User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 26

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Vandal identified as Kevin1243

After seriously reviewing the history of User_talk:Kevin1243 edits, tags, and AfD's on many topics, seeing a serial process of leaving misspelling, cleanup tags, and then nominating articles under construction for speedy deletion or AfD, the words SNEAKY VANDALISM comes to mind. The user screen name Kevin1243 can be seen at many other external web sites, including two other online encyclopedic resources. The most convincing external site found is http://www.faceparty.com/Kevin1243. Can an 18 year-old certainly have the vast knowledge stored to make edits of so unfamiliar topics? He may not. He is vandalizing the Wikipedia. The claim his administrative skill is browsing new articles for deletion seems more likely a brag of hacking any academic interest here. You may want to visit the user_talk pages of this individual, where you will find many others have left a history that shows a pattern of vandalism. So, I write. StationNT5Bmedia 03:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you mentioned this at WP:ANI?--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like this is a bit of a dispute surrounding Non-synchronous transmissions, where it appears Kevin1243 has placed a couple of maintenance tags, suggested a merge, and most recently removed a bunch of commercial links quite properly. Looking at his talk page, he's done a lot of new page patrol, from the looks of things, and gathered the usual complaints about articles that were either deleted or later properly developed. I certainly don't see any indication of vandalism there, and StationNT5Bmedia's attempted tagging of Kevin's page with block tags looks a bit odd. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 04:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I was a bit flattered that he though I might be a muscled 18 year old from the UK, when looking at myself I only see an overweight middle aged Australian. As you say, RC and new page patrol does attract a lot of criticism. Kevin 04:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hah, well, in any case, this should probably be resolved elsewhere.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 04:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello. Having been contacted by StationNT5Bmedia I've responded to him with a rather lengthly observation of this conflict at his talk page. You may be interested in reading it. (This applies to those who have the time or interest. I feel bad enough posting this here since I feel it should not have been brought here at the start.) Cheers! --EarthPerson 20:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

With some supporting evidence, this discussion is open at WP:ANI including a short poll of other users citing VANDALISM...more specifically SNEAKY VANDALISM. Since the user is not currently active, perhaps a short recess should benefit for now. StationNT5Bmedia 18:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I have a question

Mr. Wales, I need your opinion on something: do you agree with this reversion? It seems to me that without humour the impact (?) of the warning is not softened, which I assume is why it was put there in the first place. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  20:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

At the end of the day Jimbo says we can edit his page and that reversion was me doing so, SqueakBox 20:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As was me reverting your humorlessness, Squeak. Two on one now. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 02:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Err that was two on two, Prodego was removing it too. Please get your facts right at least, SqueakBox 17:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't look at it that way, Raven—Wikipedia is not a democracy. However I vehemently agree with you. ;) —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Neither is Wikipedia a revert battlefield, which is pretty much what the handsome comment is making it. In any case, I simply meant that two editors can revert more than one without breaking 3RR. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 03:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Despite not being Mr Wales, I'll say that I agree with the reversion. The humor was (is?) rather leaden. People should hesitate before attributing deletions of "humorous" material on the deleter's alleged "humorlessness": the lack of humor may at least in part be their own. There was a kernel of humor in the addition; but it needed wit to be rendered effective, and an emoticon is a pretty reliable sign of a deficiency of wit. -- Hoary 04:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

—  $PЯIПGrαgђ  04:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Hoary has recently been spotted climbing the Reichstag. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 06:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

In this case, I am with Squeak. The joke in question is really not my style. :) In any event, it all seems nothing worth getting too excited about either way.--Jimbo Wales 07:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh I looked a little closer. That's only visible when people click "edit" and it is pretty clearly not a not from me personally but rather from "the editors" to "the vandals". So that's a bit different. I would never joke about whether or not I am handsome (that seems weird to me) and so if it was on the visible page as if it was me saying it, I would find that strange and not in my own voice. But where it is, ehhhh, I don't care either way. :) --Jimbo Wales 07:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Jimbo's use of [witless combination of punctuation marks removed] proves his lack of wit. (Hoary's Law, also known as the Smileys Suck Rule) ;) --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 11:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me as a fairly lame joke. But considering it's only visible when editing anyway, it seems really ridiculous that we're all wasting so much time debating it. Don't we all have more important things to do? Like, for example, creating an encyclopedia? This talk page is getting awfully long, too - 124KB and none of it old enough to archive yet. Please, can't we give it a rest? Tualha (Talk) 12:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

"What's all this attractive nonesense about?"
"Just what are you trying to say?"

Peace.Lsi john 12:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I am sure Jimbo wouldn't mind if we archived some of the resolved stuff. The real question is, what is he doing up at three in the morning or so (central time) editing his talkpage? (he knows it is past his bedtime) :) --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 12:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't bother, a bot archives it. Tualha (Talk) 16:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Isn't he in florida? Wouldn't that make it 4AM? He could very well get up that early, my grandparents do :p Then again, Jimbo is a big boy. --L^augh! 17:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Meetup/San Francisco 2 --Aude (talk) 20:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Kaaba

You may wish to take a look at the on-going discussion on this article concerning its inclusion of a depiction of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It's a rather contentious debate and at least one admin is pushing for a "compromise" between those who want inclusion based on the fact that the image is informative and that Wiki is not censored and those who find the image is offensive. I believe that any "compromise" here is a violation of both the spirit and letter of Wiki policy which is why I bring this issue up to you. --Strothra 20:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous/Tor editing, Solutions?

Hello.
(Quick note: This is not only intended for Mr. Wales. I'm very much interested in hearing other people's opinions as well)
So, it seems as though at least a couple editors feel that they've been victims of de facto bans (not blocks, but bans), based on their desire to anonymously edit. More generally, editors are actively discouraged from using them, and may feel pressured to choose between exposing personal information or simply not editing at all.
(Incidentally, before anyone tries to argue that little personal information is at stake, the amount of information I could collect about myself with just the IP records of my editing in wikipedia is somewhat disturbing)
The fact is, there are numerous reasons why a person might want to edit anonymously:

1. Local censorship. -China's the obvious case, but I don't know a single government I particularly trust.
2. Stalkers -Real life stalkers, including ex-spouses. If I did have an ex-wife, and they suspected they might have figured out my username, the ip logs here could easily tell them what country, province, city, building, and even personal office I was in, as well as the time and frequency that I travel to the US. Some people really do have ex's who are just that bad.
3. Online stalkers -Obviously, we know that certain somebodies on certain websites have tried to 'out' editors. Imagine what they could do if, in a matter of a day, they could get all that information I just mentioned, as well as full name, personal address and home phone number.
4. Sensitivity of information/retribution -While although all material needs to be sourced independently, it still remains a fact that a person might tend to want to write about topics close to their own lives. As a token example, suppose a person working for a large industry knew of publicly available EPA reports (or other such content) that was verifiable and reliable, but not widely known. They may wish to make that information more widely available, but have to worry about whether or not it would cost them their job.

As it is, admins can edit even when their IPs are blocked, correct?
I know that some people have batted around the idea of possibly allowing ipblock exemptions (I forget the actual term for it) for editors who request it. That way, you can still block the anonymous IPs, to cut down on vandalism, but still allow people to edit with safety and confidence.
Frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding why this isn't already an option. Sure, people could still vandalize, but they do that anyways. And it would be a simple task to simply remove the exemption after the first (and last) offense.
It certainly seems better than excluding people who want to contribute, solely to preserve the appearance of discouraging those who wish to be destructive. And it would certainly provide no less safety than is currently present with AOL users. Those users have all the anonymity of proxy users, but don't even have soft blocks.
What I (and others) am suggesting is not even blanket softblocks for these IPs, but rather some mechanism of simply allowing them to receive an ipblock-exempt bit. This would leave proxy editors as being held to a higher standard than AOL users currently are, so I don't see how vandalism could really be a concern.
Thoughts? Comments? Bladestorm 19:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a strong supporter of people using Tor to edit Wikipedia, and I think the current situation is quite unfortunate. There are complications to be sure, but the idea that admins can use Tor, while ordinary users can not, does not strike me as particularly appropriate. Anyone who is a normal trusted editor ought to be able to use Tor if they like... and why not?--Jimbo Wales 19:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding, the developers added the feature that allows admininstrators to edit while their underlying IP is blocked with the intention that it be given to trusted users, but have not created an interface to allow the permission to be assigned, and at present it is given automatically to administrators. Perhaps we should ask the developers if they can create an interface for it at a special page, and let sterwards and/or bureucrats and/or sysops be able to use the interface. --Deskana (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a wonderful idea. :) (Uh... happen to know how to contact the developers?) Incidentally, I think sysops could be trusted with the ability to assign that bit, no? It's hardly different in principle from blocking and unblocking. Bladestorm 19:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As the one who originally proposed that feature (bugzilla:3706), I can say my intention was to help trusted users (not only administrators, but also known non-vandal editors) who shared an IP address with non-logged-in vandals. The thought of using it to help trusted people bypass blocks on open proxies or tor outproxies (unless they happened to share an IP with an open proxy or tor outproxy) was never on my mind; in fact, such usage can be dangerous unless the secure server is being used (due to the possibility of password sniffing). I also never thought of a particular interface; my idea was that bureaucrats would be the ones somehow setting or resetting the flag. That this feature currently allow a sysop-only ability to edit via tor is an unfortunate side-effect (unfortunate due to it being sysop-only, not due to being able to edit via tor). --cesarb 03:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I do realize that password-sniffing is still a concern if this is to be done. (I have to suspect it's not a major concern, but there's really no reason to not address a potential vulnerability when investigating a new feature) It seems to me that anyone requesting the exemption would have to agree to use the secure server. (And, for that matter, the secure server would need to be advertised at least a little bit better. I had no idea it even existed until I read a question about it in one of the RfA's) Bladestorm 03:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone editing through any proxy (or on any network they don't have personal control over the security of) should be editing using the secure server, this is certainly true. (Realistically, I imagine most TOR exit node operators have better things to do than sniff the connection on the off chance they catch a Wikipedia admin's password, but you never know.) Bladestorm, and anyone else with an opinion on this situation, you're certainly welcome to join the discussion at WT:NOP, as currently exactly these questions are being decided there. (And Jimbo, of course, that includes you too if you'd like to drop in a word or two. :) ) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought the secure server used null encryption? --Deskana (talk) 03:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You know what? I have a degree in computer science, and all these details are still tricky to follow. I can't imagine what it must be like to absolute laymen. Bladestorm 04:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it currently uses AES-256, at least for me (I just checked). There's no way it can use only null encryption; Firefox, for instance, will not accept null encryption (check on about:config the default value for the booleans under security.ssl2 and security.ssl3). --cesarb 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am so freaking glad I focused on AI and combinatorial optimization instead of encryption and network security. That's absolutely greek to me. :) Bladestorm 04:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Cesar, you may want to have a look at Bug 6711. Closed as fixed... maybe undergoing testing or awaiting release? Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You guys might also want to take a look at this, which is the specific request to have this permission enabled on enwiki, including an extension that I wrote for it (Special:Makeipexempt). However, it seems to have stalled, and no one wishes to implement this (even though it'd be a very easy fix). ^demon^{[omg plz]} 00:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

