Talk:Scouting and Guiding in Western Sahara

Kun Musta'idan x20

What's the point in duplicating exactly the same paragraph in 20 articles? Also, whoever cares what's the Arabic translation for "Be Prepared", will of course look in that article, and not in Sahraoui Scout Association.

And what's the point in providing the Arabic translation of the word "boyscout"? This is not a dictionary. --tyomitch 15:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A more constructive solution would be to move the paragraph to WOSM-Arab Region. The paragraph is equally relevant to all the members of the Region, and its article is already linked from all the members' articles. Is that good enough? --tyomitch 17:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree about putting it in the region article. Each association should have its own info. But I also agree a little variety would be good. I suggest leaving the info in the association articles and varying the text in each some.Rlevse 23:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Tyomitch, I truly appreciate your energy, but that suggestion is actually not "good enough". First, it goes against the format of the 160+ other national articles; second, the Scout Motto is not specific nor particularly pertainant to the Arab Scout Region; and third, the removals do not give the reader which languages or variants are used in that particular country. Please leave them as they are. Besides, there has been some discussion about dividing up or renaming Be Prepared, as it is too much a catchall to be of use to most. We very much appreciate your contributions, but unless you'd like to join the Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting, we'd prefer to let those with some connection to the topic be the arbiters of what is noteworthy in each article. Now, if you _do_ want to add the Arabic to the Scout articles for Palestine and Syria, we would really appreciate your contribution (and thanks for the ones you did already, that's a lot of work). In thanks, Chris 01:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

POV edits by user:juiced lemon

I am now treating your repeated edits as vandalism, since you can't be bothered to source the claims you make. The World Organization of the Scout Movement is a reputable source, and you have provided none of your own. Your politics don't belong in those articles. Chris 10:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Your retaliatory proposal for deletion just underscores your lack of ability to cite your own sources. Grow up. Chris 10:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

You have not sourced this article according to your reputable source. You could have cited the Bible as well. --Juiced lemon 10:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see you sourcing anything to back up your claims. While you're at it, learn English. Chris 10:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a nonsense demand. Nobody can prove that something doesn't exist. It belongs to you to prove that this association exists. --Juiced lemon 10:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Rebleguys2 is correct, a prod can be removed for any reason, including merely objecting to it. Both Juiced lemon and Chris need to provide verifiable sources for their claims and both also let the situation settle down or they both could be blocked for edit warring. Rlevse 11:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know that a prod could be removed for no reason. Notice that the title of this section is POV and personal attack. --Juiced lemon 12:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that right on the prod tag itself it says it can be removed "if you otherwise object to deletion of the article for any reason". Rlevse 13:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Look at how he managed to interpret it: [1]. I, for one, am thoroughly amused. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 13:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

TotallyDisputed

This article contains mainly stereotypical informations. Other informations cannot be attributed to reliable sources, in particular name and logo of the association, which could be fictitious, and the location of the scout activities. The article links this web page Movimiento Scout Católico, which contains informations regarding to a scout organization which doesn't concern this article. Any association can have any activity in any location on the Earth. --Juiced lemon 12:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a surprising similarity between 40px and an image in Scout Populaire Casa-Anfa (Anfa is an area in Casablanca, Morocco). --Juiced lemon 14:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The wording on the little banner is different, and all of those symbols are so universal, I think it's too much of a stretch to think we can take that as evidence to go either way. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 14:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Some facts

1. The Spanish Scouts hold contacts with the Moroccan Scoutisme Hassania Marocain, member of the Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain. [2], [3]
2. The UJSARIO has decided to start a scout movement, but it is unclear if any groups exist: [4], [5] The linked homepage of the UJSARIO is actually down. The newest version accessible via Wayback machine mentions a "Movimiento saharaui de Exploradores" which translates to "Sahraoui Scouting Movement" [6].
3. This movement is collaborating with the OJE, a Spanish Scout-like organization [7].
4. The embassy of the RASD in Algeria uses "Movimiento de Exploradores saharaui" and translates this as "Scouts" [8]. This seems to be the correct name of the movment (according to official sources as well as Google).

Hope this helps on discussing this article. --jergen 19:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your search. It confirms that there are scout activities:

* in Western Sahara, in connection with the Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain, an organization of Morocco

* in Algeria, in connection with UJSARIO, an organization of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic.

Grounds to current foreign relations between Algeria and Morocco, this article unlikely concerns both activities in Western Sahara and activities in Algeria. Therefore:

• case 1: the authors of the article don't know the location of the scout activities: deletion of the article
• case 2: the location of the scout activities is in Western Sahara: deletion of the article, the scout activities in Western Sahara may be mentioned in Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain
• case 3: the location of the scout activities is in Algeria: in this case, this change and this template change are necessary.

So, without answer from the authors during the next 48 hours, I'll request the deletion of this article. --Juiced lemon 18:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that a deletion is necessary - a rewrite would do it (your proposal #3 including some more corrections). My proposals:

• Rename this article to "Movimiento de Exploradores saharaui" (afaik there is no English translation), make the changes in proposal #3, add some input on the connections with French an Spanish Scouting and on the history of the organization (this is seemingly the heir of the pioneer movement within the UJSARIO).
• Correct the redirect Scouting in Western Sahara to Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain.
• Introduce an new redirect Scouting in the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic pointing to "Movimiento de Exploradores saharaui".

Comments? --jergen 06:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a logo with some Arabic writing in the article. That could be a hint to determine the subject of the article. In cases 1 and 2, I should prefer a new page (not a renaming) for "Movimiento de Exploradores saharaui". --Juiced lemon 08:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Working on sourcing at present-badge and information were provided to my be participants involved, just a matter of getting the sourcing lined up. Western Sahara is a separate location from Morocco, and the status is disputed. This shouldn't redirect anywhere else, as there are Scouts on the land area of Western Sahara. If warranted, I would support a rename. Chris 21:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, you don't understand the problem (or you act as you don't). Therefore, I have requested the deletion of the article. --Juiced lemon 11:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

My two cents Since the SADR controls part of Western Sahara, making Scouting in Western Sahara redirect to Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain would be POV.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Koavf (talk • contribs)

I see. You consider that the SADR could employ Sahrawi kids to clear mine fields as scout activities. If the redirection of Scouting in Western Sahara is a problem, it only means that we don't need this page. --Juiced lemon 15:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What? I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• This reaction means nothing, simply nothing. wikima 19:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Meaningless? So was yours, Wikima. Why are you stalking me on these talk pages? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Sahraoui Scout Association → Scouting in Western Sahara — over the course of research to source this article, several editors have discovered multiple groups and organizations serving the same purpose, none with international recognition, so this is a more inclusive name —Chris 19:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support Might as well make this an overview; this particular organization will probably remain a stub for the foreseeable future. If sometime, somehow there is enough information to flesh it out into a full article, it can be expanded from there. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support per above and I think it'd make it less volatile.Rlevse 19:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• Immediate Delete! - Everyone can create unsourced trash. Wikipedia does not need it - wikima 20:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support and, per Justin, create separate article when enough info is present. —Anas ^talk? 21:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments: