Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25

The MiG-25 was capable of exceptional performance, including a maximum speed of Mach 3.2 and a ceiling of 90,000 ft (27,000 m). This should correctly say Mach 3.0. I am not completely certain of it, but the reconnaissance version of the mig 25 should have been capable of mach3 (clean). Yes, the engines can produce enough thrust to get you to 3.2, but when damage occurs to the plane, then you're not flying anymore if your aircraft may not make it back. --K... 02:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

My friend is a former Soviet Union Air Defence officer. His task was to direct MiG-25 th which were intercepring SR-71, which were flying north of the Cola Peninsula, around Novaya Zemlya (a nuclear test place).

When directly asked, he said he had no big problems putting the Foxbat on the tail of Blackbird. A bit tricky, of course, but not impossible at all.

Soviet interceptors relied much on the vectoring from the ground. The own radar of the MiG-25 was to be used only on the very final stage of intercept. -Author?

Really? The same Soviet Air Force that shot down a Korean Air 747 (huge and hard to misidentify with nav lights on) "intercepted" SR-71s, but never bothered to shoot one down, either to recover the wreck, or make a point about illegal violation of its airspace? Hard to believe. -Randall

SR-71s never violated Soviet airspace, at least there is no proof. So the Soviets did not need to shoot it down, but to show that they can.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Mistakes happen in any airforce. Recently, during Operation Iraqi freedom, several coalition aircraft were engaged, and one was even shot down, by friendly anti-aircraft defenses. Just a few days ago a National Guard F-16 accidently strafed an elementary school in New Jersey. Yet I don't think anyone entertains the illusion that the USAF is a completely incompetant organization.-Author?

well, not completely, no... (only joking)-Author?

Yes, mistakes happen, e.g., the US shootdown of an Iranian airliner, or words like "incompetant" (sic). The point was, PVO within their rights routinely shot down airspace violators when they could. Even a Mach 2 target is very hard to intercept if it does not cooperate by flying directly toward you. PVO aircraft before Su-27 were limited by short ranges, and training and doctrine emphasizing GDI point intercept of bombers.

Soviet fighers (and some personnel?) performed capably in Vietnam and Korea, both long conflicts allowing air superiority tactics and skills to be refined and developed.

Cold war intercept doctrine hurt the US too. Except for brief use of F-104 and F-5, USAF did not field an air superiority fighter between the F-86 and F-15. The F-106 could have been one with other missiles, but was bought only by ADC not TAC. -Randall rnicameron@yahoo.com

Mig-25 on the tail of a SR-71?

I find that hard to believe. The Mig-25 could only safely go Mach 2.8 without burning out the engines. It could go Mach 3-3.2 if they didn't mind scrapping the engines in mid-flight. The SR-71 was cleared to cruise at Mach 3, and could go Mach 3.3 if the situation required. To sum it up, if the SR-71 in cruise detected a Mig-25 trying feverishly to catch it, it would accelerate beyond the capabilities of the Mig-25.

It wouldn't want to chase it. The Mig-25s were on 24/7 alert, and took off as soon as SR-71s would come to the Soviet borders. They would fly at mach 3 initially, to scare off the blackbird(s) and return to base at lower speeds. The engines of the foxbat didn't have such a long lifespan, so it didn't matter if they were damaged during the intercepting. Starcraftmazter 00:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

A MiG-25 was spotted at Mach 3.2 over Israel in 1970s by an US radar post. The event was widely publicized. Yes, M>2.5 will lead to engine malfunction and airframe cracks. But technically MiG-25 was able to intercept a SR-71 providing proper vectoring from ground. On the other hand, I've never seen a credible source publication of any real attempt of such an intercept. Moreover, I've never heared about SR-71 flights over the Soviet North. --jno 07:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The SR-71 missions are pretty much a big unknown and I suspect will remain so for a very long time. USAF's Air Defense Command much slower fighters (F-101, F-102, F-106, F-4) routinely practiced intercepts against SR-71s. They would perform zoom climbs to 80-90,000 ft and attempt to get a firing solution during the brief moments at the top of the parabola. A Mach 3 tail chase is extremely unlikely, would take a stupidly long time given the small speed difference, and would span half the globe. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 08:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Intercept would still be very hard, because you have to get in front. Any course change creates a big problem, even though F-101 and -106 have much longer ranges than MiG-25. Multiple aircraft spaced over a broad front might succeed. No A-12 or SR-71 was lost to hostile action. BTW, F-4 was a TAC bird, not ADC. -Randall

Designed to intercept A-12s?

