Talk:Brahma Kumaris

The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. The principals in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris are expected to convert the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. After a suitable grace period, the state of the article may be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee. Posted by Srikeit for the Arbitration committee. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris.

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Spirit Possession

I think spirit possession is pushing it too far and reflects a Western bias. It's clear the group does medium channeling and the sort they do seems consistent with many Eastern traditions.

Where the evidence is contradictory from reliable citations, I suggest removing whatever is being claimed and refer people to the contradictory pieces of evidence. For example, "BKWSU advocates celibacy, vegetarianism, and XXX..." should be more than enough said about sex. The quotations on sex are POV (selectively chosen to make spiritual celibacy look strange). Many spiritual traditions advocate celibacy (Roman Catholic priests come to mind first). Renee --Renee 16:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

First you write that "spirit possession" that should be removed and then you write that we should follow what reliable sources have stated. This strikes me as contradictory because the term is mentioned in reliable sources. Andries 20:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

From my read of the source, which does appear reliable, the author is doing a type of post-modern analysis of gender roles and power (and as a former university professor, I've reviewed many papers like this). The basic gist of her article is that even though women appear to be in positions of power, they possess their power only through the male voice speaking through them (showing that the power is still male). If you read what she says, she's not speaking of the common meaning of "spirit possession" (in which the common, connotative meaning usually is "demonic possession"), but of mediumistic channeling. So as I said above, it appears the group definitely says they are involved in mediumistic channeling, but the words "spirit possession" are not neutral and have a lot of connotative meaning for English speakers.

Also, when I edited it, it didn't seem right to put it in the lead paragraph, because it's not THE central core belief or practice. I think it should be in the article, but not in the lead, and it certainly should be written in a neutral manner.

Best wishes, Renee --Renee 20:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. remember our goal is to have an article that everyone can live with, though it may not be exactly how each person wants it. For example, I doubt if the pro-BKWSU group wants "mediumistic channeling" in the article because frankly, most Westerners would run for the hills at that statement. But, spirit possession really seems to be an intentional "anti" provocation, so I hope that the phrase "medium channeling" is a reasonable compromise. Renee 20:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Also the reference used is in itself misleading. It implies there are more than one medium delivering the murli in the present tense. This is simply not the case and if necessary I can show other references that show otherwise. It also seems to give the impression that these mediums (in plural) are in some kind of competition for prominence on account their mediumistic capability to do this. This is also patent nonsense. It's a very clunky and strange citation to be using, as it was, out of context, for a first paragraph. Some degree of care and common sense is needed when using Western academic citations to explain Eastern religion because sometimes it's clear they profoundly just haven't got it. Regards Bksimonb 20:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider the question of mediumship to be open. Compromise is required not deletion. The centrality appears to be well argued. Faithinhumanity 19:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The misreprentation that this misinterpretation belongs in the lead violates the policy of not giving undue weight to a minor point or a single source. IPSOS (talk) 19:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

May I ask Renee what her knowledge of this organisation is to make such pronounced statements about what is and is not central? I found the supporting evidence deleted from this page convincing. Mediumistic channelling is the name of the wikipedia topic. There is no such as "medium channeling".

There was an outstanding question regarding the age of the founder also removed. Faithinhumanity 13:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity, I am a neutral, outside editor brought in by the Rfc. Accusations cannot be included because they are not verifiable. --Renee 20:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Faithinhumanity, I notice that "channeling" is highlighted in the opening paragraph and it leads to a link called "Channeling (mediumistic)," so this sentence conveys what you want it to. Is the age of the founder contested? Maybe a line could be put in saying, "The exact year of birth of the founder is unclear, with estimates ranging from XXXX to XXXX." Renee --Renee 14:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The age is indeed contested but not by any reliable source as yet. See this thread. Regards Bksimonb 15:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just read the thread and it seems all opinions might be accommodated with a line like,

"Most published sources give the year of Lekhraj Kripalani's birth as 1876 (insert references 1-5 below), though one early book (insert ref 6 below) suggested it was 1884, and still others suggest birth years of 1887 or 1888 (insert appropriate ref)."

If the latter numbers are just speculation appearing on talk boards in the internet, then they can't be included here and the last clause should be cut. Again, we can only post verifiable evidence.

References for statement above:

1. Hunt, Stephen J. (2003). Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 120. ISBN 0754634108.

2. Clarke, Peter Bernard (2006). New Religions in Global Perspective: A Study of Religious Change in the Modern World. Routledge, 248. ISBN 0415257476.

3. Macgregor, Ronald Stuart (1992). Devotional Literature in South Asia: Current Research, 1985-8. Cambridge University Press, 302. ISBN 0521413117.

4. Woodhead, Linda (2002). Religions in the Modern World: Traditions and Transformations. Routledge, 31. ISBN 0415217830.

5. Doktór, Tadeusz (1999). Nowe ruchy religijne i parareligijne w Polsce: mały słownik. Verbinum, 37.

6. Radhe, Om (1938). Is this justice? Being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908. The Phermacy Printing Press, Karachi, 154.

--Renee 20:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. The Radhe reference only implies the date rather than stating it. Some maths is required to reach 1885 and so, strictly speaking, it is original research. I guess at some point we need to address the article on Lekhraj Kripalani since it now differs from this article. Regards Bksimonb 12:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee, could you clarify what accusations I made? Faithinhumanity 16:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm...not quite sure what you're referring to? I recall the article being full of accusations (even using the word, i.e., X was accused of Y) and my making the point that that type of text or write-up is entirely inappropriate for Wiki (or any scholarly or journalistic article) -- I can accuse George Bush of being an alien invader but it doesn't make it so. I don't think it was in relation to you? Renee --Renee 21:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee

I would like to point out that celibacy within Brahma Kumaris cannot be compared to Catholic Priests. Celibacy within the Brahma Kumaris is all encompassing and if you negate that fact then you ignoring all the cited sources. This has been a practice of the IT Team, which is here and which has even been mentioned by their Medium/channel "Chariot" Gultzar in the murlis and whom Riveros11/Avyakt7 AKA Riveros (and other multiple IPS)has even quoted on his talk page.

