with the use of a slash mark in clock readings ("3/4?"). -- Mwalcoff 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And I guess for countries who use yy/MM/DD, it'd be 01/2/3, 4:56 AM? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

from Pride and Prejudice

She is seduced by Mr Wickham and runs away with him without much thought for the consequences to her family, but Mr Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr Darcy.

What does "Mr. Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr. Darcy," mean? Mr. Wickham and Mr. Darcy are both marrying the same person? Huh???

It means, I assume, that Mr. Darcy convinces Mr. Wickham that he (Wickham) should marry her. Adam Bishop 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, it really means "Mr. Wickham is convinced by Mr. Darcy to marry her."

Right. Adam Bishop 23:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is going to help but...In "Mr Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr Darcy..." the her refers to Lydia and not Elizabeth. The sentence should be changed to active form.
Zain Ebrahim 09:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is in a section titled "Lydia Bennet". What in the world would make you think it referred to Elizabeth? Or did you just get the sisters mixed up? Clarityfiend 22:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 8

negative words

Why can the English verb "to be" be made negative? For example, I can say, "I am", and the negative form would be "I am not." I can also say "I can" and "I cannot". I can also say "I will" and "I will not". Sometimes, I hear people say "she needs" and "she needs not". Why can't this rule be applied to "see", "eat", and "fly" and some other words? 69.216.16.151 00:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have seen "I see not"; "I eat not" sounds like something you'd stick in a poem rather than speech and so does "I fly not", just a little addition. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

yes, people did say "I eat not" some hundred years ago (as the German still does today). So when and why later people changed it to "I do not eat"? I'd guess numerous papers have already been written about that. But do we have an article concerning this problem?--K.C. Tang 01:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In English, we ordinarily use the "emphatic form" for negatives and questions. So you can say "I live in a house," or use the emphatic form "I do live in a house," but the question and negative forms are "Do you live in a house?" and "I don't live in a house." The emphatic is formed with the auxiliary verb "to do," which is made interrogative or negative. I think the reason some verbs don't follow this pattern is that some very basic, common verbs aren't used in an emphatic form. You never say "I do be a Wikipedia editor," or "I do can edit the article." The future tense is different, because it's always formed with an auxiliary "will," so there's no distinction between emphatic and simple forms. --Reuben 02:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The general rule is that in English only auxiliary verbs take negation (It is! – It is not!) and inversion (It is! – Is it?) directly. For other verbs ("principal verbs"), the auxiliary-cum-pro-verb do is summoned to fulfill a "negatable" or invertible role. Like to do, the verb to need does double duty as a principal verb and as an auxiliary; hence it can be negated and inverted: Slackers need not apply!; Need I say more? As always with languages (and many other things), why things are with languages as they are is often hard to answer. Old English had a grammar with all the standard patterns of Germanic languages, including several different word orders serving different grammatical purposes. This language somehow evolved into Middle English with a much simplified grammar, including an almost standard word order without inversions (with vestiges of the old patterns such as inversion for auxiliaries, as well as literary, poetic, and some petrified uses). Unfortunately, the record is very spotty right in the extended period in which these big changes took place. The process of simplification went so far that some linguists developed the Middle English creole hypothesis. --Lambiam ^Talk 07:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's really cool!! Anchoress 08:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

indeed some scholars suggest that this type of "do" usage was caused by English's contact with the Celtic languages. Search "periphrastic do" on Google and you may get some useful information. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 09:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a little point of intrigue, I should point out that the vast majority of the few verbs that do take the 'x not' structure in Modern English were formed rather differently in Early Middle English. The negative in those days was put in front of the affected verb, and was often pre-contracted: thus, would not, were not, am not, was not, and even is not were 'nolde,' 'nere,' 'nam,' 'nas,' and 'nis' (or 'nys,' both are attested.) 'Don't know' was the rather pleasing 'noot' (ne woot.) --It's-is-not-a-genitive 11:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the intrigue, the same development as seen in English was parallelled in neighbouring Germanic languages like German, Dutch . Ic ne wit ("I not know") was "strengthened" to Ic wit na wiht or Ic wit no wiht ("I know no thing", literally "no living creature"). Na/no wiht was contracted to naught/nought, and from there shortened to not.

That is intriguing! Thank you for the explanation; it is certainly one to note down. I always wondered how preceding -ne- evolved into not. --It's-is-not-a-genitive 12:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Back to auxiliary verbs: 'have' is another which can be used both as an auxiliary and as a principal verb; but like 'be' and no other such verbs, it can take negation and inversion even when it is principal, eg 'We haven't any'. I believe that this construction is much more common in the UK than North America, but is losing ground. (Forty years ago, I don't believe one ever heard 'do you have' in the UK, unless in a habitual sense: the normal idiom was 'have you got', more elegantly 'have you'.) --ColinFine 23:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Try and"

Where did this bizarre piece of syntax come from, as in "Just try and stop me, Bond!"? I can understand it being used in the past tense ("I tried and succeeded"), but the way it is normally used in speech doesn't make any sense (especially when "try to" would fit in perfectly there). Laïka 10:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://linguistlist.org/issues/9/9-1298.html -- AnonMoos 13:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an instance of what is called a hendiadys: two words, one of which is in a subordinate role, put on an equal footing. Next to being a stylistic figure of speech, verbal hendiadys is also a feature of some creole languages, or languages that underwent partial creolization (see my answer to the preceding question). An example is Afrikaans: Hy loop en sing, literally "He walks and sings", for "He is singing while walking [along]", or Hy staan en gluur my aan, literally "He stands and stares at me", for "He is staring at me while standing [there]". The Danish verbal hendiadys mentioned in the Linguist List item referenced above appears to be quite similar. What is interesting about this English one is that (also with other verbs than try) it appears to be often used in commands or other constructions indicating a not yet realized goal (as in Come and get me!), and thus is well suited for taunting. --Lambiam ^Talk 14:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Translation from German

