Talk:Drum and bugle corps (modern)

This expanded DCI article is my solution to the clash between "classic" and "modern" drum corps that has reared its ugly head. As I explained in the Talk:Drum and bugle corps discussion, I intend on using this article for information about "modern" drum corps, rather than creating "Drum and bugle corps (modern)" and "Drum and bugle corps (classic)" articles. Hopefully this will appease the drum corps "purists" who think DCI isn't really drum corps. The purists can keep the Drum and bugle corps article, as long as prominent links to the DCI and DCA articles remain at the top. And hopefully no one thinks that DCI really needs an article expressly for DCI itself without any info about the corps and activity it governs. Trying to separate them is fruitless, in my opinion.

Lazytiger 02:30, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reorganization of articles

The discussion page on the Drum and bugle corps article is getting pretty long, so I figured I'd post to this discussion instead.

I was wondering what the big differences (if any) are between DCI and the other associations around the world. I think I might be trying to cover too much ground with the DCI article, but the one nice thing about it is that the activity and the rules and particularities of DCI can be discussed all in one place. I assume that the Drum and bugle corps (modern) article will be based on the DCI article, so what generalities or differentiations will have to be made in order to cover drum corps around the world?

Also, one of the reasons I was against the (modern) and (classic) articles is simply because I don't like parenthetical words in titles. Are there any other wordings we could use to avoid the parentheses? "Modern drum and bugle corps"? Eh... I don't really like that either. I don't know... I guess the parentheses really aren't that big of a deal, but does anyone have any other ideas for the sake of argument?

Lazytiger 23:20, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

One of the DCI critics responds...

DCI and DCA are NOT drum & bugle corps - nor do they really advertise themselves as such amongst marching band people, other than using the name of classic/alumni drum & bugle corps traditional history and activity.

I recommend the drum and bugle corps page to any prospective parent and DCI or DCA corps member. You may well disagree, but you should also realize the war that rages between the two.

There are plenty of honest marching bands out there. There are far fewer genuine drum & bugle corps out there. But if you aren't getting the truth about both sides, my advice is to run very quickly away from people who are only interested in your money and in defrauding you - because their interests and careers depend upon it.

The only decent people in DCI and DCA are those who keep silent - and they are becoming far fewer all the time as time passes. The sooner the split comes between "field performance theater" and drum & bugle corps, the better.

-- Catherine Well-known in drum & bugle corps circles, for good and ill (depending on your politics). Who LazyTiger is, is anyone's guess - but it's obvious who he is approved by.

Boo hoo.

Catherine, no matter how much you despise DCI and think that it's not drum corps, DCI is never EVER going to NOT be called drum corps. This is a reality that you're just going to have to deal with. Most immediately, you're going to have to deal with the fact that there are two very different activities competing for the same Wikipedia article title. No matter how strongly you and I feel about our respective positions, neither of us exclusive rights to take over the drum and bugle corps article and discuss one version of drum corps.

Therefore, I don't see how there's any proper solution other than an equal disambiguation page pointing to a classic drum corps article and a modern drum corps article. As soon as that plan is enacted, I'll edit the modern page and you can edit the classic page if you wish. I won't touch the classic page and I would advise you not to touch the modern page.

Lazytiger 19:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC) (who am I? why don't you check my user page?)

Disambiguation

I have now disambiguated the articles. I deliberately chose the parentheticals following the Wikipedia guide for "what to do in this sort of case", so it should work okay.

Catherine, your insinuation of fraud is potentially libelous. You might want to reconsider its continued presence on these pages.

Please see my comments here for a longer discussion.

MattJ 17:30, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

more about reorganization

Right now, the DCI and DCA articles are just redirects to the modern article. I think that they should have their own articles, based on the text that is now under the "circuits" section. We should try not to make this article too long, and I think it's already pushing the limit while some sections aren't even fleshed out yet.

Also, under the DCI section it says that DCI is the original organization on which all others are based. While it might be the organization on which others are based, it's not the original—DCA has been around longer than DCI. I imagine that the general lack of mention of DCA in the article (DCI alone seems to be used in lieu of mentioning both) along with that incorrect piece of history won't sit well with DCA people when this article comes to their attention.

Also, it would be nice to have a picture or two! Does anyone know how the rights work for that? Do you need the permission of the corps, the circuit, the photographer (if taken by a professional)?

Lazytiger 14:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Potential rewrite of the Visuals section

I was looking through the visual performance section and was unsatisfied with it, so I drew up some stuff to consider for inclusion. Feedback is welcome, and criticism likewise appreciated. Please pardon the size.

