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Bharata Ganarajya - Sanskrit or Hindi

The phrase "Bharata Ganarajya" has indisputable origins in Sanskrit which I will not explicate here because it is clarified by other users in the article |Bhārata Gaṇarājya. This is the proper transliteration according to the constitution. In such a case, the source language should be duly noted. Hindi may rightly contain the phrase but is neither the source nor the sole recipient.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yanamad (talk • contribs)

The words "Gana" and "Rajya" are clearly Sanskrit loanwords (in Hindi); however, Ganarajya is a Hindi neologism created in the 20th century as a word in the Hindi language. It may, at that time, have been incorporated into modern Sanskrit. If you are claiming that the word "Ganarajya" is actually a Sanskrit word with classical antecedents, I'd like to see a citation for it from a classical source. It us unlikely that the concept of Ganarajya (lit. the "Rule of the people") existed in ancient India. If so, where was it practised? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And I'd like to see a citation that the 'neologism' was 'created' in the Hindi language. Sarvagnya 05:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The word Ganarajya was in use even before Hindi was even born. See this Sanskrit-English dictionary. It says [ gaNarAjya ]3[ gaN'a-rAjya ] n. N. of an empire in the Deccan , xiv , 14. You may have to give proof that Ganarajya was coined after independence if you were to claim otherwise. Gnanapiti 06:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

UNESCO website says However, during ancient India, particularly at the time of Kutilya, Buddha and Ashoka, the emergence of local representatives (Gana) and their elected leaders (Ganapati) is noticed. They used to manage the Ganarajya (republics) mostly in the form of city republics. Subsequently, the "king" became more powerful and eroded the powers of Gana and started ruling through his nominees. Gnanapiti 06:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We are talking here about the modern meaning of the word. That meaning, as I mentioned above, is 20th century Hindi neologism. The word itself existed in classical India, but its meaning, which was the same as Ganapati, applied to a person, not a nation. See Britannica on Ancient India, "The political system in these states was either monarchical or a type of representative government that variously has been called republican or oligarchic. The fact that representation in these latter states' assemblies was limited to members of the ruling clan makes the term oligarchy, or even chiefdom, preferable... The oligarchies comprised either a single clan or a confederacy of clans. The elected chief or the president (ganapati, ganarajya) functioned with the assistance of a council of elders probably selected from the Ksatriya families." The UNESCO website you mention is an urban development site in which the Indian contributor, Dr. Kulwant Singh, Executive Director, Human Settlements Management Institute (HSMI), New Delhi, who is not a historian, has subtly changed the meaning of the word in order to claim classical Indian provenance for Greek concepts of "democracy" and "republic." As for the Sanskrit English dictionary, I couldn't access it; however, regardless, the meaning you quote is hardly the modern one. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

PS It could be a late 19th century Bengali neologism as well, since many "modern" words were incorporated into Hindi via Bengali, but my point is that it was not a classical Sanskrit word (in this modern meaning). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

No idea if the word গণরাজ্য (Ganarajya) was ever used in Bengali to mean republic (though it is a valid Bangla word / word-combination), but the actual and widely used word for Republic in Bengali is প্রজাতন্ত্র (Projatontro, Prajatantra). For example, Bangladesh's official name is গণপ্রজাতন্ত্রী বাংলাদেশ (Gonoprojatontri Bangladesh). --Ragib 07:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not the original meaning of the word Ganarajya has the same connotations as the modern day manifestation, the word origin rests securely within the Sanskrit language. Word meanings change over time contextually, but that cannot change their origin or history. User:Yanamad

Had it been a word that saw continuous use and evolved over time, it would be different. This particular word and its usage went extinct (along with the Sanskrit language). It was reborn (with the development of Hindi) with a revamped meaning, as a lexical calque of English words of Greek origin ("democracy" or "republic"). It is a neologism in Hindi formed with Sanskrit loanwords. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh i see. And where is the evidence that this is Hindi? We've been through enough of similar nonsense on Jana Gana Mana. Sarvagnya 06:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

User Sarvagyna seems to have contempt for Hindi. Clearly not the kind that familiarity breeds. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

User Fowler seems to have contempt for Sanskrit and possibly anything Indian . Clearly the kind that ignorance breeds. Sarvagnya 22:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It is both a classically attested Sanskrit word (with a somewhat different meaning), and a Sanskrit neologism (a calque of republica). Comparison with English democracy or republic is flawed, since these are anglicized and thus clearly marked as loanwords within English. Use of ganarajya should much rather be compared to a hypothetical demokratia (in this spelling) used in English. Yes, Sanskrit is actively developed, much like neo-Latin. There can be no doubt that datarum ordinatrum is Latin, even though the term refers to a concept unfamiliar to Cicero. Sanskrit was never "extinct", fowler, it was posh jargon of the learned caste from the beginning, and has always had an (admittedly dwindling) community of fluent speakers. dab (𒁳) 07:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

F&f, please stop edit-warring about this. The name is about as "Hindi" as videlicet, eo ipso or cui bono are "English". dab (𒁳) 10:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

भारत गणराज्य is the official Hindi name of the Republic of India (and possibly also in other Indian languages?) As with many Hindi names, all its components are derived Sanskrit, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the Hindi name. Still, because it isn't only a Hindi name, I think saying "Sanskrit" is a better option as it otherwise gives a misleading impression. As regards the "Bharat" vs. "Bharata" issue, if we are using the National Library of Kolkata romanisation (as we should be doing because it is the standard used by the Indian government), the romanisation of even the Hindi phrase will have an "a" at the end. I don't think there is any system of Devanagari transliteration which removes final "a"s? -- Lexmercatoria 11:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's the official name of the Republic of India. Who says it's the official Hindi name? It's the official "Hindi" name of the RoI as Confoederatio Helvetica is the official "German" name of Switzerland. It may be used in German (just as French or Italian) texts, but that doesn't make it German (or French or Italian). dab (𒁳) 13:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

India, unlike Switzerland, does not have a single official name in all its official languages. In Marathi and Gujarati, for example, the official name of India is "Bhāratiya Prajāsattāka", and even official documents written in those languages will use "Bhāratiya Prajāsattāka", not "Bhārata Gaṇarājya". Tamil official documents use something totally unrecognisable. So "Bhārata Gaṇarājya" is not a pan-language official name, and the only reason our passports say "Bhārata Gaṇarājya" is because it is the official name of India in Hindi.

Also, because of the sanskritisation of modern Hindi "Gaṇarājya" is the normal Hindi word for "republic." The Hindi name for the Czech Republic is "cek gaṇarājya", Slovakia is "slovāk gaṇarājya", the Republic of Congo is "cāṃgo gaṇarājya", and so on. This is where your analogy with "Confoederatio Helvetica" falls down. "Bhārata Gaṇarājya" is a grammatically and lexically valid Hindi name, unlike "Confoederatio Helvetica" in German.

I still say, as I said above, that the article should continue to say "Sanskrit: Bhārata Gaṇarājya" as it says now, because a few other Indian languages like Kannada do use the same name, so it isn't exclusive to Hindi (marking it Hindi would make it seem so). But in the process, let's not confuse the issue as to why the name has official status. -- Lexmercatoria 18:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(Unrelated) Out of curiosity, could anyone tell me what is the Hindi phrase for "People's Republic"? Several countries use this (including People's_Republic_of_China, Bangladesh etc.). In Bengali, this translates as Ganaprajatantro (e.g. Ganapratantri Bangladesh). --Ragib 18:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In Hindi, it is "janavādi gaṇarājya", so China is "janavādi gaṇarājya cīn". In Marathi, it is "janatece prajāsattāka", so China is "cīnce janatece prajāsattāka". -- Lexmercatoria 19:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Lexmercatoria's comment about "ganarajya" not being a pan-Indian name. Here is R. S. McGregor in the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, "The potential of Hindi as a favoured form of Hindi-Urdu, and the great geographical range of Hindi-Urdu across the subcontinent and indeed beyond (which makes this language probably the world's third in terms of numbers of users) brought it about that 'Hindi in the Devanagari script' was recognised in 1947 as the official language of India." So, the reason why "Bharata Ganarajya" is there on the India page is simply that it is the name in the official language of India. As for Dab's comments, I am, of course, aware that Sanskrit didn't become completely extinct, but it stopped evolving in the way that a "living" language does (i.e. one spoken and written by a large number of users). There were of course the proverbial coterie of pundits who kept Sanskrit half-alive during the last millennium by reciting the Rig Veda in eleven different ways, but they didn't create the neologism "ganarajya." That was created by users of Hindi, as Hindi increasingly became a language of instruction and nationalism in the late 19th century. As I said above, the word "ganarajya" is a calque (loan translation (of meaning)) of the English "democracy" in the form of a neologism formed with two Hindi words of Sanskrit origin ("gana" and "rajya"). ganarajya" might now be a neologism of modern (neo-) Sanskrit as well, and, for example, be caught on the nightly Sanskrit news broadcast by the Indian national radio, by all half dozen people who listen to it. However, comparisons with videlicet are inappropriate. Unlike videlicet in English, all three words "gana," "rajya," and "ganarajya" are common words in Hindi, used in such constructions as "ganavadi" (republican), "gana-tantra" (the more common name for republic), "rajya sabha" (council of state) etc.

A good comparative example is the late 19th century neologism "protophyll," which the OED splits as: [f. PROTO- + Gr. {phi}{guacu}{lambda}{lambda}-{omicron}{nu} leaf.], without saying that "protophyll" is Greek, although it now might be used in scientific Greek as well. So, how about: Hindi: "Bharat Ganarajya" (f. Skt. Bharat (India) Gana (people) + Rajya (state))? I won't revert anything, but I think to say that "ganarajya" in its current meaning is Sanskrit is essentially incorrect. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

PS I just talked to Colin Masica, who agreed with my analysis. He added that he was not aware of a readily available utility for looking up history of usage of Hindi words (similar,for example, to the OED, which provides a history of usage of all its words). He also added that a Sanskrit word could be translated differently into different Indian languages; for example, the word "samadhan" means "solution" in Sanskrit and Hindi, but (apparently) means "answer" or "reply" in Kannada, and "peace" in Malayalam. So, not only do different Indian languages have different (Sanskrit derived) names for "republic," (as mentioned by Lexmercatoria above) but the word "ganarajya" itself (to the extent that it exists in these languages) could mean different things. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Three points:

• Although both "gaṇatantra" and "gaṇarājya" mean "republic", there is a slight distinction in usage. "Gaṇatantra" is used in an adjectival sense - e.g. "gaṇatantra divasa" for "Republic day" - and sometimes to refer to the abstract concept, but "gaṇarājya" is always used for "Republic" in the name of a country. You could say "gaṇarājya" is closer in meaning to something like "Republican state."
• I am not sure if the word "gaṇarājya" was coined in Hindi. It is used in Kannada (and I think also in Telugu), but not in Marathi and Gujarati. If it were of Hindi origin, I would expect it to be the other way around, because Kannada and Telugu have usually coined different words from Hindi for modern concepts, although all use Sanskrit roots as their source. I have no idea what sources are available in relation to the etymology of the term.
• I favour saying "Sanskrit" because some languages other than Hindi (but not all) use this name. If someone can arrive at a better formulation that captures this, that would be welcome. -- Lexmercatoria 21:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(the last reply overlapped with Fowler&Fowler's post, adding a further point) F&F, a good example of words having slightly different meanings is "gaṇatantra" itself, which means "republic" in Hindi, but "democracy" in some other languages. I've never seen "gaṇatantra" used to mean "democracy" in Hindi, contrary to what you say. "Democracy" is usually rendered "prajātantra" or "lokatantra". Which emphasises my point that the fact that "gaṇarājya" has the same meaning in Hindi and two South Indian languages strongly indicates that it was not invented in the Hindi heartland in the 19th century. At least, we can't assume it is, nor can we base what we say in the article on that assumption. -- Lexmercatoria 21:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't say, ganatantra meant democracy. (gana + tantra (system) is clearly the word for republic.) What I said was that "ganarajya," is a calque of the English word "democracy" (i.e. "rule of the people"), although it has come to mean "republic" in Hindi As for whether "ganarajya" was imported into Hindi via either Kannada or Telegu, of course anything is possible, but according to McGregor the immediate source of a number of new Hindi words of the early 20th century was not Sanskrit itself, but Sanskritized Bengali of the late 19th- and early 20th century. At any rate, I think Abecedare below seems to have a workable resolution. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I edited my comment as I was typing it, and "contrary to what you say" was a hangover from something I deleted as irrelevant (or tried to, anyway). -- Lexmercatoria 19:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

To summarize the above discussion, I think we have established that Republic of India is translated differently in various Indian languages and in particular as Bhārata Gaṇarājya in Hindi/Sanskrit/Kannada etc. We also believe that the use of the word "Ganarajya" in its modern meaning is a recent development (this, say, contrasts with the etymology of India and Bharat themselves, which trace relatively further back.) The only remaining dispute seems to be regarding the sequence in which the word Ganarajya entered the different languages, and whether it should be labelled Hindi/Sanskrit etc.
Assuming my understanding, as outlined above, is correct the question I have is why we should provide translation of "Republic of India" into any Indian language on the English wikipedia. Instead, why not simply reword the first sentence along the lines:

The Republic of India, commonly known as India or Bharat (see also other names), is a sovereign country in South Asia.

We can even place the parenthetical remarks as a footnote or in the Etymology section. Note that the name Bharat is established by the Indian constitution [1] and is not the name of the country in any particular language; therefore we don't need to provide its transliteration in Devanagari etc in the article lead, although we can continue to do so in the Etymology section. Comments/objections ? Abecedare 23:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. In fact the version of the India page I first encountered in November 2006 was similar (i.e. without the ganarajya). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

So, at this point we have to ask ourselves why we mention the term at all, in the intro. Since Sanskrit does not have the status of an "union language", while Hindi does, that reason could only be "because it is 'Hindi'", not "because it is Sanskrit". Because of this, I guess I have just changed my mind, and now think that we should either declare the term as "Hindi" (the only "official language of the Union" besides English), or drop it altogether and delegate it to India (name) (I guess we will all agree that we do not want to cite the names of ther RoI in all 23 official languages in the intro). dab (𒁳) 16:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think I was trying to say something similar somewhere above, although I didn't explain it as clearly as Dab above. I agree with him more or less in toto. Either of these two resolutions are also acceptable to me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

(editconflicted)The fact is that Bharata Ganarajya is as Sanskrit as Satyameva Jayate and both are used as tatsamas in several Indian languages; and Hindi is just one of these languages(this is a fact which only people like Fowler, who're clearly ignorant of other Indian languages fail to recognise). I wonder why nobody has yet claimed Satyameva Jayate also for Hindi?!

Not just in Kannada and Telugu(as Lex said) but even in several other languages including Gujarati and Marathi(which I think he left out) both these terms are valid words. Whether they have other synonyms(in many cases, even those would be from Sanskrit) in those languages and whether they find a place in official jargon is besides the point. The point is that these terms are 24 carat Sanskrit words. And several languages have loaned them as is. That makes these words also 'native'(so to speak) to all these recipient languages.