/me prods Jimmy to prod the devs :) I can think of a number of happy campers should this fix go through sooner rather than later... Cheers, Daniel 00:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Comba-Tai

Dear Mr. Whales, I would like the Comba-Tai page completely deleted because there was not adequate time given to the discussion of this page. It is my belief that there were some inflammatory ignorant statements made against this African American Martal art that are legally noteworthy. I am the proprietor of this system and I formerly request that the Comba-Tai page be completely removed. It is my belief that Wikipedia procedures lend to a high degree of biases which is unworthy of any martial art. By the way, there is no where stated in any Comba-Tai article that immigrant “Nights Templar” went to Jones County. Such ignorance is indicative of what I believe to be bias evaluators on this page. Also the “Asian etymology” of some of its techniques is evident in the Asian systems it practices. What are they talking about? Again this look’s like bias ignorance that looks really bad. I mention these areas because they were made by people who agreed to delete this page. 90% of the comments are opinion, none are based on fact. What encyclopedic value it that. So please remove any mention of Comba-Tai from what I believe to be an international disgrace. Thank you. --216.241.52.114 22:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

To 216.241.52.114, I've place a header above your comment to separate it from the preceding comment. I would also mention that I could not find Comba-Tai, even as a deleted article. Can you provide better details? LessHeard vanU 22:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The discussion is here[1] Best regards, Hamster Sandwich 23:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that Jimbo, as well as 216.241.52.114, would thank you for that. LessHeard vanU 23:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but trying to get your article deleted from Wikipedia, on the grounds that you don't like Wikipedia, will probably draw a lot of attention to you...which in turn will force Wikipedia to have an article on you --L^augh! 19:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Since the article was already deleted, I am going to take this as a request to courtesy-blank the discussion. By the way, in all similar cases, I encourage anyone to do courtesy blankings of such pages. When an article is deleted and there have been some harsh comments (and the truth or untruth of those comments seems to me not very important) it is often a good way to let someone walk away with dignity. The page could always be referenced or restored if it became necessary, but in the meantime there is no need to have a public page about how unimportant someone or something is.--Jimbo Wales 19:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you encourage blanking of all deletion debates similar to this, or only on request? --Deskana (talk) 19:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say we can be pretty casual about it. It's really no big deal, less than deletion even, and deletion is no big deal too. In many cases, there is no reason to blank, but if it is a living person or seems to be a "vanity" article where the person has emotionally defended inclusion, it seems courteous. Just depends on the context I guess.--Jimbo Wales 22:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I thank you for the direction you have provided. Best regards, Hamster Sandwich 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Smatprt violations

There is an annoying user who has been complained about by at least six editors for obstructing the development of the Shakespeare project. I suggest a long ban. Testimony can be found here.Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#User:Smatprt_violations (Felsommerfeld 22:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

On second thoughts, maybe on reading those comments from editors he has learnt how distressing his behaviour has been to people and he can become a better person. So I withdraw my previous request with this hope in mind. (Felsommerfeld 23:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

If he keeps it up post on WP:ANI, they should help you. Otherwise continue improving articles.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Felsommerfeld has posted there, and on at least a dozen different admin and article talk pages. So far, the responding administrators have found NO reason for action and, in fact, have advised Felsommerfeld to stop deleting properly referenced material (that happens to disagree with his POV). He has also been advised to work things out at talk, instead of making false accusations of sock-puppetry (proven untrue) and the like.Smatprt 04:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Felsommerfeld's complaint-spree appeared after I filed an administrative incident report [2] against him for making mass deletions of referenced material. The administrator on that case has warned Felsommerfeld about this and posted advice to the other mainstream editors of the Shakespeare Authorship page (who keep deleting material there, too) here: [3] and here: [4]. Felsommerfeld's implied threats to retaliate on pages like this are here: [5] and here: [6] and here: [7] Thanks for considering this info. Smatprt 14:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

On third thoughts, I don't think he's learnt anything and judging by this tirade will probably continue on his mission to rid the Shakespeare articles of all mention of the Stratford man, replacing him with the Earl of Oxford. It can't all be me if at least six editors have testified against him here!!! [[8]] (Felsommerfeld 09:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

This is definitely not the place to discuss this--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 15:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Just in case...

Someone's been playing around with TOR nodes tonight, and I've done a handful of blocks on those that I found being abused by at least a banned user. However, someone on a separate TOR node decided to point me to the conversation above, and has since been using others to replace the message and be a general pain in the butt. It's very likely that some other IP is going to bastardize this message or tack on a ZOMG ADMINABUSE to this, but I believe the message about you thinking no one should be using an open proxy (or a TOR proxy) to be editting Wikipedia holds in this situation.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• [9]
• [10]
• [11]

Well, I was close.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

zOMGadminabuse --L^augh! 19:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment on your user page

I hate to say this, but the edit count/summary/usage link in the top right is incompatible with classic skin, as it falls on top of the links to my use page, talk, preferences etc. Can something be done about this? – Tivedshambo (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Should be easy. I'll take a look. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

OKI've fixed it in classic. Doesn't look too bad in Monobook, perhaps someone else would like to play with css a bit . If you do though, please check the classic skin (and the others) to make sure your changes do not look awful in the other skins. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn

Thanks. – Tivedshambo (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

SCOX Trolls

These accounts are at it again. How about some help Mr. Wales, if you have time. It may be a good idea for you to refer the entire mess over to the arbcom to sort it all out.

• User:Pfagerburg
• User:Aim Here
• User:Kebron

They have been repeatedly told to stay away from me, but have not gotten the message. I will be out of town until next Tuesday on business in Texas. I can be reached by email.

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 03:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you gone through the typical series of steps to resolve this problem? Reasoned conversation, WP:WQA, WP:RFC, WP:ANI, WP:MC, WP:ARBCOM. --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he hasn't. But he insists that most people who criticise him are trolling, and for some odd reason, people actually believe him often. -Amarkov moo! 03:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

He might have a case with Pfagerburg but the others don't appear to be trolls.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't really matter know. Someone's blocked everyone involved except me, including these three. So they'll be reflexively unblocked, and we'll go to Arbcom really fast. Enjoy the circus, I have to figure out how to not be listed as a party to the dispute. -Amarkov moo! 03:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Does Mr. Merkey have some kind of power here? It seems unreasonable to block users at his beck and call.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind he got blocked too. This could make for an interesting case.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 04:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

What does porn have to do with an Encyclopedia?

Why does Wikipedia allow porn?  Tcrow777  talk  02:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Because it isn't censored. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 02:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I know, but isn't that taking it to the extreme.  Tcrow777  talk  03:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't like we host pornography, we just don't censor images relevant to an article. Usually, they are fairly tasteful. Is there a particular image that you are objecting to?--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Technically, the Wikimedia Foundation does host porn because it is stored on their servers and is freely available. I object to all porn.  Tcrow777  talk  03:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be unreasonable about it—it does not show explicit sexual acts (such as a facial actually happening or anal sex being done by two guys), and therefore is not pornography. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Check out fellatio, Spring. Or List of sex positions. An illustration is as bad as a photograph. But the fact remains, Wikipedia is not censored, and IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason for removal. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 03:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Information about sex is a part of "the sum of all human knowledge." We present it in an encyclopedic way, and I very much doubt that people come to wikipedia seeking the titillation that the word "porn" suggests.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 03:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

These illustrations do not show it happening. They show what does happen, but they do not show it happening. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Porn (and sex in general) is a very common field of human endeavor. Therefore, it makes sense for Wikipedia to document it. --Carnildo 04:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess a more relevant question is not "Why does Wikipedia host porn?" but "Why am I so obsessed with porn I feel the need to "take a stand" against encylopedically written articles on it?" Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Or, alternatively, one might ask "Why do I reflexively and obsequiously defend a former porn king (Jimbo Wales) when the subject comes up here?".+ILike2BeAnonymous 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this editor should be blocked for violation of WP:NPA. I won't do it myself because I am personally involved.--Jimbo Wales 15:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sternly warned, if that is sufficient, GDonato (talk) 16:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Im Deutschen haben wir dafür ein Sprichwort: "Was stört es die Eiche, wenn sich ein Schwein an ihr reibt?" - in diesem Sinne - auf sowas gar nicht eingehen. Wenn man es beachtet, wird es erst wichtig. Marcus Cyron 17:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, since I don't speak German (and neither do many others here, no doubt, this being the English Wikipedia), here's a rough translation (very rough, rendered by freetranslation.com) of your comments:

In the German, we have for that a proverb: "What it disturbs itself the oak, if a pig at its reibt?" - In this sense - on such a thing do not go in at all. If one notes it, it becomes first important. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd translate the proverb as "What does the oak care when a pig rubs against it?" --Dapeteばか 09:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

To which I would reply, "Why do you infer that by expressing an opinion a person is acting in defence of a third party on the basis that said third party may have or might have had an interest in the subject being discussed?" LessHeard vanU 13:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, because Bomis and Wikipedia have SO MUCH IN COMMON THAT YOU CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH US. They were both started by Jimbo Wales. They both have some content you probably wouldn't show your kids. 'Oh god, Wikipedia is a porn site!'

