Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq

Archives, etc

This article may contain material merged from a duplicate article, now archived at Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Other, along with its complete history; its Talk: page has similarly been archived at Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Other-Talk. Noel (talk) 13:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• /Archive 1 – 17 March 2003 to 24 February 2005
• /Fpahl vs Silverback (topical) – 8 October 2004
• /Archive 2 – 5 August 2005
• /Archive 3 – 8 February 2006
• /Archive 4 – Feb 2006-Aug 2006
• /Archive 5 - Aug 2006-Feb 2007

Error in the very first sentence.

So the invasion of iraq was carried out by the US only and not a coalition of countries huh? That will come as news to the worlds historians. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.8.105.64 (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

point taken, but you seem to mistake the 'invasion' and occupation here. the only other party involved in the actual invasion with troops on the ground was the U.K. the (small) bulk of the 'coalition' forces from other countries, led by poland, arrived long after the fall of baghdad to participate in the occupation.

The United Kingdom made up 25% of the invasion force. The opening sentence says it was an invasion by the U.S. (only) The opening sentence is inacurate, it should be changed.

The opening sentence does not now, did not at the time you made this comment, nor has it ever, to my knowledge, made the claim that the US was the only force in the invasion. It simply did not also say that there were other countries as part of the coalition. Omission is not the same thing as explicitly stating "it was only the US".--chris.lawson 23:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It certainly can be taken that way, though. I would think one of the aims of an encyclopedia would not only be factual accuracy but also in not wanting to inadvertently allow a wrong impression to be made through omission.--71.243.79.56 16:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

let's call a spade a spade, folks. i edited it again to indicate United States as the invading country. there is certainly adequate room given to the description of the coalition in the subsequent lines of the opening paragraph.

Someone put a nice euphemistic phrase "multinational forces" in, which I think should make the US apologists fairly happy. I just added a "US-led" prefix, as a bow to the numerical reality (really, the US role and the Polish role, were, um, not equal :)) ~~

I personally do not like nitpicking some things to death but in the interest of placating those who do, why not either have a small section that fleshes out the controversy or, in the very least, explain where "invasion" ends and "occupation" begins.

One might also consider that if any country offered support during the invasion, such as "use of airbases" or "use of radar facilities" etc then they should definitely be mentioned, at least, as supporting the invading force. Your use of the phrase, "the US apologists" betrays a tremendous bias but, ultimately, I think the impression Wiki SHOULD be giving is not a pro-this or anti-that viewpoint but, as one would think obvious, as factual an accounting as possible. Let's put the politics aside and just say exactly what happened as we should and sorry if I didn't use all the proper Wiki lingo.--71.243.79.56 16:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Addition to casus belli

I added something to the casus belli. The most clear-cut justification for the war was the numerous occasions in which Iraq violated the cease-fire that ended the 1991 Persian Gulf War. For example: Iraqi forces opening fire, or preparing to open fire (i.e. SAMs acquiring missile lock on aircraft), on any Coalition forces (namely the Coalition aircraft patrolling the northern and southern no-fly zones) would cause Iraq to be in violation of the cease-fire, in which case any Coalition member who so chose could resume hostilities with Iraq. And there were numerous instances (sometimes as many as one a week) of Iraqi AAA firing on (or SAMs acquiring a lock on) U.S and British aircraft. I just figured that this should be included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.50.151.8 (talk) 05:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

Part of war on terror?

Was this invasion part of war on terror? If yes, why doesn't this article mention this (for instance in the infobox)? If not, why is Ba'athist Iraq named as "Targets of Operations" in infobox of war on terror article? A bit of inconsistency... :-\