But if it ever comes to putting it down to one language, we will have to go with Sanskrit. If we are to call it Hindi in this article, we will also have to mention all of the several other 'recipient' languages(with the transliterations). This, of course, would be ludicrous. So, we'll just have to call it Sanskrit(which it is) even if some want to believe that it is dead and gone. Sarvagnya 17:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For starters, neither "ganarajya" nor "satyameva jayate" are tatsamas. A tatsama is an unmodified noun borrowing from Sanskrit which has retained its form and meaning. "ganarajya" is a tatpurusha compound in both Sanskrit and Hindi, whose modern meaning in Hindi is different from its classical one in Sanskrit. "satyameva jayate" is a Sanskrit phrase. It can't be Hindi phrase because there is no conjugation "jayate" (triumphs) of "jaya" (triumph) in the Hindi language. The Hindi would be "jit-ta hai," or something similar. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hindi transliterations

The above discussions bring us to an even more basic question - the question of transliterations. I want to ask why we need Hindi transliterations at all in this article. The reason, I presume is because Hindi is one of the 'official languages of the union'. Fine. Except that it still doesnt explain why we need transliterations in Hindi on wikipedia. 'Official language status' given to Hindi by the Indian government is only that it be used in official gazzettes and communication of the central govt.,(along with English). Those privileges and the Indian govt's writ certainly dont extend to wikipedia. For that matter, the Indian government has designated that the peacock is the national bird. That certainly doesnt mean that we on wikipedia have to treat it any more special than we treat, say, the crow. Yes, we will certainly mention in the Peacock article that it is India's national bird and by the same token we can and do mention in the Hindi article that it is one of the official languages of the union. There is no need to plaster Hindi all over dozens of articles under the Indian Wikiproject. Sarvagnya 17:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, I think Dab, F&F and I, all agree (see above discussion) that the Hindi/Sanskrit transliteration of "Republic of India" is superfluous in the lead. Isn't that what you are saying too ? Abecedare 17:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

We can not just leave the beginning (or the infobox, at least) with just "Republic of India," because this opposes Wikipedia:Wikiproject_countries#Facts_table. That page states the following: "The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption [of the infobox]. If there are several official names (languages), list all. The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s)."

I also think that the same applies for the lead section. So, it is a must to put Bharata Gan.arajya in the beginning of the article; whether it is Hindi or Sanskrit I do not know. I am putting the Hindi/Sanskrit names back. Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 17:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

U=a: It's a subcontinent, there is no "local" name, there are some 200 "local names". We can reasonably list all national languages on the Switzerland article (four), but we cannot reasonably do it here. But feel free to help us to even collect that list, at Names of India#Republic of India: this list is linked from the intro and the infobox, but it's in a shabby state. Less debating, more working on improving things, please. dab (𒁳) 17:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

U=a, the options seem to be, (1) Including all the (official) "native" language translations in the infobox and the lead just like Switzerland does, except that we will have roughly 22 such translations (roughly, because the translations in some languages will overlap), (2) use only the English name in the India article and list the various translations elsewhere.

I definitely prefer the second option - remember that MOS is a guideline and can be overruled if and when it conflicts with consensus, reason and common sense (as seems to be the case in this instance) I however would recommend that any objections be thrashed out here, rather than edit warring on the main page.Abecedare 17:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

A third option (which I prefer) would be to put "Bharat" in both the infobox and the introduction, as Abecedare suggested. The Constitution makes "Bharat" official, with no reference to language.

A practical problem with the first option is that we don't know the official name in each of the 22/23 languages. The two lists (should they be combined, by the way?) at Names of India#Republic of India and Official names of India are incomplete, and I am not sure how reliable they are. For example, is the official Urdu name really "Jumhuriyat-e-Hindustan"? The article on India in the Urdu Wikipedia is under "Bharat".[2] Whatever the theoretical arguments, I don't think we can implement the first option. -- Lexmercatoria 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

alright, so we have the following options:

• (a) just put the English term, since this is en-wiki, and English is a "language of the union"
• (b) give both English and Hindi as "local" names, since these are the two "languages of the union" (fine with me, but we'll get no end of trouble from the non-Hindi Indian editors)
• (c) follow MoS to the letter and give the 1,652 "local names" (huh)
• (d) be semi-reasonable and give only the 22 languages of the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution
• (e) give "Bharat" as the "local" name in "Standard Average Indian" without specifying which language this is.
• (f) keeping it simple, ignoring this discussion, and revert to the old version without switching on our brains (yes, that's you, U=a)

Note that (c) and (d) become an option only after someone took the trouble to complile these lists. I suggest you sit down and do that, U=a, before any further reverting. dab (𒁳) 19:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I draw your attention to South Africa which has 10 official languages besides English. They list them all, "hidden" by default. If someone manages to compile a referenced list of the official name in all 22 "languages of the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution", I suppose we can do the same here. The ball is thus in the court of anyone unhappy with the present solution: get to work on Official names of India.

Einstein90 has brought back the "Ganarayja". I have left a message for him at his talk page to ask him to join this discussion and explain why he disagrees with just having "Bharat". -- Lexmercatoria 11:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Officially, the Government of India is called 'Bharat Sarkar' in all official languages, regardless of whether there would be any difference in the concerned language (like 'hukumat-e-hindustan' in Urdu). The word 'Bharat' is simply translitterated to whatever script the language in question uses. My suggestion would be "India, officially the Republic of India, or Bharat (in Devanagari: भारत), is a sovereign country in South Asia." --Soman 13:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? It is definitely not called "Bharat Sarkar" in English, which is an official language. Every official English document refers to it as the "Government of India". -- Lexmercatoria 14:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I think that the MoS, even though the rules there can be flexed, should not be completely ignored. It states that the name of a country should be given in all its languages. (Possible interpretation: I think that it means all the official languages. It definitely can not mean every single one spoken in the country, because then India would not be the only country in trouble; e.g.: in the US, English is [most probably] the official language; however, there are Spanish, French, German, and innumerable other national communities living there. Does that mean that the name of the US should be written in each and every language?) That is where the flexing comes in. Obviously, English and Hindi are the most important languages (since they are the two languages of the Union). So, it would be best to list the name of a country, instead of all 23 official languages, in the two most important ones. Of course, that does not discard the 21 other languages. So, the link to other languages can be used to cover up the 21 apparently non-important languages (no offense to anyone by the phrase "non-important"). So, I think that the original sentence was the best because it did the following: it listed the English name in the beginning (which is required by the MoS; English is also an official language of India). Then, in parentheses, the local name (in Sanskrit/Hindi) was also given along with the translation of the Sanskrit/Hindi text, which was another covering of the second one of the two most important languages. Then, a link was provided to the names of India in the 21 other (non-important) languages, covering all the other official languages of India. I believe that that was good because it does not go against the MoS but instead flexes the rules a bit, which is allowed. It is neither too much (excellently wraps up 23 languages) and neither too less (by, for example, only listing one of the two most important languages). Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 16:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

that Sanskrit/Hindi is "more important" than "non-important" Tamil or Telugu or Bengali seems to be your personal opinion. You seem to suggest option (b) above. As I say, that's fine with me, but you'll face objection from speakers of "non-important" languages like Tamil or Bengali. I find the present solution superior, since India and Bharat (in transliteration, without committing to a specific script) seem to cover the short name in pretty much all of the 23 official languages. dab (𒁳) 16:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Dab, no it is not at all my personal opinion. Rather, I draw that information from the fact that Hindi and English are the two official languages of the Union and therefore the most important. Whether the name is Hindi or Sanskrit I do not know. About the potential "objections" that you are talking about, those users will have to set aside their linguistic pride and focus for the better of the article; if not, their opinions will, regretfully, have to be ignored, because those users only care about their own languages and not for the facts that build up Wikipedia. So, the reasonable solution in your (plural) hands, but you all are just not willing to accept it, for a reason that is unknown to me. Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 18:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If Hindi is one of the official languages of the union, then so be it. We shall certainly mention that fact in the article. We dont have to use the Hindi script to do that. This article or any article on english wikipedia is not any 'official' gazette of the Govt. of India for us to give Hindi the special treatment that it gets in the same. For that matter, I dont think even an official gazette of the Govt of India would use Hindi transliterations every step of the way if it was in English. That being the case, there's no need for us to afford Hindi any backdoors on wikipedia. The Indian government's writ, biases and prejudices(legal or otherwise) doesnt and should not extend to wikipedia. If it did, we will first have to fix the map to show all of Kashmir as India.

The question of 'non-Hindis' setting aside their 'linguistic pride' doesnt arise at all. If anything, there's a need for 'Hindis' to get used to the fact that outside of the corridors of power of the central govt of India, Hindi is no more important than any other language. If there is any language in India that can arguably claim to be 'more important' than other languages, it is English which is the official, link and national language for all practical purposes. Sarvagnya 18:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya illustrates my point. I'm afraid it will have to be the full list of 23. dab (𒁳) 18:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, but perhaps it would be better to put the entire local name of India, instead of just plain "Bharat" to "Bharata Gan.arajya." That said, imaging yourself visiting this article for the first time. You see that the native name for this country called India is Bharata Gan.arajya (or Bharat, if the first point is not approved). Huh??? What language is it in? So, perhaps the language of the "Bhrata Gan.arajya" (or "Bharata") should be put in order to tell the reader what language that is in. Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 19:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Have we reached any conclusion that the wording is Hindi? --Ragib 19:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Bharata Ganarajya is as unmistakeably Sanskrit as Satyameva Jayate is. If the Hindi equivalent also happens to be 'Bharata Ganarajya', then so be it. We can mention it in the Official names of India article along with the other native names in assamese, oriya, tamil, kannada etc.,. And come to think of it, that article itself should probably be moved to Native names of India in different languages or something. Sarvagnya 20:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's the documents, make whatever decision you will -

“ Hindi in Devanagari script is the official language of the Union ”

This is from the The Department of Official Language - Government of India.Bakaman 21:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Baka, that is precisely my point too. Hindi is 'official' language of the 'Union of India' - not of wikipedia. See my comments just a couple of comments above. Sarvagnya 23:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

---

No "Bharat Ganarajya" it is not as unmistakably Sanskrit as "Satyam Eva Jayate" is. As I have said above "Bharat Ganarajya" is a tatpurusha compound in Hindi, the national language of India (a compound of two Hindi tatsamas (unmodified Sanskrit loanwords), "gana" and "rajya"). The compound "ganarajya" is formed the same way in Hindi as it is in Sanskrit. Other such compounds would be "jana-rajya" or "praja-rajya" etc. All make grammatical sense in Hindi and Sanskrit. "Satyam Eva Jayate" is a phrase from the Upanishad and is irredeemably Sanskrit; it has nothing to do with Hindi, and doesn't make grammatical sense in Hindi. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

For starters, Hindi is NOT India's 'national' language and as for the word itself, it is as much a tatpurusha in Sanskrit and Kannada and Telugu and several other languages as it is in Hindi. And as Gnanapiti showed above, this 'tatpurusha' is first attested in Sanskrit(your nitpicking OR about the nuances of its supposed meanings notwithstanding). And in any case, if it comes down to us having to choose one and only one label for it, it has to be Sanskrit. Not Hindi. For your info, Bharata is Skt., gaNa is Skt., and so is rAjya. All three are tatsamas in several indian languages and all of these 'several indian languages' have even borrowed the very concept of 'tatpurusha' lock, stock and barrel from Sanskrit. Sarvagnya 23:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I just said above that "gana" and "rajya" are both unmodified Sanskrit loanwords in Hindi. That makes them Sanskrit words first. Please don't repeat my own words to me and presume to inform me. All I am saying is (a) keep only the English, or (b) English and Hindi (as official languages), or (c) 23 languages, or (d) bag the "ganarajya" and simply keep the Bharat. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I repeat that I accept that "English and Hindi are India's 'languages of the union'" and as such have a position that marks them above the list of 23 'Eighth Schedule' languages. We could, on these grounds, state "Hindi: Bharat Ganarajya" (Bharat making it Hindi, not Sanskrit). Per official languages of India, parliamentary proceedings are in either Hindi or English, which means that the RoI has these two official languages. The 'Eighth Schedule' languages enjoy special recognition, but they are not 'official languages' in any meaningful sense as long as parliamentary proceedings are not permissible in these languages. But, in the same way,

In contrast, the constitution requires the authoritative text of all laws, including Parliamentary enactments and statutory instruments, to be in English ... also translated into Hindi, though the English text remains authoritative

In this sense, English is the single authoritative official language of the union, and it is perfectly permissible to leave the English name as the single official "local name". dab (𒁳) 09:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

English may be an official language of India, but it is certainly not alone in that status. Hindi is the other one. The other 21 were made official because of the hundreds of million people in India who speak them. The two, Hindi and English, were preserved in status as the official languages of the entire Union, therefore the most important ones for the entire country. Sarvagnya, I realize that Wikipedia is not an official gazette of the government of India; however, Wikipedia must present the facts and not the consequences of linguistical pride or prejudices, and the fact is that Hindi and English are the most important languages of in India because they have the status as the two official languages in the Union. Also, I can see that some people think that Bharat, and not Bharat Gan.arajya, is the official local name of India. Is there any reliable and authorative source to justify that? The CIA World Factbook (one of the most reliable sources on the web, if not the most reliable) states that the conventional local name with the Gan.arajya, and all the other websites that I visit state the long form of the local name with the Gan.arajya. Also, whether it inaccurately remains Bharat or whether it is correctly changed to Bharat Gan.arajya, there is one thing that is lacked. That is the language of it. The reader should at least know what language the phrase is in. Otherwise, it might as well be presumed that the language is one spoken by a tribe of Africa. Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 13:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely with you Dab. My note above was for Sarvagyna, who seems to have a visceral dislike for me, and continues to wax illogical in his inimitable mix of half-digested jargon, misplaced metaphors, and slang. I am hardly pro-Hindi or anti-Sanskrit, the convenient categories that he likes to assign me to. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

English and Hindi are not the only official languages of the Union. Its used for easier communication. This will change when it becomes easier to translate to various Indian languages and one will see communication in Bengali between the central government and the state govt of West Bengal. This will be similar with all the states. It's only a matter of time before it happens. The official languages include all the languages recognized in the constitution of India. The official column must include all the languages including English and Hindi without any differentiation. One single language cannot be the official language of the Indian Union. It's all together. Chanakyathegreat 14:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

India or Republic of India ?