Please. We aren't censored, we aren't for little kids, and we don't want to be. The sum of human knowledge doesn't end at names and dates. Mike the headless chicken- Fucking, Austria- hell, pretty much anything in WP:ODD might not be something you'd find in Britannica, but they're sure as heck notable and interesting subjects. WP isn't meant to be a free Britannica, or a free Encarta. We're meant to be a free encyclopedia, and that's free as in speech, too. Unless you can provide a good reason why things that are probably the only reason you are alive right now are unencyclopedic, you should probably stop flinging crap. --L^augh! 13:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The wonderful thing about this encyclopedia is that it aims to cover EVERY single topic in the world in great detail. That's why it is so popular. It doesn't shy away from various topics for fear of upsetting people. Why should all articles with images of nice, juicy, blood dripping slices of meat be deleted just because vegetarians might riot on looking at them? The world's best encyclopedia covers everything and anything, going to any length to explain it properly. This is why this encyclopedia is (in that sense) the best there is and why it is used so much. Shouldn't all encyclopedias (other than children's encyclopedias) be like that? Lradrama 09:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

How many pictures of Erections do we need to illustrate an article? And why do we keep both unused images and the editors who seek imaginative ways to display them to the unsuspecting? (Example problem - graphic) Note that the image in question was deleted from Wikipedia but re-uploaded to Commons. Rklawton 17:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I know there was a warning, but I clicked anyway. I wish I didn't, but I did. the_undertow ^talk 07:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we should leave it how it is. After all, Wikipedia has lots of stuff that arn't in other encyclopedias. And there arn't any "porny" pictures even on the porn article itself. ⊕Assasin Joe ^talk 18:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

An answer to the question at the begining: Why not? It depends to live like to eat, to drink or to sleep. Not to talk (and write) about those things would be very bad. Sexuality, and this includes Pornography and Prostitution, is a normal thing, only the world dont want it to know or realize. Wikipedia will show the world. And Pornography is everywhere. And people who don't want to read about it musn't look out for these themes. Marcus Cyron 17:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of the images of Erection also have very odd liscencing. (An image the uploader took,... yeah right) If wikipedia is to have any images, then they should at least have correct liscencing that corresponds to Wikipedia's Fair-Use policy.

Fair use doesn't apply here because the photographers are wikieditors and released the image with a free licence. There is nothing strange about that, it is the normal situation on En.Wikipedia and the only situation on commons. BTW please always sign your posts so we can see who is saying what. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 18:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, might I reccomend that if you have a problem with wikipedias stance on censorship, porn and sex. you might want to check out this project which believes porn does not exist as well as many other controversial topics. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That project was deleted! I want Wikipedia to be safe for all users, an Elementary School user might be able to handle profanity (as long as G.D. is not mentioned more then it needs to be), but porn is something no Elementary School user should see.  Tcrow777  talk  08:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The deletion was the joke. Encyclopedia's are not meant for elementary school students(we have a different wiki for that). Another thing, what self respecting parent would let their child have unrestricted internet access, responsibility lies with them. Lord knows if the child searches "porn" he would be lucky to get the wiki article over the other stuff that is out there. Also, porn isn't the only thing on wiki inappropriate for young 'uns, so you propose censoring of a massive amount of material. --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 08:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

TCrow, every elementary school student knows what a naked person looks like, and many of them have had some kind of sex education. A few images demonstrating (most of the sex ones are drawings and not even real images) sex or genitalia are not porn. Its the same thing you'd find in a sex ed class, health class, or a biology/human anatomy class. What elementary school child would be looking up what a Penis or the Kama Sutra is on Wikipedia anyways? You also seem to be showing a Christian bias with that profanity comment, Wikipedia is for all walks of life and what offends one person may not bother someone else at all, we don't have to view something we see as offensive; there is no need to censor the whole project. DarthGriz98 14:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? If I'd had access to Wikipedia in elementary school, penis would have been one of the first things I'd have looked up (as would fart, and poop, and...) --Carnildo 19:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

@tis true that children do have a natural curiosity about all things sexual and bodily functional. The nice thing about wikipedia is, that if their parents decide they are mature enough to use it, they will (we hope) find accurate and well written information as opposed to playground myths. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm, now that I think about it, that is the first thing I would have looked for. Well, if they are actually looking for it, then why stop them? The point is that the information on Wikipedia is factual information on the subject of sex rather than overly pornographic like, well porn. Let's put it this way, if we were born naked, and nudity is all around us, what's the big deal if it's natural? DarthGriz98 00:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Tcrow777, can you answer the following questions:

1. What is your definition of pornography?
2. What is your understanding of the mission of Wikipedia?
3. Why do you believe that poronography does not fit with the mission of Wikipedia?
4. What do you think are Wikipedia's obligations to parents and children?
5. What criteria do you think should be applied to determine what images and what article text are "appropriate" for Wikipedia?

--Richard 19:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Gladly,

1. Any picture showing anything.
2. An Encyclopedia with all free content that anyone can edit and add to, anyone should be able to look up anything without having to shield their eyes. An Encyclopedia for all.
3. It is unnecessary and the primary reason it is on Wikipedia is that it causes sexual atraction.
4. Viewing porn on Wikipedia should be optional.
5. Does it add important information? Could what the picture is trying to explain be better explained it text, pictures should be a last resort? Is the primary reason that it is there is because it causes sexual atraction?

—  Tcrow777  talk  22:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, ignoring your blatent religious views, why exactly must children be shielded from sex at all? It's something almost every adult does and something they too will do when they are adults. We don't guard our children from learning about cars even though they can't drive one, and cars are a hell of a lot more dangerous than bonking. I finished reading For Tibet, with Love today and Isabel Losada was describing how when she walking around Dharamsala, she saw nearly every kind of native animal - monkeys, dogs, goats - all at it in public at one time or another, and not one of the children who were running around was the slightest bit bothered. It's only when you try to conceal something that children get interested, and what is otherwise a universal fact of life becomes something obsessive. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate, for someone who thinks an image is pornographic, to replace that image with an image they think is not pornographic, but still enhances the article? (Sounds like a challenge to me.) (When I was an adolescent, I did look up the "naughty" words and pictures in encyclopedias and dictionaries. It was there in the public library, and my parents weren't looking over my shoulder when I was in the reference section. Parents have a lot more control over the internet in their own home, than they do the public libraries.) But seriously, if you think an image is pornographic to the point it doesn't contribute to the article, try making your own image. gnomelock 20:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfair actions by an admin and a serious issue plaguing Wikipedia.

Dear Mr. Wales,

I, User:Altruism would like to bring to your notice the repeated abuse of admin powers by User:Blnguyen.

This is the second time in a fortnight that I've been blocked for 'violations' in Telugu script. Incidentally, this time User:Blnguyen not only unprotected the article (which was in deep conflict) but was also involved in "major edits", when he should have recused himself due to a "conflict of interest." He was not explicit in mentioning the reasons for the "major edits" in the "edit summary," only caring to mention "rm dubious pictures." This only shows his suspicion at those pictures. After I reverted his edits twice, another user reverted my reverts by explicitly mentioned the reasons in the "edit summary," which I respected. User:Blnguyen has been extremely hasty and violated the last guideline of Wikipedia:Copyright_violations as no appropriate warnings, nor any explicit mention of his reasons was made in the edit summary of Telugu script .

Please see my earlier conversation with User:Blnguyen. He is dangerously courteous and evasive in answering, when asked about why he was biased and hasty in blocking me. I strongly feel that Admin privileges are probably the last thing to be vested with such biased users.

I also have concrete evidence of User:Blnguyen supporting and succumbing to bait from a gang of users, engaged in widespread vandalism/trolling in several articles, especially those pertaining to Andhra Pradesh, Telugu script, Beary bashe, Belgaum border dispute etc. Plz. see a complaint of mine, which fell on deaf ears; a complaint of sock-puppetry.

I request your immediate intervention in this major dispute especially the users ganging up plaguing and disturbing at least several hundreds of users. I'm bothering you because I like many others had no other recourse anywhere on Wikipedia. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 07:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The first block was for 5RR. After that it was brought to my attention that there were copyvios on the page, so I made my edits to remove these copyvios. Then I unprotected the page so that everyone could have an editing opportunity. Altruism decided to reinstate unsrouced pictures, which were already tagged as problematic on the caption on the screen. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you tried ANI or RFC?--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 07:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sigh... I figured as much. Can you two find some way to work it out?--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 08:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I did make 5RRs the first time I was blocked. But all I did was to keep the content intact before my request for re-protection was acceded. I requested unprotection in the first place, only in WP:AGF , in order to arrive at a consensus on Telugu script on the lines of Telugu language. I can definitely say that User:Blnguyen reacts to different users in very different ways, not uniformly, which is why he should be relieved of his "admin responsibilities." He is biased. I'd apologise to Mr. Wales for spamming his discussion page, but for the importance of the larger issue. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 08:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

He might not even comment, and this kind of thing seems all to common here. I suggest you work it out between yourselves, or, if that is not possible, you seek help via the WP:RFC process. If that fails then go to mediation. These steps were put in place specifically for cases like these.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 08:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It just may not work because he's an admin, whose powers he's least hesitant of using.

My main message to Mr. Wales is to highlight the traumatic case of users ganging up and/or indulging in Sock puppetry and getting away, probably in collusion with some admins!! --Altruism^{To talk} 08:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

They are not socks, unless someone has the time and energy to create and maintain 5 very active accounts with a variety of edit patterns just to gang up on you. I think ganging up in this case might be WP:CON and you might want to try to work with them rather than against them.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 08:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

To say the least, I've pro-actively tried to collaborate and do constructive edits. I've tried arbitration, but to little or no avail. At least 2 of the 5 mentioned may be indulging in Wikipedia:Sock puppetry, one case of which was confirmed by an investigator, only to be cleared of the charges on the basis of User:Blnguyen and others' report. Is it appropriate to discuss this on Mr. Wales' page? Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 08:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration?(I don't think you have gone to Arbcom have you?) that would be premature. It seems mediation WP:M is the correct venue at this point. Yes, this is semi-inappropriate for this venue, but it happens all the time anyway. --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 09:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm open to WP:M but what about the damage already done. My unblemished track record in Wikipedia was spoilt not once but twice.

