Talk:List of conflicts in Ireland

Thanks to those who started this page, great idea. What I am concentrating on are 'obscure' or forgotten battles from the years Anno Mundi, the early centuries Anno Domini, and from there up to the medieval/early modern era. Also on battles of the War of Independence and Civil War. I will also include sacks and seiges of various towns, settlements and citys. Wish me luck, because even listing them will take some time! Fergananim.

Medieval Vs. Early Modern

Good work on all those medieval battles how did you discover them all?. Couple of questions though, why have the Nine Years War and Dsmond rebellion been moved to the medieval section? They took place in the lat 1500s after all. Also, I 'm not sure its a good idea to give links to every tiny skirmish in the war of independence. You can justify including the ambushes at Kilmicheal and Tourmackeady because they were quite a lot of troops involved, but Beal na Blath for example, an incident where a few shots were fired and one person was killed, albeit a very important one, doesn't really qualify as a battle I don't think. Jdorney

Dia duit, J. Good points. First of all, you are right, and I am wrong, on the heading of medieval. I was trying to figure it out in my own mind, when did the medieval era end and early modern begin; I saved that version without resolving the matter. So I'd very much welcome ideas from other folk, yourself included, as to when we should draw the line.

Provisionally, I would place Knockdoe as first under the heading Early Modern. Would you agree with that?

My sources for all the AM era battles were drawn exclusivly from the Four Masters. I am very much aware how open to question some of the historical dates are, but my view is that I am only putting these up as a starting-point; by all means let others come and bash about all aspects of the articles. Via this and consensus, we can arrive at a point where we have world-class articles.

Same rationle applys to the likes of Kilmichael and Beal na Blath. I simply want to put them there, get people interested in them, and then we can collectivly suss out what catagorys they should be placed in.

I see where you are coming from on Beal na Blath, as Collins was the only fatality (though not the only casualty). Again, this is why I put up articles in the first place, to let people see them, argue the pros and cons, because I am uneasy with allowing just one person (myself) deciede matters. I very much welcome opposing views such as yours, because I may very well be hopelessly wrong (I was on many occasions according to an ex-girlfriend!).

Hope that helps. Fergananim

J, I'm going to push back the heading of medieval battles a few centuries. I looked up the origin of the word and its generally termed as started with the end of the Roman Empire in the fifth centuary. This ties in nicely with the begining of the Irish historic period in 431, so, if its okay with you, that's where it will begin. Fergananim.

Standardisation of Names, Places

Folks, one that that is still holding me off creating some stubs or full articles for some of the battles is trying to fix a standard spelling for the names of the battles, as well as those who fought them. Has anyone any thoughts on this? Fergananim

Yeah fair enough. The early modern period is usually put at about 1500, but like most thematic historical dates, its a pretty random cut off point. Some people will tell you that the medieval era is not about time but about the state of society - eg lords with their own armies, feudal estates, relatively weak monarchs etc. By this reckoning 16th century Ireland was certainly medieval. But I'd stil start with Knockdoe though, just because the 1500s are usually seen to be part of the renaissance or early modern rather than the mdeieval period in European history. As far as the war of independence/civil war is concerned, maybe it would be better to put in an article about guerrilla warfare in Ireland than have one for every skirmish. I see your point about raising awareness of the period though. From a military point of view, only Easter 1916 would really be big enough to call a battle in strict terms. However, I reckon exceptions could be made for the larger actions, like Tourmackeady, where I think the British used over 600 troops and armoured cars and aeroplanes, the taking of the Customs House, the fighting in Dublin during the civil war, which also used a lot of troops and heavy weaponry. There was also some heavy fighting in co Limerick in the Civil war, along what the anti-treaty side called the Munster line. Maybe articles on these would be appropriate. Jdorney

Raising awareness of all these is pretty much the ultimate object from my point of view. I totally agree that some would be better described as skirmishes or not even listed under the overall heading at all. That's why I was to get more opinions than just my own.

As for the war of independece/civil war, I think your suggestion is excellent. That way, we can still make lists of actual battles - there were actually quite a few similar to Tourmackeady - but have somewhere to include skirmishes, if only as stubs.

Just shows you how much actual work goes into this stuff!