I've read that OKB documents released after the break up of the USSR indicated that the Mig-25 was made to intercept Lockheed A-12 spyplanes, something that it was perfectly capable of as opposed to that supersonic bomber like western sources have stated. Maybe this should be fixed in the article?

--FarQPwnsJoo 05:00, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

XB-70

It is very cool to realize that an entire string of aircraft were created in response to a research project. The XB-70 spawned the MiG-25, which then spawned the F-15 etc. Nonetheless, one of the more interesting possibilities of this string of aircraft would have been if XB-70's were escorted by Phoenix Missile armed A-12's being intercepted by MiG-25's.

Flying Restraunt

Ive heard this tale about Russian groundcrew drinking the alcohol from the MiG-25's radar but Ive read from Russian sources that this is just an urban myth. The alcohol is actually poisonous to humans. DarthJesus 03:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, I'm not a human, but I'm a russian and I'm capable to drink alcohol. I'm also capable to drink ethanol (ethil spirit, alcohol) mixed with glycerin, wich was used in many (not only MiG-25) anti-ice equipment. Local nickname of MiG-25 was not "restoran", but "gastronom" (grocer's shop). --jno 07:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've heard similar stories about Russian tank crews using vodka for anti-freeze in their tanks (and then the Finns take their anti-freeze, and make a whole bunch of Molotov cocktails to have some real fun with :P), I imagine both stories would be true. 170.215.105.201 03:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like mith: (1) too much vodka needed to fill the tank's cooler, (2) no need in anti-freeze in tank engines, (3) "Molotov cocktails" contains no alcohol. --jno 10:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering about the service ceiling was it 60,000 Ft or 90,000 as written here http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=292192&sid=NAT

Service ceiling has a specific definition. I'm sure MiG-25 could not sustain the rate of climb at 90,000 ft. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 02:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

ceiling

Well, test-pilot A.Fedotov have set a world record of altitude at 37650 meters on MiG-25 (specially prepared) in 1977. Today everyone may take himself at 25,000 meters on MiG-25 (trainer) "adventure" in Zhukovski. But the practical ceiling of serial MiG-25 was 20,700 with four R-40 missiles loaded, not 30km as the article stated. --jno 12:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, service ceiling (aka "practical ceiling") has a specific definition. It's not just how high you can go. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 08:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Specs

I have updated and verified the specs against a cited credible source. All changes must be accompanied by appropriate citations from credible sources or they will be reverted. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 17:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Combat Victory

"The MiG-25's acknowledged combat record by the West is one F/A-18 Hornet during the First Gulf War, when an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down a U.S. Navy F/A-18C on January 17, 1991, 29 nautical miles southeast of Baghdad. In that particular instance, the MiG was able to evade other attacking aircraft with impunity, due to its ability to make a high speed escape."

This alleged victory over a F/A-18 is a very unlikly scenario, firstly because a naval aircraft would not be so close to Bagdad, secoondly because at lower altitudes the F/A-18 is actually faster than the MiG-25, thirdly an Iraqi pilot is unlikly to have shot down a better trained American pilot in superior aircraft, and fourthly according to several reliable sorces the the MiG-25 has no combat victories and the F/A-18 is unbeaten. -Author?