I have an even more basic questions. The current article begins with, "The Republic of India (Sanskrit: भारत गणराज्य Bhārata Gaṇarājya; see also other names), commonly known as India". Do we have any source which says that the "Republic of India" is the proper name, while "India" is the common name ?
Here is what Article 1 of the Indian Constitution has to say on the subject:

1. Name and territory of the Union.—(1) India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States.

and the phrase "Republic of India" does not appear in any of its 395 article; more surprisingly yet, the word "republic" never reappears after being used in the preamble. Was the name changed to Republic of India by some later amendment ? Abecedare 16:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I did find that the CIA factbook, Britannica call "Republic of India" the long form and Official name respectively, but I am still curious to know if/how/where/when this name was adopted . Abecedare 05:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The name "Republic of India" has been used in the recitals of all laws ("Be it enacted by Parliament in the xxxth year of the Republic of India", see this very randomly chosen example) right from the start. This is also used in all treaties signed by India as in this example of a treaty with Sri Lanka. I don't know when it was formally adopted, but it is clearly the official name. -- Lexmercatoria 18:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

we have discussed this at length before. dab (𒁳) 13:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Dab, my focus was different from that of the previous discussion. The basic question I had was: "When and how was 'Republic of India' adopted as the formal name for the (political entity) India, especially since Article 1 of the constitution names the political entity India, or Bharat ?" The answer to that specific question is still not available, but the links Lexmercatoria provided, along with the CIA factbook statement, do establish that 'Republic of India' is the formal name. So the issue, as far as the wikipedia article India is concerned, is resolved - although my curiosity about the original question remains piqued. Abecedare 23:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

you are right, I apologize. dab (𒁳) 16:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Population

The population of India is around the 1.1 billion, not 1.2 billion, the latter was written in the factscolumn on the right. --Robster1983 18:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I also changed the figures in the "Demographics" section. Also, since 1.1 billions is a bit too vague. I put 1.12 billion in both places (infobox and "Demographics" section). Any objections to this? Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 08:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Mass Media of India

Perhaps a paragraph about the Mass Media of India can be added at the end of the "Culture" section. Information about it can be taken from the Indian mass media article and the end of pg. 18 and the beginning of pg. 19 of this link. Please give your feedback on whether one should be added or not. Thank you. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 14:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree a line can be added--Knowledge Hegemony 16:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Official languages

At the moment, the "Official languages" section in the table lists most of the languages of the Eighth Schedule, except Bodo (which I guess was accidentally left out). I agree that only including Hindi and English does not reflect the real diversity of India, so in principle I agree with the idea of including more languages. But I don't think the Eighth Schedule is the correct basis for selecting the languages to be listed. The languages listed in the Eighth Schedule are not called "official languages" in the Constitution, the Official Languages Act, the Offical Languages Rules, or any other legal document, so calling them that is factually inaccurate. In addition some of them like Sanskrit don't have official status in any part of India, while other languages like Kokborok which have official status in individual states are not listed in the Eighth Schedule.

I think we can take three possible approaches:

• We can list all languages that are used by any state as official languages. But this will create a practical problem because the list at Official languages of India is still not completely reliable. I have been trying to check it and correct the mistakes, but it is difficult to get access to State Acts for all states so it is likely to take a very long time.
• We can change the entry to say: "Hindi and English at the Central level, various others at the State level."

I support this if at all a change is needed. KnowledgeHegemony 16:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• We can list the languages in the Eighth Schedule (as we have now, but adding Bodo), and add a clearer note. The list would then read:

"Hindi, English, Assamese, Bengali, Bodo, Dogri, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithili, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santhali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu (see note†)"

And the note would read:

"†Hindi and English are the official languages of the Union, the other 22 are represented on teh Official Language Commission and have other privileges. In addition, each State has its own official languages."

Or if any better ideas that anyone may come up with. Until we agree on something, we can keep it as it is, with all the languages of the Eighth Schedule listed, but I think we should try and make the wording more accurate. -- Lexmercatoria 16:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The best option I feel would be a somewhat complete list as explicated in Lexmercatoria's third point, with a clarifying note, perhaps in the footnotes, explaining the relative status of the languages and giving a reference. Only this can give the true representative status of the languages. Yanamad

All official languages of the Union must be listed starting with Assamese.Chanakyathegreat 16:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Consider that the Official languages of India consists of all languages recognized as such and not the official languages of the states. Not all official languages of the states are Official languages of the Union. The Official languages of the Union and Official languages of the state are two different things. and the perception that Hindi and English is the only Official languages of the Union is totally incorrect. For communication purposes any of these languages can be used. Hindi and English is part of it. English because of State of Nagaland. Chanakyathegreat 16:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Official names

Further information: Official names of India

(continued from above) alright, the question begins to transpire, are there even official names of the RoI in the 23 8th Schedule languages? Obviously, there will be names for India in these langauges, but they are only 'official' if there is an official version of the Indian Constitution in these languages. Into which languages has the constitution been translated, and where is the text? Why has nobody linked the government website hosting the constitution text? So far, we are only aware of the English version of the constitution, s:Constitution of India. We don't even have evidence of a Hindi version of the constitution, let alone one in the 21 remaining '8th Schedule' languages. Compare Switzerland: we give the name in the four national languages, and it goes without saying that there are respective versions of the Swiss Constitution, linked from that article, hosted at the authoritative admin.ch domain. It appears that the first thing we need to clean up is the Indian Constitution article before we get any further here. dab (𒁳) 10:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

so, it appears that the constitution is in English, with a Hindi translation [3]. No constitution in any of the remaining 21 languages. From this it follows that there are no official names other than in English and Hindi. Since the English constitution is the original, and the Hindi version its translation, the "local names" should be given in this order: "India, Bharat". dab (𒁳) 10:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

per article 1, the official name of the country is "India; Bharat" in English, and "Bhārat; Inḍiyā" in Hindi. End of story, anything else (such as the formal RoI used internationally) is either not "local", or not "official". Case closed I guess. dab (𒁳) 11:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Federalism in India does funny things to the official language. Hindi as the "official language of the union" is only official in dealings with the central government. At the state level, Hindi has absolutely no status at all unless the state in question adopts Hindi as its official language. So in Kerala, as an example, no laws or official documents are published in Hindi and Hindi is not used in government work (except in central government offices). If you need to deal with the Government of Kerala, you have to do so in Malayalam or English. I don't know how this compares to the situation in the cantons of Switzerland, but this is the actual reason many people don't think Hindi should have a special status on this article. Currency notes in India have the denomination listed in all 23 languages of the Eighth Schedule.

"Republic of India" is not just used internationally, it is also used domestically, among other things on every law passed by Parliament and every regulation made under those laws, as I pointed out in my reply to Abecedare.

I only got involved in the discussion because people had incorrect assumptions about the legal status of various languages and names, which I wanted to correct. I am not going to agitating for one solution or another, but I would like the text to correctly reflect Indian law. I think the present version does this quite well. -- Lexmercatoria 11:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Lex, thanks for your comment. Given your background in law(right?), your comments are timely. I also just want to add that even in the Supreme court, it is English that reigns. Not Hindi. And in the High Courts, it is English once again along with the official language of the state in question. Your example of Kerala reminds me of a news item from some time ago when somebody(dont remember who) wrote a letter in Hindi to Karunakaran, the then Kerala CM and Karunakaran wrote back in Malayalam. Needless to say, the English translation of the original letter in Hindi was delivered post-haste to the Kerala CM's office. A similar thing happened between the former Karnataka CM S M Krishna and Uma Bharati. Krishna in this case, if I remember correctly, just sent the mail back to Uma Bharati. Then we have the provision where members of parliament are allowed to use their own languages(from a set of nine or ten languages, I believe). Sarvagnya 11:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am a lawyer (hence my user name). I rewrote the Official languages of India article some time ago, I've tried to get it to a state where it accurately explains the very complicated situation in relation to the official use of language in India. As I hope it shows, the status of Hindi and other languages is not what people often assume it to be. The official languages of the Union don't have a national status in the way languages do elsewhere, which I think is a rather important point to be borne in mind. -- Lexmercatoria 17:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the languages in which the Constitution of India exists: the Constitution was translated into all languages of the original Eighth Schedule. The resolution passed by the Constituent Assembly authorising the preparation of the Hindi translation also authorised "a translation into such other Indian languages as the President may think fit." Here is the exact text:

"Resolved that the President be authorised and requested,to take necessary steps to have a translation of the Constitution prepared in Hindi and to have it published under his authority before January 26. 1950 and also to arrange for the preparation and publication of the translation of the Constitution in such other major languages of India as he deems fit."[4]

The languages initially selected were those in the Eighth Schedule. I have no idea if translations have been prepared in the languages subsequently added to the Eighth Schedule, but I would expect that they eventually will be if they don't already exist. The Indian government is very bad at putting things online, so it's dangerous to draw conclusions from the fact that they're not on the Government's website. -- Lexmercatoria 17:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

well, of course, as soon as we have evidence that the constitution has been authoritatively translated into other languages, we can add the names figuring in those. Since this is the article on the union, I suggest we only need to bother with union-wide standards; obviously, the official names of individual states should be given in the official languages of the respective states. Thus, Tamil Nadu rightly gives the name in Tamil, obviously. I don't know about "Republic of India". If it's not in the constitution, that's at best a convention, not an officially sanctioned name of the state. And, sheesh, we're not expecting live video feeds of all parliamentary sessions, but these days it should not be asking too much of the government of a major country and alleged "great power" to put online 23 pathetic pdf files. dab (𒁳) 21:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

ok. here's evidence that there is atleast a Kannada version of the constitution. This article doesnt say anything about editions in other languages. But apparently, it is the 'The Directorate of Translations under the Ministry of Law and Parliamentary Affairs' that is responsible for these translations. Googling for them might help us find something. Also here's the Official language act of Karnataka. I'd imagine that atleast half the country(all the southern states and bengal+some NE states for sure) would be following Acts similar to this. Lex, can you take a look at it and break up the nuances if any for us. Sarvagnya 22:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

National anthem / national song

I've readded "Vande mataram" in the infobox. The statement of the Chair to the Constituent Assembly which led to the adoption of Jana Gana Mana also said:

"[T]he song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honoured equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it."[5]

It has equal status, which means to mention only Jana Gana Mana without mentioning Vande Mataram misstates the law. -- Lexmercatoria 17:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a footnote can be added to explain this unique situation of having a national anthem and also a national song. The quote you gave above can be used there ... --Ragib 17:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that can be done. Also, perhaps a line can be added before the song (like there is between every other item in the infobox). Also, if, for the national anthem, it is written only "Anthem," for the national song, it should also only be written "Song"; perhaps the opposite can also be done (write "National anthem" and "National song.") All this can (and should) be done in order to main consistency. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 18:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly fine. I actually wanted to add a footnote, but I couldn't figure out how to put a footnote into the infobox. -- Lexmercatoria 18:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference added.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but what about the consistency point? Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 16:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Original Research?

To Lexmercatoria and others, I am a little concerned that what is unfolding here is affecting the India page and the Official languages of India page in ways that might constitute original research. Both pages now declare all 23 languages to be official languages, with footnotes accompanying Hindi and English explaining their official status at the federal level. For example the first two sentences in the Official languages of India page reads:

“ As a large and linguistically diverse country, India does not have a single official language. Instead, the Constitution of India envisages a situation where each state has :its own official language(s), in addition to the official languages to be used by the Union government. ”

This subtle equalizing of the official languages of the various states with the official languages of the union is contrary to how other tertiary sources like Britannica and Encarta treat the subject. Here is Britannica describing the official languages of some multi-lingual nations in their respective "infoboxes," including India (at the end). (* denotes a footnote, with the note itself in parentheses.)

• Kazakhstan. Official Language: Kazhak*. (*Russian has equal status with Kazakh at state-owned organizations and bodies of local government.)
• South Africa. Official Languages: *. (* Afrikaans; English; Ndebele; Pedi (North Sotho); Sotho (South Sotho); Swazi; Tsonga; Tswana (West Sotho); Venda; Xhosa; Zulu.)
• Algeria. Offical Language: Arabic*. (* The Berber language, Tamazight, became a national language in April 2002).
• Canada. Official Languages: English, French.
• Papua New Guinea. Official Languages: English*. (* The national languages are English, Tok Pisin (English Creole), and Motu.)
• New Zealand. Official Languages: English; Maori.
• United States. Official Language: None.
• United Kingdom. Official Language: English; both English and Welsh in Wales.
• Switzerland. Official Languages: French; German; Italian; Romansh (locally).
• Sri Lanka. Official Languages: Sinhala, Tamil.* (*English has official status as “the link language” between Sinhala and Tamil.)
• Georgia. Official Languages: Georgian*. (*Locally Abkhazian, in Abkhazia.)
• Peru. Official Languages: Spanish; Quechua (locally); Aymara (locally)
• Belgium. Official Languages: Dutch; French; German
• India. Official Languages: Hindi; English.

Notice that in the sample above various permutations and combinations of languages and footnotes are described. Clearly, the editors at Britannica are aware of the complexities involved in such descriptions; nonetheless, for India, they choose: Hindi; English. There must be a good reason for this. The Britannica India page is written by some of the world's best-known India experts, including, Joseph E. Schwartzberg, Romila Thapar, Muzaffar Alam, and Stanley Wolpert, who can hardly be described as Hindi protagonists. It is hard to believe that this choice of Hindi and English (as official languages in the infobox) is accidental.

Here is how Encarta describes the official languages in its version of the India infobox:

“ There are 24 languages spoken in India by at least 1 million people each. Numerous other languages and dialects are also spoken. Hindi is the official national language and is the primary language for 40 percent of the population. Other official languages include Assamese, Bangla, Bodo, Dogri, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithali, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santhali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, and Urdu. Hindustani is a popular variant of Hindi/Urdu and is spoken widely throughout northern India. English has associate status as the official working language and is important for national, political, and commercial matters. (The percentage of speakers are) Hindi 40%, Bengali 8%, Telegu 8%, Marathi 7%) ”

Similarly, with the names:

• Britannica: Official Name: Bharat (Hindi); Republic of India (English)
• Encarta: India, officially Republic of India (Hindi: Bharat)

Both encyclopedias, give a special status to Hindi and English as official federal languages, above that of the official state languages. In contrast, Wikipedia has moved the description of this special status either to footnotes (as in the India page) or to a subordinate sentence structures (as in the Official languages of India page (second sentence, lead)). In so doing, Wikipedia is now subtly implying a devolution of (the relations between) the official languages of India that, however welcome, may not exist in practice. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what Britannica or Encarta says in this matter, I think an exact, accurate quote from the Constitution of India will triumph all other possible sources. So, just quote the appropriate section from there, and we'll be done. If Britannica or Encarta differ from the CoI, then they are just being inaccurate.

Since I don't know which section of the CoI handles this, perhaps someone who does should check this out. --Ragib 08:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Without a doubt, they are a figment of original research. There has been a constant effort by editors to undermine the fact that Hindi and English are the official languages of the Union, that is, India.

According to the information by Department of Official Language (DOL) , official language invariably pertains to Hindi. According to its official website- www.rajbhasha.gov.in. Hindi withholds special importance along with English. Do read this OFFICIAL LANGUAGE POLICY OF THE UNION and CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS to know more. The annual programme by Department of Official Language FOR TRANSACTING THE OFFICIAL WORK OF THE UNION IN HINDI 2007-2008 states the provisions regarding official importance and usage of Hindi.

Here is text from the Constitution of India stating clearly the Official language of the Union.