Rationale

The rationale section had a very unencyclopedic sentence regarding the asserted relation between al-Qaeda and Hussein. I have replaced it with the accepted facts--that the link was asserted on the basis of faulty intelligence and later disproved; this has, of course, been accepted by both supporters and opponents of the invasion. Benzocane 05:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm hoping others will help me improve the Rationale section. Mackabean has made some good edits, but it still needs work. I've altered a few of Mackabean's revisions (the style, not the content). It seems to me that the Rationale section is one of the most important sections of the entry and should be expanded and clarified. Benzocane 21:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I have made further edits to this section. The general thrust of the edits is to 1. Explain that WMDs together with Iraq's purported link to terrorism were the major pre-war justifications of the invasion. And that 2. As those justifications have been challenged, the rationale has shifted to humanitarian issues. What do people think? Are these changes helpful? --Mackabean 18:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think these edits are useful. Keep it up! I think the article has made considerable progress in the last few days--thanks for your help.Benzocane 18:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to track down an online copy of the Cheney Energy Plan, to see how clearly it spelled out in 2001 the occupation of Iraq as a strategic plan. I mean, granted, if you pay any attention to the US oil consumption numbers, and the export numbers, and the historical contribution of Saudi Arabia as the mainstay of preserving the US economy, its obviously an important step in the Cheney (et al.) strategic plan, but I think for anything like this article, where apologists will wish to push propaganda points-of-view (rather understandably so, to be fair), it would be better to quote documents written by Cheney et al. if at all possible.

Legality section

I shifted that section of the prelude text discussing the legality of the invasion to an independent section. I did this because 1) it seems that discussions of the legality of the invasion are scattered throughout this entry and should be consolidated for the sake of clarity and in order to avoid needless repetition (the entry is already approaching 100k). 2) The debates about the legality of the invasion were not just part of the prelude to the invasion, but continue. It seems to me this writing could still be improved--I haven't improved the text, just moved it. Thoughts? Benzocane 22:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree on the value of a separate legality section. The question of legality is obviously a central and ongoing issue with the invasion, and the discussion of that issue is currently scattered across the article. I will try to do a scan and see if there are other mentions of legal issues that should be moved to this new section. --Mackabean 00:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the following sentence: "Bush Administration officials have pointed out that, according to this reasoning, the Clinton Administration's decision to bomb Iraq in 1998 in Operation Desert Fox would also have been a violation of international law." First, it has no source. Second, the fact that other military operations might have violated international law, does not bear on the question of whether or not the invasion was legal. It makes it sound like the Bush administration is saying "It doesn't matter if it's legal; look what Clinton did." This doesn't strike me as an accurate representation of the administration's position. Thoughts?Benzocane 17:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree with this change. Certainly the fact that Clinton did it too was not the central legal justification for the Bush Administration. In fact, as I think you point out, just because the Clinton Administration arguably broke international law does not have any bearing on whether the Bush Administration did. But from a political point of view, the Bush Administration definitely used the Clinton bombing campaign to argue that their actions had some kind of precedent. To put it another way, Bush and his advisers argued that if no one made a big stink about the legality of the Clinton bombing campaign, they can't really complain about the legality of the 2003 invasion. I don't think this point is insignificant. Do others have thoughts?--Mackabean 20:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, I made some more changes to this section, adding the following sentences: "These critics have also pointed out that the statements of U.S. officials leading up to the war indicated their belief that a new Security Council Resolution would be required to make an invasion legal. For example, in order to secure Syria's vote in favor of U.N. Resolution 1441, Secretary of State Powell reportedly advised Syrian officials that "there is nothing in the resolution to allow it to be used as a pretext to launch a war on Iraq"." I think it is an important point that U.S. officials seemed to be suggesting that an invasion would have been illegal without a new resolution (after 1441) but that when they could not get that resolution, they changed their legal arguments. Thoughts on whether this is worth including>?--Mackabean 20:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

My rather limited point is only that the claim "Clinton also violated international law" doesn't bear on whether or not the invasion was legal. Two illegals don't make a legal, so to speak. Since the previous operation has its own entry, it seems to me that debates about its legality should take place there.

I understand your rather limited point, and while I still don't agree that it is irrelevant to this section, I don't feel that strongly. I will go look for the article on Operation Desert Fox to see if it would be appropriate to add discussion of its legality there. --Mackabean 13:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved the last paragraph about controversy over whether the war was illegal (specifically comments from Richard Perle and Lord Goldsmith) to the beginning of this section. I think makes the section more readable since the controversy is explained at the beginning of the section, and then rationale for the legality of the invasion follows. Let me know if you disagree. Midwestmax 20:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if that edit makes it more readable or not, but I don't object to it. Benzocane 21:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Order and length of sections

I think it's a little odd that we list decorations before casualties. It seems to me that the latter should precede the former. Thoughts? I'm going to go ahead and switch their order, but am interested in what others think. Benzocane 16:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Libya paragraph from the prelude section. The following claim has nothing to do with the prelude to the invasion, rather is an observation about one of its possible effects:

The invasion is claimed to have been a contributing factor to Muammar al-Gaddafi's decision to disclose and give up his nascent nuclear program. However, the existence of such a weapons program is in doubt, and some suspect that it suited all involved to exaggerate - or even invent - both the threat posed by the alleged program, and the sacrifice made in abandoning it.