No reason a MiG-25 could not shoot down an F/A-18 either with a BVR missile, or if it overtook at high speed from behind. -Randall

F-117A was not shot down in Yugoslavia just because it was a better aircraft driven by a better pilot from the best country and CNN didn't pay much attaintion to the event, while S-125 is an antient SAM under control of bad boys from ex-socialist country with controlled newspapers. And it was too far from the States. Good logic. --jno 08:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, two F-117s were shot down, and both were on CNN. I remember seeing civilians dancing on a wing, and wondering what horrid ailments they might get from toxic materials. The shootdowns and CSAR were also written up in Newsweek. -Randall

AFAIK, the second lost F-117A (due to fire of ZSU-23-4 in Iraq) is unconfirmed. --jno 14:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

ZSU-23-4 shooting down an F-117? Pure BS. The Shilka is a low-level gun system. The F-117 operated at altitudes beyond the range of the 23mm cannons. Wikiphyte 13:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, and here I am thinking we're talking about MiG-25s and F/A-18s! First of all, this quote above portrays the event as a definate fact, which it most certaintly is not. Until someone finds proof that the cause of the loss of the Hornet in question was in fact a MiG-25, I'm changing the statement in question to reflect the uncertainty of the situation. (USMA2010 04:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

No way. The best source would be quotes from official combat records of Iraq (to claim the victory) and the States (to confirm the loss), but Iraq data is in hands of the USA now... Is there any american here who can define the secrecy timeout for these data in the States? When the data will get unclassified, one can use american law (I dunno its exact name) to access them via a written request. --jno 09:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Both the DOD and McDonald Douglas claim that the US Forces suffered no air to air losses to Iraqi forces. Also except for an aborted F-16 raid, no non-stealth aircraft were used near Baghdad during the early part of the war. The US is willing to admit confirmed losses, they don't deny them. It's unconfirmed losses, or losses that were the result of black projects that are not admitted. PPGMD 12:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Nowaday I consider these statements as pure propaganda. We have to wait for the source documents become unclassified. Please note the story of soviet/american losses in Korean war: every korean aircraft was killed at least twice, while many US losses were turned into "non-combat", "technical", etc... I believe, Korean data were no better that time. I've seen something useful in 1990s only (~40 years after the war) in open sources. --jno 13:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Fog of war, happens all the time, during WWII it was alot worse. Either way, there is no source at all, and any claim is doubious since the US has been pretty open about it's losses in Operation Desert Storm, and there is no evidence what so ever about the shoot down. Besides if Saddam was able to shot it down, we would have seen the wreckage paraded across Iraqi TV along with the pilots. PPGMD 15:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, any "fallometric" counts (victories, losses, "bests", etc) are mostly meaningless for any kind of military device or activity happened after about 1970 wor the whole world and after 1990 for the Russia. --jno 08:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It is almost certain that the F-18 lost on January 17, 1991 was downed by a MiG-25. From what I read, information about this appeared in Aviation Week a few years ago. The incident is also mentioned here: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/01/14/gulf.war.pilot.01/index.html "Speicher, of Jacksonville, Florida, flew his F-18 Hornet off the carrier USS Saratoga on the opening night of the war in January 1991, and went down west of Baghdad. An Iraqi MiG-25 fighter apparently attacked him.

Another American pilot who saw the jet explode in the air reported that it was hit by an air-to-air missile and that he did not see Speicher eject."— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Probably in support of that aborted F-16 raid on Baghdad. Anyways the report that I have read from the DOD says he was downed by a SAM. Something that I highly doubt is a cover up, the Speicher case has always been surrounded with myth and rumors PPGMD 13:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

US military never covers things up? Nothing is covered up anyway. Initially, it was reported that it was a SAM, but now the likely reason is the MiG.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Likely to who? US Military reports, compiled and verified over and over again after the war but the downing of Speicher's F-18 at the hands of a SAM. We have one pilot who says it looks like an air to air missile, which isn't very definitive, considering that Saddam would have used the pilot of the Mig-25 as an effective propaganda tool, if it were true. PPGMD 19:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The data recordings were reexamined and supposedly there was a MiG-25 lock on detected by AWACS. This is from what other people described on forums, I don't have the articles about this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Huh? lock on detected by AWACS? AWACS aircraft isn't a long range RWR. A RC-135V might have detected it, but it's doubtful without a source. There are many rumors that surround a war, not all of them are true. PPGMD 12:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get that AWACS can't detect lock-ons? Again, it is not a rumor, but the mostly likely theory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