-- KnowledgeHegemony 10:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm just curious as to why you are citing the original 1950 version ... this has obviously gone through amendments added as Schedules. Per Schedule 8 [6], Article 344 (1) and Article 351 have been amended to include at least 18 other languages, and that supersedes the version you quoted above. --Ragib 10:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Does that mean that Hindi is the official language and that English is another official language to be used for subsidereal translational purposes? Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 10:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Ragib, Please note that Eighth Schedule was in reference to regional and classical languages it does not apply to the Union as a whole. Article 343- Official language of the Union is what we are talking about the one related to the Union of India.

Article 343
Official language of the Union-
(1) The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in Devnagari script. The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union shall be the international form of Indian numerals.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in clause (1), for a period of fifteen years from the commencement of this Constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was being used immediately before such commencement:

Provided that the President may, during the said period, by order authorise the use of the Hindi language in addition to the English language and of the Devnagari form of numerals in addition to the internationl form of Indian numerals for any of the official purposes of the Union.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in this article, Parliament may be law provide for the use, after the said period of fifteen years, of-

(a) the English language, or
(b) the Devnagari form of numerals,

for such purposes as may be specified in the law.

-- KnowledgeHegemony 13:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

To Ragib, It seems to me that there is no need to go to the Constitution and look for references to "official languages." Those are already discussed (as mentioned by K-H above) on the "Official Language Policy" page of the Government of India. The page is pretty complete and its sidebars include:

• Official Language Policy
• Constitutional Provisions
• President's Orders
• Official Languages Act
• Official Languages Resolution
• Official Language Rules
• Chronology of Events with Reference to the Official :Language of the Union

India has the 2nd largets army accordring to http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-countries-with-largest-armies-map.html

Going to the constitution (and its amendments) to look for exact and accurate quotations invariably leads to questions of meaning, intent, and original intent—all trapdoors to a bottomless quest. In addition, both Britannica and Encarta (especially the former) are widely respected tertiary sources and they agree on the question of "official languages" for India. That needs to be taken seriously. I am happy to look at secondary sources all well, but to go to the primary sources and parse intent is problematic. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Universe=atom, your deduction is quite true. I would want all involved to read this Official language National Portal of India. Reading this and the provisions we can deduce the fact that the phrase- "Official language" when used in context to the Union of India as a whole refers only to Hindi and English and not all the languages recognised by the Constitution. Everywhere the word language in Official Language is not plural with a suffix 's' and mostly referring to Hindi. Eg.Official Language Resolution, Department of Official Language.

KnowledgeHegemony 14:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• There is no OR here. Britannica and Encarta may be respected sources but they are not the final word on anything. Both have been known and shown to have mistakes. If we have the luxury of having access to primary and secondary sources, then we should be making use of that to write a more accurate account of the situation. The problem we are having here is not of OR. It is one of horribly incorrect assumptions that people have of Hindi's status. Even until a few weeks back, KH for example, thought and believed that Hindi was the national language and I am sure he is/was not an exception. If we look, I am sure we will find 'respectable' tertiary sources which make a mention India's 'national' language/s; while in fact, India doesnt even have anything called a 'national' language. Even NCERT was sued by a Kerala professor and they had to change their textbooks which until then mentioned that Hindi was the "national" language.
• As for 'official language of the Union', once again people seek to erroneously equate it to "national" language. That is original research. Official language of the union is NOT sacrosanct. It is not like the "national" flag or the "national" anthem which are non-negotiable wherever you go in the country. "Official language of the union" on the other hand is strictly for dealings with the central government and that too only if you choose to. I am a citizen of India and nobody can force me to use Hindi at any level. Even with the union govt., I can make do with English. I may be 'forced' to use Hindi only at the state-level, say, if I was in a state like Bihar or something where Hindi, by virtue of being the official language of the "state" becomes non-negotiable.
• Most use of Hindi that we see, is because of the Indian government's stated goal(read the constitution) of "increasing/encouraging use of hindi in central government undertakings". This is a fact and I dont mind mentioning the stepmotherly attitude of the Indian govt., in giving Hindi special treatment though the constitution itself doesnt afford Hindi much. I remember that even the ads that the govt., would air on Doordarshan years ago, would only make a case for Hindi and state that "Hindi is best suited to be "national" language" but would clearly stop short of claiming that Hindi was the "national" language. If there is one language from which there is no escape for an Indian citizen, atleast when one reaches the supreme court, it is English. It probably is one of the biggest hoaxes of modern times that Hindi is the "national" language of India and there is no reason we should be affording such hoaxes any room on wikipedia in any shape or form. Sarvagnya 14:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

No one (now) is talking about national languages, just "official languages." Nothing is implied in this "official status" about Indian culture. The official status is just what has been decided by the governments of the day to be their languages of communication etc. I am sure the Wikipedia article can state that in a footnote.

As for sources, here is what Wikipedia says about Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources:

1. Primary Sources: "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source."
2. Secondary Sources: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources."
3. Tertiary Sources: "Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources instead of tertiary ones." (Note that the entire India page in Britannica, including all its sections, is signed by experts.)

So far I have not seen any reading of primary sources buttressed by reliable secondary sources. As I mentioned above, I will be adding secondary sources later today. The ones I have found seem to support the special status of Hindi and English as official languages of the Union. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Secondary sources:

I have collected quotes from 21 secondary sources in the collapsible box below.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Last updated: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Though several of these are applicable (particularly #8), others are off-topic (e.g., #9, which discusses a proposal, not law). Saravask 00:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I have reduced the secondary sources to 15 focused ones in the collapsible box below.

Thanks. Saravask 00:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion (continued)

• Except the "...even while identifying Hindi as the official language of India..." part, the rest of the above passage is irrelevant to the discussion here. So, stop filling pages and wasting people's time. As for the 'matter-of-fact' claim that the author makes, it is a patently loose description of reality(understandable, considering that the subject of her discussion there is totally different). For that matter, I am sure that if you dig, you'll find plenty of secondary and tertiary sources even claim that Hindi is the "national" language, while in fact, the constitution clearly and conspicuously steers clear of even mentioning that word. The reality is far more nuanced as we have seen and it is in cases like this that we have to use primary sources(if available) to corroborate info from secondary and tertiary sources.
• The fact of the matter is that, not only is "official language of the Union" not the same as "national" language, but, there is also no evidence to believe that it is even close. The "official language of the union" only means that hindi(along with english) is to be used in the transactions of the central govt. And even in these 'transactions' it is "Hindi only", "Hindi and English" or "English only" as the case may be. For example, states like Karnataka, TN, Andhra, Kerala etc., carry out all their transactions with the central govt., in English. A citizen of these states in turn uses Kannada(in case of Ktaka) with the state govt., and is free to use English with the babus in Delhi. The supreme court which is above(so to speak) the central govt., uses English. The "Constitution" which is 'above' the Supreme Court is in English with translations in several languages(including one in Hindi).

As an aside, the second half is indeed ironical. While one reading of it may suggest that Hindi piggybacked(unfairly) on Sanskrit's fair name, some others might lament that 'kommunal Porces' did afterall, manage to find Sanskrit a backdoor. Sarvagnya 19:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

You haven't produced a single reliable secondary source. You are now asserting that your claim needs "primary sources (if available)," while at the same time disparaging the secondary sources that disagree with you. Sumati Ramaswami, BTW, is a very careful historian of South Asia, one not given to "patently loose descriptions of reality" as you claim. The subject of the paper is not "totally different," as you again claim; the paper is a discussion of the history of the failed decade-long (1947-1957) attempt to make Sanskrit the official language of India and is very much linked to the language that eventually won out, namely Hindi. Almost every page of the paper discusses this issue. I have now increased the number of quotes from the paper to two and also moved the extended quote to a collapsible box. (The only reason I added the extended quote was to assure people that the author is not a Hindi protagonist.) I have no idea what you are alluding to in your aside, but since it is an aside and irrelevant to the discussion on hand, I will not dwell on it. Meanwhile, I will keep adding reliable secondary citations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Sumathi Ramaswamy is not news to me. I am fully aware of her scholarship and I have myself cited from her other works in a couple of articles that I have edited in the past. I have also read her books and will be citing her in future also. That I am 'disparaging' her scholarship, is, but a figment of your imagination.

She may have deliberated in her paper about Sanskrit's failed nom, but she doesnt delve into the nuances of what the constitution says and what it really means. And if you want secondary sources, just google. This piece from the Tribune first first weasels about the 1950 legislation and then declares - ...even more than half a century after being declared a national language, Hindi has not only not been given its due status but is also looked down upon by the elite... as if nothing changed since then. I am sure you'll find more on similar lines. As for sources like Britannica, Encarta etc., I dont think they have articles on the lines of Official languages of India etc.,. But we do. And all the content in this article is supposed to be a summary of articles that are downstream. We cant write something in the 'downstream' article and change its meaning when we summarise it here. The Indian govt gives preferential treatment(like in PSUs, railway booking counters, nationalised banks etc.,) to Hindi because it is one of its 'stated goals'. You cant point to that, confuse issues and conclude that Hindi is some sort of quasi-national language. It is not. There was a time in wikipedia when every second India related article had Hindi transliterations simply because Hindi was India's 'national language'(sic)! And I cleaned up much of the mess braving hordes and hordes of Hindi nationalists. You werent even around then. So dont give me this nonsense that I do what I do because I have a 'visceral' dislike for you or that I am anti hindi or that I disparage sources that disagree with me. Once again, SR isnt even discussing what we are discussing. Our discussion here starts off where her's ends. Sarvagnya 23:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

And the crux of the matter here is SR's reading of "...official language of the union.." as "official language of India/country". This is rather simplistic and flawed when you take a look at what the constitution actually says. If you read the constitution, it is clear that what is meant by the word "Union" is the "Union government" and not the country. And the Government of India is NOT the country. It is only a part of the country. Sarvagnya 00:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you specify where Union is the Union Government and not the Union of India. --KnowledgeHegemony 09:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read this and don't call it a hoax and term it one of the greatest hoaxes - http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p01001.html

1. Line 1:Name and territory of the "UNION":-
   

Clearly Union means the Country and not the Union Government.

Note: Just because you don't like a fact its not a hoax. The Constitution, CIA, Brittanica etc are not Hoaxes, neither are they Hindi fundmentalists.--KnowledgeHegemony 09:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Explain this. KnowledgeHegemony 09:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• As it stands, Hindi and English are the official languages of the federation. They are the official languages of India, to the extent the central government is the Government of India. However, they are not the sole official languages of India, to the extent the Government of India is not the only government body that is involved in the administration of India. I really don't know how to make this clearer. At any rate, because of this, the term "official language" has a lot of nuances in relation to India, and it seems to me that an encyclopaedic article which is devoted to the sole topic of the official languages of India (as opposed to a throwaway sentence in a larger article) needs to describe this. If you disagree, you can feel free to revert that article to this version.
• As far as the Eighth Schedule is concerned, if you look further up this page, you'll see that I started out by questioning whether it was appropriate to list the languages in the Eighth Schedule as the official languages in the box. See here. Almost nobody responded to that question. If people feel that "official languages" for the purpose of this article ought to only be Hindi and English, I'm not going to stand in your way - it was one of the options I suggested, for heaven's sake. But please understand the fact that you're taking a decision on what meaning you want to attach to the term "official language", that that is not the only meaning the term has as a matter of Indian law, and please be sure that you are convinced you have good reasons for taking that decision.

For the record, Hindi is my mother tongue (to the extent someone who grew up in South Bombay has a mother tongue).-- Lexmercatoria 21:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No one has said that you are anti-Hindi; at least I haven't. What I said above was simply that citing primary sources (more than a few times) without supportive secondary sources constitutes original research (according to how WP defines original research). The Official languages of India page has 46 citations of primary sources and only one of a secondary source. If the secondary sources don't exist, then you should really be writing a paper for a constitutional law (or law and linguistics) journal, and if they do, you should cite them. Wikipedia is very clear on this, as I have mentioned above. I will reply to your other points later. I don't necessarily disagree with them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That is, bluntly put, asking the impossible. No journal is going to accept a paper which does nothing more than restate what the law self-evidently says. Anyway, if that is what Wikipedia's policies require, there isn't very much I can do about it. I guess I finally understand why articles which touch on issues of Indian law are so utterly abysmal, and so frequently get things wrong. -- Lexmercatoria 23:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it can't be that self-evident if it is not out there anywhere. At least you could write a survey article summarizing the state of affairs. For the record, the little that I have read of your posts above, I have found you to be a considerate and objective editor (in contrast to others with inscrutable compulsions); however, I am a little troubled by your words "... you're taking a decision on what meaning you want to attach to the term "official language", that that is not the only meaning the term has as a matter of Indian law, and please be sure that you are convinced you have good reasons for taking that decision." My understanding of WP policy is that we don't make those decisions; we simply follow precedence to the extent we can find it in the secondary sources. (Encyclopedia writing is dumb to that extent.) That is why I produced the 16 secondary source citations above. I think if Britannica, Encarta, the UN, UNESCO, the Library of Congress, US State Department, the British Foreign Office, etc. think that (in the context of a profile or information box) Hindi and English, as official languages of the union, deserve precedence over the other 21 official languages recognized by the constitution, then we need to take that precedence seriously. That is all I am saying. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

In India, law is still regarded as something of a trade, so there is a whole lot of stuff that all lawyers "know", which you won't find in the literature. In general, the moment you start dealing with delegated legislation, you stop finding secondary sources unless the subject is tax law.