More importantly, what about the larger issue (different/same users ganging up) of repeated reverts, deletions by absolutely rigid users. Shouldn't this be examined by a larger audience, probably to block any loopholes that WP policy may have, currently. Could you throw any solutions? Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 09:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Mediation. That leaves it open to a wider audience, where people will comment. If you feel it really needs lots of opinions, go to WP:RFC and create a RFC on either yourself or the admin. Mediation is definately the best option. Also, even if you were trying to do good, breaching 3RR is a serious offense. WP:AGF does not count in that case. Also, in the case of copyvios, it is normal to remove until investigation - having them online can cause major problems and/or legal troubles for Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The Mediation Committee does not deal with user conduct disputes. Therefore, if you were to file an RfM, the only thing we'd be interested in hearing about is the content issues, and would ignore/remove discussion about sockpuppetry, edit warring and blocks. To quote Essjay, former Chair of the MedCom and former Arbitrator, amongst other things:

I believe strongly that most user-conduct cases are a matter for Arbitration, where actual, meaningful decisions can be made about conduct and sanctions imposed where necessary. The Arbitration Committee is in a position to say "You are wrong and must stop." The Mediation Committee is, in most user disputes, completely useless: We can neither offer an analysis of the dispute, because we must remain neutral facilitators, nor can we offer any resolution to the problem, as we are completely powerless to even offer a decision, much less enforce it. We can't say "you are wrong" nor can we make them stop. In most cases, we can't even get the two sides to admit that their conduct might have been wrong; if we could, the Arbitration Committee wouldn't be anywhere near as busy as it is. When it comes to matters of behavior that rise to the level of formal dispute resolution, the parties aren't at a place where they can discuss it over tea and come away with an "I'm sorry."
I may be completely wrong in my understanding of the Committee and its place, but I see mediation as being the complement to Arbitration, not the preceeding step. (I take this from the description of the Commmittee: The role of the mediation committee is explicitly to try to resolve disputes to the mutual satisfaction of all, and not simply a first step towards banning or for vetting candidates for the Arbitration Committee to ban. Mediation is instead an honest attempt to resolve the problem.) Arbitration doesn't handle content disputes precisely because the nature of the commmittee is to investigate a situation, come to a binding decision, and then enforce it upon all parties. Wikipedia content doesn't work that way; everything is subject to consensus, and the best way to determine consensus is to work together, not to have it decreed from the top. That's why Mediation is so well suited to content disputes between parties who have a good faith desire to solve them: We can be the neutral facilitator they need to work out a consensus position. The key to solving content disputes is to get people talking with each other who were previously talking at each other, and mediation does that spectacularly.

—Essjay

Just thought I'd drop by and give my thoughts :) Daniel 00:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

But shouldn't copyvio or something to that effect have been mentioned in the "edit summary." User:Blnguyen only says "rm dubious pictures." As far as the dictionary goes, it only indicates suspicion, which is why I reverted. But after User:Zamkudi mentioned the reasons, I stopped. Despite stopping, I was blocked by the same admin User:Blnguyen for the 2^nd time in a fortnight. Yes, I did violate 3RR the first time. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 09:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[conflict] Well, the "larger audience" usually(hopefully) gets involved when you post at RFC or a a relevant wikiproject. As for ganging up, that is their consensus versus your lone view. Unless you can convince somebody or them that you are in the right on an issue, then your edits won't stand. I recommend using policy WP:V and WP:RS when in a content dispute and WP:AGF when in a personal one. Try to find some common ground and engage them on the talkpage with suggestions. You might consider making a sandbox that demonstrates what you would like the article to look like. This will avoid mainspace conflict. I think this is probably a good start anyway.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 09:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is probably much more to it than just 'consensus' and I'm not the lone person to feel this. I can assure you that there are at least several tens of editors, who feel the same as myself. In brief, the problem is that the "gang," is from a state in India, whose neighbouring states' editors feel wronged, mainly to due to their very unusual, highly systematic and efficient co-operation between them. Please see "Article historys" and decide for yourself. What else would or should be their reason to disgustingly interfere in all major articles pertaining to those of their neighbouring states? I'm not making a mine out of a molehill. What I'm saying is the "Gospel truth." I can provide the names, proofs etc. if needed. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 09:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Am I to understand that there is some ethnocentrism involved in this case? If so this might be a little more problematic(my recommendations stand however.) I advise that you gather your evidence and supporters and go to the mediation committee. ButOnly after you have tried one last time sincerely to work it out. There is not much more to say and this thread is getting rather long. So lets try to wrap it up on this particular talkpage. --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 10:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, I'm more of a pacifist than an aggressor (at least in WP). I've tried explaining and reasoning it out with at least some members of the "gang." This may not be with respect to different ethnic groups, but to people from different parts (unfortunately, only neighbouring states) of India, divided in this case by language, culture etc.. Why should anybody show an unusual amount of interest in removing facts (no citations), deletions, including objectionable portions etc.? Telugu script is a good example of this. I suggest that you please have a look at it, its contributors, their contributions etc. --Altruism^{To talk} 10:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I will take a look as time allows, I hope that you find a resolution--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 11:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I eagerly look forward to an amicable resolution of the dispute. The last I want is animosity. Thank You. Altruism^{To talk} 11:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems like fighting windmills

Once I tried to change "Gravitation" to the way as it is now considered by the mainstream (Einstinian) science and consensus of editors (9:1), including one physicist, reverted it to the Newtonian version (with "attractive force", just read the first sentence of "Gravitation") thinking that what I tried to do was pushing my point of view on gravitation. Since Newtonian gravitation is what they still teach in high schools, editors (rather intelligent ones) are sure that this is right gravitation, possibly with gravitons mediating the "attractive force". So Wikipedia science is still about 100 years away from contemporary science and you want to make it into an advanced scientific thought. That's why I think it is a hopeless enterprise. It is not even a mediocre science it is awfully outdated one. I could predict that Big Bang will be the longest promoted in Wikipedia, while all physicists already switch to newer version of general relativity with stationary universe (as they should by now because of observational data). Until all old editors die out. They still, nearly 100 years after Einstein, believe in "gravitational attraction". Jim 00:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source, so until certain theories are published in accredited peer-reviewed journals(or some equivalently reliable source WP:RS) its inclusion in wikipedia cannot be allow because of our original research policy WP:OR. If you would like to address this concern further please use my talkpage as this does not seem to concern Mr. Wales directly.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 00:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• At the heart of a great debate, are the very nature, basis, and essence of your comments, Jim. When does consensus turn against the better good and the truth? Can a wiki / consensus based system ever be cutting edge; close to the edge? The answer is quite clear to me and it is no. There is the greater fool theory and the theory that there is always a more likely story. Therefore, everything here will be changed until it conforms to some ultimate neutral common man state. 24.1.125.21 03:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Doomed to mediocrity?

I was bouncing around Wikipedia and landed on regression toward the mean and it made me realize that Wikipedia is likely doomed to mediocrity unless something changes. To rise above mediocrity (the mean) requires that exceptional editors make exceptional edits. Wikipedia, however, has no effective means of noticing, validating, and protecting those exceptional edits or those exceptional editors. Therefore it is inevitable that the mob of mediocre editors will make a sufficient number of mediocre edits to eventually return even the best article to a mediocre state. Perhaps this process is forestalled a bit for featured articles that stay on people's watchlists for extended periods but I will wager that the vast majority of Wikipedia articles fluctuate around a mean of mediocrity (at best). The regression toward the mean article itself is a good example as, IMO, the earliest available version is, in some ways, better written than the current version. --Justanother 20:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

{{sofixit}} - CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

{{allofit}} and {{rightnow}}, too! --Justanother 01:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, this is what Citizendium is for. --L^augh! 02:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Featured article status and good article status is something of a buffer against this phenomenon. dr.ef.tymac 03:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be assuming that only authors capable of writing good articles are capable of recognising bad edits and protecting an article. In reality this is not the case. Even if it's true that only certain editors are capable of making better then mediocre edits (whatever that means), it's definitely not true that only they are capable of recognising these mediocore edits. In fact, I think the whole idea is a false principle anyway. Wikipedia never really arises above the mean. We have some good articles, some exceptional articles and a lot of mediocore or worse articles. The rate that more articles are being added is higher then or equivalent to the rate we are improving articles therefore we don't raise above the mean. But this doesn't mean we aren't getting an increasing number of good articles Nil Einne 07:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Regression toward the mean implies that each individual article gravitates toward mediocrity as well as the project as a whole. Statistically, and barring any protection of "exceptional" edits, the greater the number of edits or editors in any given article, the more likely that that article will be mediocre. Articles with fewer edits or editors have a better chance of being truly good or truly bad. I think that I could argue that the number of editors is more a factor than the number of edits. --Justanother 11:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Think of wikipedia as asymptotic towards more accuracy and verifiability. The reason your argument doesn't work in this case is because all of the positives add up and all of the negatives get reverted. This view is in keeping with the trend observed in studies regarding the quality of articles.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 11:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Incrementalism applies also. I was taught in a public administration graduate course that incrementalism equals mediocrity, but there are arguments against that view. Cla68 00:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No fear, due to our revision history system. Say that despite everyone's best efforts, due to the efforts of a hundred mediocre editors over six months, a good or featured article gets dragged down into the mire, so much that it is clearly worse. Finding the version at which it was marked good or featured and reverting to it, takes one editor less than six minutes. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 07:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, to the degree that Wikipedia models a statistically random system, i.e. editors to any given article are drawn from a large random pool, then the laws of entropy also apply and the system and each article will tend to be more chaotic (less ordered). --Justanother 12:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Humans regularly "defy" entropy. Whenever we build something we are defying it, of course it is doomed to fall apart unless we maintain it(but that is what we are doing here at the 'pedia). --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 12:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are mitigating factors. However, I think that we can see entropy at work in the continual creep toward WP:TRIVIA in articles. I am not talking a million monkeys at a million keyboards. I am talking the tendency of each article to move toward a somewhat chaotic mean of poor grammar, poor exposition, and a looooong "Trivia" section. --Justanother 13:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, I don't know what articles you have been working on, but I very rarely see trivia sections anymore (I am a maths editor so I might be immune to this). As for the others, that's what we have the league o' copyeditors for!--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 13:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture. I rest my case. --Justanother 13:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you cannot use a Wikipedia article as a citation for itself. Therefore, you win, case closed. dr.ef.tymac 13:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow oh wow, I asked for that. --Justanother 14:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

There is an inherent assumption at the core of your argument that I want to point out: mean=mediocre. The mean is NOT mediocrity. Mean is a measure of central tendency, i.e., a quantitative descriptor of a set. Mediocre is a qualitative descriptor of any number of things not necessarily related to mathematics. Just because something is average, doesn't mean it is mediocre. Would you consider the average salary of a professional athlete to be mediocre? Especially considering the fact that having a team that has 40 players making 200,000 a year and 40 making between 5 and 20 million a year? I'd say the mean certainly is not mediocre in that case.