From the Fact File confirmed by a buddy of mine that flies in one. The E-3B's that were sent to ODS did not have the ESM/ELINT equipment that current E-3B's have (the upgrade program was started in 1994), even then it's capabilities are limited compared to the RC-135V. Irregardless, the E-3B even if it were one of the upgraded ones, would be hard pressed to get any useful signals out 250+ miles that would have been during ODS (they were prohibited from entering hostile airspace). Not even the E-3B's radar would be any good out to that range. Your theory doesn't fit the facts, and doesn't warrant mention in this article. PPGMD 21:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I told you I don't have the articles and what I know is from forum discussions. Read the 9th post here[1] by Avon. It is not my theory and if you do some search on the internet, you will find that the shoot down is almost an accepted fact.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

A internet fact is quite different from a real fact. There are quite a number on the internet that believe that 9/11 was entirely caused by the American government, among other wild theories. The facts he mentions don't line up, the E-3B didn't have ESM/ELINT equipment until their Block 30/35 upgrades, which didn't start until 1994, I don't believe the E-2C's have ESM/ELINT either, their airframes are too small, besides which the distances are way too large for it's equipment to detect it. Beyond that there are numerous descripancies that don't match up with real world usages of the radar systems. Beyond that a forum post is hardly considered a source for a Wikipedia article.PPGMD 14:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you read? He did not just make up that information, but got it from articles (like one from Aviation Week), which are based on information provided by the military. Do some research about this instead of labling it as a conspiracy theory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Some of the information is just plain false for example to repeat for the third time the E-3B and E-2 both did not have ESM/ELINT suites during ODS (ESM/ELINT suites would be required for AWACS to detect "lockon,") for the E-3B that came with the Block 30/35 upgrade which came in 1994, the E-2's are getting them with a current upgrade suite. Neither of which would likely be able to detect anything at the range that Baghdad would have been from likely patrol routes. Among other facts that I am not quite as sure because we are talking about Russian equipment, which I don't know quite as well. PPGMD 00:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, do some researching rather than trying to deny everything. I wish I had the actual articles for this to show you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

I know the facts about the E-3 and the E-2 two aircraft that your "source" claims detected a lockon, something that would have been impossible in 1991 before the ESM/ELINT packages were installed, on top of that, the way that the radar is claimed to be used is different from the abilities of other radar system produced at the time, so unless the aircraft had a very modern radar system, it makes very little sense. I have done the research on aircraft system, not on your claim because it's an rumor. As far as I am concerned unless you find reliable sources this discussion is closed. PPGMD 14:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Got any sources for your E-2/3 facts? If you want to continue to be stubborn and call it my rumor, do so, but it just makes you look bad. I told you that it comes from a reliable source - Aviation Week and is based on information acquired from the military.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

FAS and Globalsecurity.org cover the block 30/35 upgrades on the E-3 you can check there. The Extend Sentry program, the name of the Block 30/35 upgrade program, started in 1994 (note ODS was in 1991). Also the block 30/35 upgrades are also covered extensively in Jane's All the World's Aircraft, if you live near a library that stocks that book (I purchase the last year's edition myself since I don't live near such a library). The E-2 has no such capability, at least not in the airframes in US Navy inventory then. I remember reading that the E-2's were scheduled to get an ESM suite, but I can find no mention of that program from any of my sources. You can check all 3 sources for that. I dismiss your theory because one fact from your "source" is outright false and a couple of the other facts is implausible, though I don't know Russian system to say it's outright false. Also if this was published in Aviation Week at least one other person would pipe up and say "Oh yeah I read that too." Finally Aviation Week has in the past published some outrageous stuff that borders on conspiracy theory talk, personally I would never use it as a source without some sort of back up, that being said I am still a subscriber because it's the best place to find up to date news on the aviation industry.PPGMD 03:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to discredit the source by clinging to a minor detail that you believe to be false. If you are an Aviation Week subscriber, don’t you have access to their old articles? Go check it for yourself if you are so skeptical.