• I also question the removable of "spirit" possession as that was what has been cited in many academic books? Are you being fair. As to "MouthPiece", please don't take to the histrionics of the IT Team to heart, as one of the main Abrahamic religions had a "MouthPiece". So, if they are trying to hide this, it is only because their medium has channeled a combination and even Bksimonb has acknowledged that others (many other BKs) also channeled in the early years but it was stopped. I have even come across pictures of BK yogis, sitting across from their medium while she channels. The BKs even produced a video which I still have that shows their founder being "Possessed" as recorded in many academic texts and which they don't want seen even though they created the master piece.

Finally, families facing celibacy (without joining) find it very difficult and I say to you, to please not try and hide the honest truth. To do so only serves deception and is not to informative to others seeking to learn about the practices of this group. A celibate life style is just that, and their group practices that without exceptions, unless you are a VIP which the average person is not. So, celibacy is a daily reality and thus its importance. If it were not, and if they didn't place such a high Priority you wouldn't see suicides of those who partake in sex, and who jump off 5 stories or who live daily with suicidal ideations (often for years). See, they are told this, this of course is still a secret as no academic has placed it as a priority. So, please be fair and leave that which has citations in. PEACETalkAbout 04:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Please avoid use phrases like, "Riveros (and other multiple IPS)". While you were away we just had a right telling off for making sockpuppetry accusations and am ashamed to say I was also partially guilty of also making such accusations and also didn't follow the correct procedures for reporting (however I turned later out to be correct on some of them). Anyway, Riveros, as far as I can tell, has never done anything more than edit logged out and he has never pretended he was someone else. Otherwise, please use the formal suspected sockpuppet procedures that exist if you think otherwise.

Also, what's "please don't take to the histrionics of the IT Team to heart" supposed to mean? Hmmm?

Please list the academic books that actually mention, "spirit possession" in those exact terms. And, even if they do, the point that it has a negative connotation in the west has to be taken into account. Those references have no requirement to be neutral whereas Wikipedia has a strict WP:NPOV policy we are expected to follow. Also some sense is required to choose references that are actually saying something useful and in context to the article. That particular part of the Puttick reference doesn't on both accounts. I'm not rubbishing everything in the Puttick chapter, some of it is correct and useful, but her analysis on "spirit possession", "mouthpieces" and "prominence" is factually incorrect and can be contradicted by other secondary references.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting in the last paragraph of your post. That celibacy=suicide? That is clearly an extreme POV that does not reflect reality. What reliable references prove a link between celibacy and suicide and does that belong in this article. I believe there is an article on Celibacy, maybe it should be there. Also note that Sigmund Freud was celibate later in life and put forward the principal of what he termed, "sublimation". This more accurately describes what those that practice celibacy, including BKs, are aiming to achieve and why they don't necessarily try and kill themselves from terminal frustration.

Regards Bksimonb 07:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb.

I had always stayed out of the frey and frankly find it distasteful. As to the suicide issue you are well aware of what I am referring to (5 stories and all) and I don't go into it as you are currently pressing the individual. So, yes, I will be truthful that no academic has come across that well hidden secret and so I never attempted to place it in the article. As to the IT TEAM, Bapdada even mentioned it in the murlis, would you say that was a faulty transmission in the murlis? I have always known and you even stated when you arrived that you were representing the organisation. As to Riveros11/Avyakt7, it was well documented and all his harassment too. I just wanted to stick to the information at hand and didn't want to get personal. It would seem that lodging complaints is a way to get rid of the editors as even I now stand accused of being Green108, because I was simply keeping a record of all the complaining and removal of edits. Plume, I am declared a centrewasi? Hemmmm.

So, rejoice in knowing your tactics have proven useful, so perhaps the ends justifies the means. Maybe I should just go off and work on my project. I even noted you tried to have tried to have the Reachout Trust article deleted and have lodged complaints as usual there[1].

All I want is the truth with good citable material, not a hit piece but not a glowing Advert. One shouldn't practice things and then try to hide them. The agony we go through to finally get the facts in is rather painful, have you not thought maybe Bapdada wants the truth out there? Oh, FYI do you remember Avyakt7 telling someone to go and set up a website as he did? See, you plant the seeds then complain? I honestly thought we had come a long way but I guess we have regressed. I do hope if I decide to stay that you, will be civil as I actually thought we had made some progress. PEACETalkAbout 08:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI yes I was in Shantivan at the time of the said transmission. However there was no one else who was there that you will find on Wikipedia. Just please address me by my username as I address you by yours. The "agony" is what one gets when one tries to pull an encyclopedic article beyond its scope of being a one-page general, balanced and neutral overview of a subject. Thanks and regards Bksimonb 12:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Whew! Sounds like there's been a lot of baggage on this page. Reading this is like listening to an old married couple bicker...⊂( ﾟ ヮﾟ)⊃...

Regarding the celibacy issue I understand that one of you thinks it's good and the other thinks it's bad and that's not really relevant here. I think it's prominently represented in the article now because it's in the lead, and then there's a simple explanation of the extent of the celibacy (i.e., even "in marriage"). Anything beyond this gives it a value judgment which is POV.

Regarding the spirit possession issue, I really think the mediumistic channeling more accurately covers what the group does and the words are more neutral and balanced. Also, the way that "spirit possession" was used in the article cited for the claim was in a gender/power analysis academic paper that had nothing to do with the colloquial understanding of spirit posseession, so I think it's a misrepresentation to use that site to justify the words. The mediumistic channeling is explained in depth here and those who are interested in more information can click on the anti-BKWSU groups and get their slant on what mediumistic channeling is. But, to put it here represents a POV.

Best, Renee --Renee 14:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup. OK. Right on all accounts there. Ahem. Bksimonb 17:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a section on the use of mediumship within the BKWSU.

Faithinhumanity 14:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

But there is a whole section on mediumship in the article already. Please clarify. Regards Bksimonb 15:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Edits?

Per the discussions above, I'd like to take a crack at streamlining this article where issues are contested (just give a neutral statement and retain the cites) as well as neutralize the language a bit. Feedback welcome. --Renee 14:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Help!! I edited the first two sections (as well as streamlined some of the later text) but lost most of the references. Everytime I tried to retain them they would either move everything to a footnote or highlight everything. So, I figured it was easier to write the text, and then have someone knowledgeable about how to do references go back in and add the references.

So, can someone please re-insert the references where they belong?

Also, if someone could please refer me to a reference tutorial, I'd appreciate it. This is just a start to the revamping of this article.