Visual Program

Guard The guard is a crucial part of a corps' visual program. The athletic and theatrical abilities of guard members are above and beyond any similar activity. In addition to uniforms that are custom-made for each season, members use flags, rifles, and sabers to create visual effects that enhance the show, as well as dance to great effect. The Santa Clara Vanguard may unofficially have the most memorable guard effect, with their performance of the "Bottle Dance" from Fiddler on the Roof.

Marching Technique There are a variety of marching styles used in the drum corps world. Since high-speed drill was pioneered by the Cadets in 1983, marching styles have been focused on smooth motion by performers regardless of tempo. The two most generic forms of marching, straight-leg and bent-knee, are characterized by the Cadets and the Cavaliers respectively, although almost every corps has its own unique style somewhat in the realm of one of those two categories. Traditional high-step marching has faded almost completely from drum corps, due to the visual speed and smoothness requirements, as well as desire for a uniform and consistent sound as unaffected by the lower torso as possible. Backwards movement or marching, as well as sideways marching, has also evolved. Turning in the direction of movement is rare, with the prevailing form today for backwards marching is up on the toes, with the heels off the ground (exceptions include The Cadets, who at slow tempos opt to roll back on the heel and pop the toe on the backwards march). Sideways movement is usually done the same style as forwards or backwards moves, incorporating a torso twist to keep the horn facing the front sideline.

Marching percussion deserve special mention in marching style, especially sideways maneuvers. Since the harness and equipment percussionists must carry makes it impossible for them to turn shoulders as the rest of the corps, drum lines have developed a "crab-step", with the legs moving out sideways and then crossing slightly, keeping one "leading" foot in front of the other "trailing" foot. This enables the marching percussion to move with relative ease while maintaining a front-facing position. Horn lines of drum corps have occasionally emulated the crab-step in their drill.

Drill Formations and Maneuvers The marching performed today on fields across the country is a far cry from the drill styles thirty years ago. In early competitons for DCI corps, drill usually began with the corps set up on the back sideline, from which they would take the field. Drill was almost entirely symmetrical, but in time gave way to asymmetrical drill forms.

Forms using lines and curves have long been used to create drill that is simple, yet powerful. The speed of the drill can create either a slow and flowing form or a series of quickly spinning bars to the viewer. Follow-the-leader forms frequently crop up, as do Perhaps the most famous maneuver using a line is the company front, with the corps in a line stretching across the field, usually parallel to the sideline, and moving in unison in the same direction. Another famous line-based maneuver that is sometimes said to have sparked the widespread use of asymmetric drill would be the "Z-Pull", pioneered by The Cadets in 1983 and frequently repeated and modified in many sucessive shows. The Z-Pull takes a form in the shape of the letter Z or S and expands it, giving the appearance it is being pulled from each end, until it ends as a basic line or curve.

Shapes and symbols have also been used to great effect by drum corps, with the most basic being geometric figures such as squares or blocks, triangles, circles, and other regular or irregular figures. The translation and rotation of these figures, especially at speed, creates interesting and exciting drill. The Cavaliers have performed several memorable drill moves in recent history, including a "rotating" double helix maneuver during their performance of The Planets, and the "diamond cutter" from 1999, a square "diamond" where groups of four members spun in boxes throughout the form. The Madison Scoutshave also used their corps symbol, the Fleur-de-lis, in drill, with a heartily enthusiastic response from fans in the audience.

Standing still might seem the simplest of drill moves, but for a drum corps even "standing still" is usually not completely stationary. In what is referred to as a "park and play", or sometimes "park and blow", "park and bark", or "park and wail", the corps holds position but members typically add their own leans, small steps, horn movements and pops, and other colorful flourishes.

looks good to me

Your contributions for the visual section look fine to me. Besides, this is the Wikipedia! Every article is always under revision!  ;) Just go ahead and post whatever content you have, and if there's something wrong with it or if it needs tweaking, it will be done. There's no need to submit it to the discussion page first.

Besides, despite the controversies that have come up, this isn't a particularly high-traffic page, at least in terms of editing (and I assume viewing as well). So don't be bashful about committing changes. Let's have 'em! This is the essence of Wikipedia!

Lazytiger 23:37, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dear Matt

Your allegations that my opinion that DCI and DCA employs fraud in their commercial hustles and exploitations of the hopes and dreams of kids (of all ages) is inherent in the unwillingness of y'all to let go of the term "drum & bugle corps" - particularly when DCI and DCA itself will flip-flop the term with "marching band" in its own marketing materials. Further, apologists for DCI and DCA attack drum & bugle corps as "outdated", "stuck-in-the-past" and even "dead" - when it is far from being so. And even if there were no drum and bugle corps left - nationally in America and internationally elsewhere, the genre would still exist, one day to be rebuilt again when those historically exploiting the genre - which include some very not-nice people (would you like to go there?) - find no more financial benefit in doing so.