Stop being silly and continuingly call it my theory. I am not the one that put this in the article here in the first place. The kill has been discussed on many aviation forums. It is listed as a confirmed kill here - [2], even though ACIG is pro-Western and it takes a lot for a kill made by a non-Western aircraft to be listed as confirmed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Actually I did search for it, found nothing. Until I see source documents it's a theory to me, so far other then a couple of posts in an internet forum with wild facts (of which I have proved one is without a doubt incorrect), and a single table that provides no source documents there is no source. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed unless you can present some hard evidence. PPGMD 01:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I will try to find exactly when the article appeared in Aviation Week.

I only posted the forum link because the guy read the article and was telling what it said. What about the CNN article? They would print rumors?— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

I found better sources:

"With the possible exception of one F/A-18 loss still under investigation, all Coalition losses were inflicted by ground-based air defenses (antiaircraft fire or SAMs)." [3] (Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Congress, p 180 - 1992)

"An Iraqi warplane shot down a Navy fighter jet in the Persian Gulf war, a senior Navy intelligence officer says, contradicting Pentagon claims that no American aircraft were lost in aerial combat in the 43-day war." [4] (NY Times, only a preview though - 1992)

"Postwar analysis suggests that LCDR Speicher's Hornet was downed by an Iraqi Air Force aircraft firing an air-to-air missile." [5] (Intelligence Community Assessment of the Lieutenant Commander Speicher Case, p 1 - 2001)

Is that enough hard evidence? The kill should be put back.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs)

Not really, you seem to miss the sentence above it, saying there is no conclusive evidence of how his aircraft was lost. PPGMD 21:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Read again: "No information during the Gulf war conclusively revealed how LCDR Speicher's aircraft was destroyed."

Stop reverting. How many sources do you need? Is the confirmation of Navy officers not enough for you? YMB29 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there is enough evidence to confirm the Iraqi single kill in 1991. First of all, the F-18 was flying at high altitude (29,000 feet) well beyond the range of any SAM system in service in Iraq at that time (18,000 feet). The other reason that left no doubts about the cause of this particular air loss is that the area where the wreckage was found is open desert, long away from any major strategic target, where the Iraqis deployed the bulk of their land air defences (SAMs and AAA). The only other possible cause for the crash of Speicher's plane could have been an air-to-air friendly kill, a case that had some support from Speicher's widow, but there is no basis at all to support this theory. DagosNavy 02:41, October 4 2006 (UTC)

I think there is enough evidence that he was shot down by a air to air missile, but there is not enough evidence that a Mig-25 shot him down. First look at the sources:

• CIA Document that simply says "analysis suggests that it was an air to air missile"
• A New York Times Op-ed piece which I don't have access to, but is written by a very very Left Wing Professor during an election year, using two Navy Officers that are unmentioned by any other primary source.
• A Book which goes into detail about other instances of Air Combat, but in this case uses the word "apparently" and sources to the New York Times Op-ed piece.

So in 15 years there are no primary source other then the CIA document, despite the amount of media, and Congressional attention that this case has been given. Thus there is no confirmed evidence that a MiG-25 shot the F-18 down, there is a possibility nothing more until there are more reliable secondary sources, or another primary source is found. Heck Dagos I think it's quite possible that it might have been fratricide, it might explain that complete dearth of primary sources, because there would have been some data in the Iraqi Air Force's archives that would have at least shed some light on this. Heck I have heard weirder during ODS F-111's CFIT'd for no reason at all, claiming to see a landing light on their tail, when their Wingmen saw nothing but empty airspace behind them. PPGMD 10:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"Analysis suggests that it was an air to air missile" is enough for it to be confirmed. A MiG-25 was the only aircraft in the area and there were no SAMs there too.