Thanks! --Renee 14:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it definitely reads with less of a sting now :-) I will see if I can re-insert the references now. Otherwise congratulations for a much needed cleanup of the language. And there's me thinking it would take another rfc to get that through...

I just managed to re-insert one reference OK. I'll try an put others back as required. I just copy and pasted from a previous version everything between and including the relevant <ref></ref> tags.

Best regards Bksimonb 15:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for working on re-inserting the references. Remember, we're not trying to make the article nice or pleasant (just like we're not trying to make it negative or hostile), but neutral and balanced. Thanks. --Renee 15:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

"neutral" and "balanced" is all I've ever hoped for. I was referring to the atmosphere on this talk page rather than the article.

What references need to be re-inserted other than the one I tried? I tried to tie-up the other refs to the text and from what I can tell the others are redundant now.

Regards Bksimonb 15:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I think some third-party references are needed after the last sentence in the first paragraph. Do you know of any academic or journal citations that might be appropriate? Also, if possible the Barrett reference should be re-inserted after the second paragraph (starting "Some members...") in the Early History section. Thanks. --Renee 16:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I've re-inserted the Barrett reference but it seems to be referring to something else. The Om Radhe reference cites the problems with the community but is a primary source. Is that the one you meant? If so then there are secondary sources that say the same thing. Will look into it tomorrow. Regards Bksimonb 21:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm...I was just re-inserting sources basically where they appeared in the earlier version, trusting that the sentence was sourced properly. If there's a better secondary source saying what the line says, by all means please use that. Thanks, Renee --Renee 21:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. The last sentence of the first paragraph is quite accurate but I haven't been able to find a reference that encapsulates all the four aspects (also known as four pillars) of BK life in a nutshell. Did you have any pointers as to where you sourced the info to narrow down the search?

I have added a sentence to the first paragraph to mention the "murlis" since these are quite a central part of the BKWSU. Regards Bksimonb 15:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bksimonb,

Most of the references listed are hard copies only, so I didn't have access to them. What I did was review the BKWSU website, extracted out what appeared to be the essentials, and then reviewed the anti-BKWSU sites to see if any of these sites disputed that these were key elements (and they didn't, they were often critical of some of these elements). The problem is we can't use any of these websites as sources because they're either biased (the anti sites) or primary (the BKWSU site). So, I was hoping some journal article or academic book also outlined these key issues. If not, then we should probably delete the line, but I would imagine that several of the books listed would list these key things, if they are really the key foci of the group.

I think adding the murlis line is a good move, and hopefully addresses faithinhumanity's concern that the mediumistic channeling appears in the lead.

Renee --Renee 23:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. I'm not aware of any secondary sources that really encapsulate the "four subjects". However a primary source should be OK just for stating what the "four subjects" are as this is, as far as I am aware, not a contested fact. In which case we could cite Ken O'Donnel, Raja Yoga New Beginnings, 1987, ISBN 0-9637396-4-6, page 170 (Actually the copy I have has no ISBN, the 1995 version does, will have to do more research to check the page number is the same on the latest edition).

Regards Bksimonb 17:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

However a primary source should be OK just for stating what the "four subjects" are as this is, as far as I am aware, not a contested fact. Please note that you are entering into a precedent setting editing mode. So, don't complain when other use primary sources if that is where it can be found. Some of the the citation could be then cross referenced in:Is this justice? Being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908, Brahma Kumaris Radhe, 1939,ASIN B00089UWHE and in Adi Dev: The First Man, Written by Jagdish Chander, Translation by Shanta Trivedi PhD, Edited by Robert Shubow 1981, ASIN B0006XWNQ0. The latter I do believe I requested during the Arb Committee and so, if you did these edits please state so for the record. PEACETalkAbout 04:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The precedent is the arbitration ruling which says,

====Appropriate use of sources====

10.1) Generally, material used in articles should come from reliable secondary sources, not from primary documents, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Types of source_material. Primary documents can be quoted in order to accurately describe uncontroversial items, but using them to illustrate controversial facts or conclusions is inappropriate.

So for describing the BK's beliefs, as they are now, not 1939, using primary sources is OK if no secondary source describes it clearly. However using primary sources to demonstrate or imply some perceived failing of the BKWSU, or draw some novel conclusion, is definitely not acceptable as per WP:NOR.

Regards Bksimonb 08:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm with TalkAbout on this one. Using primary sources sets a precedent I think you'll regret. Soon people will be pulling out topics and quotations at random to make their case for or against BK. This group has been around long enough and is large enough to find a secondary source. If your decision rule for any claim on the page is that it has to be verifiable through a reliable secondary source, then you'll save yourself loads of grief. Renee --Renee 14:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes using primary sources is challenging and risky for the reasons you state. However we are discovering that some basic concepts aren't really covered well by secondary sources, especially the basic beliefs, as evidenced by our discussion on the "God" paragraph. Also, other editors may well say, "I've read the arbcom ruling and it says it's OK. Who's making the rules here?". How do we deal with that scenario? I suggest if we do have a secondary-sources-only rule then we will have to rethink how the article is put together, for example, it may not be possible to convey the basic beliefs any more, except in gobbledygook. It may result in a drastically shorter article, but that might not be such a bad thing. Regards Bksimonb 16:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ever work for a major book house publisher? Their mantra, when in doubt, cut it out. I think the discussion on God is way too much detail for an article like this. If the facts are uncontested, you might get away with saying, "According to the BKWSU website, the four principles...." but any sort of detail leads to problems (in my experience, just trying to save you future grief). --Renee 19:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk Archive proposal

In the interests of making this a "nice" article to be involved with I am proposing we archive the talk with the exception of the above "Edits?" post. Although a lot of the threads are live they have become huge and are full of civility and other issues.

We can restart any important threads as required. Let me know if you have any views otherwise I will perform the operation tomorrow.

Regards Bksimonb 15:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for asking, I'd say go for it Simon. Best, Avyakt7 18:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I've made the archive in the absence of any objections. I copied the end part of the thread on mediumship but left the first part only available in the archive due to WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL issues with it. I moved some posts in this "Talk Archive Proposal" up to the "spirit possession" thread since that is what they were discussing. Best regards Bksimonb 15:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Meaningless statistic?

"According to a 2004 study, only 18% of BKWSU followers felt that the movement was effective in raising its voice against atrocities against women[33]."