If the concensus is that the paragraph should be in this article, it seems to me that it should be placed in another section. Thoughts? Benzocane 05:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm 100% with Benzocane. I've moved media above decorations and related phrases as it seems to be of more 'encyclopedic' worth.Calicali5 23:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the decorations section is appropriate. It should be its own page.Calicali5 23:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Media

I restored the bit about Indymedia that Midwestmax deleted during his edits. I generally think his edits are good, but given the historical role of indy media in the invasion, it seems important to include that information. If anything, I think this section could be expanded, given that this was the first invasion in history that was pretty much on TV all the time. Calicali5 23:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV violation in info box

I have removed the assertion that Bush went to war because of an alleged assassination attempt against his father. The source given for this claim says nothing of the sort. No matter how many ultra-ultraliberal commentators claim the contrary, there is no evidence that Bush went to war for such petty reasons. Placing such a line in the info box is a clear NPOV violation.Benzocane 23:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Crappy current page burries information

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2003_invasion_of_Iraq&oldid=28954327#Rationale has awesome layout, much more citeable than current.

Shortened Prelude

In an effort to try to shorten the article, i edited down the prelude. Some of the information (e.g., mentions of the Iraq Study Group) were not relevant to the prelude to the invasion. Also, much of the information that was in the prelude (e.g., issues related to WMD investigations) is covered in more detail elsewhere, so I tried to make this a more general summation. Any comments welcome. --Mackabean 19:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Coalition deaths

Those 3000+ are of the total Iraq war and not of the invasion, only about 200 died during the invasion, on the source there sais these numbers are from the beginning of the Iraq war till 2007 so thease are defenetly not only the invasion casulaties. The Honorable Kermanshahi

Yea, I noticed this as well. This article is specifically about the invasion, not the entire war. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Good catch on this. The article should better distinguish between casualties during the invasion and casualties during the occupation. I have tried to do so with a quick rewrite. FYI, I got the Iraq Body Count numbers by taking 30 percent of their total casualties number that was released in 2005, as their report says that 30 percent of the total casualties as of 2005 were from the invasion period. See here: [1]. I think that math makes sense, but if someone sees it differently, please holler. Also, in terms of whether the total number of casualties should be in there (3,000 / 60,000 / 600,000), I would vote for keeping them in. The division between the invasion and occupation is somewhat artificial, and I think a reader looking at a casualties paragraph in this article shouldn't have to poke around to other articles for the total numbers. I supported this invasion, and think it remains worth the price in terms of dollars and casualties (incredibly regrettable as both are). But I think we owe it to readers not to obscure that cost. Thoughts?--Mackabean 00:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good, I agree with showing the total casualties since the invasion started. Will you also include the source of the statistics? I'm not sure about the coalition/American casualties, but I know there's been some controversy over the number of Iraqis killed. How about the number of wounded, I don't recall seeing any information on that yet. Khono 06:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Media Coverage

In the section about media coverage there are 2 subsections about international media coverage. Considering the 2nd subsection is about Al-Jazeera I think that this should be changed to Arab Media Coverage. Also perhaps someone should take the time to expand this section. Tell me if I'm off base here.

Shortcord 17:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree about changing to Arab Media Coverage, but I do think it would benefit from adding information about other news coverage e.g. the BBC, DFN etc. 81.132.51.234 09:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC) Elmo

Use of word coalition

I have been poking around this and other Iraq war articles, and have some concerns about the use of the term "coalition." By grouping the 40 some countries who provided logistical and other support as members of the coalition, I feel like it gives them credit for supporting the war when, in fact, they were never really willing to put large numbers of troops on the ground. The truth is that the U.S. and U.K. were the only countries who had the guts to put their own soldiers in serious harms way to get rid of one of the world's worst tyrants, and I am little sick of other countries getting credit for helping with the invasion when they really didn't. I think that this article (and) others, should do a better job of making clear who was really willing to help out in this invasion. I plan to try to make this clearer (such as in the intro paragraph, which refers a to the coalition without any explanation) but wanted to get others thoughts before moving ahead with the edit. --Mackabean 21:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, who coined the term? I don't really follow the news, but I got the impression that that is what Washington referred to them as. Perhaps you can link to a detailed article about all members of this coalition and their contributions.