In WikiProject Plants we need someone to help us translating the very-high-importance-rated article about inflorescences. I'm trying to do it, but my German is at very basic level and I'm not even an English native speaker! Who we need is only somebody who knows German, we can provide the adequate botanical knowledge ourselves. Where/who should I ask? Thx Aelwyn 11:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Translation/*/Lang/de. Skarioffszky 12:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the German Wikipedia article de:Blütenstand is completely devoid of references, it can't be treated as a reliable source. You'd be better off writing the English article from scratch than translating a German article of questionable accuracy. —An gr 17:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Derivation

From where is the term, "Lambiam," derived? 69.216.16.151 16:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I’m Pam the Lamb, I am? ---Sluzzelin talk 17:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Lambiam should answer this. — Michael J 20:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, that was the point of this question. Note that in Portuguese it means they licked :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 20:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lamb I Am BBQ Backstraps - Winner 2006 Triple R Best Char Grill Recipe? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lambiam (talk • contribs).

I will not eat them, Lamb I Am, I will not eat Green Legs and Spam. —An gr 22:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IPA n

Is there a difference between n as in navy/nuke and the n as in end/grant in the International Phonetic Alphabet? To me, the n-sound preceding vowels sounds "harder" than the n preceding vowels. Sala Skan 20:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The IPA only has one symbol for all those n sounds, but depending on what precisely you mean by "harder" you could probably modify the symbol in various ways to reflect the difference. For example, if the first kind of n is longer in duration than the second kind, you could distinguish them as [nː] vs. [n]. On the other hand, for many people, "grant" at least (not sure about "end") doesn't have an n-sound in it at all; just a nasalized vowel followed directly by the t. In that case, you would transcribe "grant" as [gɹæ̃t]. —An gr 20:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, I didn't know that a ː (colon) was also possible after consonants. Sala Skan 21:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although initial "extra long" (geminate) consonants are not unheard (of) – for example Sranang Tongo has words like [ˈfːuru] and [ˈwːiri] – I don't think the /n/ in navy or nuke is lengthened; if anything it is actually shorter than when following a vowel in a syllable. This can be denoted in IPA as well, with a breve above the character, as in [ˈn̆̆eɪvi]. What I wouldn't know is if this is a reasonable thing to do. Do phoneticians have some criterion (if only a rule of thumb) for deciding when a perceived difference in length, not being a significant contrast as in a minimal pair, rises to the level that it becomes reasonable to denote it? --Lambiam ^Talk 23:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose any measurable subphonemic difference is worth denoting if it's the topic of discussion. In most cases, [n] alone would be sufficient to transcribe all the n-sounds of English, but if the phonetician is examining the duration of /n/ in different environments, and finds that there are four different discernible durations of /n/ in different environments, he may well transcribe the shortest as [n̆], the second-shortest as [n], the second-longest as [nˑ] and the longest as [nː], in spite of the fact that the longest English /n/ sound is still shorter than a true geminate /n/ in a language like Finnish or Italian is (ignoring compounds like pen-knife, in which the /n/ is as long as a true geminate). —An gr 07:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 9

"Maria's motorcycle helmet"

In "Maria's motorcycle helmet", "helmet" is obviously a noun, but what about "motorcycle"? Noun or adjective? And what is "Maria's"? I am not sure.

'Motorcycle' is an adjective describing the noun 'helmet'. "Maria's" is a possessive adjective also describing the noun 'helmet'. Remember to sign by typing four tildes (~). --Mayfare 03:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's an attributive noun. --Nricardo 04:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The modifier motorcycle is a noun, and it is not common to call it an adjective here, as in the first response. The term attributive noun is used for this attributive use of a noun. Unlike adjectives, you can't use this modifier as a predicative: *Is this helmet motorcycle? is nonsense. Together, motorcycle helmet is a compound noun having an "open form".

A modifier like Maria's is called a possessive adjective, but it is not truly an adjective, and therefore also called a possessive determiner. Like normal adjectives, it can be used as a predicative: Is this helmet Maria's?. --Lambiam ^Talk 07:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've usually heard such things called noun adjuncts. --Reuben 07:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maria's - Possessive noun!!! (This is not an adjective, people. "Blue," "fast," and "hard" are adjectives. A person is not an adjective.)

Motorcycle helmet - both (when seperate) are nouns, but form one compound noun when together. Another example would be "ocean fish." Some people call it a noun acting as an adjective, noun adjunts, or other needlessly complicated things. Just call it a "complex noun" or "two-part noun."

--67.177.170.96 05:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"-i" in feminine names

When did women start using spellings such as "Cathi", "Mandi", etc., for their names?

While this isn't definitive, these were popular enough spellings to be in the top 1000 baby names (US Census Data) as early as 1940. See e.g. Cathi in 1950, Sandi at roughly the 700th most popular name in 1940, or Cindi at 600 in 1950. Mandi is quite popular at 500 in 1970 but isn't popular enough to appear before that. It's worth noting that the "-i" variants are most popular when the "-y" variants are at the height of their popularity as well - for example, "Cathy" was one of the absolute most-popular (top 50ish) girl's names in 1950, at the same time "Cathi" appears at around 1000. Tofof 04:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

Hello. Why is The Secret Life of Walter Mitty so famous? Thanks. --Mayfare 03:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You might consider posting this to the Humanities desk, which deals with questions related to literature.Tofof 04:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ling: Female given name only?