If there is no objections I propose to delete this statement from the article tomorrow because it is not relevant. The BKWSU are not a campaigning lobbyist or activist organisation which probably explains the low result of the survey.

Regards Bksimonb 19:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this line seemed a little random to me but I figured it did no harm in the article. It's kind of a 'so what' line. --Renee 23:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Further proposed changes

Looking through the article there are a few things that stand out that I would like to change if there are no objections.

1) Under the activities section, the paragraph starting, "On the periphery, the terminology " does not really explain what the activities are. It is juxtaposing three references to make a critisism. There is nothing wrong with this valid critisism except that Walliss has written whole papers on it so it can be stated without the synthesis from three references. It is also duplicated in the Controversies and Critisim section starting with the sentence, "Dr. Walliss notes that while the BKWSU was, "originally a reclusive...". I suggest we delete the paragraph in the Activities section leaving the one in the Critisism section.

2) Expansion section. There is a sentence in it, "On 16th January 1969, the BKWSU...", which is a detail that is unreferenced and seems to have little to do with "expansion". I suggest re-writing this paragraph. I propose the following text as the end of the first paragraph of the Expansion section.

From 1964 to 1969 more sophisticated methods of outreach began involving exhibitions, seminars and conferences in different parts of India (Frank Whaling, Journal of Contemporary Religion Vol.10 No.1 1995, p10).

Also the figures attributed to the BKWSU website need updating, the website currently claims, "...825,000 students and over 8,500 centres in 100 countries and territories."

4) Use of Mediumship. The last sentence, "Academics note the prominence", uses the same problematic Puttick reference. I suggest this is attributed if it is to be kept since it is a different account to that put forward by other reliable sources.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 16:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose to change the tone on the 'celibacy issues.' Brahma Kumaris practises celibacy. All the different reasons in the article are not accurate as far as our belief is concerned. It is not only about liberating "women" as a paragraph mentions, because men are part of the movement as well and men practice celibacy likewise. Celibacy is mentioned in the opening paragraph, in the "life style" paragraph and there is a whole paragraph about "attitudes towards sex." One of the references is in Hindi I believe, (why not use english references?) the other one calls Brahma Kumaris a "sect" which is not consistent with the term already used to refer to it NRM. Best, Avyakt7 20:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bksimonb,

This is too much for me to digest at once! (especially on a Sunday!) Maybe we can focus on 1-2 things at a time?

1. yes, having these sentences in one section without redundancy sounds right.

2. I think "sophisticated" should be deleted (by who's estimate was it sophisticated, if this is allowed then so are other descriptors, better to be simple and neutral). e.g.,

From 1964 to 1969 outreach efforts expanded to include exhibitions, seminars and conferences in different parts of India (Frank Whaling, Journal of Contemporary Religion Vol.10 No.1 1995, p10).

3. To be honest, this seems like way too much detail for Wiki. Also, if I were a gambler I'd bet that the sections "View of Christianity" and "Attitudes toward sex" were put in by those against BKWSU to make their case that it's strange. When topics like this are pulled out of a whole practice it seems suspicious and has a great possibility of being out of context. I would recommend cutting these two sections.

4. I agree that the last sentence can be cut (it seems like another 'so what?' line). By the way, when you click on this reference there's nothing there? same for 18.

Dear Riveros11 or Avyakt7, yes, I think it's best to just simply say "Brahma Kumaris practises celibacy."

Renee --Renee 22:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee; could you clarify as far as the extent of that change? I feel the "attitudes towards sex" paragraph should be erased since Celibacy has been mentioned enough.I feel that the word "celibacy" already contains enough info about our "attitude towards sex." Warm regards and Thank you. Riveros11 22:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think the attitudes toward sex paragraph should be cut. Celibacy is highlighted in the intro paragraph and explained further (i.e., even in marriage) in the lifestyle section. Simple and clear and NPOV. Best, Renee --Renee 22:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Per the discussion here, I deleted the "View of Christianity" section. Very unclear and convoluted. If it's central to the group's beliefs and practice then please rewrite before re-posting. It really was a mess. --Renee 23:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the Whaling reference, the word "sophisticated" was used in the reference but you are right, it isn't NPOV, and so it should be excluded. Regards Bksimonb 06:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with the pruning of "very important" teachings, in the effort to make the IT Team happy. It is mention in the Opening paragraph but need to be explained in full as this is a primary teaching that you must follow. Next, why not delete that they don't eat food prepared by others. Renee would they (IT TEAM) eat food prepared by you? If they would then you are a BK, because they wouldn't eat mine. PEACE TalkAbout 04:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi TalkAbout. Point of order. Would you kindly stop referring to all and any BK editors as "The IT Team". There is only one member of the "IT team" here, me, as documented here [2], and I have a username you can call me by, Bksimonb, as it happens. Generalising BK editors in this way can foster a sense of some kind of conspiracy or collusion taking place, which is really not healthy for the community and may be seen as a tactic to discredit editors with different views.

The references we use in the article were not written with the same requirements for NPOV that Wikipedia has. Therefore, they may use shocking or obtuse words. There is no need for the article to follow suit, in fact, it is a non-negotiable requirement that the article is worded in a neutral and balanced way. The first paragraph also doesn't have to explain everything in full. There are separate sections later in the article for that. What you personally may find to be shocking about BK life is not a view that would necessary be shared by the wider community of editors and readers.

Thanks and regards Bksimonb 05:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb

Quote:Would you kindly stop referring to all and any BK editors as "The IT Team". There is only one member of the "IT team" here, me, as documented here [3]END QUOTE

Fine, since you are stating that as the gospel truth I will quote you on it and from here on I will recognise that only "you" Bksimonb are here on official capacity. So, we are in agreement that when the IT TEAM went before Bapdada that Bapdada was mistaken and should have said it was only you here on the wiki article? OK, just want to make sure I have this correct as I do not want any ill will. I have always been accepting of you as the Chief IT for the BKs world wide. I have never been outright disrespectful, but I have several concerns as to the on-going pruning of the article regardless of citations. PEACETalkAbout 08:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm hardly the "chief" of the IT team. In fact, I'm a member of several teams. If you like I can represent, to some extent, the London sound team, video dept, literature department, media dept, PR (but not in a promotional role) and even translation headset department. Take your pick :-) As I recall Bapdada didn't specifically mention Wikipedia, only "opposition". I took it to mean Wikipedia, others in the IT team took it to mean something to do with the projects they are involved in. If the hat fits, then wear it :-)

Also notice that the most substantial changes to the article are made by editors with no connection to the BKWSU either as BKs, Ex-BKs, friends and family of, PBKs or anything. In fact I had no prior contact with them. What is happening to this article is that it is finally, after so long, becoming an encyclopedic article. Regards Bksimonb 12:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout, well, even my kids have a hard time eating the food I prepare since I tend to burn things so no problem if the BKs don't want it as well.