I'm not sure if this is needed or not, but just in case it is, please try not to flavour what you write (doesn't matter in the discussion thread, IMO) with your own personal beliefs. I suspect that this statement: "U.S. and U.K. were the only countries who had the guts..." would inflame many readers ;) Khono 06:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mackabean. It is hardly equitable to credit the bit players, most of whom were heavily bribed, with apparently equal credit. The forces are very obviously mostly US, and only UK also contributed serious numbers into harm's way. I just coined a phrase, which I humbly suggest might be some sort of starting point? The US-led whatever. That gives immediate credit to the US, which obviously poured the vast lion's share of money, and the lion's share of foot soldiers (and all other types of soldiers). It is a prefix, so you can attach it to a phrase such as multinational, so you still get at least lip service to the others, because they should certainly get some mention! Now, it is still flawed in that UK, which really did contribute bodies, is lumped in with the bit players and the bribed players, but, maybe someone smarter can figure out a fix for that too?

Agreed, as well. It is certainly not the same kind of coalition that was in play in the first skirmish with Iraq. Perhaps someone can flesh it out but I'll make a general distinction if someone hasn't already.--71.243.79.56 16:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Iraqi refugees since the invasion started

I've read a few different numbers and was wondering if anyone would be willing write a section telling the number of refugees. I hear the UN has done at least one study on the matter. Khono 18:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that there already is a seperate article on the Iraqi refugee crisis. Shortcord 19:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a link with a sentece, or half a sentence, would do the trick then. Khono 23:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Well there's a link to the article in the main Iraq War article. Not sure you need it in this article. Shortcord 01:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

mis -reporting

Tony Blair will go down in history as the First British Prime Minister to be hounded out of office by the mis-reporting of the media. The war in Iraq began in March 2003 and ended with the removal of Saddam Hussein in April 2003. A war which lasted only 30 days, with very few British casualties. In so doing he rid the Middle East of the biggest threat to its safety.

The Iraq Civil War between Moslem Shia and Moslem Sunni’s, which Tony Blair tried to prevent should not be regarded as a Blair failure, Yet the media have blamed him for it. The blame rests squarely on the Modern Moslem Jihad beliefs which are contrary to Tony Blair’s Judeo-Christian belief that: ”life is sacred - and peace is desirable”. The Modern Moslem beliefs, as portrayed in Iraq, cherish “death and destruction”. This is not true Islam as preached by Mohammed but the usurped Islam as preached by the extremists who have taken over. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.126.181 (talk) 12:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Well, it's terrific that you have an opinion on the matter, but if you think this should go into the article you might want to include some sources. Just to give you an example of why this would be needed is that I, personally, do not agree with what you're saying. However, I haven't researched the matter in the past and would enjoy checking any sources you linked.

Is it just me, or is there still a great deal of combat and death in Iraq? Aren't people still fleeing the country for their lives? Isn't it still occupied by foreign soldiers? You also assert that Saddam Hussein was "the Middle East's biggest threat to safety", yet if you were to ask me what that threat is, I'd say it's the US, as is mentioned throughout Noam Chomsky's Failed States. Furthermore, I find your second paragraph to be bordering, if not over the line, of racism, or perhaps bigotry. Khono 20:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No, Iraq is no longer "occupied". It is among more than 100 nations with US military bases. Are the UK and Germany occupied? More Americans are dying from asprin than in Iraq.

Btw, President George Washington was the first to deal with attacks by global Islamic terorists. Eventually it was resolved by President Jefferson, but not until the Islamists attacked as far north as Iceland. Europe just paid them off appeasement, and the US Congress first authorized the US Navy and Marine Corps. Congress demanded the release of American slaves held by the Barbary pirates and was told: "That it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise." Perhaps even back then the US was a racist Islam-hating nation? Once the American slaves were freed, anti-Islamia in the US faded, until 9-11.

If not for the US Army, you would be living with swastikas. When it comes to human rights, the US Army has done more than all other international human rights organization. Raggz 05:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Iraq doesn't simply have "US military bases" in it, it has a military force there actively suppressing civilian uprisings.