My inherent assumption is that the large random pool of Wikipedia editors has a certain mean of perhaps an American college sophomore with concomitant command of the English language, understanding of complex subjects, and ability to see the "big picture". At best. And consider how the command of the English language of the average college sophomore today relates to what might be a standard of literacy of an educated man of 100 years ago. I do think that, for the population of Wikipedia editors as a whole, yes, mean = mediocrity. --Justanother 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, and I once shared them when I first started out on Wikipedia. But, when you work on your favourite articles, properly, for a good length of time, you begin to see the Wikipedia community develops into certain groups, (i.e. Wikiprojects, etc) that work tirelessly to ensure that the articles of their interest are kept upto scratch. Any nonsense is quickly spotted and removes by those knowledgeable people. Infact, during my time, there's been a visible increase of people on PC Patrol, meaning vandalism and rumours and false statements are even less likely to remain on Wikipedia for long. Lradrama 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah articles of their interest but vandalism and such can happen with any article. Quite frankly I'm against unregistered users to contribute excluding talk pages. FMF 22:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

DEMANDING FAIR WIKIPEDIA FOR THOUSANDS DISSIDENTS

Introduction to alternate cosmology controversy and request for assistance
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Dear Mr. Wales, sorry to involve you demanding fairness for meanwhile obviously many thousands dissidents of Astronony, as claimed in [An Open Letter to the Scientific Community] Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004 This is only one document of many thousands to be found. It seems as if Big bang have become more and more something like a religion than a totally serious "winner of a scientific contest”. We feel: Are millions indoctrinated, mislead by one sole theory? Preventing own thinking? It seems to be protected by a caste, erasing all disliked content as in former religious inquisition? We feel students only educated in mainstream, more and more. Thus they more and more seem to fanatically protect “their religion”. Only a little bit proved in related [WIKI Big-bang-section] showing how many religions support it incl. ‘’“Pope Pius XII was an enthusiastic proponent of the Big Bang”’’ for God's saying THERE WILL BE LIGHT - AND THERE WAS LIGHT... (no real joke: what about a new article Big bang religion?). Feynman's Cargo cult science should become well-known for WIKIPEDIA as published in [[12]] and we saw similar prior intentions of yourself. 1. INTRODUCTION: German Astronomical group, not perfect in English (with a little help understandable?), I am writer. We saw: Well known engaged dissidents (some of them already gravely affected: see below), fight against mainstream-astronomy like against windmills feel/felt themselves finally permanently scanned in WIKI in order to revert each writing of them quasi automatically (meanwhile we and I myself personally feel already a bit similar). But this was not prior reason to be (still) anonymous. Our HP was cracked, redirected to “sexy sites”; administrator decided also dynamic IP. DEPRECIATIONS as Experienced: Wiki’s Physicians and Administrators disqualify famous alternative physics simply as no more valid because overruled by Big Bang. Their physicians depreciated consistently in WIKI different astronomical meanings. Even relating to the dissidents anyhow was reverted, partly called as “krank” physics. SOME DISSIDENTS's cites reverted with links to original papers of Halton Arp, Geoffrey Burbidge and his wife, Ashmore, Assis; but especially Fritz Zwicky seeming to have been the representative of the precedent Standard cosmology. Talk pages of 2 involved Admins were promptly cleared. corr. Assis to find is 2. OBVIOUS FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY? [The Biblical Astronomer] vol. 14, no 108, spring 2004, p.33: ‘’"Dr. Hubble never committed himself to the theory of the expanding universe"’’in a letter to Dr. R. A. Millikan, dated 15 May 1952, cited: ‘’“Personally I should agree with you that this hypothesis (tired light) is more simple and less irrational for all of us”’’ - see also http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/UNIVERSE/Universe.html. Only one incredible but evident falsification of history – in WIKI permanent-ized for millions teachers, students, pupils an normal people – is, that Hubble proved Big bang. Many serious paper show the bare contrary, e.g.: 3. ZWICKY's FORMER MAINSTREAM ASTRONOMY Zwicky’s acknowledged astronomical theory, now depreciated (not only because a to him associated name Tired light coined by Richard Tolman) was: Photons have a relativistic mass by Planck physics, – by Einstein predicted and himself calculated but not understood (well-known). Therefore photons with such a kind of mass must loose energy in any gravitational potential field. He considered a (in mean value) homogenous and isotropic potential field by homogenous distribution of charges of masses (all solids and interstellar gas considered ideally as equally distributed everywhere). Zwicky calculated at first - known by ancient physicians since about 1880- the potential from an arbitrarily chosen ZERO-point of distributed charges. For any growing distance this results in a consistently growing gravitational potential. In 1929 he wrote a famous alternative theory using the temporal differential of the potential field (called momentum) for a mass and finally for a photons in [- F.Zwicky: On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space] p.775ff. (mainly p.777). Not a rather logic 3D-theory? Not needing an unimaginable 4D space! Confirmed even by Hubble himself, nearly everywhere quite falsely made researcher prooving grounds for Big bang. 4. MISUNDERSTANDING? LACK OF KNOWLEDGE? PHOTON’S "ZERO-MASS§ Our reminder to this is found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Photon#Please_do_not_forget While in EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG photons (and gravitons) never have any mass, see e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Physical_properties ... the whole other scientific world knows and calculate with a called (photon’s and graviton’s) relativistic mass as postulated by Einstein himself, predicting thereby the Einstein effects, especially gravitational redshift. Not only one here related GERMAN WIKI says about photons in its section MASSE in [Photonenmasse] explicitly mean, that and why real photons never can have a zero mass: "Da die elektromagnetische Wechselwirkung jedoch eine unendliche Reichweite hat, zerfallen Photonen niemals und können daher keine Ruhemasse tragen... Die spezielle Relativitätstheorie hingegen verbietet nicht nur das Erreichen der Lichtgeschwindigkeit für jedwedes mit Ruhemasse behaftete Objekt, sondern liefert auch den direkten mathematischen Nachweis..." ESA = European Space Agency are certainly no stupids calculating satellites in space. They have learnt from the failure of Pioneer anomaly in http://arxiv.org/vc/gr-qc/papers/0603/0603032v1.pdf : ‘’"1. Introduction: It is well known that the mass of the photon and graviton in vacuum must be nonzero. The first limit is given by Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle 1 and the second by the measurement of the cosmological constant in our universe2-4."’’ http://www.math.uni-wuppertal.de/~scholz/preprints/pioneer_12_01_07.pdf ANOTHER LOOK AT THE PIONEER ANOMALY, Erhard Scholz Univ. Wuppertal claims that only a kind of Tired Light - called there “downscaling photons” - could solve Pioneer anomaly as mentioned e.g. in Physical Review D 65:082004(0–50). and thousands others to be found not only in GOOGLE (nearly 10.000 only to ZWICKY TIRED LIGHT but a physics-Project WIKI-Admin meant he is more known for other things). 5. QUANTUM PHYSICS ARE NOT UNDERSTANDABLE, INCL. WIKI-ADMINS! Not only “Einstein’s Spuk” (spooky physics) is proved now [Quantum-Teleportation] showing that Schrödinger and Planck were right (blasting General Relativity = GR?) FEYNMAN, R.P. [1985] QED, The Strange Story of Light and Matter, Princeton University Press, describe Quantum mechanics the transmission of light through a transparent medium: “photons do nothing but go from one electron to another, and reflection and transmission are really the result of an electron (remark: mainly in molecules) picking up a photon, ”scratching its head”, so to speak, and emitting a new photon... What I’m going to tell you is what we teach our physics students in the third or year of graduate school... It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it…. You see my physics students don’t understand it that is because I don’t understand it. Nobody does." WIKI-ADMINISTRATORS ELIMINATE WHAT THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND? Obviously nobody of a large scale of physicians of WIKI PROJECT understood or know solutions of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativily See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exact_solutions : This article or section may be confusing or unclear for some readers. And in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutions_of_the_Einstein_field_equations/ : This article or section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. Basic, well-known solutions were imposed by us in http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Solutions_of_the_Einstein_field_equations&oldid=142221128#Known_solutions , promptly reverted! 6. OUR PHYSICIANS AND MEMBERS Until 2006 they mainly seemed to be - but now more and more "were" - Big bang fans. In 2006 we met John Dobson and a French Professor in an Astronomical-Fair. Meanwhile we learnt quite drastically, that so-called Standard Cosmology is mainly not believed by normal people and that not only by above mentioned critics. Non-standard cosmologies and Tired light are made tendencious also as invalid, as non-cosmology, etc. We enhanced Fritz Zwicky in 2 months from a stub. formerly nowhere found, to a now top found article in MNS and ALTAVISTA searching ("our") WIKIPEDIA article for TIRED LIGHT: second, forth, in Goolge a (anyhow redirected) older WIKI-copy in 14th.

MYSELF: I am our club’s writer also no more sufficiently perfect in English (with a little help understandable?).

Halton Arp praised article's content of section TIRED LIGHT's but not the Englisch, Assis wished us good luck for our (well-known:) desperate fight...

Please apologize our faults and to involve you personally but we mean that objectivy is your sense.

wfc-k (IP see above) 84.158.210.237 13:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear sir or madam, I have restored your edit but be aware that this lengthy comment is not appropriate in the least bit for this talk page. Also it seems that your grammar and spelling suffer at certain points. While I do not mean this as an insult, such problems can lead to a misinterpretation of your intent. Please consider moving your comments to a more appropriate venue (like your talk page for instance). Thank you--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 14:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Consider also enlisting a translator and posting at WP:PHYS. I cannot promise that they will appreciate such a long comment but perhaps you could pare it down to some key points. They certainly would be more well equipped to handle your concern.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 14:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right, we are Germans as mentioned, my personal English certainly (after too many years) worse than the German language, as User:Jimbo Wales has learnt (recently?).