• Both of you, can you please take the IT talk and personal stuff elsewhere? (maybe your talk pages?)

For the article to be encyclopedic we need summary statements of beliefs or practices, but not detail. This prevents edit wars because if you look at the history, people are arguing over minute detail because it's presented as either positive or negative. Since the goal of Wiki is to be balanced and neutral, simple and streamlined and fully referenced summary statements are the way to go when material is contested, because then people can go read the references or websites themselves and make up their own minds (we're not planting positive or negative seeds). Best, Renee --Renee 14:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"Both of you, can you please take the IT talk and personal stuff elsewhere?" - Sorry! I do appologise. Bksimonb 17:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

British or American spelling?

Hey guys, are you using British or American spelling here? I just made one paragraph consistent with American (it had "internationalisation" and "programme" with "centers") but then as it was saving another flashed before me in British spelling. Please advise. --Renee 23:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That is a good question. A couple of us (editors) come from the USA. The others from UK. They can tell the time, I tell time... tea or coffee? they don't mind... I don't care..Haven't a clue on this one...or perhaps "have no clue..." Best, Riveros11 01:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I live in London, but I am quite happy to standardise (oops!) standardize on US spelling :-) If you see me slip up on the article by all means correct what I type.

Regards Bksimonb 06:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

This was discussed at length before and there are more BKs within the UK than the US so it is logical to have the British English. Thank you very much.PEACETalkAbout 04:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I don't mind as long as we all agree. It's easier for me since UK is my native language if that's the way we go. Regards Bksimonb 04:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Someone will have to go back in and change everything to UK spelling since I had changed everything to American spelling. I have absolutely no preference -- let's just be consistent. Thanks, Renee --Renee 14:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The Atman foundation

I would like to bring this link to your attention:[4] It comes from Cesnur (Center for Studies on New Religions) Please note that Dr. Heide Fittkau-Garthe was found innocent of all charges. Moreover, the article clearly states:"A leader of the German branch of the Brahma Kumaris, she left the Indian movement (or was excluded from it) and eventually became one of the most prominent self-help motivational speakers in Germany, organizing her activities into the Atman Foundation." I wonder what is the reason of that paragraph then? what is the message that is trying to convey? Best Wishes, Riveros11 11:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that she was found innocent of all charges only emerged from a reliable source recently. All the news article before that had the news about the incident and Brahama Kumaris prominently in the same paragraph. I suspect this had propaganda value because of the simple word-association between the two that people may have made when reading it. The news articles at the time seemed to be quoting the same source. I reported the fact that this incident had been pushed into a number of different articles on Wikipedia at the time of the arbcom case.

Unfortunately with news incidents like this it is only the initial charges that get reported, not the outcome of the case. Especially if it embarrassing to the media outlets that they were led up the garden path by someone as in this case.

So the question remains, is this incident even notable, and, if so, is it notable enough for this article? I suggest not.

Regards Bksimonb 12:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's only notable if the charges were proven; otherwise it's just malicious gossip that has no place in an encyclopedia. --Renee 13:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Deleted "Atman foundation" paragraph per discussion. Best Wishes, Riveros11 14:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I object, as the charges were dropped only for fear of the the members and what happened to the money? Jet fuel for the spaceship.PEACETalkAbout 04:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR. --Renee 14:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? What source is this coming from? Regards Bksimonb 04:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Kripalani vs Dada Lekhraj & Brahma Baba

Just want to float this issue again. It does seem a bit strange that a founder of an NRM should be called by his pre-NRM surname name all the way through the article. As an example of why this may have been done, take a look at this edit made to the Patibha Patil article recently by an IP account. Here it seems obvious to me that Brahma Baba is being derobed of his status as a founder of an NRM and reduced to a mere Sindhi merchant. I suspect the intention of going against the WP:COMMONAME guideline is the same here and also in the Lekhraj Kripalani article. I get the impression the underlying message is something along the lines of "You ain't special! You ain't nothin'!". Comments? Bksimonb 12:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What is an NRM? I think we need to just be consistent throughout the article. It seems that it is important to know his given name, and then when/why the name change occurred, and then refer to him consistently throughout. I don't think we should attach a particular value or meaning to calling him one over the other. --Renee 13:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I just re-read the article and now know what an NRM is. Regarding the name issue, there are so many names given, that I think we should stick with Kripalani throughout and put Brahma Baba in parenthesis behind it (so all parties are accommodated). I understand the rationale of using the different names at different times, because when it goes through the history it has to refer to Kripalani in 1937 (for example) because his name hadn't changed yet (so you couldn't call him Brahma Baba here). I honestly don't think it reflects a value judgment to call him one or the other; it's just a matter of following a systematic protocol. --Renee 14:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem I have right now is that the article refers to him differently to any of the references. So I guess the question is why is Wikipedia doing it differently to everyone else? I seem to be whistling into the wind on this issue so perhaps, unless there is any support for it, I guess I'll park it for now. I'll have to think how I can articulate my concerns better.

Just some background, this is the article after Utcursch cleaned it up initially [5]. And this is how it was undone [6] (note the edit comment). Utcursch's initial response was "As for "Dada Lekhraj", it is not "cultic language" -- Lekhraj Kripalani is known as "Baba Brahma" among his followers, not "Dada Lekhraj". Kripalani was better known as "Dada Lekhraj", just like "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" was better known as "Mahatma Gandhi":" [7] an explanation that I strongly agree with.