And that is why who gets to own the term "drum & bugle corps" is so important to those of us who care more about drum & bugle corps than the financial exploitation thereof.

You can attempt to chill my criticism of DCIA, but I've been doing this for years now - and all the ones who stand by for you errand boys and girls have oft-stated that such comments aren't worth their time. And thus, you relative unknowns promulgating the idea that stopping critics like me is important is going to open the door to more public unmasking of y'all as those more interested in the business of using drum & bugle corps than those who are fighting for the existence of the genre on its own merits.

Will be back when I have more time and interest. RAMD has announced y'all, and that's an important tie-in - no doubt you and LazyTiger know nothing about that, eh?

-- Catherine

In response

Catherine,

Your first sentence doesn't make sense -- to me anyway. Accusing anyone of fraud without extremely solid evidence is potentially libellous, that's where I stand on that; end of story. Your position with regards to DCI or DCA and their methods of operation stands separately.

As far as attacking classic drum and bugle corps as "outdated", "stuck in the past" and "dead" -- nowhere have I done this. Although personally I find it unlikely that there will be a groundswell of support to renew interest in AL/VFW-based classic drum corps to the extent you foresee, I would be more than happy to see more "classic-style" corps again. They are, after all, an important part of the history and formation of modern drum corps.

Ownership of the term... well, both types of marching unit are "drum and bugle corps", like it or not. You aren't going to change that. Business interest? Catherine, you *marched* in DCI corps in the 70's. Are you seriously trying to tell me that all the staff on the several corps you marched with were in it for money, and not for either making music or giving young people a "life experience"? I disagree with your opinion, but I respect your right to hold it.

RAMD doesn't like you much. I can't say I read it particularly regularly; I didn't know that the Wikipedia article had been announced there. So, "no doubt" I know absolutely nothing about that. Rather than spend my time reading newsgroups I spend time being in contact with people in the activity and seeing what active marching units are doing -- and supporting them, rather than doing them down at every possible opportunity!

Best wishes,

MattJ 09:54, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Catherine vandalises the page

Real nice, Ms. Burr. Real nice. For someone who constantly attacks people for being "errand boys" you're acting pretty damn childish.

competitions section

I did some editing on the competitions section; I think it reads better now. But I'm still a little fuzzy on how the "minimum performance and lot" system works... MattJ, would you like to expand on that a bit? Thanks.

Lazytiger 14:50, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Minimum Performance and Lot

Well, I'm not sure *how* to expand it more than what's already there!

In more detail: Once the unit registration deadline has passed for the season, a number of units are randomly chosen to perform at the first two shows by the circuit organizer; the unit is therefore obliged to attend and perform at their allotted show, plus Finals at the end of the season. After the show allocated by lot as above, units must then perform in at least 'n' shows (often 3 or 4) within the season in addition to Finals (where the unit themselves chooses which shows to perform in).

MattJ 13:41, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

DrumCorpsWiki

Anyone who wants to help over at DrumCorpsWiki, your contributions there would be most appreciated. It's a Wiki entirely for drum corps which can allow much greater detail... spread the word...

Harlan Landes 17:59, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Content about specific corps?

Last night, an unregistered user (IP 63.193.245.244) added a couple paragraphs talking (giving a sales pitch, really) about the Blue Devils. Now, I love BD as much as the next guy, but I really think we ought to shy away from such talk about specific corps in this article. If this person wants to talk so much about BD, he or she is more than welcome to start a separate article for BD. However, I think the Drum Corps Wiki has that covered. Regardless, I don't think that this information belongs here. I was not a fan of the information about Star being in there either, but now it's really going in the wrong direction.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has an opinion about this before I deleted those sections out of the article.

Lazytiger 14:34, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I had planned to edit it out later this afternoon. While the USMCDB and Star are exceptions, BD entertainment is really no different from other groups that have formed out of corps such as the Colts, if I recall correctly. I would advise polishing it up and moving it to drumcorpswiki.

Yeah, that'd be fair to other corps. Those should really belong to Drum Corps Wiki.

--Mr Bound 17:46, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if these "professional" activities should be discussed in the article at all. They are not drum corps. (oh boy... am I opening a door for the "old school" fogies to kick down?) Indeed, they are run by organizations that also have ties to drum corps, but that's not a good enough reason to discuss them in the article. The Marine D&BC certainly deserves a place, but perhaps the title of the section should be changed to something other than "Professional Activities". Really, with that title, we're just asking for advertising. And here it comes. The paragraph about Star's activities since its departure from DCI amounts to special treatment of that corps. And apparently someone from BD felt they should be included, too. We all know where this is heading.