As you will see, the matter (I hope understood by clear links) is a rather serious one for WIKIPEDIA.

wfc-k 84.158.253.105 14:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is a tertiary source, so hopefully we can avoid being involved in conflicts within academic communities by adhering to our policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:RS--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 15:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

From above: Assis wished us god luck for a desperate fight (to put by him also supported Tired Light theorie in a more serious manner (a "shooting star" in searching this); AND "Talk pages of by us 2 involved Admins were promptly cleared." (no answer, to be found if you want). - Our common problem is: also WP:PHYS-members seem mainstream-"dedicated followers of fashion". Above meantioned well-known in WIKI-articles living physicians trying to correct THEIR matter were obviously affected by Administrators; we were accused to rv: "disrupted", "spam" (our old Astronom Dr.Kiesslinger linked 15p. offered payment for print cost), "krank physics" etc. was supported.

wfc-k (dyn IP, see above) 84.158.253.105 15:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

If I am understanding you correctly, you have been reverted by the admins for creating articles outside the mainstream. If this is the case, then it would be best to approach those admins and give them specific sources establishing notability. Be warned that it will be difficult to create more than stub articles that acknowledge the existence of these theories until they are published in accredited peer-reviewed academic journals. (doesn't necessarily have to be "mainstream"). This is the system here, like it or not. --Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 15:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

sorry, an error, see below. We cannot talk for related named important persons, but

BTW I think you mean physicist not physician.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 15:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Cronholm: physicists of course! - Confusing basic words by decades of no practice and/or nervous?

SEARCH LEFT BUTTON ABOVE TO READ TEXT

sorry, Astro-friend did not find it wfc-k 84.158.206.96 17:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Imagine millions see and learn only one version (here of physics)

  Big hope: Clear links above speak quite clearly for themselves without words!

• ANSWER: No Article(s) was CREATED, in Astronomy only Fritz Zwicky 80% enhanced since 3 months.

Please compare old version already enhanced formerly by an Astro-friend, quality:

This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards in

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=130857447

with http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=144259101 especially section

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=144259101#Tired_Light

OUR FAULT: I personally confess that our Astro-club could no more be stopped, finally rehabilitating Zwicky enthusiastically finding always new papers, too much?. We regret with zwo of above named - in WIKI-pages related well-known - alternative physicists what happened. We feel a destruction of his main and our common work:

User:Duae Quartunciae was honored now (therefore) and put in WIKI-Project: He was allowed to disqualify (also) Zwicky’s, quasi naming his idea an error of physics. Until 1953 THE MAINSTREAM. Destroyed WIKI-chance. You find nearly 10.000 entries under "ZWICKY TIRED LIGHT" quite obviously his main work ("what have they done with my song ma")?, see newest part

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Zwicky#Tired_Light

REMINDER: Our section Tired light therein had tried to inform for the first time in WIKI more objectively about one of all more or less depreciated Non-Standard cosmologies: It was strange how we all found suddenly more and more that he was anyhow right. Above linked recent proofs show at least partially(!) significantly better given results for several effects than the Standard model. Searching TIRED LIGHT, it jumped before WIKI's not very objective Tired light. Indicating that people anyhow had found therein something not covered in the normal WIKI ARTICLE Tired light?

• I personally had created - since I got DSL in March - one German WIKI article completely, had enhanced about 25 enhancemants or corr. in different fields; mainly not reverted, e.g. in

NEW 80% of (German Data recovery),

all of a former stub Geröllzyste, (initiated by my accident),

30% of German Arthrosis structured, my sections trans. Prevention, Therapy, and many simple corrections of old articles

Nearly all not reverted and something like "shooting stars" in relation to former ranks by completing most important things that people search...

wfc-k 84.158.216.71 18:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems like you are making progress, yes? In that case is there a particular problem you would like to have addressed? Other than working towards consensus and always following the policies around here, I am not sure what else can be done/said. Just keep on trying to improve the encyclopedia in the spirit of our project, right?--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 19:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

INTERNATIONALLY EVEN BY NASA ACKNOWLEDGED 2007 AS ONE EVIDENCE ONLY

• http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0701132 (by NASA) as newest internationally acknowledged,
• something like most serious evidence that only old, not only here defamed Zwicky's Tired light must revive and seen more seriously?
• simply much better called now "Downscaling photons"?
• if only this can give until now a solution of the Pioneer anomaly?
• Can it be that reverting WIKI administrators are unable to read such given links or will they not?
• And do they not know quite generally that nearly never one theory could solve anything completely?
• Is steadily experienced defamation about well-known alternatives - named by them e.g. NON-COSMOLOGICAL or NO MAINSTREAM !!! - not too unfair?
• something like Feynman's cargo cult science?

PLEASE HELP A BIT IF YOU CAN... sincerely, wfc-k 84.158.245.111 10:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions regarding community evolution

Hi Jimmy,

A company I work for has recently launched a wiki using MediaWiki software (thank you!) for the free, open development of a science fiction universe. The wiki is starting to grow rapidly, and I have some questions about how one should guide community evolution. I see the necessity in a community-governed, community-driven system, and am convinced that is what will make the wiki successful in the long term. However, I suspect that communities can occasionally evolve themselves out of existence, and I wonder if you've ever seen Wikipedia (in the early days) moving in that direction, and needed to take a more active role in guiding policy back to something that was going to provide for longevity of the community. In other words, has the community ever started moving in a direction that conflicted with your vision in such a way that you had to step in and say "While I appreciate your sentiment, these ideas will hurt the community in the long term, therefore, we need to follow 'x' course of action."? For example, if early on the majority of editors favored voting over the current consensus model, would you have acquiesced? Will you let the community decide something you think will hurt Wikipedia in time? I've asked a lot of questions here. If you are too busy to respond, I would also appreciate hearing from someone else who either is close to you and/or was with you near the Beginning. Thanks for your time. Archer904 17:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't here in the early days, but I'm experienced enough to tell you that, all to often, there are individuals who wish to pull off the normal running-course of things and go along their own path with their own ideas. However, most of the community stick firm by the rules that were set down originally anyway, and little comes of the incident. Sorry, but that's all I can offer, but I was so glad that for once, there wasn't a negative question on Jimbo's page that abused him or his creation (Wikipedia) or one whihc voiced their dislike over something. A welcome change. Lradrama 17:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That's very nice of you to say, thank you. I believe that a collective community voice is the strongest normative power, so it is easy for the community to defend itself against crackpots and (often) people who don't share the community's goals. However, I have a vision for what my wiki can become, and part of that vision relies on community evolution. However, strong minorities have torn apart some of the biggest institutions in history, and it is completely conceivable that the same could happen to my wiki, or to wikipedia. What if the community starts to evolve into something that Jimmy is convinced is going to ultimately diminish its scope and mission? Does he let it happen? Does he make convincing arguments and pray they are enough to sway public opinion and get a consensus going, a la Twelve Angry Men? Or does he do nothing and watch it happen? These are some of the things I'm grappling with. Archer904 18:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good question, and the answer that's best can only be provided by Jimbo himself. There are so many, many Wikipedians that affect change on this site, and together, we can be a very powerful force, but this is under Jimbo's ownership. He can decide what he likes and dislikes, and if we were to plan something he hated, does he have the ability to block us all as a last resort? I don't know really, but I'm very interested in the topic you've chosen to discuss - not that I am planning anything of the sort! I love it the way things are. We need Jimbo to comment. Jimbo? JIMBO! Please comment here! Lradrama 18:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is an interesting abstract question here, but fortunately it is more or less abstract. I have never seen the community as a whole drifting in the wrong direction, but then again, I and many other solid community members have been here communicating values and ethics and policies and practices daily for a long time, and most people are basically sane, and so really awful things never seem to take root. Obviously there are borderline cases, and complex disputes about deletionism and the proper role of polling/voting, etc., but mostly we feel our way forward in a reasonable way with patience and toleration. There are certain values that I believe in so strongly that I would gladly risk my role here to stand up for them, and whether or not I would win would be a very interesting question indeed. There is a board, but I am only one of seven board members. I have, completely separately, a traditional role within the English Wikipedia community as a personal "check and balance" on the power of the ArbCom and the process for electing them for example, a role which seems to be generally acknowledged as useful and which I try to carry out as a serious responsibility to be thoughtful, slow, and respectful. If I do something crazy, I imagine the the ArbCom will tell me to knock it off. (Probably personally and privately, of course.) There is a certain useful stability to formalism and tradition, and I think we will likely maintain that for some time to come.--Jimbo Wales 23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

And I have to say I agree with Jimbo. Has that settled your query Archer904? Lradrama 12:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Administrators restoring and endorsing fake Wikipedia warnings

Resolved

Dear Mr. Wales, I went to the user page of another editor with whom I have a little difference of opinion and was met with the fake Wikipedia 'new message' warning below:

You have new messages (last change).

I brought this to the attention of 2 Wikipedia administratiors, Kurykh, and Chaser, who both feel that "a computer hack meant to mimic a legitmate warning of a new message" as being perfectly appropriate for Wikipedia. Link Link I deleted it from the user's page, and the administrator Chaser actually restored it to the user's page. I would hope hope that after the Essjay controversy and the other 'black eyes' like Sinbad, Seigenthaler, and Chris Benoit that Wikipedia would be more interested in protecting its reputation than in hijinks, but jokes and stunts and defense of such actions are apparently more important to 2 of your administrators! Maybe you feel otherwise. In the meantime I added the hoax to my userpage and talk page, and I encourage you to do the same. It's so funny! I changed the link in mine though, and might change it to link to the Wiki Goatse.cx page. Would that be ok? Think if every user on Wiki had this fake warning on their user and talk page each with a different link? Wouldn't that be great fun? Especially for users like academics and historians who might really get a kick out of it! It would be a real 'barrel of laughs'! Don't you think? Thanks for your time. Bmedley Sutler 07:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You're complaining about user space banners that redirect you to a harmless quote? --Tbeatty 07:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have taken this matter to WP:ANI? Oh wait - you did, but didn't get the answer you expected. Note that users have a lot of latitude as to what they can do in their own userspace and 'joke' message bars (which I detest, personally), are borderline acceptable - Alison ☺ 07:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

He did to both AN and AN/I...but it matters not since he must want to joke now too...and has added the template to his page as well, only his directs the innocent to "Lobotomy".--MONGO 09:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