I haven't encountered any Chinese male person with any form of "Ling" as a given name. Is Ling an exclusively female given name?203.21.40.253 03:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In a sense, it doesn't have to be, no. Chinese names, unlike western names, are a string of characters which stand for something, so pretty much any character with the pronounciation of "Ling" may be used for a name. Ling is also a surname though, such as in the case of fictional Ling Xiaoyu. However, Ling used not as a surname is generally feminine, and thus much more likely to be female. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou!203.21.40.253 01:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German-to-English translation request

Kindly provide a translation of Spontact.jad from German to English. This is the list of phrases in the Spontact program. Leave the text before the colon intact, translate only the part after the colon. Thanks! --Masatran 12:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Post-scipt: The translation will be useful to many people. I will acknowledge your help. I will post the translation on my web-page. --Masatran 13:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German genders and plurals

I've read German nouns. It seems that, while guessing plural forms is as hard as the genders, the genitive endings are rather regular, with only a few exceptions.

Is it advisable to memorize words with gender + noun + plural forms together, and only pay attention to genitive endings when necessary?--61.92.239.192 13:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Most masculine and neuter nouns are strong and form their genitive regularly (with -(e)s), so all you have to memorize is the nouns that are weak, and then remember which weak nouns form their genitive with -en (des Löwen) and which form it with -ens (des Herzens). For weak nouns, you don't have to worry about memorizing the plural, since it's always in -en. In colloquial spoken German, you don't have to use the genitive anyway. —An gr 14:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--61.92.239.192 07:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish double negation

I hope I'm not out of line asking a question about the Spanish language here, but a recent topic brought this question into mind.

In English, we have a rule that a double negative equates to a positive, for example saying There isn't nothing here is the equivalent of There is something here.

In Spanish, I frequently hear a phrases such as "No hay nada aqui" which equates to the first English phrase I quoted above. However, I'm wondering if, in Spanish it is acceptable to state "Hay nada aqui", and if so, I wonder how, gramatically speaking it is possible that both phrases mean the same thing. Can somebody enlighten me? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When I hear someone say There ain't nothing here!, I assume they mean "There is nothing here!". Although considered substandard nowadays, it is standard in some versions/registers/dialects of English (with a respectable pedigree), to the extent that if you say "there is nothing here", you run a chance of being corrected, because the audience will perceive this as ungrammatical. See the section entitled Double negative#Double negative resolving to a negative in our article on double negatives. Hay nada aqui, while understood, will be considered ungrammatical. --Lambiam ^Talk 16:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No hablo español, however a similar rule applies in other languages. In Russian, for example, if I wanted to say "I have never murdered anyone", I would say the equivalent of "I have never not murdered nobody". It would never be analysed by a listener into any meaning other than "I have never murdered anyone", just as "There ain't nothing here" is clearly meant to communicate, and effectively does communicate, the meaning "There is nothing here", syntactical rules notwithstanding. -- JackofOz 01:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I speak some Spanish, but yes by default negation is multiple. For example, if I wanted to say "I did not talk to anyone", I would say "No hablé a nadie", which would directly translate to "I did not talk to nobody", but really means "I did not talk to anyone." You can go further in this fashion with triple negation and so on, for example, "They never bring anything for anyone" becomes "Nunca traen nada para nadie." I don't know why negation is this way, only that it is!

As far as your question about saying "Hay nada aquí", I'm doubtful that that's gramatically correct. Hay is the present tense form of the verb haber, meaning "there is" or "there are", and so you haven't satisfactorily negated it with just the nada--you need a negation word for that verb, so in this case you need to say "No hay nada aquí." –Pakman044 02:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Jaxhere! Don't worry, this desk isn't merely for the English language, but for language in general. Most Romance languages have this contruction, and plenty of other languages too. It isn't possible to say 'hay nada aquí,' because in negative phrases, the verb has to reflect the object's negativity. The same was the case in Middle English, where the double negative was just as prevalent, if not more, than the singular negative: an example that comes to my mind is in the prologue to the Miller's Tale, where the narrator says:

“

He nolde avalen neither hood ne hat

Ne abyde no man for his curtesye,

”

(he would not take off neither hood nor hat, nor wait for no man out of courtesy.)

Shakespeare too used the double negative on a few occasions. The mathematical idea of two negatives equalling positive didn't really stick until the 17th century and onwards, which, 'coincidentally,' was the time that prescriptive grammarians and the idea that a language should comply to some kind of formal logic. The Romance languages (unless there's some bizarre Rhaeto-Romansh dialect to blow me out of the water) never evolved in such a way.

Best wishes,

--It's-is-not-a-genitive 12:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all for your comments. I was under the mistaken impression that the concept of double negation producing a positive was the same in other languages. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Haiku Rules

Why is metaphor/simile not used in haiku? All I find is: "Do not use it", but why not? And also, most haiku is unrhymed. Is this for a specific reason, or is rhyme just unnecessary for three lines? 207.81.203.137 20:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC) Evan[reply]

Haiku is a form of traditional Japanese poetry, which employs the mora to produce a distinct rhythm. As in a lot of poetry in many languages, rhyme is not used. This is partly because haiku are so short and their phrases are completed by kireji, pausal words. The lack of metaphor and simile is due to the sparse, descriptive nature of the haiku: the clever leaps of imagination are made by the reader rather than the poet, or, perhaps more positively, the poet prepares the imagery in such a way that the reader completes the description with the unspoken meaning. In some ways, it is more clever to write such sparse poetry, as you have to do all that other poems do but without perceived effort. — Gareth Hughes 20:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 10

Unicode Question

Upon viewing the page for the language of Deseret, the letters that are in Unicode don't show up.