If not for the imperialism of nations, world war one would likely not have occured. This, of course, would mean Hitler would not have been supported to revive a defeated, economically devastated Germany. I've never found it appropriate to say things like: "If not for the US Army, you would be living with swastikas." This logic (the same I felt I used in my example), is ridiculously oversimplified, I believe, though I'm far from being any kind of expert there.

However, let's deal with the word "occupied". There's the wiktionary definition [[2]] which leads to occupy[[3]]. These are still pretty bare and don't seem to really give us anything definitive. If we use the dictionary.com definition [[4]] "to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion," we can clearly see that the US falls under this category since they took control, from the previous government, by military force and they're still there.

The post-invasion Iraq article would seem (I'm not sure about one part of the Legal status... section) to agree with your assertion that "Iraq is no longer occupied." However, reading through the discussion thread [[[Talk:Post-invasion_Iraq%2C_2003%E2%80%93present]] I found, under the "Occupation issues" section, an interesting post claiming to define a key point in international law. This would seem to vindicate my position on the matter.

What seems clear, here, is that the question of whether it's an occupation or not is not a simple matter to settle in this intellectual manner. I think it's also plausible Iraq is in a transitional phase. Read Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–present. The legal definition is here.

Your second paragraph, to me, reads like a Washington propaganda note and unless you link some sources for your information, I won't try to refute your claims. Khono 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Iraq is in a transition. Have no doubt that if the democratically elected government of Iraq were to request a US withdrawal, it would occur fairly quickly. Iraq was ocupied. It hasn't been for two years.. What is ocupied is not complex, initially the US took over and ran the country, just as with Germany, Japan, Grenada, and many others. It was occupied. Then as always, a democracy was installed by the US.

Read the Barbary pirates. The Jihhadis attacked as far north as iceland, carried of an entire village from Ireland. Only the Americans took action, (well almost only ...)

If not for the American Army, Europe would be enjoying the Third Reich now. Do you disagree? We cannot know, but insurgents under the Third Reich would have met the same fate they met in Iraq or the USSR? The difference between what Europe is and what it tried to make itself into is due to the American Army, true? The American Army created modern Europe, which then was at liberty to recreate itself as it wished? Raggz 06:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that rather dismisses the much larger sacrifices made by the Soviet Army. It might seem somewhat fairer to say, if not for the Soviet Army, and its willingness to make incredible sacrifices, Europe would be enjoying the Third Reich. But of course, many contributed to lesser degrees.

You have not dealt with the points I made. Does international humanitarian law not matter? Is the US exempt from these laws? In a democracy, the people are supposed to rule, yes? What is public opinion in Iraq right now? From what I read in Noam Chomsky's Failed States, the majority of Iraqis see the American army as an invading force. According to a recent survey [[5]], the majority of Iraqis want the US led forces out within a year, as opposed to when the security situation improves. I could not find a question specifically asking if they consider the US led forces to be occupiers, however.

The article you linked to [[6]] did not include sources (as far as I could tell, if you can find some please point them out). It has been said that the first casualty in war is the truth. An affirmation from the state in question that it is not 'doing bad things' is not particularly valuable.

Though I would like to go on and further address points you've brought up as well as bring up many of my own opinions, I don't think we should do this here. If you'd like to continue the wider debate, I suggest we do it in user talk [[[User_talk:Khono]]. Khono 14:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

US casualties

We absolutely did not suffer 3574 casualties during the invasion period as demarcated by the dates posted, March 18, 2003 – May 1, 2003. Not even close. This type of misinformation is responsible for most of the hysteria and unreason regarding this conflict.Gonzeaux 13:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[Scroll up to previous section comment on #Coalition deaths.]

I think that you have misread the sentence (in the section called 2003 invasion of Iraq#Casualties or somewhere else in the article? See the cross-linked "main" article Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003). [Please clarify: Does your "we" and that figure of "3574" [May 14 post] refer to United States or U.S.-led Coalition forces?] The total figure of over 3000 U.S. casualties (as I read that sentence) would seem to refer to the over 3000 U.S. and U.S.-led Coalition casualties for the entire period of the war (through the point of the last edit in May 2007), not just the "invasion period"; though it's confusing since this article is supposed to be focusing on the period from the beg. of the invasion to May 2003 (but discusses the entire war period there). Please see the top-cross-linked article: Post-invasion Iraq,_2003–present#Casualties.