... containing pictures of Howard Dully's ice-pick lobotomy. Highly amusing, I'm sure - Alison ☺ 09:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Another sysop has removed the banner from TDC's user page and I changed the link for the talk page banner to "practical joke". I think this minor matter is resolved, and have marked it as such.--Chaser - T 19:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am not making up any policy on the spot here, so please no one quote this as if it is a decree. But I think such banners are immature, and do not put forward the right attitude of love and respect for others that make for the best within us. When people use such banners, they diminish themselves in the eyes of others I think. It might be different for me if it were actually, well, clever or funny in some intellectually interesting way. I see no reason to ban such things but neither do I wish for them to become common. We are Wikipedians.--Jimbo Wales 23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Policy of speedy deletion

I think it is time to change the policy of allowing admins to just wipe articles off Wikipedia. This is giving them too much power, and can turn deletions into a popularity contest. I think that Wikipedia should allow for a discussion after the speedy deletion tag is placed in order for users to back their articles up. 4 times articles of mine have been deleted, and two were by non-admins who just blanked it. I am seriously getting PO'ed about this popularity contest, and it needs to change NOW. Shanem201 03:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy-deletions are a vital part of the workings of Wikipedia, IMO. Given the amount of vanispamcruft that gets generated by the hour, things would get rapidly out of hand if each article needs to hang around for review. Then there's the whole matter of gross WP:BLP violations, copyvio articles and attack pages. As an aside, you do know about Wikipedia:Deletion review/Content review, right? If your article has been speedied, it can be restored and/or userfied under certain circumstances. See also Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles, of which I'm a member - Alison ☺ 04:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but look at the comment here about User:Blnguyen. This is a case which could be stopped with a little tweaking on the speedy deletion system. Maybe not a long discussion, but I think a verification by another admin would do. Shanem201 04:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how, there. User:Blnguyen (apparently) deleted a bunch of copyvio stuff. That's vital to Wikipedia. I wasn't really following that, mind. There are fairly strict criteria governing what can be speedied and it's not a simple matter of speedying what you like by shoehorning them into whatever CSD category suits. It doesn't work that way. Unless for certain categories (like A7, maybe), it could require a second opinion from any other editor before a admin speedies the article. That might work ... - Alison ☺ 05:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I'm getting at. Here's a little story which may help you see my point. Let's say one admin has someone they positively loathe and despise. As an admin, they could follow the user they hate, and speedy each article, causing a big dispute. If we limit one-admin speedys to vandalism and spamming, it will allow articles that could be useful a second opinion before being deleted, and hopefully clear up and abuse, such as in the case up above. Let's face it, I bet you have had disagreements with other admins about which articles should be speedied (not counting vandalisim or spamming). Shanem201 12:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Default to "Keep" aka The Common person rule

It might be wise to establish a general policy whereby, any article not blatantly violating policy and guidelines at Wikipedia, will be kept, unless and until a minimum number of editors and administrators have made verifiable attempts to improve same. (12, for example.) (i.e., Make it more difficult to delete. It should not be more difficult to revert a deletion than the deletion itself.) That element of this encyclopedia, in and of itself, is self destructive, in my opinion.

Sadly right now, a select group or "click" of very few administrators can be established to swiftly eliminate anything and everything here, with malice and the wrong motivation as a justification for such an action. "Speedy" deletions should only be allowed when any common person would know that such an article violates the spirit and policy of this project. Editors that do such a deed should be held accountable and lose their powers if it is later established and proven that they did not act in good faith, or as so stated above. Maybe this has been tried and it failed to gain consensus, but it sure seems simple to me. Why is there a hurry to eliminate information, when the whole basis for this project is to gather it and share it? 24.1.125.21 14:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There a number of very specific situations where speedy deletion can be used, found at WP:CSD. These are the only circumstances where administrators can delete content without a debate, where it directly contravenes or fits one of those policies. There is not group of admins banding together against new articles that do not break the speedy deletion policy. As long as each admin follows policy, there is little need for a second opinion, as the next admin will also follow the same policy. ck lostsword•T•C 14:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I found this to be interesting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_cabals Thank you for the information ! 24.1.125.21 15:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

"Speedy" deletions should only be allowed when any common person would know that such an article violates the spirit and policy of this project. - And how on earth are we supposed to make such an abstract determination in a "speedy" fashion? If we allow deletions because admins think a page violates the spirit (and almost all pages violate a policy if you look hard enough), that is much easier to abuse than the current system which gives very specific rules, formed by consensus. Why is there a hurry to eliminate information - The only hurry we have is to eliminate such things as copyvios, blatant advertising, attack pages, vandalism, nonsense, articles that don't provide enough information to be remotely usable, articles like "Joe Smith is the coolest person in Cleveland, OH. He invented oxygen", and similar things. Editors that do such a deed should be held accountable and lose their powers if it is later established and proven - We already do that, its called WP:ARBCOM, they need to do it multiple times with multiple complaints first, but if you think an article was deleted improperly, go to WP:DRV. If you notice a pattern of abuse, try WP:ANI (also see Category:Wikipedian administrators open to recall). any article not blatantly violating policy and guidelines at Wikipedia, will be kept, unless and until a minimum number of editors and administrators have made verifiable attempts to improve same. (12, for example.) - You obviously have not seen some of our backlogs, nor the sheer amount of bad articles that come through Special:Newpages sometimes. A policy like that will quickly lead to some speedy deletions taking longer than WP:AFD, because nobody will want to review them. Also, most speedy criteria are already based on blatant violations of other policies and guidelines (WP:SPAM, WP:N, WP:COPYVIO, WP:NONSENSE, etc.). Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 16:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Administrator abuse is an example of an article that was speedy deleted despite the people that supported the deletion having admitted that it didn't meet any of the speedy deletion criteria. The main problems were lack of sources and lack of notability. A.Z. 21:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Both of which are criteria for speedy though it was correctly speedied as an attack page. We shouldnt be too welocming of new articles unless they can prove notability and wont present any potential BLP problems so i would have thought making speedies easier not harder is the way to go, SqueakBox 21:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my position that they are not criteria for speedy deletion. Please, tell me what BLP means. A.Z. 21:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:BLP, its a policy re living people, SqueakBox 21:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, though this specific article is not about a living person, which means you think we shouldn't be welcoming of it because it can't prove it's notability and because you think it's an attack page. A.Z. 21:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, deletion is no big deal, and the speedy deletion policy is likely to become more inclusive over time, not less. I would welcome that, but it is not my decision to make.--Jimbo Wales 23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

If we had discussions on a speedy deletion request, then it wouldn't be a speedy deletion would it? The whole point of a speedy deletion is to get rid of an article that is considered vandalism as quickly as possible, so as fewer people end up reading it as possible. Discussions can be found on WP:Articles for deletion because consideration may be needed. If this was the case for SD aswell, think of the amount of extra time we'd need - it wouldn't be speedy at all. Only articles that are blatant vandalism should be given the speedy deletion tag. Lradrama 12:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Eh hemmmm ? All I said was "cool" in response to the above reply by Jimbo, and my comment was deleted. Nicht Vahr?

I was not remarking "out of the blue," (i.e., I was responding, following my comment above.) See what I mean about being speedy? Sometimes if I walk in your shoes for a mile or so, I might know you a little bit better. Then I will, perhaps, not be so inclined as to judge you so quickly. I understand more now, and I thank you. 24.1.125.21 13:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant

		The LGBT Barnstar
		message Werkbittt 15:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting insult. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that it is an insult, exactly. Werkbittt appears to have created about 20 User pages that, like his own, consist of nothing but the this Barnstar. Are these all socks? Is this a problem? Bielle 15:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What he means by this I cannot say. Normally, I'd have thought this was just a classy way to proclaim "THIS EDITOR IS GAY!!!", but seeing s he's put it on his own userpage... Yep, definitely a problem, one of the Admins watching this page should speedy block. --The Raven's Apprentice ^{(PokéNav|Trainer Card)} 16:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What is Jimbo Wales's sexual orientation? A.Z. 21:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

See Jimmy_Wales#Career for reference to his wife. Also see this section's header for how much that matters.--Chaser - T 23:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, so you think that doesn't matter. We disagree on that. There are other editors who think it's important, thus the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people. Jimbo would be on that list, if he were gay. We can't safely say yet that he shouldn't be on that list, though, since the fact that he has a wife doesn't mean he's straight. A.Z. 23:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Discuss that on other pages, not Jimbo's usertalk page, please. --Deskana (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[trimmed to allow for edit conflict with Jimbo below]I suppose, actually, that here WOULD be the best place to discuss such a thing - only Jimbo knows, after all, how he identifies: the subject has never come up in interview. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am heterosexual, but would not consider it to be an insult to be mistakenly identified, any more than I would find it an insult to be mistakenly thought to be from Mississippi or New York rather than Alabama. On the other hand, New York Magazine once said that I was at a fancy party wearing corduroy pants, when I own no corduroy pants and did not attend the party. That was much worse. Corduroy pants?--Jimbo Wales 23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Great! Let's go through the list of every notable Wikipedian and ask them the same question. Aha, BLP subjects at our factfinding mercy... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Now the real question is, who's masquerading as Jimbo? (And as a side comment, why don't we have a WP:ONWHEELS page?) --L^augh! 08:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

While Werkbitt's actions in particular seem questionable, isn't the intention of barnstars (Wikipedia:Barnstars) to congratulate editors who have worked hard and the intention of the various kinds to differentiate in what particular area or subject the editor is being commended on. The LGBT Barnstar is intended to congratulate an editor on working in areas related to LGBT issues or relevant to the LGBT community and in no way should be taken as any indication whether either editor is or isn't LGBT (i.e. it's irrelevant). Just the same as for example, the Jewish barnstar doesn't indicate either editor is or isn't Jewish. Not that there is anything offensive with being mistakenly identified either way as Jimbo said Nil Einne 12:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Why the hell is this discussion taking place on Jimbo's page? It is wholly innapropriate. Lradrama 12:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. An ironically self-inclusive statement, that simultaneously (wholly) declares both itself and Jimbo's response (on his own talkpage) to be inappropriate. I'll have to ponder the paradox of it. Peace.Lsi john 16:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi

SOME QUESTION MORE: Did you analise the very first block Tobias Conradi received and how this was out of policy? And when he complained he got out of policy blocked again? And then he got blocked for moving a town article to the correct name, but the admin without any grasp of the topic thought this was vandalism and blocked Tobias, protected even his talk? Did you see this?