The point I was trying to make is that, "official language" has these manifold meanings in law, which we need to take note of. I am still very new to Wikipedia, and I had no idea the rules were this strict about primary sources - my impression was that any sort of source was fine, so I was basically expecting to just have to point to sections, paragraphs, and so on to fix the many problems we have in articles where Indian law is relevant. Secondary sources frequently get things wrong, and I've seen so many incorrect treatments of India's language policy written by non-lawyers it makes mne want to tear my hair out. I suppose I'll just need some time to figure out how to work with the rules about primary and secondary sources. -- Lexmercatoria 00:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I see. Yes, it does present a dilemma; however, it is well worth the wait for thinking it through, as you propose. If you need to run something by me, I am happy to help. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

My 2 cents: I don't detect that big a gulf between what Lex and F&F are claiming, and this may just be an instance of talking past each other. As far as I understand:

• Lex is right as to the interpretation of English and Hindi as "official languages of the union" as laid out in the Indian constitution and the Official Language Act. (I know these are primary sources, that cannot be the sole basis for writing a wikipedia article, but that does not mean that I cannot use them to come to my own conclusion as long as that conclusion is voiced on talk pages)
• F&F is right that English and Hindi are referred to as "Official languages of India" by well-established secondary sources. This does give the two languages a "distinctive" status. Notre I am using the word "distinctive" with care and not implying any linguistic superiority

The above statements are simply facts (correct me if I am wrong here!) and the only point of contention (as far as the India article is concerned), is whether the "distinctive" status accorded to English and Hindi by the GOI should mean that the wikipedia article list the name of the country in the two languages or not ? This brings is back to the options enumerated by Dab, which I relist here:

• (a) just put the English term, since this is en-wiki, and English is a "language of the union"
• (b) give both English and Hindi as "local" names, since these are the two "languages of the union" (fine with me, but we'll get no end of trouble from the non-Hindi Indian editors)
• (c) follow MoS to the letter and give the 1,652 "local names" (huh)
• (d) be semi-reasonable and give only the 22 languages of the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution
• (e) give "Bharat" as the "local" name in "Standard Average Indian" without specifying which language this is.
• (f) keeping it simple, ignoring this discussion, and revert to the old version without switching on our brains

Personally I can live with options (a), (b) and (e) - but this is a matter of editorial judgement and not simply stating facts. Abecedare 01:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposals

Proposal 1: Official Languages: I have now finished compiling the secondary sources (for official languages) for the purposes of this article. See here for the extended quotes. In light of the references, especially 19 by B. Mallikarjun, Academic Secretary, Central Institute of Indian Languages, (Manasagangothri, Mysore 570006, India), author of Language Use in Administration and National Integration, Mysore: Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1986, and an expert of the subject and reference 21 by David Laitin, Watkins Professor of Political Science at Stanford, and another expert on the subject, I feel that Hindi (and to lesser extent English) has had a special position in language policy in India from well before independence, and is reflected so in the constitution. This needs to be acknowledged explicitly (as all 21 references do) both in the information box and in the demographics section of the India page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think something along the lines of the British Foreign Office would be reasonable: "The official language of India is Hindi written in the Devanagari script. English has official status an 'associate language'. In addition, there are 21 official languages recognized by the constitution: Assamese, Bengali, Bodo, Dogri, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithili, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu?" Of course, it will have to be made more compact for the information box. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

PS None of the 16 secondary sources I cite above make a distinction between India and the Union of India (with the latter identified with the (Federal) Government of India) and I don't see why Wikipedia should either. In other words, there is no need (at least in the India article) to say that Hindi is the official language only of the "union," but not of India. That distinction (buttressed by secondary sources) could belong to the Official languages of India page, but does not belong to the India page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposal 2: First sentence of the India page (Names): There is a pretty good correspondence between the list of multilingual nations and their official languages (from Britannica) that I produced here and their names in Wikipedia (as displayed in the first sentence of their country pages). See: Kazakhstan, Algeria, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Switzerland, and Georgia. In light of this, the first sentence of the India page should read: "India (Hindi Bhārat; see also other names), officially the Republic of India, is a sovereign country in South Asia." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion (continued)

Questions to Lexmercatoria :

1. Isn't the 8th Schedule mainly concerned with 'regional' and 'classical' languages and not the Union as a whole and that explains why English is not included in it while Hindi is(since Hindi is also the state language of Himachal Pradesh, UP, MP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Uttarkhand...etc.)
2. Hence is it correct to refer to the 8th schedule like it is being used presently since English a 'associate language' of the Union is not included?
3. Is it wrong to mention - "Hindi is the principal official language along with English which is used a an 'associate' language of the Union. The Government also recognises 21 other languages" as per the Eighth schedule of its Constitution .(the quoted version is of World Book Encyclopedia(India, languages of) ISBN: 0-7166-6696-0.--KnowledgeHegemony 13:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. From the point of view of the Constitution, the Eighth Schedule is principally a list of languages whose speakers will input into the manner in which Hindi is developed - which makes it obvious as to why English isn't included. Since then, it's acquired an additional, extra-constitutional significance, described in the official languages article.

2. For the reasons I explained several days back, I'm not entirely convinced the Eighth Schedule is the appropriate source for listing India's "official" languages.

3. The term "associate" official language is not used in Indian law. The phrase used is "subsidiary official language." Most encyclopaedias and non-legal sources totally misunderstand the significance of the Eighth Schedule, and to say that the Government "recognises 21 other languages" is plain wrong - but I don't know any way to demonstrate this which doesn't involve what Wikipedia calls original research, so I guess for now we'll just have to live with the law being misstated both here and in the "official languages" article. -- Lexmercatoria 22:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

To Lexmercatoria: OK, How about "The official language of India is Hindi written in the Devanagari script. English has status as a 'subsidiary official language'. In addition, there are 21 languages recognized by the constitution: Assamese, Bengali, Bodo, Dogri, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithili, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

PS Here, BTW, (not for you Lex, but for others), is a good site Constitution of India: Provisions Relating to Languages Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

F&F good site just what the doc prescribed. BTW I would like to see views on F&F's proposal to the first line of the article. KnowledgeHegemony 12:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be a fairly accurate statement of the law. Are you thinking of it for this article or the official languages article? -- Lexmercatoria 22:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

PS. Lex, I think, KH is referring to proposal 2 above. (Both proposals apply to the India page, not Official languages of India page.) I have now changed the language of proposal 1 (in light of your comments above). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

<deindent>
F&F, I assume you are proposing the text for the demographics section, right ? If so, perhaps we can blend in both the official status and demographic information into the same set of sentences. Something along the following lines:

Proposal 1 (v3.0)
Hindi is spoken by around 40% of the Indian population, and is the official language of India. English, which is widely used in business and administration, has the status of a 'subsidiary official language'. The constitution also recognizes in particular 21 other languages that are widely spoken or have a classical status.

• The rough 40% statistic is from memory. I can look up the exact census information.
• I don't think listing 21 languages serves the reader of this article who will most likely brush over the list. So I would prefer linking to the relevant article instead.
• The above text will need copyediting and will need to be blended in with the remainder of the 2nd paragraph of the Demographics section.

My main motivation for proposing a change from F&F's v2.0, is that IMO the details of the official language status is just not important enough for this article to devote a whole paragraph to (think of all the differences between states and union territories that we gloss over). So we should try to make the information as unobtrusive as possible, while maintaining accuracy. Abecedare 01:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Abecedare, your version (Proposal 1 (v3.0) is great! One minor point: do we need the "in particular?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

What about the infobox? Should that too read: "Hindi (official language), English (subsidiary official language) and 21 other languages"? or should we list the 21 languages there? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

this discussion is a bit over the top at this point. Keep in mind: the largest five languages account for >70% of native speakers, the largest ten for >90% (this is not all that different from Switzerland, where the largest ten account for ca. 97%). Keep it brief. "Hindi, English, other" should do. dab (𒁳) 10:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Both seem fine to me, but can we simply say "Hindi is the most widely-spoken language in India, and is the official language of India..." The figure of 40% of the population includes the 22% of us who speak Hindi proper as our mother tongue and another 20% or so who speak one of the "Hindi languages", which include things like Rajasthani whose status as Hindi is questionable (I believe Rajasthan treats it as a separate language) and Maithili which is now constitutionally recognised as a separate language. See this detailed PDF from the census departament. "Most widely spoken" has the added advantage of taking second language speakers into account. It's not a major issue for me, so if others feel the 40% figure is better, I'm fine with it. -- Lexmercatoria 14:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Lex, Your revision sounds great. (And Abecedare, in any case, wasn't sure about the 40%). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

are we sure about the 40%? List of Indian languages by number of native speakers gives 40% Hindi first language Hindi speakers. But strangely the numbers given add up to some 170%, so that there seem to be a significant number of people with two or more "first languages". dab (𒁳) 14:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is where I apparently remembered the 40% from [7]. The numbers add up to 100%, so I guess they data refers to native language; the only downside is that the data is 16 year old. One advantage of mentioning the exact stat. is that most non-Indian (non-Swiss :-) ) readers will not expect a country's "official language" to be native to less than half the population, and therefore the data point is of interest. However, again, this is not the focus of the article and saying "most widely spoken" is also fine with me. Would someone like to take a stab at adding these sentences to the main article so that they read well with the rest of the paragraph ? Abecedare 18:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Off-topic clarification: Swiss German is still spoken by more than half of the population of Switzerland. I had always thought that German, French, Italian and Romansh accounted for more than 99% of the Swiss people. Anyway, I think Fowler has added your proposal to the page. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 02:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the Swiss bit was more a light-hearted reference to Dab than to the landlocked European nation !

I am happy with the edit that F&F made to the page [8]. A couple of quick notes though, (1) is there a way to avoid using the word widely in three consecutive sentences ? (2) it would be a good idea to add a reference for Hindi and English's status, before someone disputes the change or add a {{cn}} tag. Cheers. Abecedare 03:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the "widleys" too, but was too tired to do anything about it. I have now fixed it. Let me know if there are any problems. I removed "widely" altogether, since it implies that the language has wide geographic distribution (which, whether accurate or not, might bring up more objections or requests for citations). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Continued (more)

Okay, now that the demographics section is fixed what about the infobox(concerns regarding wrong use of 8th schedule) and the first line of the articleKnowledgeHegemony 06:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)?

For the infobox, there seems to be some agreement (Dab, Lex, F&f, K-H, ?) that it is best to keep it short, along the lines of:

Proposal 3: Infobox: Official Languages: Hindi, English, others.

As for the first line of the article, I think the wording of proposal 2 above is adequate for me, "India (Hindi Bhārat; see also other names), officially the Republic of India, is a sovereign country in South Asia." I have explained my reasons there. I think that there is adequate evidence (see here) that Hindi, among all Indian languages, has special status in the Constitution of India, and India's Hindi appellation belongs to the first sentence of its Wikipedia page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Fowler&fowler's proposal although I believe that the Devanagari script should be juxtaposed with Bharat in accordance with Article 343 of the Constitution of India:

“ The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script. ”

In light of this fact, the modified form of Proposal Two would read as follows: "India (Hindi: भारत Bhārat; see also other names), officially the Republic of India, is a sovereign country in South Asia." I hope this helps. Thanks to everyone who researched this topic. With regards, Anupam^Talk 19:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think there is any need for the Devanagari script. The scripts are there in the "other names". Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Fowler&fowler, I respect your opinion but do not agree with it. In India, Hindi is not official in the Roman script but in the Devanagari script. Since everything here is being aligned with the official positions of countries, it would only be correct if we gave the name Bharat in Devanagari. Please refer to articles of other countries which are all aligned with my position (i.e. Afghanistan, Japan, Lebanon, etc.) If you decide not to accept this modification to your proposal, I would need to offer my version as an entirely different proposal. Please let me know your feelings on the issue. With warm regards, Anupam^Talk 01:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, upon further reflection, I've changed my mind. I support your version (on account of the statement "Hindi in the Devanagari script" in the constitution). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind acceptance. Thus far, how many are aligned with proposal? Thanks in advance, Anupam^Talk 03:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Anupam's proposed version would be my first choice too. Abecedare 03:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Anupam's version gives me nothing to object. I support it too. KnowledgeHegemony 16:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Give me one good reason why should we insist on keeping the official languages section brief when we have given the option to "hide" the list. The list says "Hindi and English are the official languages of the union" which summarizes so called special treatment by our constitution. The "hide" option there actually hides the list making the infobox short, in case you didn't notice. Gnanapiti 21:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Hindi has special status in the constitution. I consulted with an expert who in turn provided me with citations of two experts. According to one of them, B. Mallikarjuna, Academic Secretary of the Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore, "Hindi in Devanagari script and the international form of Indian numerals form the Official language of the Union. Among the Indian languages, Hindi is the most highly empowered language which constitutionally/legally has multiple status - an official language of the Union; official language of 13 states and union territories; the major regional language in 9 states where it is a majority language, and an important minority language in 18 states and union territories. Also it is a language of deliberations of the Parliament of India and state legislatures in the states in which it is recognized as an official language. Apart from this, the Constitution also provides that, with mutual consent, any two states or the states and the Union can use it as a language for their inter- communication. It is the majority language of the country and also a Scheduled Language since it is in the VIIIth Schedule of the Constitution. It is the only language about whose development the Constitution has given direction, and hence it has the constitutional right for development." English is the "subsidiary official language." The order is Hindi, English and not English, Hindi (as you seem to revert to; it is not alphabetical). The other language are not official languages of India, but Schedule VII languages, which, as Lex has remarked many times above, provide input into how Hindi is to develop further. You are welcome to hide the other twenty one schedule 8 languages, but Hindi and English are separate; the link others does precisely that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• The fact that the Indian govt., has some special provisions for Hindi doesnt mean that we should accord special treatment to it on wikipedia(that explains the alphabetical ordering). And even with the special treatment accorded, there's many an if an but. Quite unlike an intuitive understanding of the phrase "Official language of the Union", Hindi's status is not one of unqualified, all pervasive nature. There is far too much fine print involved there for us to go into in this article and therefore listing the remaining "Official languages of the states" helps to put things in perspective. And in any case, they are all wrapped in a collapsible box and not taking up space(if somebody can make the box "collapsed" by default, it would be great). Just mentioning English and Hindi is not adhering to NPOV. Sarvagnya 23:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• And in any case, it is English and not Hindi that has a pre-eminent position across spheres of administration, judiciary, constitution etc., not to mention business, industry and daily life. Majority of the states use English to communicate with the union government and circumvent the need for Hindi. The highest court of the land uses English. The constitution itself is written in English - not Hindi. An overwhelming majority of the states(except the Ups and Bihars) use English to communicate among themselves. Even in public sector undertakings, Hindi is 'encouraged' but English is non-negotiable. Sarvagnya 23:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

We are not talking about "language and society," but rather about "official languages," which, for better or worse, are determined by legislations of governments (or at least by constitutional changes made by governments). For this reason, the United States infobox's "official language" slot, if it had one, would have to be left blank (or say "none"), even though English is the predominant language of the country. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

"..We are not talking about "language and society,..." - And who said we are?! Take your straw man arguments and tangential babble elsewhere. Sarvagnya 20:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

English in "administration, judiciary, constitution, ... business, industry and daily life!" What is that if not language and society? And who gave those examples Sarvagyna? It wasn't me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, I understand your point but the GOI does get to determine India's official language, and as has been now established through a multitude of secondary and tertiary sources, Hindi is referred to as such. But you are correct in stating that there is more to the issue than a simple label and that is the reason I think the Infobox should list "Hindi¹, English² and others" rather than simply "Hindi" (which would be technically correct, but misleading). In fact IMO linking to the Official languages of India is preferable to just dumping a list of languages, since it better serves the reader in understanding the complicated situation. And as for English's use in administration and government, I'll be the first to acknowledge that fact (see my "Proposal 1 V3.0") above, but it is completely irrelevant to the "Official Language" status. If, say, a new government in all its wisdom declared Esperanto to be India's official language, wikipedia will have to parrot that information, even if only 10 Indians spoke in the tongue. Abecedare 03:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

If we do not follow the the 'Constitution' and the GOI for 'official' matters then what are we supposed to... can you give a solution???? I can't understand what's the confusion all about? KnowledgeHegemony 15:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward constructively

I outlined three possible approaches to the Official Languages issue in the infobox in the Official languages section above. Just listing the languages of the Eighth Schedule without a footnote explaining what role they have is, in my opinion, misleading. But subject to that, any one of those three options is fine by me. Can we please discuss the merits and demerits of each of the three, without getting sidetracked, and try and arrive at agreement on which of them we will use.