There are many reliable sites listing or estimating war casualties given as sources throughout these Iraq-war related articles in Wikipedia (which are generally cross-linked) and which provide their own links to resources. See the source cited, e.g., Iraq Body Count project (which links also to CENTCOM's home page, w/ its cumulative casualty press releases (not totals)--included in list at [7]--and to Coalition Casualty Count, and Global Security.org's U.S. Iraq Casualties; the CNN linked page is updated as well: CNN War in Iraq: US and Coalition War Casualties. [Some thus link to CENTCOM's press release raw government site figures via their "links" pages [8].] [See in the latter site, globalsecurity.org, e.g., the years in the column after months as one runs one's eye down the page: total: 3,467 as of its last date (which has risen since then).]

One simply needs to correct one's reading of the passage in this Wikipedia article section (or to make the text clearer) rather than immediately to assume bad faith here: WP:AGF. (At least, that's how it seems to me so far; haven't read this entire article carefully; just looked at the part that seemed to occasion the above comment.) --NYScholar 02:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

From the CNN page on the war casualties (US and Coalition), [giving a date of May 21, 2007] accessed on May 22, 2007 (not uptodate, however]:

There have been 3,697 coalition deaths -- 3,422 Americans, two Australians, 148 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, seven Danes, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Fijian, one Hungarian, 32 Italians, one Kazakh, three Latvian, 19 Poles, two Romanians, five Salvadoran, four Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians -- in the war in Iraq as of May 21, 2007, according to a CNN count. (Graphical breakdown of casualties). The list below is the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen, sailors and Coast Guardsmen whose deaths have been reported by their country's governments. The list also includes seven employees of the U.S. Defense Department. At least 25,378 U.S. troops have been wounded in action, according to the Pentagon. View casualties in the war in Afghanistan and examine U.S. war casualties dating back to the Revolutionary War.

(Nothing to sneeze at, in my view, of the human destruction of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness resulting from the war. [And, of course, those figures don't include Iraqi and other civilians killed and injured, or their loved ones and significant others whose lives have been affected by their losses.]) --NYScholar 03:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Given various changes by other editors to the info. box in this article, it appears now that the figure that the user posting this section was objecting to is the listing of the total Iraq War "Casualties" item in the info box, which is misleading because it doesn't indicate that the period of these casualties is 2003 to 2007, not the invasion period given at the top of the box. The user has a point. I think that inclusive dates need to be indicated for the total casualties in the period of those inclusive dates in the box if the period differs from the heading in the box. Whatever the casualties number is for the period at top of box (the 2003 invasion) needs to be listed and if one wants to make reference to the total casualties figures for the period from March 2003 to May 2007, then one can do so in the citation (clearly). That should correct the problem that the user is perceiving. --NYScholar 06:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've updated the "accessdate" in the citation template; that highlights the discrepancy, as the corresponding figures in the parallel column for the Iraqi side is years earlier (October 20, 2003). [Setting those figures side by side is like comparing apples and oranges; it's a misleading and unfair comparison.] The discrepancies need clarification and the likely misleading nature of the info box figures still needs further correction, in my view. There are ways to be accurate in that infobox and still to link to current total casualty figures in the other articles, such as Iraq War. --NYScholar 06:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've also documented the information in the infobox; such full citations are necesssary and, after provision, they should not be deleted. See Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles and Wikipedia:Citing sources. --NYScholar 21:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've made some corrections to the figures in the infobox, as sourced and clarified in the note citations, originally provided by earlier users. --NYScholar 00:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Legality section

I have removed a recent addition to the legality section which was unsourced and not incorporated into the existing text. The only citation that was listed was to a letter about possible war crimes in Iraq. It seemed not to be directly relevant, but no URL or other information was given for the letter so it was hard to determine. Regardless, if the person who posted it wants to include the information in the existing section, i would ask them to do so with verifiable sources. Thanks.--Mackabean 06:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I reviewed the edit again and saw that some of it was relevant (though inaccurate). I integrated the relevant piece into the existing legality section. --Mackabean 18:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Connection with 1941 coup

the axis led coup obviously weakened the stability of the region which led to the Ba'athists taking power so i believe that the link to the Coup is essential to theis article in order for the reader to have a broad understanding of what events helped bring the invasion about. Also that the leader of this invasion and a leader in the 1941 coup have EXTREAMLY similar qoutes about their rationale for commiting to the region should also be shown (71.50.220.43 16:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)) P.S. remember that when saddam was found he had a picture of Hitler his "hero" with him, maybe in another 60 years some deposed leader will be found with a picture of Bush (71.50.220.43 16:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC))