Regards Bksimonb 14:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, I'm so confused now. I just went through the article up to the beliefs section and made it consistently refer to "Kripalani (Brahma Baba)..." throughout. Is this acceptable to you? (or did you prefer "Dad Lekhraj"? I think you have a good point regarding Gandhi's name. --Renee 14:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it's a step in the right direction :-) I don't want this small issue to detract from the fact that I really do appreciate your effort on this article. A concern with the name is that if anyone reads about the BKWSU or comes into contact with them or anything they are never going to hear the name "Kripalani" except on Wikipedia. So why add a layer of complexity for people to wade through? So at least referring to the the most common name also is an improvement. Usually, he is "Dada Lekhraj" before the establishment and "Brahama Baba" after. I suggest the best way to deal with the article is to call him "Dada Lekhraj Kripalani (later known as Brahma Baba)" when he is first introduced and then just Dada Lekhraj thereafter. That seems the best way to keep the name consistent and not confuse the reader with different names. What do you think? Regards Bksimonb 14:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've re-edited up to Tree of Humanity section and changed the name accordingly. There are currently two places where the courses are referenced (under beliefs and I think under activities). Shall we merge these together so they're not redundant? Please feel free to do so. Thanks, Renee --Renee 15:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What consensus did we reach reagrding the naming. I think we should follow normal historical characters reference not adopt the sect's name for their guru.

Faithinhumanity 19:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

Thanks for fixing the "fard"! --Renee 15:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem :-) I think they meant "food" rather than "fare". Bksimonb 15:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of Brahma Kumaris

Hi Folks, I'm reading and re-reading this article and just realized that no where does it define what "Brahma Kumaris" means. From what I've read it means "daughters of Brahma" and is based on the belief that women have an important spiritual leadership role to play in today's world, because of their feminine qualities such as patience, kindness and love. Is this statement accurate?

If yes, I think it should go in the lead paragraph, because it explains a basic essence of the group that's not currently reflected in the piece.

Thanks, Renee --Renee 19:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. Yes "Brahma Kumaris" literally means "daughters of Brahma". Male BKs are referred to as "Brahma Kumars", or "sons of Brahma". Can't comment on the exact reasons why, I'll have to do some asking around & reading. Regards Bksimonb 19:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is my take on the name issue. It will not be easy to explain the signifcance without going into a bit of expansion...The actual name is "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya" which loosely means something like: "university of godly knowledge of the daughters (and sons) of the father of the people, Brahma." Prajapita means the "Father of the People." it is the equivalent of the "Adam" in christianity. As such, the whole humanity is Brahma Kumaris/Kumar (daughters and sons of Brahma.)However, as one Murli explained "we," "Bks" have recognized God when others (brothers and sisters) have not. Thus, the term is inclusive to all humanity. In the Hindu tradition there are 3 aspects which occur eternally in the universe; there is creation, sustenance and destruction, which in turn will originate a new cycle of creation, sustenance and destruction.. ad infinitum. Brahma is the name of that first part/act of the "trimurti"(3 aspects) namely,"creation" or establishment.

In other words, God "creates" the new world, through Brahma. Note that "Kumaris" rather then "Kumar" is being used for the utmost respect of the role of a woman at this point in time. (before women had a second class role throughout history and thus the "role reversal" that some religious experts note, but now God "Himself" is uplifting women at their due time ) There is a difference between "brahma" and "prajapita brahma" and the understanding of God creating/acting through others....but that is beyond the scope of this simplistic explanation...That is why, the name has been simplified to Brahma Kumaris. Warm regards, Riveros11 22:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Riveros11. So far it seems the two references that might cover this are "Peace and Purity" by Liz Hodgekinson and "Is this Justice" by Om Radhe. Obviously the former reference is preferred as Om Radhe is a primary source. I can't seem to find a copy of Peace and Purity right now. Do you have it? Otherwise I'll just buy another copy. Regards Bksimonb 07:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello bksimonb, I am traveling, so I will not be able to get a copy from the center which I normally attend. Will be out of the cyberworld for a couple of days as well...Thank you for pointing out the references. Best Wishes, Riveros11 14:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Chapter on God

This chapter is a mess. There's some funky synthesis going on with at least three different references to make a completely misleading paragraph.

• "Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba)did not claim himself to be a guru or avatar". Correct - but he did claim to be Brahma.
• "but the members of the Om Mandali believed he was the incarnation of Brahma." - and this is from a different reference. Synthesis? It also implies a rift between what Dada Lekhraj thought and what other BKs thought, otherwise why use the word "but"?
• "Some of his followers believed that a spiritual being (Shiva) entered his body and spoke through him[8][27] to teach humanity verbally." So there was a rift between the BKs too? Some thought one thing some thought another? Why juxtapose these statements in this way? It is also mixing phases in history. This paragraph is supposed to be in the present tense.

I suggest the following paragraph to replace it with.

BK ideas about God are a marked departure from Hindu concepts. God is an eternal and conscient being of light, the ‘All-Highest Soul’, ever-pure and good. Although having all knowledge and in that sense being omniscient, he is not omnipresent. Not only is God eternal—an eternal power or energy—but matter and human souls are also eternal; neither are they created by God nor do they emerge from God.

This is referenced to Reender Kranenborg. It is also the same text as the Citizendium article but since I uploaded it I hereby dual-license it for use here too if it is useful.

Regards Bksimonb 19:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...this sounds pretty esoteric to me and gobbly-gookish to me (sorry! must be my simple brain!).

Is there a simpler way of putting it?

Also, I think we should leave the descriptors out, like "marked" departure and just simply say "departure" because otherwise it sounds like POV. (e.g., I just read the CESNUR article and I think the author would agree that BK departs from Hindu but "marked departure" might be a stretch.)

So, the only line that reads clearly to me in the above paragraph is the first (after deleting the word "marked").

Thanks, Renee --Renee 19:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It was an attempt to paraphrase Kranenborg which doesn't give us much to work with. Do you think we should maybe use a more primary source in this instance? If so we could possibly use Ken O'Donnel, New Beginings however it would take me a day or so to distill the whole chapter into one paragraph. In the meantime I just visited the "Plain English Campaign" and suitably inspired, will now attempt to explain the BK concept of God free-from in plain English.

God is believed to be a the form of a point of light residing in an infinite expanse of golden-red light referred to as the "Brahm Element" or "Nirvana". God, referred to BK's as being "Shiva", is neither omnipresent nor the Brahm Element itself. Human souls are also points of light living in the Brahm element. The difference is they visit earth and take human forms and reincarnate whereas God stays at home. All souls are initially pure, that is, only having a nature of virtues such as love, bliss, wisdom, peace etc. however God has these to an infinite degree and never loses these qualities. God's role is then to instruct the souls who have by now forgotten their original form, and are completely depleted and caught up in worldly matters, how to become pure again in order to return home. This is done through the medium of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and more recently Dadi Gulzar.