What should I do?

Probably you don't have a font installed that includes the Deseret letters. I don't know what fonts have them; you could Google around and set what you find. —An gr 04:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem may be related to the fact that in Unicode the Deseret alphabet is outside the Basic Multilingual Plane. If that is the case, then presumably you will not see any of the characters of the scripts listed at Mapping of Unicode characters#Supplementary Multilingual Plane. I wouldn't know how to solve this. Perhaps people at the Wikipedia:Help desk or Wikipedia:Reference desk/Computing would know what to do. You should tell which OS and browser you're using. --Lambiam ^Talk 08:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

do they speak english?

i have this thinking that English is spoken (at least by some) in all the countries that were colonized by England. Am I right? I mean, they colonized america, and australia, so people from those places speak english. Some even made that language their national language. Please enlighten me if I am wrong. thank you very much..

Well, out of all the places that England colonised:

English is the official language: Australia, basically the entire Caribbean, Ascension Island, Solomon Islands, Falklands, The Gambia; Ghana; Guernsey; Ireland; Mauritius; Montserrat; Nigeria; Zimbabwe; Sierra Leone

Countries with English as one of the main languages: Canada, New Zealand, Guyane, Lesotho, Botswana, Cameroon (Anglophone part); Belize; Fiji; Kiribati; Tuvalu; Hong Kong; Pakistan; India; Kenya; Malta; Vanuatu; Malawi; Papua New Guinea; Pitcairn Islands; Seychelles; South Africa; Swaziland; Tonga; Tanzania; Uganda; Western Samoa.

Countries with vestiges of English: Sri Lanka; Bangladesh; Malaysia; Maldives;

Countries in which English is no longer really spoken as a first language: Yemen, Bahrain, Brunei, Myanmar, Cyprus, Egypt; Iraq; Kuwait; Oman; Qatar; Israel and Palestine; Jordan; UAE.

I hope that that answered your question ! --It's-is-not-a-genitive 13:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why English became the only or one of the official languages varies. If you look at the countries in the List of countries where English is an official language, most (not all) were one-time English colonies, starting with Ireland. In some cases (like the United States and Australia) English was imported by the original settlers, later non-English speaking settlers adopted the language that was dominant in their environment, and the English-speaking offspring of all these settlers become the dominant population group. In other cases (like India and Nigeria), English was the administrative language in the colonial period, and – although not spoken by significant parts of the population – was retained after independence mainly because the new state was a conglomerate of many ethnic groups, speaking many often mutually unintelligible languages, and no reasonably sized subset of these local languages would have been acceptable as the only official languages. In countries like Egypt, with one or only a few powerful ethnic groups, those groups' languages became the official languages, replacing English in all sectors of public life. In several of these former colonies most people do not actually speak or understand English very well, even if English is an official language. --Lambiam ^Talk 14:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A notable outlier here is Malta, where English is widely understood as a second language and is one of two official languages, yet the population is ethnolinguistically pretty homogeneous. A possibly unique case is Madagascar which recently made English an official language (beside Malagasy and French) despite never having been colonized by the U.K. or any other English-speaking country. —An gr 14:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike many other countries, there has never been any law, proclamation or decree that makes English the official language of Australia. It is "official" only in the sense that since 1788 it has become by far the dominant language here, and all government and parliamentary communications take place in English. -- JackofOz 13:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, England did not colonise Guernsey. Guernsey was (and is) part of the Duchy of Normandy, and they conquered us. At some point (our article doesn't seem to indicate when) most of the population stopped speaking French and Guernésiais and started speaking English. Algebraist 14:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recently transcribed some interviews done in Ghana, a few of which were in Twi or Ewe (through a translator). I noticed that whenever a measure of time was mentioned, such as four years or three months, it was in English. —Tamfang 19:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

formal and informal english

I am looking for samples of paragraphs one written in formal and the other in informal english to compare the two. Can anyone please tell me where I can find such on the web. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Japanese translation needed, thank you!

What does まりぽさ mean?

AlmostCrimes 17:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is written in hiragana characters. Together they spell out the word mariposa, which may perhaps refer to any of the meanings of Mariposa. Note that mariposa is the normal Spanish word for butterfly, but can also be used as an insult, as related in our article. Does any of this make sense in the context in which you encountered this? --Lambiam ^Talk 20:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does entirely, thank you - I also need further translations of しあわせです and きょはにようびです. AlmostCrimes 01:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know no Japanese either, but in a pinch you can often make a useful guess by just using the character table on the hiragana page plus an online dictionary. I find that しあわせです should read shi-a-wa-se-de-su, which I take to be shiawase, which means some thing like happiness or good fortune, plus desu, which is some form of "to be". "Be happy" or "Good luck"?? The second phrase きょはにようびです should read something like kyo-ha-ni-yo-u-bi-de-su. Kyoha means "wave", bi is beauty, and desu is "to be" again, but niyou or ni you seems to have many different meanings, including method, manner, kind, such as, in order to, appearance, employ, business, and calamity. Could be many things. "The waves look beautiful"?? --169.230.94.28 05:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently "The waves look beautiful" isn't right, so if there's anyone with a good grasp of Japanese out there? Thanks for your help, anyway. AlmostCrimes 05:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

きょはにようびです is probably typo of きょうはにちようびです (kyo-u ha ni-chi-yo-u-bi de-su), meaning "it is sunday today". As to しあわせです, Japanese commonly drops pronouns so we need more context to be certain who is happy but I think it's safe to assume it is the speaker, that is, it probably means "I am happy". --Kusunose 12:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that's done it for me (: AlmostCrimes 14:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

desu is the present indicative copula, is/are/am; it wouldn't be imperative as 169.230.94.28 guessed. —Tamfang 19:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 11

Euphemisms for "diarrhea sickness"

Neither the Diarrhea page nor its Talk page give a list of English-language euphemisms for the condition. Would that be appropriate content for either page (and if so, which?)—and how might I go about a Web search for such terms? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 11:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

wiktionary has

^[tone]: the runs, the squirts, the trots
(taboo slang): the shits, [spitting mud].