Who's asserting the link? If there's independent, scholarly research making the link, then we can consider adding their research. If we're showing the quotes and making the conclusion from that that there's a link, then that's original research, which is to be avoided. —C.Fred (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.mideastweb.org/iraqtimeline.htm (71.50.220.43 16:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC))

I see a timeline of events without a cause-effect conclusion being made. Also, the source needs reconciled against the reliable sources guidelines. —C.Fred (talk) 16:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

==== multinational forces

I like the "multinational task force" euphemism; it is very polite and diplomatic. But, I think a "US-led" prefix would be a reasonable bow to reality, so I "made bold" and stuck a couple in. Also, the invasion is not really ongoing -- it has pretty much continuously evolved into the current occupation. I don't think it is really accurate to call this still the invasion. The US-led forces control the strong points, and now it is hardly differentiable from any other occupation, yes?

revisions reverted with no discussion or comment?

I tried the recommended "be bold" approach, and did my revisions, and put explanations, and posted explanations here too. Someone reverted them with apparently no discussion or comments. I guess the message is that this article is protected by certain propagandists or administrators and regular users are not allowed? That is ok, I'm surely giving up immediately, but, I thought that wikipedia at least gave lip service to cooperation on major topics... :(

Exact number of dead

Over half a million Iraqi's dead, in May 2007 after "us surge" monthly death not decreasing Some group says 650 000, it seems to be true!

I need author name for "2003 invasion of iraq"

Dear Wikipedia, I am hassan(user:busta5000/email:<redacted>) & I used your page as a resource for my essay & I have many references about my topic "The Invasion of Iraq",but your the best resource & I have paraphrased your research but the teacher at my AbuDhabi University said that he needs the authors name to right it as a quotation at the end. so pleasre can you give me the author name? I trealy need it.

your user, hassan(busta5000)

On the left side of each page in a section titled "toolbox" is a link called "Cite this page". That should give you all the information you need. For most articles on Wikipedia there is no single author; it's a collaborative effort.-gadfium 20:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

POV: Where WMD's are noted, the allegations should also be noted as false.

It looks like we have a 'the victor writes history' scenario pending with this article, the opening paragraph should immediately outline the issues as well as identify the fact that the grounds for the invasion were falsified. References to allegations of WMD's, including down the right hand panel, should also address the fact they were false allegations. There's plenty of references to support the fact, not to mention the governments combined awareness of the erroneous nature of these reports they based the invasion on. But suddenly if read by a ten year old who wasn't watching the news during that time from a prima facie evaluation they would be led to believe there WERE WMD's and they did actively support Al Qaeda and had involvement in the WTC attacks, which is all speculative fiction. 211.30.73.30 22:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

UK Cost of War

Does anyone out there know what the invasion part of the war cost Britain? I remember in Gulf war 1 the "coalition" paid for the majority of the war, mainly Japan and Arab states. Along with the US, Britain even got some of it's war costs covered by them too. Seeing as though there weren't any rich "coalition of the willing members", I'd like to know if Britain basically borrowed money for this war as the US did. Anon 003 22:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well i know that the iraq war cost the Us about $450 billion. I dont think the money was borrowed. Bush includes it in his budget, so its not borrowed.

263,000 vs 375,000

are you sure about that? sounds weird. isn't the iraqi army overestimated by some chance? which year are these numbers about, with reinforcements and coalition troops withdrawal it's probably hard to estimate. thanks. Paris By Night 02:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering about the relations with Iraq duirng the Iran-Iraq Gulf War.

Did the united states or did not the united states supply "weapons of mass destruction" to Iraq during this war. I understand that during this conflict the United States did not have good relations with Iran.

Now this question leads to the statement made by Colin Powell saying that "We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction" does this make his statement true.

This now leads the the statement made by Colin Powell as well stating "Given Saddam Hussein's history of aggression...given what we know of his terrorist associations and given his determination to exact revenge on those who oppose him, should we take the risk that he will not some day use these weapons at a time and the place and in the manner of his choosing at a time when the world is in a much weaker position to respond?". Does this mean that the United States is refusing to deny that they supported Saddam Hussein to oppose Iran?