I can think of other stuff to include but it's already a long paragraph. Now I just need to reference it to something.

Regards Bksimonb 07:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've condensed the Kranenborg chapter into a brief paragraph in plain English. It doesn't encompass all of the BK concept of God but it encompasses all the non-esoteric points that I could pick out from the Kranenborg article. Regards Bksimonb 14:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

Faithinhumanity I have reverted your latest edits because they are adding serious undue weight to the first paragraph and are clearly not NPOV. There are three active editors who are in agreement over what the first paragraph should be and, just as importantly, should not be. If you feel strongly enough otherwise then please raise an Rfc to get more input but please do not just overrule the consensus that was reached here and the consensus that WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV represent. Also the Puttick reference was found to be not entirely accurate where cited nor used in context. You're cooperation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 18:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Faith

in case you have not notice , they have put in a sockpuppet complaint about you and me

two of those making up the consensus are both BK members and part of the Bkwsu Internet PR team , and the other one does not know anyting about the Bkwsu..............so i dont think it really counts

this is what they will do , they will grind you down with all sort of accusations which are really just excuses their pov or Pr......trying to block you if they can , it has been going on for a year and has happened beforeUser:Green108

Posted logged out while blocked. Reported. Block extended. Bksimonb 12:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

People associated with

Given that there is some controversy with the movement, and given that this page has been a battleground for over a year, I have removed all the people who did not have citations.

I also propose that the whole section goes, except for those people who are very notable. I an unclear what is encyclopediac about knowing the name of the person who is "responsible for BKWSU activities in Spain?" What is the importance of reporting that "Brother Nirvair is a trustee?"

In most wiki articles the people associated with is a section for famous people who are associated with the organization.

If someone wants to start a seperate article about the history of the BKWSU or something, that would make sense, but if they are not notable enough to make it into the article, why do we need a list of them? Sethie 22:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great. Informative, Straightforward & Streamlined. Renee --Renee 23:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never really understood what the list was for. It's not something I've seen in other similar articles. Bksimonb 06:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The BKWSU Plain English campaign

Love the plain english campaign site! (though I noticed I spelled "gobbledygook" wrong in my message above) For what it's worth, I think everybody can save themselves grief, edit wards, and reversions by putting in very simple, summary statements. When we start to go into detail then people will quibble with the interpretation (i.e., no, that's not how they see God, he's not a pin-prick, it's a beam, he's not a he, he's a she, the color is yellow, not golden-red...) This is why I think simple summary statements are best. Anyone who wants to go into real detailed explanations can click on the websites at the end of the article.

Regarding God, I would ask, is a section on this necessary? If yes, then how about something like: "Brahma Kumaris believe there is an infinite expanse of golden-red light referred to as the Brahm Element. Within the Brahm Element God is an infinite point of light and human souls are also points of light, coming to earth to reincarnate and "remember" their original form." yikes, I have to say that this sounds pretty esoteric and again ask, is this level of detail really needed? I would suggest cutting this. In fact, when I read the article now even though it gives a sub-heading "God" it really talks about the guru. I'm going to replace that sub-head (Guru for God) and then you folks can decide if you want to add a section on God back in.

Regarding the definition of BK, how about something simple like this in the third sentence of the opening paragraph:

"Brahma Kumaris (i.e., "daughters of Brahma," named such to elevate the status of women in spirituality) focus on what they call four main principles of life..."

Did I get this right? If yes, then I think there needs to be a section called "The Role of Women in Brahma Kumaris" under the beliefs section, because this seems to be an important and central belief in the practice.

Simply yours, Renee --Renee 23:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. I would like to invite all the editors gathered here on this fine day to take a close look at the "Guru" paragraph, particularly how the references are used and the sentences constructed around them. I've previously suggested that there is some synthesis, undue weight and bias going on here.

When we describe the beliefs I suggest we focus on the present tense. It is known that the beliefs crystalised over some time, which in itself is interesting, but makes for one hullava muddle if we try and weave 1939 beliefs and 1960s onward beliefs both into the beliefs section. The current belief is that Brahma Baba was not a guru, but a role model and medium, and that Shiva is the "Satguru".

I fully support your initiative to use plain English, even if I'm not entirely successful at it myself! I wonder how un-esoteric we can make the chapter on God if it remains, given that it is, indeed, an esoteric subject ;-) Still, full marks for trying.

For the first paragraph I suggest a compromise of just saying, perhaps, "Brahma Kumaris (literally: "daughters of Brahma)" (not sure if I've correctly used punctuation here) and then maybe expanding on that later in the the article in the proposed "Role of Women in the Brahama Kumaris section. What do you think?

Regards Bksimonb 06:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Simon, Re the first paragraph. Sounds good.

If you think the beliefs section needs revamping please go ahead and do it. I don't know anything about the group so I think it's good to have a knowledgable person draft the beliefs section (actually, please just finish the rewrite). There seem to be plenty of outside editors (Sethie, IPSOS, myself) who will seize on a POV adjective like a dog on a piece of red meat (sorry, can't think of a comparable vegetarian saying; a locust on a dewy field of grain? doesn't have the same bite...).

I'd like to finish up my work on this article and move on to other things. Thanks, Renee --Renee 09:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms Section

Shall we tackle this section? According to Wiki policy we cannot use POV websites as sources. Also, sources should have some sort of fact-finding or vetting process for accuracy. Extraordinary claims need to be especially scrutinized to see if they're taken out of context or represent an extreme minority view. Based on these criteria, I suggest that any claims made by cult experts, cult books/websites, etc. be cut immediately. They're by definition biased. Any negative quotations need to be examined in context of the whole article. (For example, on the flip side, we wouldn't pull out glowing rosy praises of the group of an article either because it looks like PR; we shouldn't do anti-PR either.)

Sethie -- if you're around it'd be great if you could carefully examine any edits I make in this section as an outside editor too.

Thanks, Renee --Renee 09:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

A careful read of this section reveals that it is almost sole-source from a John Wallace. Thus, what is one critical party is made to look like several. Also, any "accusations" cannot be included, nor can his interpretation of a Newsweek article (the original newsweek article would be fine to include if someone wants to hunt it down).