Are the words of a Navy commander who flew that night and saw the MiG before the shoot down and a naval intelligence officer who investigated this not considered primary or credible by you? The article was only opinionated about why was this air-to-air loss not admitted in the first place, not about whether it happened.

Here is what the naval intelligence captain says:

"We were pretty sure at the beginning. Then, by the end of the war, we were pretty much able to prove that [the attack] was the only logical explanation - other than his aircraft disintegrating."

Iraqi Air Force's archives? I read that much of them are destroyed. Anyway, the Iraqis did not even claim the kill probably because the pilot was not sure that he downed the F-18 or there was not enough confirmation for it before the US admitted it. YMB29 17:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

A New York Times Op-Ed from a Libral Professor, particularly during an Election Year, would not likely be considered an Reliable Source even in a political article. But if this professor was able to track down these two officers, why hasn't there been more from then in the last 15 years? PPGMD 19:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There was in other publication that I don't have access to. You think he made them up? You are getting desperate in trying to look for a way to deny this. YMB29 21:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite possibly yes. Op-Ed aren't exactly known for their reliability, nor peer review. PPGMD 14:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

What? It does not matter what section it was written in. You are getting desperate. The fact that it quotes two officers (names are Commander Michael Anderson and Captain Carlos Johnson) directly involved with this is enough. If the article is considered such an unreliable source, it would not be referenced in other respected publications.

You admit that it was an air to air kill but say that it did not have to be a MiG-25 that got it. Well there were no other Iraqi aircraft in the area and no other Iraqi aircraft were even suggested to have been near. YMB29 05:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Now if it mentions them by name you can use that as a starting point searching for another source that says that a Mig-25 (note it has to say it was a Mig-25 for it to be included in this article). The Op-Ed section is not as well sourced checked as other sections of the article, just about anyone can write a column for the Op-Ed section and it will see little editing before it is published. Wikipedia is about verifiable facts, I don't see any sources that verifys that a Mig-25 indeed shot the aircraft down, all the sources say that it was likely an air to air missle, but no source comes out right and say a Mig-25 shot the F-18 down. PPGMD 15:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Most sources, like the new ones I found below, say it was a MiG-25. YMB29

Hi both YMB29 and PPGMD. I think your exchanges are quite interesting, but I also think here there is a "no winner" situation about confirming or not the kill by a MiG-25. I see no reason to left the thing as a "may be" and left the reader to decide by himself. Also I have a question for YMB29: if you maintain in such assertive way the shot down was an air-to-air kill when there are, even if slim, some doubts, please tell me which is the cause that prevents me to include the purported name of the Iraqi pilot?. Thanks. DagosNavy 12:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

That website does not seem like a good source. YMB29

New sources:

NY Times Dec. 14, 1995; p A1 (not Op-Ed page) - "A U.S. Team Seeks Body of War Pilot" by Tim Weiner: Shortly after he [Speicher] entered Iraqi airspace, his plane disintegrated in midair. Navy intelligence were never sure why. They later concluded that he either had a freak midair collision with an Iraqi MiG-25 or that the enemy plane shot him out of the sky.

Aviation Week & Space Technology Jan. 22, 2001 (Vol. 154, No. 4); p 21 (Washington Outlook section) - "Not Hopeful": Senior military commanders who gathered here for the 10th anniversary of the 1990-91 Persian Gulf war are skeptical about the survival of Lt. Cdr. Michael Speicher, the Navy pilot who was shot down on the first night (Jan. 16, 1991) of attacks on Iraq. His F/A-18 crashed west of Baghdad after being attacked by a MiG-25.