If you take a look at the new edit, I have added a few more post-1923 battles, almost all of which occoured in Northern Ireland. Some were genuine battles (The Bogside, Short Strand), others certainly involved a great deal of gunfire and loss of life (Derrada, Loughgall) yet calling them a battle might be a bit much. I'm unsure about Ardoyne, and 90% against including Bloody Sunday because it was not a battle but an attack against unarmed civillians. Its all a matter of classification again.

Keeping in mind what you say, I will try in future to restrain my lists to truely significant battles, even if obscure. Moin Dar Lotha is one of great significance that I want to write up.

Sub-Sections

As anyone can see from my latest edit, this entire section is becoming far too large. How about creating sub-sections? Fergananim

Yeah, I think you shaould have a different section for all the pre-historic battles that may or may not have actually happened. I t doesn't make sense that hthey dwarf the rest of the article Jdorney

Would you mind doing those sub-sections, J? I'm afraid I'll make a balls-up if I try! But if you would prefer me to get all the blame, I'll bash away at it! Fergananim

Definition of a Battle

Here's my suggestion: An armed confrontation, with either significant loss of life and/or significant cultural and/or political repersussions. Any takers? Fergananim

Well, I would suggest that in purely military terms, a battle is a large engagement, with at least over 1000 combatants on either side and significant casualties. So most incidents from the 20th centry just don't qualify. Eg the Battle of the Bogside was a battle only in a rhetorical sense. It was really an extended period of civil unrest. Maybe there could be a single link to all the ambushes and skirmishes of the war of independence, civil war and troubles respectively. Taking Loughall as an example, there were eight IRA men involved, all of whom were killed and maybe 20 or so British RUC personell, none of whom were hit. If we were to list all the incidents like this from the major wars in Ireland, like the ones in the 16th and 17th centuries, this would be the longest article in wikipedia. in a similar way, the listing of all the battles mentioned in the four masters, many of which werre probably mythological, seems completely disproportionate to their importance. I'm going to make an edit and tell me what you think. Jdorney

VAST improvment! Fair play to ye! Also, I think your defintion of a battle - especially from a numerical point of view - is spot-on, so I'll try to further refine any further battles I list with all this in mind.

As reguard the pre-historic battles, I see where you are coming from. However, I still feel we should include ones that fall under our guidelines because our ancestors percieved them as important. And 'mythological' or not, at the very least they tell us something of what our ancestors considered Irish history. Fergananim

Certainly, and I think the pre-historic batles page should link to the irish mythology pages eg the leabhar gabhalla (sp?) etc. Incidentally, archeologists are now starting to think the Gaelic foundation myths like the Milesian invasion from Spain hae a lot more truth to them than previously thought, making the mythological record veery important. And also, as you rightly say Irish people believed them to be literally ture, right up to the 17th or 18th centuries. Jdorney

Only up to the 18th centuary? Longer than that, if you read the likes of O'Donovan (d.1861), MacNeill (d.1945)! Just goes to show we should listen to our elders ... And what you say is true; the results of mt and Y DNA testing over the past six years has being astounding. Hey, I feel an idea for a new article stirring! Anyways, if you have'nt already read it, check out "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and maritime Heritage" by Bob Quinn. I've being tramatising people for years by loudly proclaiming that we Irish are NOT Celts, so its great to hear such heresy making its way into common knowledge. Especially over a few beers. Fergananim

Not Celts! Yeah a real hornet's nest there. I'm more of an early modern man myself, but i believe the archeologists are stillsplit about the celts thing Jdorney

Nomenclature

Can we simply list them as Dysart O'Dea, Benburb, Kinsale, Vinegar Hill, instead of calling them 'battle of ...'? We could also refer to certain of them as First, Second, Third Battles of. There is precedent for this. Also, use more terms such as sack, seige, as this will save us from Fourth, Fifths and Sixths! Fergananim

No, I think the wiki way is have "battle of" there for a battle article to distinguish it from an article about the place. Sacks, Sieges etc are all welcome. Incidentally I really think there should be an article about the Bruce Wars and the battle of Faughart. Likewise on 1798, where thus far there are no military articles at all. Jdorney