There should be some sort of generic passage about the existence of professional activities spawned from drum corps, but it's a fine line trying to talk about it without inciting people to do exactly what they're doing now - adding inappropriate detailed information about commercial activities.

I'll also add that we might be getting dangerously close to special treatment of corps in the "Visual Program" section, as well. In a general reference encyclopedia article, specific corps names and activities should not be used so liberally. That's what the Drum Corps Wiki should be for.

We should strive for an evenness of informational depth. When we suddenly start talking about specific accomplishments of corps in one section, it detracts from the overall generic, lay-person voicing that we should be going for. Know what's appropriate and where. If it's something that gives unfair attention to a specific corps, or is overly detailed, it probably shouldn't be in this article. Again, that's what the Drum Corps Wiki should be for.

Lazytiger 18:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You make some very good points. If I can manage it, later this evening, I might try and do a bit of POV pruning from the visual sections. I feel a touch responsible, since I did put most of that in.

As for the entire section about professional activities...I'm still not entirely certain where I stand on that. Perhaps Star and the USMDBC can have their own articles? I know that a ways back I was looking for information on Blast! and Blast! 2: Shockwave, and I was somewhat disappointed Wiki had nothing on it. Star's also done Cyberjam...perhaps every Star production could be consolidated into one article? I know that when I saw Blast! a couple of years ago I was impressed, and it did win a Tony award for choreography.

The USMDBC section is also done well, and I think that with the picture it would make a decent stand-alone article.

At the moment, I have some work to engage in, but I'll be back on this evening and I'll take a look at some of the things being discussed here.

--Mr Bound 22:49, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Not tonight, apparently. I'm beat. However, I did have another thought regarding individual corps mentions, originally for this article but more fitting in the DCI article: a table or some kind of mention on who has won the World Championship and how many times. Just wanted to make sure I didn't forget it.

--Mr Bound 03:18, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Star, and all of its reincarnations, are certainly worthy of their own article. I would definitely be happier if they weren't discussed in detail in the drum corps article, just as no other corps should be directly covered, either. Perhaps an article titled "Star of Indiana" should be created, and "Brass Theater", "Blast", and "Cyberjam" articles could be created as redirects to the Star article. I definitely think there should be exactly one article discussing everything related to Star. Although, I do have to wonder if such an article would be more appropriate in the Drum Corps Wiki. I'm concerned that we're going to have a lot of needless overlap between the Wikipedia and the Drum Corps Wiki. But on the other hand, one could certainly argue that that's not a big deal. If someone wants to maintain both, so be it.

I just looked at the Star article in the DC Wiki and saw that there's a template, but no information besides a few links. I'm going to delete the Star info from the drum corps article and put it into that article. I'll do the same for the BD info, too.

BTW, I noticed some unidentified person rewrote the Star paragraph. It's better. Good job, whoever you are.

Lazytiger 15:31, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I added the table I mentioned to the Drum Corps International article. My table formatting still seems clumsy, however. If you can take a look, I'd be glad to see anything aided.

--Mr Bound 02:19, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Catherine's "triumphant" return (copied from Talk:Drum and bugle corps (classic))

Regarding what some might call "vandalism" of the pages on April 17,

Catherine Burr appears to have once again returned to lend her extremely conservative views regarding the Drum and Bugle Corps activities to our work here. I'd like to remind Catherine that she is, of course, free to lend her opinions as long as she does so in a manner that fits a neutral point of view (Catherine, feel free to see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for more on this). Until then, I will continue to be reverting pretty much everything Catherine attempts to lend to these pages, as most of it is bias bordering on reactionary.

As to Catherine directly: welcome back! Things are much more lively with you here. Do you work for Ameritech, or what? All your IP edits have been from "Ameritech Electronic Commerce". --Mr Bound 00:56, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Is this the same "Catherine" from RAMD? Kurt Weber 02:23, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
  • If this individual from RAMD is, as I believe, a Ms. Catherine Burr who is an extremely conservative individual when it comes to the marching arts, a great proponent of classic drum and bugle corps and a great detractor when it comes to the governance of the modern activity, then yes, we are talking about the same person. I feel good about being civil enough to abide by the "no personal attacks" policy tonight. Questions? Comments? It doesn't look like she's been active since her most recent one or two day stint. Mr Bound 02:29, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Two articles?

Just out of curiosity, why are there two different drum corps articles? IMO it's kind of odd to have drum corps history suddenly stop in one and restart in another, and my instinct would be to merge them together, but I'm sure there's a reason for the seperation. --Frontierbrass 23:22, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)