YMB29 05:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing it to likely it's still not the confirmation level that we would have compared to other air to air kills. PPGMD 14:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

What other air to air kill? Like those in the F-15 article? Not only are they not referenced, most of them don't have confirmation from the other side. Maybe you should go scrutinize that article. This kill does not have to have confirmation from the other side since it is admitted by the losing side. Like I said before, it has more confirmation than most "confirmed" air to air kills. YMB29 18:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually I am working on dealing with references and sources on a number of aviation articles, the F-15 article is one of the ones on my to get to list. PPGMD 22:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The way that it is now fits the how verifiable the facts are. The only hard fact we have is that he was shot down by an air to air missile, anything else is not as verifiable. PPGMD 18:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

But it is also a fact that only a MiG-25 was known to be in the area. YMB29 20:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Results of American study

The text concerning this issue is effectively doubled, and should definitely be combined down into one version. I'd do it, but I don't know any technical details about the plane beyond what I've just read, and don't want to screw it up. Stilist 03:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Combine what's there. Someone will copyedit if need be. Thanks for doing that! - Emt147 ^Burninate! 04:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Somebody will probably want to check over the changes for accuracy, particularly the item about the craft's maximum acceleration. There were slight differences in nearly all the numbers for that point, mostly because one was rounded whilst the other was not. Stilist 18:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a read-through tonight but a quick skim looks great. Nicely done! - Emt147 ^Burninate! 23:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

At one time someone blanked that whole part, it may have been a vandal, but it was all restored. LWF 00:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

F-15 kills by Syrian air force? a farce

Additionally, some F-15 kills have been claimed by the Syrian Air Force, however, most sources say that, to date, no F-15s have been shot down in air-to-air combat.

Can someone even give a source for this claim? No Israeli F-15 were shot down in battle ever, let alone, by Syrian MiG-25s. If there are no objections, I'll remove this wierd claim. Eranb 10:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Burden of proof is with the editor adding the information. Since no proof was given for a controversial claim, I have removed it. Thanks for catching that one! - Emt147 ^Burninate! 17:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Soviet and Syrian sources say that a MiG-25 shot down a F-15 on July 29, 1981 after that F-15 downed another MiG-25.

There were claims for victories over Iran F-14s during Iran-Iraq war (by MiG-25RB used as high speed bombers by Iraq?). Unverified, of cause. JFYI. --jno 09:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Good historical shot found.

Plz, check the Talk:Shuttle_Buran page. --jno 16:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

New edits and additions

I deleted some of the info. Ukraine, Armenia, Kazakhstan, & Turkmenistan no longer use the Mig-25.

I also added a Combat Section to this aritcle. All my info is from http://www.acig.org/ and global security.com.--216.52.73.254 20:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the Belarus section, they have not used Mig-25 in years (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/belarus/af-equipment.htm)

Bulgaria has not used the Mig-25 since 1992. It is even mentioned in this article. India stopped using their Mig-25 a few months ago.

Iraq has not used theirs since 2003 (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_138.shtml).

The USSR has not exsited since 1991.--216.52.73.254 12:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I listed the past and current users. The ones with parenthesis were the current users.

Citation Needed?

"The limited maneuverability of the Mig-25 has often been overstated by Western observers, as under the same high performance parameters, the SR-71 has even more restrictive stress limitations" Why does this require a citation? It seems firmly grounded in logic to me. It is the common practice of governments to overstate the abilities of their war machines even as they understate their enemy's. Not to mention the fact that it's well known that maneuvering options become more restricted the faster you go. -

I think, the max values of "available/exploitation overload" (i dunno the proper english term for "располагаемая/эксплуатационная перегрузка") will fix the discussion just because it's main limitation of maneurability at that speed. Max destructive for MiG-25 is about 12. BTW, there is a known example of "supermaneurability" demonstrated by MiG-25PU escorting the Buran at landing (180° turn by stall and spin at high alt). --jno 10:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

MiG-25 kills

Which part of "Cite your references" do people have trouble with? I will continue to revert all air-to-air victory claims until someone can cite a credible source that is not some website or forum.

Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources for your reading pleasure. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 04:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

How many times do I have to cite my references. I ALREADY have!

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_404.shtml

Here is some more:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml

How can we not cite a website. Everything on wikpedia is cited to a another website! Who are you to say which website is reliable? I agree that forums should not count.