To make the discussion easier, these are the options which I feel represent the legal position correctly:

1. We can list all languages that are used by any state as official languages. But this will create a practical problem because the list at Official languages of India is still not completely reliable. I have been trying to check it and correct the mistakes, but it is difficult to get access to State Acts for all states so it is likely to take a very long time.
2. We can change the entry to say: "Hindi and English at the Central level, various others."
3. We can list the languages in the Eighth Schedule (as we have now, but adding Bodo), and add a clearer note. The list would then read:

"Hindi, English, Assamese, Bengali, Bodo, Dogri, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithili, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santhali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu (see note†)"

And the note would read:

"†Hindi and English are the official languages of the Union, the other 22 are represented on teh Official Language Commission and have other privileges. In addition, each State has its own official languages."

To start off, perhaps everybody could state which of these versions they prefer, which they can live with, and specific objectiosn they have to any of them? -- Lexmercatoria 00:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I have made my stance clear already. I want go for option 3. I don't understand what is the problem when we are providing a footnote clearly stating the status of Hindi and English. As I have said earlier, India is federal union of states and Delhi alone doesn't represent whole of India. Gnanapiti 00:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)!

Well, I'm not sure I like any of the three options. The version we were discussing above is:

Hindi, English, others

The link "others," which now links to the "Schedule 8" section of the "Official languages of India" page, both describes and lists the schedule 8 languages. I think this is both accurate and jibes with other secondary sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a nice, compact solution. deeptrivia (talk) 03:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I second deeptrivia. KnowledgeHegemony 15:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I concur. Isn't it true that the "set of languages used as official by the union government, any state or UT" is not the same as the "set of languages listed in the 8th schedule"  ? For example, I don't think Sanskrit is the official language of any state or UT (please correct me if I am wrong) and French is an official language of Poducherry [9]. So listing the 22, 8th schedule languages shouldn't even be an option for the "Official Language" field of the infobox. Abecedare 04:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, in theory you can answer any UPSC exam in Sanskrit, although I don't expect very many people have taken that option. But apart from that, the Eighth Schedule has absolutely nothing to do with official languages at the State level. Some of them happen to be official, others aren't, and there are languages which are official in particular states which aren't in the Eighth Schedule. I personally also don't think "Hindi, English, others" describes the situation accurately, but there's really no point flogging a horse that's dead, beaten to a pulp, and virtually indistinguishable from the ground. I'm going to try to persuade one of my academic friends to write an article that properly describes India's language policy, but until then I'm happy to abide by whatever the rest of you can agree upon (and spend my time actually finishing the rewrite of the article on Kesavananda Bharati which I've been working on). -- Lexmercatoria 16:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Lex, Well, how about

Hindi, English, others

This is a more compact version of your option 3. Sorry, the previous footnotes are getting repeated, but I don't know how to fix this.Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

And what exactly is the reason that you want to go for a "compact" solution when things can be made much more clear with addition of just a few more words? Are we discussing about making this article more informative and a better one anymore? Gnanapiti 03:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is my take: Linking to the Official languages of India is preferable to just dumping a list of languages, since it better serves the reader in understanding the complicated situation. Explaining the nuanced position (which I don't think can be done in a few words) in a detailed article is superior to listing of raw data. Abecedare 04:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about not dumping Hindi and English in the list, instead give link to Official languages of India letting the reader not get confused with complicated situation? I'm OK with this proposal of mine too. Gnanapiti 18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Adding everything everywhere will result in the article that's 10000kb.....we should have a more logical approach of classifying what is needed and what is not..so linking Official languages of India is a better solution. Its not that we are ignoring other scheduled languages. KnowledgeHegemony 15:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't give doublespeak arguments like this. They are not going to help this discussion. No one is asking to add everything everywhere. As I said, I'm OK with my proposal of linking the whole section to Official languages of India rather than dumping Hindi and English, thus making the things less complicated. Gnanapiti 18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ok. Since the nuance between the languages of the eighth schedule and the 'official' languages has been reiterated.. I feel, its fair not to list the languages of the eighth schedule. But... but.. all languages that are "official" languages of states should be mentioned in the infobox along with English and Hindi. There will, of course be appropriate accompanying footnotes. And all of this will be in a collapsible box, which I prefer, stays 'collapsed' by default. If this is not possible, then we can as well refrain from mentioning any language and just point readers to Official languages of India coz "No info is better than misleading info".
• The constitution provides for any state to totally sidestep Hindi if it so wishes. For example, a state like Tamil Nadu or Karnataka will use English with every entity(state, center, supreme court, parliament...) outside of its own state. And within their own states they use their own chosen languages.
• Otoh, it is with English that there is no escape. A state like UP or Bihar is constitutionally bound to communicate in English with a state like Ktaka or TN, Andhra, Bengal etc.,. No amount of whining 'Hindi is the official language of the union' will cut any ice.
• In the light of the above, just matter of factly stating that Hindi is the official language of the union is grossly misleading and totally at odds with an intuitive understanding of the phrase. There is a reason why the constitution conspicuously avoided declaring any language 'national'. India's case is probably unique in this regard and drawing parallels with the United States(where English is the "national" language) or any others is specious.
• And in any case, I cant understand what the hell some of the ones nitpicking here are trying to prove. Is it some dyed in the wool bias against anything non-Hindi? Or is it because they grew up 'believing' that Hindi was the "national" language? If people are game to put "others" in the box, what is the problem in 'expanding' the "others" and then wrapping them all up in a compact collapsible box?! Or is it that the few extra bytes that will get added to the article size(and lead it to self destruct) that so worries our self styled watchdog? Sarvagnya 20:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I am glad to see that you agree that 8th schedule is irrelevant as far as "Official language" is concerned. I would also encourage you to avoid bringing up "National language" since that is a red herring, as no one is proposing that we label Hindi as the "National language". By the way, English is not the "national or official language" of US either; recent attempts at declaring it the "national" or "common" language failed too. [10]. Finally as Lex, Dab and others has pointed out earlier there is currently no verifiable list of official languages of the state. Abecedare 21:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

A verifiable list of official languages used by the states and UTs shouldnt be difficult to gather at all. Most of them are well known and where there are doubts we can certainly check on their official websites. If still, we fail to make a complete list(I cant see why that'd happen) we can list whatever we have gathered and the rest can be added as and when we are able to gather them. And I wasnt using "national" language as a red herring at all. I was just replying to Fowler(I think) who brought in the comparison with US. And when I said English was the natl lang of US, I was going by wikipedia article. And even from the link you gave above.. I think it is clear that English is indeed the national language of US though the debate really seems to be about what "national" is. And in any case, I dont think different states in the US use different languages in administration. Some of them may use Spanish in addition to English, but they all use English. Sarvagnya 21:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's proving quite difficult for me. Karnataka is famously IT savvy, but most other states don't seem to be. If you have the time, it would be great if you could pitch in and verify the information at Official languages of India#States with citations to reliable sources (a good bit of what's there at the moment seems wrong). I've been working my way through the list, but it's very slow going. -- Lexmercatoria 18:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Doesn't cut it, Sarvagyna. You can ramble on all you want, but the article is not about the states; it is about India. The official language(s) of India are Hindi (and English). The best you can get is Hindi, English, and "other," with the "other" linked to a soon-to-be-created "Official languages of Indian states," which you and your cohorts can have a ball with. If you don't agree, I will take this to an RfC and also to the village pump. I guarantee you I have the experts and the secondary sources on my side, and you don't. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

What is this, some kind of a threaten or something? Why do you always involve in editing in bad faith? What do you mean by this article is not about states? If states doesn't make up India, then what does? This article is not about Government of India either. If Karnataka doesn't adopt Hindi as official language and uses Kannada for all it's administrative and official purposes, does that mean Karnataka is not part of India? And I remind you that Karnataka is not the only state that doesn't use Hindi as official. The very sentence The best you can get is Hindi, English, and "other," with the "other" linked to a soon-to-be-created "Official languages of Indian states," which you and your cohorts can have a ball with. shows whole purpose of your editing in Wikipedia. It's clear that you are not interested in making this project a better one, instead involved in pushing your own vendetta. Again don't even try to threaten. It's not going to help us in anyway. Gnanapiti 00:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the link to Karnataka official language act, 1963 and here is the bill passed in 1981 that extended the use of Kannada Language as official in the day to day administration of all the local authorities. Gnanapiti 00:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If he had to push his own vendetta he would'nt have come up with all those sources and this discussion. KnowledgeHegemony 17:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that India has like 24 national languages. But I dont think the Infobox should be long enough to list them all. I do feel that Hindi and English should be listed, and a link to the other ones can be present. Otherwise, the infobox will be too long. Anyway, please keep in mind that there are only 3 edits per day per page. Anyway, so the toda hut image... (The culture section has two pics, both relating to architecture) Nikkul 12:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I find the "Hindi English Other option the most apt. The "best of both worlds" kind. Also the most accurate, in my opinion. You get all the languages mentioned.AJ-India 03:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this compromise (proposed and) effected by user Knowledge-Harmony is reasonable: it mentions all the languages explicitly and it singles out and separates Hindi and English as official languages of the union. I think this is the most accurate as well, since (as users Lexmercatoria, Sarvagyna and others have pointed out) India is a little different from other multilingual countries where the official language of the union is shared as an official state language with the predominant language of the region.) I have made some changes in K-H's edits (in keeping with earlier discussions here).

As for user: Gnanapiti's allegation that I am promoting my own biases here, all I can say is that as late as June 28 (see my post towards the end of the discussion above), I was saying, "... (a) keep only the English, or (b) English and Hindi (as official languages), or (c) 23 languages, or (d) bag the 'ganarajya' and simply keep the Bharat." It was only when I began to read the secondary sources, which seemed unanimous in their characterizations, that I was reluctantly driven to my current position. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

PS I should add that reading the secondary sources was a learning experience for me. Although I was aware that from the early days of the Independence struggle, the Indian National Congress had worked hard to promote an indigenous official language for the (eventually) independent country, I wasn't aware how the process actually unfolded early on; in particular, I wasn't aware of the role played by the Indian civil services immediately after independence in subverting the process (before the "official language" issue became a political one in the early 1960s). See the excerpts below from the paper of David Laitin, which is well worth reading in its entirety.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That article sounds fascinating, but they want me to pay an obnoxious 32 USD to get access. Extortionists. It's at times like this that I regret not staying on in academia after my Ph.D. - I really miss the free access to academic databases. -- Lexmercatoria 18:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You can ask F&F, who I assume has it downloaded, to email you the article. If he is busy with other stuff, I'd be happy to look it up for you. Abecedare 19:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, send me (WP) email and I'll send you the pdf. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

I found that this section contains an incorrect, literally imperfect quotation from an external reference 11. And this is a subject of conflict in terms of interpretation by the readers of Wikipedia.

Am quoting the exact text from the currently existing page under the heading Etymology:

The Constitution of India and common usage in various Indian languages also recognise Bharat (pronunciation (info), IPA: [/bʰɑːrət̪/]) as an official name of equal status. Hindustan (/hin̪d̪ust̪ɑːn/ (info)), which is the Persian word for “Land of the Hindus” and historically referred to northern India is also occasionally used as a synonym for all of India.[11]

The reference to "Land of the Hindus" to "historically referred to northern India is not entirely correct considering different interpretations readers can take, and is a deviation of the policy in use within Wikipedia, in my opinion. This is because the actual quote in reference 11 (which says refers to Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. (2007). Retrieved on 2007-06-18.) gives this :

The name Hindustan is sometimes defined as north of the Vindhya mountains. It is also occasionally used as a synonym for all of India.

Therefore I request concerned approvers to approve a change in the wording / phrasing of the text detailed above.

Thank you.

—Ssenthilprabhu 04:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, maybe we are looking at a different page. See the linked page [11], which states, "... also spelled Hindusthan (Persian: “Land of the Hindus”), historically, northern India, in contrast to the Deccan, or southern India. This area can be defined more particularly as the basin of the five Punjab rivers and the upper Gangetic Plain.". Abecedare 04:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Taj Mahal

The Taj Mahal is one of the seven wonders of the world now. Please change that on the page.

Also, the Taj Mahal page is having a vote on whether or not to include this new recognition [of the taj being one of the seven new wonders] (even though 100 million people voted (the most populous global decision in the history of man)). Please input your opinion. Nikkul 15:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

"Seven wonders of the world now." Hmm. Unfortunately, the Seven wonders of the world which really refer to the seven wonders of the Ancient World were named long before Shahjahan met Mumtaz Mahal and impregnated her enough times (17) to eventually cause her death for which he was famously remorseful. I don't know what Seven Wonders you are talking about, but every so often, some tourist company, or some TV channel, in a bid to drum up more business or boost their ratings, draws up a "Seven Wonders" list. But these lists are ephemeral, which the Taj is not and best not associated with. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that a vote by 100 million people around the world is more likely to represent the seven wonders of the world than some Greek guy sailing around the Mediteranian and calling anything out of the ordinary a Wonder of the World. Six of them dont even exist! The vote was the largest global decision in the history of man. It has been acknowledged by the whole world. Go to any news site in the world, the story is there! This is a global campaign. You can not just assume that this is some tourist company looking to drum up business. All the news sites say that its a nonprofit organization. The Taj has been named a new wonder of the world by a very well known and accepted campaign. It's real. It's global. We're going to have to accept it. Nikkul 22:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This current commericial exercise does not in any way affect the original seven wonders of the world, and is definitely less notable. It is clearly not notable enough to deserve any mention on this article. deeptrivia (talk) 00:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

We don't want this article to suffer from WP:RECENT. A sentence is already mentioned on the Taj article. The Taj itself shouldn't get too much coverage on this page since there is so much other important information to be told. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 06:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like to note that WP: RECENT is "only an essay. It is not a policy or a guideline" It merely reflects the opinions of the author. Nikkul 17:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll use a policy to support my point. We will be giving WP:UNDUE weight to a recent fad that will die away in a couple of years. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 22:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

100 million people voted or there were 100 million votes? Big difference... Everything I've read says 'a poll of 100 million votes' and anyone could vote an unlimited number of times. Finally, the poll was not supported by international groups such as UNESCO because it reflects "only the opinions of those with access to the internet"[12]. BURNyA 23:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Not just people with internet, but people who knew about it. Unlike a national election where it may not be compulsory but at least everyone is notified about it, people must have known about this poll only through advertising. It is not universal. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I honestly didn't know about it until after it was over. I watch national news and CNN.com, listen to XM talk radio when I'm in my car, and I'm on the internet all day at work. Either I was in the wrong places at the wrong times, or just didn't pay enough attention, or it just wasn't big enough. BURNyA 01:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Indic Tag

The Indic tag is very disruptive. I think it should be moved somewhere else so that its not at the top. I have not seen one site with a tag and an info box under it. I definately think the info box should be at the top since it relates more to india than the tag which relates to the article (the wiki page) not its subject. Nikkul 17:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I have seen it attached to the bottom of the infobox in language infoboxes. Can you try that somehow then I don't have a problem. --KnowledgeHegemony 09:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Languages in the infobox

Just a small point, it looks a bit untidy... The bold text "Union" should be lined up with "Official Languages". Not a bit point but oh well. Speedboy Salesman 11:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Gnanapiti's edit comments on the "States and others" versus "States" issue: It is incorrect to say that "All languages listed are official languages of respective states." Sanskrit, Kashmiri and Sindhi are not official in any Indian state. In addition, Khasi and Garo are official languages in Meghalaya, but aren't in the list. So "States" is probably a misleading label. (This, by the way, is why I have reservations about using the Eighth Schedule as the criterion for bunging languages into the infobox). -- Lexmercatoria 18:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree my edit summary was a mistake. But apart from those three languages that you've pointed out the rest are all official languages of states. If we have a strong reference that Khasi and Garo are official languages of Meghalaya, I believe we need to add them to the list. Gnanapiti 19:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Following Sarvagnya's suggestion, I have listed all the Official state languages in the infobox rather than the 8th schedule languages, which as has been discussed before are irrelevant/inaccurate in this context. I have based my inclusions on the Official_languages_of_India page. Since the information in that article is yet unverified, I would highly encourage everyone to help in finding appropriate sources for the official state languages, so that we can be certain that we are providing accurate information on the main India page!