83.78.163.162 13:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks! I've never used Wiktionary before; it's about time...! -- Deborahjay 04:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My (Irish) grandfather often used to call it 'the scour,' but it seemed more of a dysphemism than anything else. Interestingly, this term came from the word once used exclusively for the condition when livestock suffer from it1. --It's-is-not-a-genitive 14:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Best sounding of the all though is Montezuma's Revenge - X201 14:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard it called 'the squits', 'the liquishits' and 'code brown emergency' before. --Kurt Shaped Box 14:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found the following list by searching "+Diarrhea +travel +Euphemism" on Google. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 16:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I neglected to indicate in my original posting of the query, that "travel" isn't an element here and in fact would be misleading; the text comes from a detention camp in WWII-era Occupied France, and the "sickness" aspect was a result of the internees' meager diet and overall poor health. -- Deborahjay 04:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's Google? ;) - X201 18:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If the wink was directed at the OP (= yrs. truly): I wouldn't search Google when seeking a linguistic term. Dictionaries, yes. But my query was especially directed at the WP community. -- Deborahjay 04:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it counts, but the literal translation from german is through-fall.

Actually, that's an interesting direction; the [inaccessible] original was in German or French. -- Deborahjay 04:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Urban Dictionary to the rescue - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=diarrhea has every term one could think of. Neil ╦ 19:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It hasn't got 'squits' or 'running dumps'. slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 19:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In all, Urban Dictionary impresses me as worth a look but with a jaundiced eye when seeking mainstream euphemisms(as I am). The majority of the entries strike me as slang, possibly limited to certain (primarily youth?) subcultures, and I can't help but wonder whether many are fanciful coinages of their (attention-seeking?) contributors...? -- Deborahjay 04:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I've ever heard a "mainstream" (non-slang) euphemism for diarrhea. You just call it "diarrhea" in polite company; you could almost say that "diarrhea" itself is the euphemism. If for whatever reason you wanted to avoid saying "diarrhea" in polite company, you'd just say "I've been having stomach trouble" or something vague like that. —An gr 04:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard it be referred to in polite conversation as gastroenteritis, even if it isn't always strictly that, because it has the same result. Neil ╦ 13:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or "Delhi belly". Neil ╦ 13:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about "loose motions"?Descriptive without being slangy?hotclaws 10:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Loose movements" (as American English puts it) is one I've heard over the years. This is along the lines I'm working, though this particular term doesn't fit the context (the title of an artwork depicting a French detention camp in the early 1940s). -- Deborahjay 23:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Loose tummy' is one I used to hear quite a lot. I don't think that 'bad guts' has been mentioned yet either. --Kurt Shaped Box 23:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My personal favourite is having a 'dire rear' (prob works better for non-rhotic speakers) Drmaik 14:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reviewing the range of responses, it seems what I need is not necessarily a euphemism—as the artist in question (Karl Schwesig) was known to employ irony and sarcasm in titling and captioning his depictions of the French detention camps—but WWII-era, i.e. early 1940s period slang, rather than the fanciful contemporary sort found aplenty in the Urban Dictionary. Perhaps I ought to ask my dad, a WWII vet...?-- Deborahjay 23:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The trots" is old enough; the OED cites it as early as 1904, and again in 1936. It also says it's used in The Thorn Birds, which takes place between 1915 and 1969. "The runs" seems to be later; it's first attested in 1962. —An gr 17:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! I'll use "the trots" enclosed in double quotes, and perhaps someday I'll have access to the original and tone up the English if necessary. Thanks, An gr , for going the distance on this one! -- Deborahjay 21:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the Southern USA, for some reason, most of the time we call it Montezuma's Revenge, though I don't know why. I don't know who Montezuma is, or even if (s)he exists. We also like to call it "Louisiana" (again, I don't know why) or "Shredded Shittake."

I've even heard "Indian/Mexican Firebombs," "[I've got a] Shit Geyser," "Colon Cleaner," or my personal favorite, "Someone Sunk My Battleshits!" You can always depend on the backwards boonies to come up with something silly... --67.177.170.96 07:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dude. We have an article called Montezuma's Revenge (and also Montezuma's Revenge (illness), which should probably be merged). Montezuma is a variant of the name of Moctezuma; two Aztec emperors bore this name. Marnanel 02:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The canadian redneck term seems to be "the ring of fire", especially after a night of suicide chicken wings and draft beer. Cheers. 24.226.90.6 00:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Rana sylvatica[reply]

hello (foreign)

I am looking for a word that I sort of remember. It means hello in some language, I don't know what. I am sure I will recognise it when I see it. So I need a list of ways of saying hello in different languages. Is there anywhere anyone here knows of where I can find this?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hello should have it. Neil ╦ 19:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Learning a foreign language.

I would like to learn welsh, just for the sake of it, not to get any qualifications. And I am busy, so I would like a relatively simple way of learning ion my spare time, not at a school. Ideally I would like to find somewhere on the internet that can tell me the basics of grammer or maybe a book I can easily find. Anyone here have any advice? Also I should say I don't expect to be able to spend a lot on this. So...