• Context... this appears to be Tobias Conradi (talk · contribs) editing around a block from an IP and complaining about a series of blocks he received for violating his civility parole.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Was that huge and ridiculous title necessary, when it simply repeats the first few lines of your comment? Lradrama 17:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I cut it down. There's no point in discussing things using sections if we can all use headers! --Deskana (talk) 00:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Pauley Perrette Link

Thanks for posting that link on the Pauley Perrette talk page. I added the info (gave credit/reference) to the page. Take Care....NeutralHomer ^T:C 05:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I know...

...you're not the Help Desk, but this issue seemed to be a more nuanced interpretation of policy than was appropriate for that forum. Awhile back, I did a big cleanup job on non-nude photography, and one of my final actions was to remove this image from the article. It seemed to me that it is uncertain (to say the least) whether these girls are adults. While I'm whole-heartedly in support of WP:NOT#CENSORED, sexually suggestive images of minors seems to cross the ethical line. What is your opinion on the possibility of deleting the image? All the best, VanTucky ^(talk) 22:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

From the user talk page history, it looks like the uploader has a string of deleted copyvio images, and if you search on his claimed name, it looks like he's being given credit for Wikipedia photos that we don't have anymore. And that there is only one non-wikipedia-related hit on his name. He's only contributed once this year. He was asked back in February to present a model release from a parent or guardian, and has so far not done so, even though he edited in April. I think both those images[13][14] should be deleted. BenB4 12:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm copying this to the ANI, since the model release issue is potentially serious. BenB4 13:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

They are up on IFD. BenB4 20:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Ben. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to people's attention. I think it will surely be deleted soon.--Jimbo Wales 23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope you will share your opinion at the IFD discussion, because it's no consensus at present. ←Ben^B4 00:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Just an update if you're interested: the images were deleted, and then this was undone and another IFD debate is on-going. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds just like the rape victims category (ie it gets deleted and then someone restores it). Excellent work, Van Tucky, SqueakBox 22:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

And excellent work, Jimbo, too, in deleting the images, SqueakBox 02:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Squeak. VanTucky ^(talk) 03:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Residence

Jim, do you still live in the little rancher at 3911 Harrisburg, or have you moved? This was the original address of the Foundation -- that's how I know. --theodoros

I resurrected this abusive trolling question just to answer it factually and simply: no, I do not live at 3911 Harrisburg, not for a long time. I currently live with Osama bin Laden in a cave in an undisclosed location. We watch DVDs of Lost with Jimmy Hoffa.--Jimbo Wales 23:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

And, presumably, Elvis? ck lostsword•T•C 00:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

And that is another pointless question on this page, too many of which end up being in-depth discussions. Lets hope this one stops here. Lradrama 12:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, let's hope ;-) Someguy1221 03:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'd heard Osama was a big DHARMA Initiative fan. Thanks for making me laugh out loud.--Isotope23 ^talk 20:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to judge the Wikipedia:Best User Page Contest next week?

I would like you to join us in the userpage contest on the first week of August to judge the tournament of champions. Please respond as soon as possible. Thank you. Marlith 00:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I find it extremely unlikely that Jimbo has time to waste on silly things like this, Marlith. --Deskana (talk) 00:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I must agreeMarlith 00:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't he seems to spend a real lot of time on Wikipedia anyway, well, that's what his contributions suggest. So I doubt he'd even think about taking part in that. ;-) Lradrama 11:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmph, I spend a lot of time on Wikipedia. I read a lot, and answer tons of emails. I edit through meatpuppets mostly, ha ha. Anyway, I had best stay out of such contests, because there might be hurt feelings and so on. --Jimbo Wales 16:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Marlith, you might want to re-allocate the time you spend looking for judges, since this "contest" seems to be slouching toward the bit bucket. dr.ef.tymac 16:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Jimbo, my wording was a bit harsh. If it wasn't for you, where would we all be now? Wikipedia is one of the world's greatest wonders! Lradrama 19:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Trivia sections on Wikipedia

I wonder if you would take a moment to comment on the discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:Avoid trivia sections. This debate has been going on for a long time and the community seems to be split down the middle. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this debate but it has very far-reaching implications for Wikipedia, and your opinion could help to finally get things moving in one direction or another.

As the trivia guideline stands right now, it seems to be interpreted as saying that no article should ever contain a Trivia section, and any article that does is flawed. A template is placed on any page that has a trivia section, and it makes no mention of when the template itself should be removed — seeming to imply that only the removal of said trivia section constitutes removal of the template.

So I was wondering if you could review the for/against arguments and offer your opinion. As I said, this debate does not seem to be going anywhere, and your insight could really help. Thanks.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

01:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this matter...?

Hi guys. I am a relatively ne wikipedian and according to your username policy, one may not have a name of a celebrity. I did not know where to ask this soo..here it goes... Does this rule apply to me? I am aware that I am not above the wikilaw, but I would like to ask to be able to keep my username of WhiteyBulger for the following reasons:

1. It is HIGHLY unlikely tha Mr. Bulger, a fugitive of the US government, would post here.

2. Whitey just a nickname, not James J., his real name.

3. Mr. Bulger is not really a celebrity.

If this is a problem, which I hope is not, I would like to change my name. I just wanted to bring this by you preemptively, before an administrator complained.

Thank you very much for you time, WhiteyBulger 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

No, no, and no. Your name could easily be seen as the name of a living person, unless it's very common (For example, if the man was named John Smith, you might have a case) -- and given that you admit that you ARE named after him, yes, your username is inappropriate and bannable. Please create a new account with a name that does not impersonate someone --L^augh! 03:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you not get a beurocrat to rename your account for you? I agree with the above comment, users under the names of celebrities might be mistaken for the real person. And as for your comment saying that he is unlikely to ever post here, why is that? He has every right as the rest of us to contribute to this encyclopedia - you never know - if he got bored..... I bet lots of celebrities have edited here under names that means know-one will recognise them. So please do not use famous names. Cheers, Lradrama 10:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Bcrats will usually not change the names of new users-- especially considering this account seems to have been made JUST to insult the guy --L^augh! 10:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I see. He'll have to get a new account then. And no insults or personal attacks then please 'WhiteyBulger', there's a good chap. Lradrama 10:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

granting adminship by fiat

I would be grateful if you could drop a quick note here to show you are aware of what otherwise would look like an out-of-process granting of admin powers to User:Until(1 == 2). regards, dab (𒁳) 18:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I modified the link to reflect the name change of the header.--Isotope23 ^talk 19:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe that administrator rights have been granted to User:Until(1 == 2) inappropriately, based on the evidence I have seen. --Deskana (talk) 14:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

We talk about principle, rather than this particular case. I would also like to know Jimbo's opinion. --Ghirla^-трёп- 22:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

For the reasons I have expressed in the thread that is cited, the practice referred is appropriate in a limited number of cases, including the one mentioned here. Continued discussion of this matter on-wiki is not in the best interests of the project. Newyorkbrad 00:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

User:DB

I see here that Josh has undone your unblocking of User:Daniel Brandt, reblocking him for creating HM2. I just want to bring it to your attention, I dont have a clear opinion either way on this one, SqueakBox 01:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You may also wish to be aware of this WilyD 21:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Mr Wales, I know Daniel Brandt has a lot of real world clout and he can bring angry storms of criticism upon Wikipedia, but allowing him to edit is completely damaging to the project. He drives off good-spirited hard working volunteers and it brings everybody's morale down to see someone flouting other people's right to privacy and right to disappear like that. His contributions do not outweigh the destruction he does. -Nard 22:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The New Wikipedia Sexual Assault Outing Network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_23#Category:Rape_victims

hard to believe this may survive deletion. Here on the right, bullet 3 and 4] would seem to juxtapose iteslf against this list. I certainly understand that some sexual assault vicitms may want to publicize their experience in the hope that it helps others avoid or cope with the trauma that is sexual assault but I don't see how Wikipedia is helping with a category that doesn't expand on that aspect of it. Also there seems to be huge BLP potential for abuse espcially "sneaky vandalism." --Tbeatty 04:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Days like this, I wish we did not have a category system. :-/--Jimbo Wales 20:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Well that is good to know! My take is that while if one goes to a bio page and discovers that a person has been raped that is one thing but a list of rape victims where readers can go and find out who has been raped is another and unacceptable, SqueakBox 20:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Australian War Memorial

Just thought I'd let you know that some people do see Wikipedia as an excellent source of information, see this example Gnangarra 13:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree - Wikipedia IS an excellent source of information. Look at the only external link in my college's moodle website! It's Wikipedia! Lradrama 13:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:FIVE

There has been a question raised at Wikipedia talk:Five pillars#Wikipedia is not a trivia collection, regarding the evolution of the five pillars. Since these things tend to be interpreted as "the principles of Wikipedia that have always been there", I thought you might have something to say. --Eyrian 19:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

factions are cancer

HI,

I've heard people say that leaving a message on your talk page isn't the best way to go, but well..

Would you mind writing/cowriting/putting your imprimatur on an essay Wikipedia:Factions are cancer? Man I am sick of it all...

So I guess it would be written by longtime Wikipedians, with some stuff thrown in by sociologists or sports psychologists about "cancer in the locker room" etc etc.

That's all! Ling.Nut 21:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The thing about leaving messages here is that you will get replies from about a hundred other editors before Jimbo makes it here. When you say "factions", how do you mean that? Cliques of editors? I think that, with such a wide array of people who edit here, it is natural for like-minded editors to gravitate toward one another. What are the concerns that you have with this, and how would you propose dealing with those issues? - Crockspot 21:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he means mob mentality. If an opinion is expressed that's unpopular with a particular "faction," they have enough voices that they don't really need a cohesive argument in order to force their way; they can back each other up without any effort. This is nothing new, in fact I'm pretty sure it's one of the most common criticisms of Wikipedia. I agree with it somewhat, as I've only just recently gotten a taste of it — I tended not to involve myself with AfD and policy issues before.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

08:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with other editors replying is that I have zero-point-zero desire to discuss the issue (and so will not). But no. Not as described by Equazcion. More protracted, more personal, more widespread across numerous forums. Ling.Nut 10:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to at least take a clue from these responses as proof that the idea behind your proposed essay is unclear. You might want to discuss it with us just enough so that there's a more adequate description available for Jimbo to read/understand/decide on.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

10:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello!

You might not see this or read it, but oh well- Smile! Hope you have a great day!

PolarWolf has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Polarwolf (talk • contribs) 07:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)