I already told my source a few posts above. Do I need gun camera film!--216.52.73.254 20:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No, everything in good Wikipedia articles is from credible and verifiable sources. The website you listed sounds like a fanboy organization and it does not cite references for the specific claims ("various other journals and publications" is not a source I can look up to verify their claims). - Emt147 ^Burninate! 23:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. ACIG.org smacks of fanboy-ism. In the Iraqi victories since 67 database, I particularly like their qualifying footnote #4 for a couple Coalition losses in 1991:

...there is no basis for any of the known claims for downing of Coallition aircraft by IrAF interceptors in 1991. These entries will be kept in the list nevertheless as a designation of our position in regards to them, but they remain marked white. Additional Iraqi sources, however, are currently providing new – previously unpublished – information and details about various interceptions of US and Coallition aircraft. These are still under examination.

They have an actual position that contradicts the known facts. Doesn't that say all you need to know about the source? Even if they find some source at some point in time to support their position, they are admitting that all other credible sources contradict their position. And their footnote #6 for the F/A-18 kill in 1991 says basically, "despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously" and the aforemention footnote #4, ACIG, and ACIG alone, has evidence that contradicts all other known facts regarding the loss of the US Navy F/A-18.

The way I read the ACIG footnotes is an admission that if ACIG is 1 of 10 reputable sources for this information, ACIG would be the only one to claim these losses as MiG-25 kills. In my opinion, ACIG should only be used for further research but not as a cited reference. ACIG cites some publications as general sources for their data, but nothing specific. Therefore, in my opinion, these dubious kills should only be left in the article if the specific source can be cited, down to the page. That's just my opinion. Don't kill me if you don't like it. --JJLatWiki 22:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we have a source for the 'unclear results' of Mig-25 kills in the Iran-Iraq War--67.142.130.29 20:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well do you have clear information from a credible source? 198.105.45.121 14:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Space

So I saw elsewhere on the net that this thing can reach the edge of space! Is that not worthy of mention?? I notice that above, there's an argument about the ceiling of the aircraft, but the article only mentions the service ceiling and doesn't appear to state one word about the 30+ km number, although I can't imagine how that world record is not significant. 70.112.42.102 01:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The Kármán line is at 100,000 m (80,000 m is the US definition of space). The 37,500 m altitude record set by a MiG-25 prototype is nowhere close to that. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 02:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

MiG - Sukhoy

Was there any rivalry between the MiG and the Sukhoy people? How do the planes compare? From an experts standpoint how do the MiG and the Sukhoy handle differently?

cheers

Sukhoy

Isn't this plane related to the Avro Arrow

It looks just like the late 50's Canadian plane, and the History channel is running a piece that says key parts of the design were stolen by the KGB. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DavidNJ (talk • contribs) 23:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Please help

Maybe i am wrong, and it was another article, but i am conviced i ve read about this here: it was about the extremely strong on-board radar, that it had to be switched off before take off, becouse the microwave radiaton killed off the birds and small mammals nearby.

Is this true? I can't find it, and i need to cite this info.

Please if u know which russian fighter's article contains this thing, then tell me.

Or if it was a fairytale thus removed, plese let me know that too.

I am totally convinced that it was this very article i ve read about that, and know i am mad. Just looked thru all the MIG and SU articles, and no success.

Combat Service - Foxbats Over Dimona

The Six-Day War took place in 1967, two years before the Mig-25 went into service - is it really likely that the Russians would have risked flying not just one but two top-secret prototypes over Israel? Halmyre 12:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, according to the title and blurb for Ginor & Remez' book, they did. I haven't read it, so cannot critique it – but the "testimonials" include some impressive names. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Bomber?

The intro says the Foxbat's a bomber/recon plane as well as an interceptor. Now, recon makes some sense, but bomber? I'm aware that Soviet doctrine called for interceptors that could carry bombs, but with the MiG-25 that just seems like a waste. Plus, the rest of the article only mentioned air-air, no air-ground. 75.28.22.83 02:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)