Take a loot at b:Welsh and the links from there. —An gr 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I've always liked http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/catchphrase/ . Marnanel 02:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 12

"Motion lines"

Hello, I'd like to know if there is a name for those lines used in Manga to indicate motions, such as those used in this picture. Thanks.--K.C. Tang 06:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Motion lines - X201 11:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

O, that simple! Thanks a lot.--K.C. Tang 01:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Writing a speech - valedictorian

I am not happy with this line, can you help me edit this. thx

our parents and teachers and staff, have done everything in there power to make sure, we got where we are today.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Apesadams (talk • contribs)

There's not much wrong with it; mostly a case of tweaking the punctuation. I suggest "Our parents, teachers and staff have done everything in their power to make sure we have arrived where we are today." It's always a good idea to replace the word "got" with something more meaningful if you can.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd use the simple past tense rather than have, particularly not have arrived, not entirely sure why. Or use past-future: "did everything to make sure we would arrive." —Tamfang 19:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a sentence at all. You might try "Thanks to our parents, teachers, and staff, who have done everything in their power to make sure we got where we are today". Altho I think the suggestion above to use "arrived" instead may be good. I suspect you're just pulling our leg, though. Friday (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're misreading it, which is no surprise given the random punctuation. Shantavira got it, though. "Thx" is not meant to be part of the sentence. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 15:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Our parents, teachers and staff have done everything in their power to get us where we are today (almost out of their lives)." Clarityfiend 15:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This recent story makes a lot more sense to me now. --TotoBaggins 19:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I spoke at my high school graduation based upon my grade in the Senior Speech class. We had awards for best student in each discipline (Math, Science, History, etc.) but speakers were not chosen on those criteria. Corvus cornix 21:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"heathen" vs. "pagan"

Hi, I am from germany and I have been wondering for quite some time what the difference in meaning between the two above-mentioned terms is. I suppose it is some connotation thing but I am not sure if I can figure it out correctly. -- 217.232.1.231 14:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you guess, they have different connotations. "Heathen" is used to refer to "others" in general, with the connotation that "we" have the "one true faith" and "they, the heathen" do not. "Pagan" has been reclaimed to some extent as a name for types of synchretistic nature religion, incorporating wicca, druids, pantheism and so on, although it also has negative connotations for members of formal religions.82.46.44.139 14:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The word heathen is seldom used today, except perhaps by Christian fundamentalists, who would use it almost as a term of abuse. The word sounds a bit archaic, and it is disparaging, as 82.46. suggests. Pagan is more current and neutral. Marco polo 15:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that pagan is more neutral. It sounds just as disparaging to me, you heathen. Clarityfiend 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree "pagan" sounds more neutral, and it's no coincidence that neopagans call themselves that, not "neo-heathens". The word heathen itself, though, isn't all that rare today, it's just rare in its original meaning "someone who does not practice one of the Abrahamic religions". Heathen today is sort of like barbarian or philistine. —An gr 16:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it's a little bit more complicated than that. These days, you get neopagans that absolutely insist they are heathens and say they practice heathenry (see here for illustration). For these people, Latinate pagan has derogatory connotations while they embrace the Germanic term. At the end of the day, as so often in English, they are just Germanic and Latinate equivalents, see Paganism#Etymology. dab (𒁳) 17:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Interesting enough there is some connotation controversy among english speakers either. I think your postings shed light on the topic from many directions creating a quite diverse picture. Just one more point: Is any of you aware of differences in connotation between Britain and the US? -- 217.232.1.231 22:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just checking, do you mean "Are there any differences in the connotations of 'pagan' and 'heathen' in Britain and the US?"? (Also, if you're trying to improve your English, you might like to know that 'either' at the end of your second sentence sounds odd :-) ) Skittle 20:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I mean that. Sorry for my poor english (and not thinking about the correct meaning of "being aware of"). It's been some time since I went to school and had regular english lessons. Thanks for your hints, I'll do my very best. ;) -- 217.232.48.215 21:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Assume person A says that person B is a heathen, and in the context it is clear that this is used in a religious sense. Most people – who have never met any neopagans – would then assume that person A is a Christian, and that they are stating as their belief something like that person B is one of those who will not be redeemed, but go to hell, because they are worshipping false gods. In contrast, when a speaker uses the term pagan it does not by itself suggest that they are themself a Christian. A second difference is that heathen also has a non-religious meaning, like barbarian, or philistine, whereas pagan is rarely used in another sense than referting to someone's religion, or lack thereof. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

languAge and dreams?

I'm bilingual I speak read and write bulgarian and english. My mother tongue is bulgarian and have lived in the states for about 8 years now. I rarely remember my dreams but I am convinced that I dream in english, where as a child I clearly remember dreaming in bulgarian. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what this shift means?