PS: On my screen the collapsible box listing the languages is uncollapsed by default. is that true for others too, and if so, does anyone know how to change the default ? Abecedare 19:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm in the process of finding citations for all states, but it's taking time.

Re the collapsible box, according to this, it should be possible by using 'class="navbox collapsible collapsed"'. That would mean making a version of the "collapsible list" template which uses this class. The template is terrifyingly complex, so maybe someone with more experience could try? -- Lexmercatoria 20:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The puzzling part is that Vancouver uses the same template (i.e. {{Collapsible list}} ) as the India page in it's infobox, but they appear collapsed by default. So, as you say, the issue is best handled by someone who really understands the mechanics. Abecedare 21:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I found a page which says that lists collapse by default if there are two or more collapsible lists in the same infobox. Vancouver seems to have two, as does South Africa. -- Lexmercatoria 21:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it turns out that for this page, three lists make the default=collapse. So, I've added a third category, "Classical" and listed Sanskrit and Tamil there. The boxes are now in the collapsed state. I took out "Union" from the title because all the secondary sources list Hindi and English as the Official languages of the country. The "union" part is explained in the collapsed asterisked footnote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

PS I'm guessing that Sanskrit and Tamil are not official languages, but perhaps Lexmercatoria can find some way to list them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes "classical language" is a 'tag' and has little.. nothing infact, to do with "official"ness or a language's status as an administrative language or some such. Also, it is a tag that the Indian government conjured on the fly(bowing to political pressure) and it is at odds with both the "scholarly" and "intuitive" definitions and understanding of the term. If the govt., wishes, any of the 1600 or so languages can be 'declared' "classical" by day break tommorrow. Doesnt mean a thing. And in any case, discuss edits like these before you make them... or at the very least, like Gnanapiti says, dont shoot your mouth off in edit summaries at the first hint of opposition. Sarvagnya 03:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. I can introduce an extra collapsible box in the economy section and make all the boxes collapse in default. What upsets me is that both you, Sarvagyna and your new cohort Ganapita, revert first and discuss later. As far as I am concerned you are two of the rudest, the most discourteous, churlish, and graceless people I have had the depressing privilege of meeting on Wikipedia. If Ganapiti had not automatically reverted (with edit summary "illogical"), but discussed here first and explained that Sanskrit is not official (something I realized myself), the page would not have been locked up. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Only if you had asserted your royal presence here in talk page first discussing the edits that you were going to make when you very well know that we've been working on that particular section of the article for long time now. Thanks to great efforts by User:Lexmercatoria, User:Abecedare and some part me in Official languages of India, we've been collecting sources for all official languages and reflecting them in the article. So this edit by you without any discussion sure seemed illogical to me. By the way I see that you have new cohert now who has never ever touched this article before and now jumps right in and reverts without any explanation! Gnanapiti 04:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Fowler - for starters, your chronic misspelling of my username is getting as old as it is juvenile. So cut the crap first. And do I have to remind you that it is you who has appropriated the moral high ground on this and every talk page you frequent. You have stonewalled the simplest of edits for weeks on end with your non-stop drivel and driven many an editor to despair. It is then, a bit rich of you to call us names... more so after I just warned you to "cease and desist". Several editors like Nikkul(for all his faults) and U=a, KH and many others in the past have been at the receiving end of your snobbery. You have given me nothing to smile about either. I can say to you all the things that you've just said about me and I can say that with conviction. Not out of spite. It is you who has been driving well meaning editors away with your "this is a FA... all edits have to be discussed... do not edit before discussion" nonsense for over 6 months now. So you better clam up and practise what you preach. 'nuff said. Sarvagnya 05:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, "discourteous, churlish, and graceless." What else is "cut the crap," "nonstop drivel," "nonsense," and "you better clam up?" This talk page is littered with other examples of your truculent language. It is true that I have raised the bar on this page, but my allegiance is always to the reliable secondary sources, and I have produced them time and time again (of which the "official language secondary sources" was but one example). As for misspelling your name, please accept my apologies. I am a bad speller, especially of unusual names. You could have left a little note on my talk page like others have done here and here, but regardless, the fault is mine. My apologies again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, we all have worked diligently on this topic and found sources, presented robust arguments and discussed every aspect in detail. Now that we have finally come to what seems to be a consensus position (i.e. listing Hindi, English + all the official state languages in a collapsible box), lets not a few minor differences and momentary hot-bloodedness spoil what should be a time of mutual congratulations. If (as I think) we all are agreed on a common position, perhaps we can ask Blnguyen to unlock the page.
PS: I too think that Classical languages are irrelevant to the topic of official languages, but my guess is that F&F was trying it out just to see if the infoboxes could be collapsed by default by adding a third collapsible list. Even if my reading of his past reasoning is wrong, from the comment above it appears that F&f now agrees that we need not include those languages in the infobox, right ? Abecedare 05:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Your reading is correct. I was trying to be helpful, seeing that people were not able to make the darn boxes collapse, and explained so immediately on the talk page, but ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, How is the infobox in the collapsible box below? I have collapsed the non-numbered footnotes. This might be useful, especially later on, if the number of footnotes increase. Note also that I have changed the infobox footnotes to symbols, to avoid confusion with numbered footnotes which link to references. All the lists now collapse by default. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

---

"Influence of India on the world"

The section is unsourced, POV and a list of quotes. Wikipedia is WP:NOT Wikiquote. I'll remove it. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 10:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hair trigger protection

I'm really surprised at such quick action taken by the admin Blnguyen in protecting this article. Was there vandalism or extended edit warring? I didn't see any. There were precisely three reverts, of those two were by the Kannada tag team. Can the esteemed admin please explain here in the talk page the reasons behind his action? Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 05:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I left a post on his page explaining the situation. I can't imagine the protection will last for too long. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Good News (perhaps)

Some good news related to the India page: I have gotten the India article in the Simple English Wikipedia to "Very Good Article" status (which is their equivalent of FA status). The article itself can be seen here and the VGA candidacy review here. I just thought that the editors of this article would be interested in some good news after the weeks of edit warring and talk page conflicts. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 11:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Very nice work. Congratulations! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that in many ways this article is more representative of India than the one here. Good job.--Blacksun 09:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

I have been away for bit and I have no time to follow the pages of discussion on the languages you guys have been having but from what I have read so far, I am afraid that you guys are walking a very fine line. Please keep in mind that you do not indulge in original research. For instance,
1) In most cases you cannot tell us what the constitution means but have to cite usage and interpretation.
2) I also read some comment about how "classical language" tag is meaningless; something trumped up by the government for political reason. I don't give a hoot what you think might be the reasons behind it. Your analysis of the significance of the status of a language as deemed by GoI has very little bearing here. Regarding, no one in academia agreeing with the choice of Tamil as a classical language - here is one scholar who disagrees with your assessment.
3) For the life of me, I fail to see why the article is attempting to list all the official state languages instead of the ones in the 8th schedule. Now you have French which is not a major language elevated to the same status as major languages like Tamil, Gujarati, Marathi, Assamese etc. Presenting the list in the format you guys seem to be going for can be argued as original research.
--Blacksun 14:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Blacksun, that sage piece by that 'scholar' is brandished in my face almost every second day on wikipedia. Everybody has an opinion and Mr. Hart has his. And I am not even going to debate his opinion here. And in any case, where have I said that Tamil is undeserving of the tag? That the 'eligibility requirement'(sic) was changed from an antiquity of 1000 years to 1500 years soon after Tamil got the tag, has its own tale to tell though.

That said, it is no secret that the very category of 'classical' languages was created by the govt., under political pressure. The category didnt even exist until 3 years ago. And it is no coincidence that the category was created soon after the present secular govt., came to power with the support of our friends from Kumari Kandam. It was part of the CMP to 'accord' Tamil the 'status' and to do that, they had to 'conjure this on the fly'. All this is plain as day to anyone except those from the lost continent. You can gloat over a certain language's status all you want, but that wont change reality. And you dont have to take my word for all this.

As for my comment that it is at odds with scholarly definitions of the term, well.. it is. And that is the reason, Classical language doesnt redirect to Classical languages of India. Sarvagnya 17:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, his opinion is more credible + relevant than yours. --Blacksun 09:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep it simple

Let's stick to the Official languages of the Union and the 8th Schedule. And since both Tamil and Sanskrit are included in the 8th Sch., their entries in the infobox can be like Tamil(also classical), Sanskrit(classical). I wonder (just like Blacksun) why do we need to have official languages of individual states. KnowledgeHegemony 16:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how the classical status of Sanskrit and Tamil is relevant information for the Official languages field in the infobox. To me that is akin to appending Bharat Ratna after A.P.J Abdul Kalam in the President field of the infobox; which again is true and a high honour but irrelevant in the context. Abecedare 16:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but similarly it is also irrelevant to include all the official languages used in the individual states. KnowledgeHegemony 16:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

KH, we don't really disagree. If I recall correctly, the first preference for both of us is to simply include "Hindi, English, others" with appropriate footnotes and links; although we can live with listing all the official state languages too. Anyway, I am sensing a feeling of deja vu all over again :-) Abecedare 17:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

(ec)No it is not. An "official" language is reasonably and intuitively associated, among other things with a language that is used in administration and as the preceding discussions have shown, it is only fair that we list them. From what I understand, the languages of the eighth schedule is like a pool of 'potential' official languages. Seen from that perspective, if there is consensus, I am not really averse to listing them too.(That will even help us take care of the "collapsible" issue). Sarvagnya 17:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No your understanding is wrong. Language of 8th schedule are the languages that have federal support in their growth and are overly important than say French which is a residue language from colonial times and mostly has its status because no one has bothered revoking the treaty in the state. Sorry, but having a list where all the major languages are at same status as French is stupid and you are going to have a serious fight over it. You seem to like to think that federally deemed status of languages has no relevance but I have to respectfully disagree. This is an article on India - not on individual states. 8th schedule languages by their very nature are far more relevant than the list you guys have built which makes me feel like pulling my hair. --Blacksun 09:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but including the Eighth Schedule under the heading "official languages" is plain wrong. That box is to list official languages, not languages which are "supported", and the languages of the Eighth Schedule aren't "official languages" in any sense of the term. And this isn't "Original Research", it is well borne out in the scholarly literature. Dr. Mallikarjun of CIIL describes the significance of the Eighth Schedule quite well in this paper:

The languages of the Schedule have preferential treatment, and the languages listed in this schedule are considered first for any and almost every language development activity, and are bestowed with all facilities including facilities to absorb language technology initiatives of the government. It is needless to mention that the Technology Development in Indian Languages (TDIL) did not, and under present circumstances would not percolate beyond these languages.

"Preferentially treated" does not equal "official".

I think many of us here think that some version of "Hindi, English, others" is fine, but there are also a number who think that that formulation doesn't accurately reflect the linguistic diversity of India. Including the official languages of the States (which are "official" within India in at least some sense) was the best compromise we could find. If you have any better ideas, please put them forward. If you insist on the Eighth Schedule, then we'll need to make a separate section for it. It can't go into the "Official languages" section because languages like Sanskrit, Kashmiri and Sindhi are not official in any sense of the term. -- Lexmercatoria 10:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

That depends on how you define official. What exactly is the 8th schedule? To me (and many others) it is a defacto list of official languages which is also a good compromise. When the government went to the trouble of making a list of significant languages how in the hell can that not be considered official? Who are you to define official in this context?? Adding state language is downright ridiculous and misleading due to presence of many minor languages in individual state official languages. You are redefining something that has always been defined in another way. If you ever read any article in a newspaper or magazine they will mention 8th schedule languages as official languages besides English and Hindi. Sanskrit, Kashmiri and Sindhi are far more official in India than French. I reject your argument 8th schedule (federal) is less significant or official than state languages in an article on Indian union. How is it not original research when by adding state languages under official language tag on an article of Indian union implies that they have a federal status? --Blacksun 11:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

We've been over this a thousand times. If you can't be bothered to read this page or the articles I cite, that's your loss. I'm not going to to rehash it. If you want to call Sanskrit an official language, go right ahead. It's no skin of my back if Wikipedia becomes a laughing stock - as it will if it says Sanskrit is an "official language" in India. Good luck. -- Lexmercatoria 20:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, if you care to take a look at this article, you will see that the DMK is actually trying to have the languages of the Eighth Schedule declared official languages. Now why would the DMK need to do that if the languages are already official, as you claim? You might want to think that over. -- Lexmercatoria 21:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and here's a quote from the current UPA Government's common minimum programme:

"The UPA Government will set up a committee to examine the question of declaring all languages in the Eight Schedule of the Constitution as official languages."

