Talk:Catholic (term)

I have tried to improve this page but it still does not read fluently --BozMo 07:28, 16 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I do not particularly like the "rightly or wrongly" in the last paragraph. It goes without saying the every one who believes something believes it "rightly or wrongly and inclusion for this particular case looks POV --(talk to)BozMo 10:36, 16 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Fair article (in muddy waters). Good. But I find the last paragraph ("Many Protestant..." -till- "The Orthodox churches of course, agree. ") a little misleading: It seems to imply that Roman Catholics believe that the Pope is the head of the universal Body of Christ; they (we) don't. The Church (in its most profound/mystical sense) is a Body; in that sense, the Head is just Christ. The pope is the head of the bishops, and hence the head of the Church as institution (divine institution, granted). The paragraphs seems to echo some anti-catholic prejudices and attacks eg. http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/hoc.htm which purposedly confounds the two analogical -but different- uses of the term 'head'. The page above indeed links to out of context prases from CV 2; but if one reads the entire page http://www.cin.org/v2church.html one can find 'The Head of this Body is Christ ...He is the head of the Body which is the Church.'--Leonbloy 17:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

However, the quotes, taken from the documents of Vatican I and Vatican II, clearly speak for themselves on the matter:

"… the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the visible Head of the whole Church …" Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter III, § 18

"Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant... let him be anathema." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 1, § 6

"… the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 3, § 1

"The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 4, § 2

Merge

This should be merged w Catholicism. Sam [Spade] 06:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

For future reference, if/when this is ever discussed, note incipient comment on Talk:Catholicism#Organization. I would say that it is basically the case that since "c/Catholic" and "Catholicism" are words with separate entries in dictionaries, and do not entirely overlap in scope, it is worthwhile to have separate entries here as well. In particular, Catholicism is the term for the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church, whereas "catholic" has a couple of other uses. Also, as a matter of etymology and history, the reasons for particular uses of the word "c/Catholic" as a word merit separate coverage to the extent that they are not covered elsewhere. Trc | [msg] 11:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic, Catholicism and Roman Catholic Church are separate ideas that can stand alone as separate articles. The problem we find is that these articles have overlapping information. The solution is not to merge them but to rewrite the articles correctly so that pertinent information is found in the article it belongs to. --Gerald Farinas 04:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we're agreed that the articles might need work but a merge is wrong... removing tag... any huge obhection and you can re-add it I'm sure gren 12:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a weak and flawed article. It should IMHO be deleted another and whatever accurate information there is here (and I don't think it is much) transferred to the far superior Catholicism article. FearÉIREANN 21:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is worth keeping. "Catholic" and "Catholicism" are two different concepts with some overlap but not enough to justify merging them into one article. --Colenso 18:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC) [reply]

I think the article is definitely worth keeping, but there are problems with it the way it is. It keeps rehashing what denominations call themselves so that it is confusing and thus seems somewhat circular or redundant in structure. Perhaps some references are needed and it could be more factual and less contentious? JMK

Protestants who do not consider themselves catholic?

"Some Protestant Christian Churches, avoid using the term completely." I can't think of one Protestant denomination that would disavow this label. Does anyone know of one? --Doc Glasgow 00:29, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Afrikaner Calvinism is one example. --Colenso 19:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And the Free Presbyterian Church. And most small evangelical groups, etc. Many born again Christian groups believe that they and they alone are the real church of Christ and everyone else isn't. In no way can that view be interpreted as catholic (ie, universal). It is mainstream christian groups, specifically those who believe in the apostolic succession of bishops, who believe that there is a broad catholic/universal church of Christians, subdivided into denominations. Fundamentalist protestantism holds different views. Some accept the 'broad church with divisions' idea. Others believe that they alone are the successors to the original church and that no-one else is really christian at all. Some believe that there were moments before them when isolated others (Luther, Calvin, etc) appeared with true christian beliefs, only for their 'churches' to lose touch with true christianity, with christianity eventually disappearing until they appeared in modern times. FearÉIREANNFile:Ireland flag large.png\^(talk) 16:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need to keep this article - revised a bit - since, as others have already stated, most Christians do consider themselves catholic in the purest sense of the term (i.e., part of the universal Christian Church; part of Christendom). That's not very surprising, is it? KHM03 15:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]