If you use mostly English in your daily life, English will feature in your dreams. I don't think that the shift means anything more than that. I don't know, but I suspect that English is more likely to dominate your dreams if it dominates in your personal relationships. I was raised in an exclusively English-speaking environment, but I learned German and lived in Germany for a little more than a year. During that time, some, but not all, of my dreams were in German. I suspect that if I had stayed there longer, most of my dreaming would have been in German. Even today, snippets of German occur in my dreams. I suspect that if you were to monitor it, you would find that Bulgarian still occurs in your dreams, even if you dream mostly in English. Please forgive me for the original research. I searched in vain for evidence of published research on this. Marco polo 15:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest that it means you've really assimilated English. My mother tongue is English but I started learning spanish in my late 20's. Now after over 30 years of using Spanish I still dream in English even though I'm in a totally Spanish environment for most of the last 20. What I did notice at one stage when I returned to an English environment was that whenever I had to think about an issue which I considered highly important, I was analyzing it in Spanish. I concluded that this was a subconscious device I employed to make myself focus more intensely on my thoughts, since it required more effort on my part to think something through in Spanish rather than English. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've lived in Germany for ten years and I still mostly dream in English (I grew up in the U.S. and lived there until I was almost 29 years old). However, I'm not totally immersed in German the way the questioner is probably totally immersed in English. I work as a translator and have mostly English-speaking co-workers, I go to an English-speaking church, I contribute to English-language Wikipedia, and at home I speak a mixture of English and German with my husband. When I do dream in German, it's because I'm dreaming of someone to whom I speak German in real life. —An gr 16:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I lived in Japan for ten years (I'm British), and I found that the longer I was there, the more my dreams would be in Japanese. I put it down to the simple fact that most of my daily contacts were with Japanese people and I was speaking only Japanese to them. I was, like An gr, working as a translator, but English was banned in the office (!) so even then I was speaking Japanese all the time. However, I would go through short, infrequent periods where I would dream of the UK and of my family, and those dreams were always in English, so I would agree with what Marco Polo and An gr say about it being related to your personal relationships. Another thing that I would agree about is that when I have to think about something complex, I find it much easier to do it in Japanese than in English, possibly because it does help me focus more. Manga 19:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, I've never tried thinking about complex or highly important issues in German instead of English. (I usually make it a point not to think about complex or important issues at all.) I'll have to try it next time, see if it works. —An gr 19:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

/æ/ in katakana

I've noticed that English words like cat and cash are rendered in katakana with /kya/ rather than /ka/. After any other consonant, /æ/ and /a/ are treated alike. Why is /kæ/ special? —Tamfang 19:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

/æ/ is a front vowel. Front vowels tend to cause palatalization, which can sound like the insertion of a /j/ sound. Plus, it's useful to distinguish "cat" and "cut." --Kjoonlee 23:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've no idea why that isn't done with other consonants, though.. Maybe the difference in the vowels led to a different perceived quality of the consonant, and it was most prominent with [k]? --Kjoonlee 23:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, Japanese isn't the only language that does this with English words. IIRC, the Jamaican Creole word for cat is [kjat]. —An gr 04:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 13

Kanji

Can Japanese be entirely written in kanji nowadays? How would one avoid using the kanas in order to write in an old fashioned style? Thanks. Húsönd 00:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you can take a look at Man'yōgana. But of course you cannot expect people understand you if you choose to write that way. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. Don't worry, I just wanted to know how to write in an ancient way. Not for actual communicative purposes. :-) Húsönd 02:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whose

Can the word "whose" be used in an 'object-possesive' way
Ex: At the end of the hall was a room whose door was open.
Books whose copyright has expired.
Is this correct? --Codell^«T» 01:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's common to find such expressions, and it would be considered correct these days. Only a pedant would insist on "Books the copyright of which has expired" (or "Books the copyrights of which have expired"). -- JackofOz 01:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Our article says that "Note that whose, while sometimes reserved for human antecedents, is commonly found also with nonhuman ones..."--K.C. Tang 01:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To support this claim that some pedants might avoid it, I cite the OED's notice: "usually replaced by of which, except where the latter would produce an intolerably clumsy form." But I find it more interesting that the OED gives a long run of citations of "whose" in reference to things, from Wyclif's 1382 translation of the Old Testament down to the present day, by way of Shakespeare ("I could a Tale vnfold, whose lightest word / Would harrow vp thy soule"), Milton ("Mountains on whose barren brest / The labouring clouds do often rest"), et al., so that in my view those are some excessively pedantic pedants who object to this familiar and natural usage! Wareh 14:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, this answers my question. --Codell^Talk 01:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would be "books whose copyright have expired". Corvus cornix 01:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ, Corvus. It is the copyright that has expired, not the books. More plausibly, though, the books do not share a copyright. In that case, it would be "the books whose copyrights have expired". Marco polo 01:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, Marco, your second version is better. Corvus cornix 01:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Phonetics and phonology of English and ...

What books will I need if I want to study these topics on my own? I am told that, in the case of English, some parts include

A

The organs of speech
The International Phonetic Alphabet (the chart)
English Phonemes
Vowels: Classification, front vowels, central vowels, back vowels, diphthongs. English phonemic system and its notation ( with diagrams)
Consonants: State of vocal cords, manner of articulation, place of articulation. Consonant clusters
Practices and applications

B

The pronunciation of General American
Accents: General British Vs General American
Kenyon & Knott (K.K.)
Pronunciation of ed-ending verbs
Stress
Sound-changes: assimilation, elision, elision in contracted forms
Linking
Strong form and weak form of the structure words in English
Styles of pronunciation
Intonation: falling tone, rising tone, fall-rise tone, tone unit boundary, prominent syllable

I don't know whether I shall 1) find a class course elsewhere, 2) take a related course in university after I enter a university (very soon) or 3) learn them in other ways. What books (or wiki articles, whatever) would you suggest?

I have briefly gone through the "A" parts above. I just don't quite understand the "B" parts.--61.92.239.192 05:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can first take a look at English phonology, regional accents of English speakers, stress (linguistics), intonation (linguistics) and sound change. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 06:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We also have articles on General American and Kenyon and Knott. —An gr 18:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

proper use of the word riparius?!

This is a rather interesting thing i came across. I was just playing a Command&Conquer game called "Tiberian Sun". This game, unlike Red Alert 2, didnt have tooltip text for objects in the game......

Until now. An upgrade made it available for use during game play. While i was playing, i noticed these odd trees that spit out "Tiberium", a special resource in the game. When i hovered over this tree, i noticed a strange name for the tree in the tooltip text.

"Tiberium Riparius" !

...So i looked up the name at dictionary.com and also here at wikipedia. "Riparious" is a similar word which means an object that lives by a river bank. the word "Riparius" in Latin literally means river bank. However.... this Tiberium Riparius is located by water in some cases, but not always.

"Riparius" also can refer to a soldier in a byzantine frontier unit.... which refers to roman forces, and thier move to byzantine, which is the old name for constantinople/istanbul according to my friend. This reference doesnt make sense either unless theres some cultural conection im missing.

The purpose of this odd tree is to restore resources to the playing field, but i dont understand the reson for the assigning of its name. is there one???

If not, i surmise that maybe the creators of the game didnt have the tooltip text, so they never thought that players would see the name of the object, and named it something random that has nothing to do with nothing. If thats the case... SUPRISE! we can read it now!

(edit): maybe the latin version of this word is supposed to mean "USUALLY grows by rivers" ?

172.162.215.155 08:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about Tiberian sun, but riparius is used in several examples of the binomial nomenclature of species: Ancylometes riparius, Sylvilagus bachmani riparius, Myotis riparius, Elaphrus riparius, Gyraulus riparius, etc. Presumably, some of these were named after the ecotope where they were first discovered, which need not always coincide with their main habitat.83.79.154.143 11:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(added) The examples given above are all animal species, but I found a plant as well: Elymus riparius. I also found Miscellaneous_factions_of_Command_&_Conquer#Tiberian_lifeforms, but it might contain nothing you don't know already. 83.79.154.143 11:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The exobotanist responsible for this naming is not following the recommendation that the name conform to the Latin grammar requirement of gender agreement. Tiberium is clearly neuter, but riparius is masculine. It should have been Tiberium riparium (as in Leptodictyum riparium). With a female genus name you get riparia (as in Justicia riparia). The usual meaning, also in Latin, is: found on, or frequenting, river banks. --Lambiam ^Talk 15:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic translation

What does the following mean: العربية: دخولك هنا غير مسجل. إن عنوان الأيبي الخاص بك سيتم إدراجه ضمن تاريخ الصفحة مما قد يضر

It's from the image description of Commons:Image:4 stars.svg - A cursory online translation gives a translation (although rather patchy) which doesn't seem to be related to the image, instead talking about recorders and "completing his inclusion"; is this multilingual vandalism (the image does seem to be oddly prone to vandalism), or just a perfectly normal image description corrupted by a bad translation? Laïka 19:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google Translate gave me "Arab : Sign here unregistered. The title of your Alaibi will be incorporated into the history page, which may be detrimental". I bet it's the standard "You're not logged on; your IP address will be recorded in the page history" message, and have therefore removed it. —An gr 20:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm right. I just logged out of Commons and then hit Edit, and the warning came up in several languages, including this in Arabic: العربية: دخولك هنا غير مسجل. إن عنوان الأيبي الخاص بك سيتم إدراجه ضمن تاريخ الصفحة مما قد يضر بخصوصيتك Only the last word was missing in the version on the image description page. —An gr 20:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Arabic: your entry here is not registered (permitted?). Your IP address will be incorporated into the history page..." A mixture of what I and the machine came up with. Both very imperfect... Drmaik 20:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks. Well, I'm not using that translator again: I got "The Arab: Entering your here other than recorder. Indeed address [aal'ayby] special bey will be complete his inclusion within date of the page of which already [yD]"! Smurrayinchester 21:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

copyedit

HI. What's the name for when an article contains a significant amount of text copied word from word from a manual or press release? - I thought such things were called copy edits but looking at that article has revealed to me I was misinformed. Thanks.87.102.89.96 20:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have thought that the normal word for it was Plagiarism. You may be thinking of copy vio, which is short for "Copyright Violation". Laïka 21:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plagiarism is pretending that you wrote it. Copyright violation is copying it when you don't have permission to. They are two different concepts, although of course a single action may be both. If you copy something that is in the public domain (no copyright), such as a US government document or a sufficiently old book, that might be plagiarism but it is not copyright violation. If you say "Isaac Asimov wrote this essay" and copy the entire content of the essay, that is copyright violation but it is not plagiarism.

Wikipedia content is supposed to be free of copyright violation, but nothing requires the person who posts it to be the author, so the concept of plagiarism generally does not apply here. People are supposed to identify their sources, but failing to do so does not constitute plagiarism. --Anonymous, June 14, 00:37 (UTC).

June 14

Gramatically Correct

Media:Example.ogg

Our organization recently agreed to accept males as well as females as members. We need to rewrite our procedures to be appropriate for either gender. How do I write the following sentences to be grammatically correct when referring to male or female? What word do I use where the (????) are?

Example: The "Outstanding member of the year" shall be chaired by the Junior Past President. (????) shall receive names of the "Outstanding ESA Members of the Year" from chapters in good standing.

Example: The "Junior Past President shall be a member of the Executive Board, responsible for obtaining new rosters from each chapter in good standing postmarked by May 15; be chairman for the program "Outstanding ESA Member of the Year"; and be in charge of the Disaster Fund. (????) shall record the outstanding events of ???? year as President by inserting a page in the "History of Indiana State Council of Epsilon Sigma Alpha" book.

Thanks a lot. 66.52.142.3 01:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]