So, why would they need to examine this question if the languages were already official languages? If this doesn't conclusively establish the fact that they are not currently official languages, I have no idea what will. -- Lexmercatoria 21:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thats perfectly in line with my understanding as I've stated above(or was it below?) somewhere. The languages of the eighth schedule are 'potential' official languages... but not official just yet. As for why official state languages should be mentioned, well simply because in India's case, it is not as open and shut as "Hindi and English". Blacksun is requested to read the discussions on this page. Also, M. V. Pylee, an expert, deals with the situation in a chapter dedicated to dissecting and explaining the official language issue in his book here. Sarvagnya 22:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's is what it would look like if all three—union, states, and 8th schedule—were included. I have added explanatory notes for each group (instead of footnotes), since they immediately provide the context for listing the group; otherwise, the eyes begin to glaze over at the prospect of deciphering the rationale for such a surfeit of languages. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No, No, and No. You guys are amusing. I read everything you have linked but you know what? NONE OF IT even remotely comes close to saying that state languages are more official than 8th schedule languages, speaking in the context of India. 8th schedule is far more official than state languages. Even the papers you have posted support this view. Furthermore, DMK seems to argue towards making 8th schedule to have the same status as Hindi and English. But the fact remains that in the context of India, 8th schedule list is far more significant than list of state languages. --Blacksun 23:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Given down is my proposal for the infobox. I haven't provided detailed explanation or footnotes for now. They can be added accordingly at a later time. This format gives the exact idea of status of languages IMO. Gnanapiti 21:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No. As I have stated many times above, all the secondary sources say that Hindi and English are the "official languages" of the country. When Britannica, Encarta, the UN, UNESCO, US Government, UK Foreign Office, etc (see my 15 secondary sources), talk about the official languages of the country, they mean the union (whether or not the states have their separate official languages). In the first box, Hindi and English have to be out in the open (not collapsed under "union") as I have indicated in my proposed infobox (whether or not you want the explanatory notes or not). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No, their is no need to make a list of official state languages. It is rather an overkill in the context of India article. Not to mention it will be hard to maintain in future as it is definitely more fluid than the other two. Just dont bother with it. Please for once try to keep things simple instead of over analyzing everything. --Blacksun 09:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

No. The article is titled India, not Indian States. Official languages of the country India only IMMHO. Moriori 09:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Final Proposal for Languages in Infobox

To Lexmercatoria, Abecedare, Sarvagnya, Gnanapati, Blacksun, Knowledge-Hegemony, and others: Here is the one more (hopefully last) infobox. It has collapsing boxes for "Official Languages," with Hindi, English, and the Official States Languages and it has a collapsing box for "Other Languages" which has 8th schedule languages. As a consequence of this tripartite choice, a lot of languages end up being listed, and many listed twice; I have therefore provided a sentence at the top of each list that explains what the list is about. (Lex. and others: please feel free to alter these sentences if you think they are not accurate.) If the consensus is to not include the 8th schedule languages, then their box can be easily deleted. As for myself, all I care about (per secondary sources) is that Hindi and English are listed. Beyond that, whatever combination of collapsible boxes is arrived at in the consensus, is fine, and can be accommodated in the infobox.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

KnowledgeHegemony 15:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Your version too is fine too (with me); however, I'm guessing that some people might object to 8th schedule languages being listed under official. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No sorry, I disagree with it. It is downright silly to state list when most of it overlaps with 8th schedule. It is very simple: You CANNOT do ORIGINAL research here. State languages by themselves have no federal status. 8th schedule languages, on the other hand, have a clearly defined federal status. Considering the list largely overlaps - you put the 8th and discard the bs list you guys have compiled which you will not find on ANY other India related article and for a good reason. For example, take a quick look at CIA fact boook - what does it state as India's official languages besides English and Hindi. MY, OH MY - the original 8th schedule languages. If you guys want to do research go join a research group and publish. This is not the place. Adding state languages under official language tag on an article on Indian union implies that they have a federal status which I think is not true. Having said this, I can live with the choice presented by KnowledgeHegemony but absolutely no to yours Fowler. Apologies. --Blacksun 10:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't know if I should laugh or cry, since I am merely trying to be flexible to accommodate the disparate views (and the OR part seems strangely familiar, as you will see from my "Original Research?" section above :) ). I do think that you should read the extended discussion above, since there is a danger of it being repeated here. As I have repeatedly said above, for the purposes of the infobox, all I care about is that Hindi and English be listed first and separately (in accordance with the reliable secondary sources). Beyond that I am happy with many variations. Here are a few options:

1. "Official Languages: Hindi, English, States" This would result if you removed the 8th schedule collapsible box in my infobox.

2. "Official Languages: Hindi, English. Other Languages: Eighth Schedule" (this would get around the problem of calling the 8th schedule languages "official") This version would result if you deleted the "states" collapsible box in my last infobox above.

3. Mention Hindi, English, States under "Official" and 8th schedule under "Other." This is the most general version of my infobox.

4. Knowledge-Hegemony's version above.

5. Mention only Hindi and English.

Could the others (Lexmercatoria, Abecedare, K-H, Sarvagnya, Gnanapati, ... ) please respond. Please also indicate which version you would prefer. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Fowler, I did not mean anything personally. I have immense respect for your work. However, the infobox you showed implies state as an official language of Indian union. You will need citations for that. I personally prefer option 3 or 4.--Blacksun 00:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

We've already been through this whole thing and doesn't make any sense to go round and round in circles. I've already presented my arguments and also my proposed version of infobox, which still I stick to. Now, I leave the issue with well informed editors like User:Lexmercatoria and User:Abecedare who have worked so hard towards this project. Let them see all versions of infobox, arguments behind them and come to a conclusion on whatever is appropriate for this article. I request Blacksun to go through the entire discussion in this page and Talk:Official languages of India to make sure he understands what we are trying to achieve. Gnanapiti 14:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you should go find a source that I requested in Talk:official languages of India instead of worrying about me catching up with your past discussions.--Blacksun 00:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not worrying about you. I don't even care whether you understand or not. It was just a request in case you missed the word as I felt that you'll be the one at loss if you don't go through the discussions since no one here has the patience to explain the things over and over which has been already done several times. Huh. Gnanapiti 01:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You are sitting there (wrongly) assuming that I have not went over past discussion and acting condescendingly without taking time to read what I am trying to say. Just because you have wasted your time in the past making wrong assumptions does not mean I have to abide by them. I do not require your patience or your approval. I know how to get my point across in Wikipedia. --Blacksun 08:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Blacksun, please see the detailed discussions in the previous sections - I know it is very lengthy, but you can perhaps look over only the comments with/about sources and ignore all the personal opinions.

Both F&F and I began with the POV you are expressing above with regards to the the status of languages listed in the 8th schedule but the numerous secondary sources produced by F&f and Lex, have convinced us that those are not official languages although they have a special status as explained in greater detail in the Official languages of India article. Yes, some sources such as CIA factbook do label the 22 languages as official but that passing reference is contradicted by every scholarly source that looks at the subject in detail.

Note that I am not arguing that the 8th schedule languages are "less significant" than the official state languages - that judgment is surely a matter of opinion. However the only contention here is that official state languages are official state languages, and all the proposed versions mark them as such without claiming any federal status.

As for my preferred version: I like K-H's succinct version the most, although I can live with any version which lists Hindi, English and all the official state languages. I would prefer not listing the 8th schedule languages at all (just as I voted for not listing classical languages above), but I think this whole issue is overblown and therefore will not stand in the way if others indicate that they wish to list the 8th schedule languages in addition to the ones previously mentioned.

PS: I know this subject has been under discussion a long time now, but I would request that we don't change the status quo till everyone involved is on the same page, since such a step would surely inflame emotions and just lead to the page being protected. Thanks. Abecedare 22:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have not seen a single thing that makes me feel that state languages have any official status federally, forget about more official than 8th schedule languages. Furthermore, CIA factbook is not alone in this regards. I am positive that there are many other examples from major newspapers that do the same thing. I can be bothered to hunt them down as soon as you present sources that includes state language as official languages of Republic of India instead of pointing me to articles that argue the fine points of why 8th schedule languages are not fully official. Maybe I missed it in the plethora of discussions. Furthermore, marking them as state languages is not good enough. I consider that as original research - you are promoting something that gives false impression to the readers. Their is absolutely no need to do this nor is there any precedence for it. However, 8th schedule languages have clear precedence over state languages (Mentioned in the constitution specifically for special treatment, can be used for examination, and have been used as defacto list of official languages of India before: CIA factbook, for instance).

The entire thing baffles me. On one hand, you folks are arguing that 8th schedule are not FULL OFFICIAL languages and so they should not be in the infobox. On the other hand, you want to include the state languages that have absolutely no business in this article. I mean FINE dont mark the 8th schedule languages as official languages. Just call them 8th schedule languages but don't confuse the matter by listing both state and 8th schedule as pretty much the entire thing overlaps. Oh wait, it doesnt have French. I wonder if that goes against or for the argument. *scratches head*

I apologize if I am creating obstacles in your hard work but it is the way I see it and I have no problems changing my opinion if I am given a logical reason to do so. I hope that is mutual.--Blacksun 23:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Blaksun, but you lose me when you use phrases like "more official", "full official", etc. The situation is as follows:

• India has two official languages for the union: Hindi, English (the latter having subsidiary status)
• Indian states are allowed to choose their own official languages (Constitution of India, Article 345), and all have done so. And yes, Poducherry has chosen French as one its official languages.[13]

Now I could understand if you said that only the first in the above list deserve to be mentioned in the India article, although many editors object to that. But I do not understand when you say (1) that the 8th schedule languages are More official than the official state languages, since I don't know what that means, or (2) 8th schedule languages are more significant than official state languages, which as I said above is a matter of opinion, and irrespective of whether it is true or not, does not make them official languages.

As for the current significance of the 8th schedule: The listed languages are meant to be

1. used to enrich Hindi [14]
2. used in UPSC exams Para 4b
3. helped in their development Para 2

I hope you'll agree that the first two points hardly qualify a language for official status. And as for the 3rd point, it does indicate that the languages are considered "major", but calling them official would be akin to calling any geographical regions chosen by the GOI for special development, "official regions of India". In concluding, I'd like to point out that the constition itself never refers to the 8th schedule languages as official, while it specifically calls the state languages, Official language or languages of a State. Of course, if the DMK or UPA proposal that Lex has linked to above passes, the situation will change dramatically and the article will have to be modified to reflect that; but as I am sure you know wikipedia is not a crystall ball.

I hope the above summary has been useful to you. If you wade through the above discussion you'll find secondary sources which make the same point. Thanks. Abecedare 02:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

PS: I just noticed that the CIA factbook gets the number of 8th schedule languages wrong too (14 instead of 22). Abecedare 02:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I think that you missed a point where the GoI is obliged to see the development of the 8th schedule languages according the 1968 Official Languages resolution. Anyways, let me clearly state exactly what I am saying.
1) Hindi and English are no brainer. However, anyone who knows anything about India will agree that mentioning just those two languages is a gross misrepresentation.
2) State languages are not official languages of Indian union. They are official languages of the state and the state is free to chose whatever they want. If tomorrow some state choses Chinese as one of its official language it is free to do so. However, Chinese will not then become an official language of India. I hope that is clear.
3) 8th schedule languages are, as you say, not official languages either. However, they are mentioned in the Constitution of Republic of India. The fact that they are mentioned in the context of Republic of India makes them, in my eyes, more significant to this article, which is about Republic of India, than state languages which should be mentioned in individual state articles.
So, in brief, you need not mention 8th schedule languages as official languages of India but the fact that their is a movement to give them that status and that they have a special status under the constitution of Republic of India makes them more significant to this article than a list compiled for official state languages, for which, as of yet, you have not provided a single citation to support that they have any federal role or status. So, why exactly do we pick official state languages over 8th schedule languages to be included in the infobox? I am sorry but I cannot be any more clear than this. Once again, you guys keep harping on the finer points of why 8th schedule languages are not official languages while missing the big picture. Please do not repeat your arguments or assume that I have not went over the past discussions - I am getting tired of being told that I need to read up (which I have) while you are missing the point that I am trying to make. --Blacksun 08:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Blacksun, You say "First of all, I think that you missed a point where the GoI is obliged to see the development of the 8th schedule languages according the 1968 Official Languages resolution.". How could have I done that when I linked to that very resolution in the preceding comment and specifically wrote, "The listed languages are meant to be ... helped in their development Para 2" ?

Anyway, since both you and I have made our respective arguments and see the same evidence but arrive at differing conclusions regrading the relative status of State languages and 8th schedule languages as official - I think we will just have to agree to disagree and let other editors chime in. Cheers. Abecedare 09:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a cop out. You have not made a single argument or provided citation for relative official status of state languages in the context of Republic of India. All you have done is explain why 8th schedule languages are not the perfect choice without ever making the case for state languages. I am more than willing to change my position if you make a stronger case for inclusion of state languages. The way I see it: GoI has responsibility towards 8th schedule but has no responsibility towards state languages. You have to pass a federal resolution to list or delist as 8th schedule but no such measure is required to be listed as an official state language. How can you say then that state languages have a greater federal role or status than 8th schedule languages? If anyone can elucidate this for me, feel free to do so. I will gladly change my position if these questions are answered.
Finally, India is a very stable article. Past editors, including Nichalp, have favored using 8th schedule in the infobox (check early archives). I find it surprising that this was changed without presenting a single source or argument that trumps state languages over the 8th schedule. I propse that we have two sections: 1) official language: Hindi, English 2) Recognized (or give suggestions) languages: 8th schedule languages. Thanks --Blacksun 09:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Eighth Schedule Languages Again

I just went back and re-read the secondary sources that I had compiled earlier. I am afraid I have to side with Blacksun. (My original goal was to make the point that Hindi and English had special status; after that discussion, I didn't pay that much attention to the sources, and, in particular, to what they said about other languages). It seems that the languages mentioned in all the references are the 8th schedule languages. The secondary sources don't all say that the languages are officialj languages, but have words to the effect that these languages are recognized by the constitution. The main point, however, is not whether the languages are technically official or not, but whether in the context of articles on India or the languages of India, they are mentioned by reliable secondary sources in discussions of official languages. Sorry to go back to the sources, but that is all we can go by. The secondary sources only mention Hindi, English, and 8th schedule. So, how does one resolve this? One way to get around the semantic problem would to have two boxes: one for Hindi, English (and labeled) "Official Languages;" and the other for 8th schedule languages, labeled "Official Languages Commission Languages." "Officially Recognised Languages." (Changed in light of Blacksun's comments below.) I am reproducing the secondary sources below (winnowed to make them more focused):

In particular, David Laitin's words (in reference 8) are significant: "And the 'Eighth Schedule' specified a list of fourteen "languages of India" whose speakers would be given protected seats on the Presidential Commission to implement the All-India language policy." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

PS Sorry, Blacksun, I didn't see your post (you must have posted while I was compiling the sources)! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I did read the entire discussion that had taken place but it was primarily about Hindi & English. Somewhere along the lines, user Abecedara proposed using state languages instead of 8th scheduled languages citing the fact that 8th schedule languages are not official. However, neither are state languages. Add to the fact that secondary sources tend to mention 8th schedule languages in the same breath as official languages. This cannot be said about state languages. Not to mention, this entire argument has come up before kindav. Nichalp cited: --source; Manorama Yearbook 2006, pg 507, ISBN 8189004077 -- to support 8th schedule languages inclusion and also stated that French is not the national language of India. --Blacksun 11:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about the following infobox: It has two boxes 1) Official Languages: Hindi, English, 2) Officially Recognized Languages: 8th Schedule Languages (listed).

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is fine with me. You can call it just recognized or whatever else. --Blacksun 12:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Support: KnowledgeHegemony 16:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

A rather fundamental question: everybody now seems to agree that the languages in the Eighth Schedule aren't official - at least, nobody has been able to cite any reliable source which calls them official. So why are we mentioning languages which are not official languages in the infobox? Is there any precedent at all for this? Does any other country mention non-official languages in its infobox? Plenty of countries "recognise" languages which aren't official, but on a quick glance I don't see them mentioned in the relevant infoboxes. On what basis are we making an exception for India? -- Lexmercatoria 16:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)