I suggest creating a summary statement of his criticisms, not using direct quotes, because these were obviously taken to prove a point. Then, people can be referred to his article if they want his perspective.

Cult experts are not neutral resources, so this section needs to be struck.

In fairness, I wonder if someone can come up with a neutral criticisms section? It seems the celibacy issue and the focus on women are the two biggest controversies.

Thanks, Renee --Renee 19:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I also cut the tabloid newspaper article as it focused on Cherie Blair (Tony Blair's wife) and was a sensational effort to show she was into a cult. (The article reads like the U.S. National Enquirer, and apparently that's what this source is, i.e., a tabloid newspaper with little oversight or reliability beyond doing what one can to sell the next newspaper.)

The last citation wasn't a criticism or controversy, just a belief that appears earlier in the article.

--Renee 19:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. Thanks for cutting the tabloid article. I always thought it was gratuitous.

Agree that a summary of Wallis would be good although I'm a little bit puzzled about use of primary/secondary sources here. Normally we rely on the secondary sources and the conclusions they draw from the primary sources. How would we be able to use primary sources without using WP:OR to describe what it's relevance is in the article? There has recently been a lot of pressure recently to insert prehistoric documents and drag the whole article back to 1940. Do we want to encourage more of the same?

As I haven't yet ventured much past this article, could you please point me at some similar articles that you consider present critisism in a neutral, proportioned way? Thanks & regards Bksimonb 19:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it is perfectly okay to use biased sources on religious subjects, because no sources on religious subjects are without bias. Partisan sources are a different matter though. Noted controversies and well-sourced accusatiations can be included too. Andries 19:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Andries, According to Wiki:Verifiability we have to use sources that are verifiable, and biased sources are by definition not. Also, see WP:SPS, WP:questionable sources, WP:V, WP:REDFLAG, WP:R. I left in all of the academic citations but we have to be cautious if we want a balanced article and not report biased articles (like tabloids or cult-websites). These are available for those who want to seek out information and there's even a section at the end of this article that lists ex- and anti-BKWSU persons for those who want negative information. Best, Renee --Renee 20:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

All sources are biased one way or another. And this applies to science, politics, religion, culture, and any other subject. WP:NPOV advises us to be judicious in the use of sources, in particular about undue weight aspects, but that is all. In Wikipedia we describe the significant published viewpoints. Any minority viewpoints only if these are significant and do not raise redflags, and non-significant minority viewpoints we do not describe at all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jossi.

Simon -- I think the Transcendental Meditation [8] article does a nice job on it's controversies section (only secondary sources, balanced with opposing viewpoints). It's still a work in progress but I thought it was pretty well balanced. Best, Renee --Renee 20:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Renee. I've read through it and will read further since there are some issues there that strike me as strange such as the Christian views of TM which I would say are not unique to TM but common to Eastern religions in general.

≈ jossi ≈, it's good to see you back after so long! To Jossi and Andries, in the light of the issue you raised regarding the use of biased sources, is there any recommendation that either of you have regarding the criticism section. Are you both happy with the edits or is there something that either of you feel needs changing? Regards Bksimonb 04:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should move more slowly. You should allow others a voice. Renee you are doing more than your summary states. From the literature, you are making mistakes and needless removing supporting quotations. I need some time to go over your edits but I think they suffer from not having read the literature. Especially if you have no experience of the organisation.

What makes Walliss critical rather than analytical?Have you read his book?Faithinhumanity 14:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have asked Jossi and Andries for input. Please hold off reverting over different editors wholesale until we reach a consensus here. If necessary we can then re-introduce elements back in. Regards Bksimonb 14:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

New Edits

Faithinhumanity,

Can you please discuss edits on the talk page first without making them? Otherwise you're acting unilaterally when these other edits have been reached by consensus.

Does anyone else agree with Faithinhumanity's attempt to spread out Wallis' criticisms over several items? It seems to be WP:UNDUE [9]. There's no problem having these sentiments expressed in a summary paragraph but it seems biased to spread them out over many points when it's a single source (and technically, when "extraordinary claims" are made, one is supposed to have multiple citations).

Also, the words "accused" and "proselytizing" are not neutral. There's no place for accusations in an encyclopedia. Please do not insert these words to give a negative slant. (Just like please do not insert words that give a positive slant.

Remember our goal is to have something that everyone can live with that is balanced.

Once I here from other editors (if they agree) I will resummarize this section.

Renee --Renee 17:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. though you didn't ask (but should have reached consensus with other editors first), I think the line in the intro reads neutrally except for the word "claim." (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid) Can you live with, "...known as the 'Murli,' said to be from God."?

Hi Renee. As far as I can tell Faithinhumanity is simply reverting to what was there before. I left a note on his talk page. I prefer the new of the Criticism version on WP:UNDUE grounds but would like to hear from other editors also. Perhaps we can raise an rfc otherwise.

I can live with "...known as the 'Murli,' said to be from God." but the repeated insertion of POV statements into the first paragraph after being warned gives me a sense that a compromise isn't being sort from some quarters.

Regards Bksimonb 19:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Simon, In that case I'll put it back to what we had all agreed to on the talk page and I didn't realize it was a reversion back.

Dear Faithinhumanity, How about posting suggested changes here first so editors can discuss? Also, if I've made factual mistakes then please can you and other editors let me know? That would be appreciated.

THanks, Renee --Renee 20:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. I didn't realise the claim>"said to be" was a change from Faith's version. I thought it was an addition to what was there before. To me, "The study is based on channeled messages, known as the 'Murli' said to be from God.", sounds much more plain English than, "The organisation's philosophy is based on mediumistic messages, known as the 'Murli,' said to be from God". Both are true but "study" connects to one of the four subjects, and is quite accurate, we "study" the murli every day. Also "mediumistic messages" sounds kind of Victorian, with connotations of hands-around-the-table type seances, than "challelling" which to me sounds a more neutral description. Regards Bksimonb 20:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

hmmmmm...I actually perceive channeling to be more of hands-around-the-table thing based on US movies. I have no preference so it's up to you guys. You can even say, "The organisation's study..." but that does sound more wordy. --Renee 20:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, and I thought channeling was more like this. Each to their own :-) Bksimonb 09:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Very cool picture. I actually think of that as revelation. (as in revelation from God) Sounds so much nicer doesn't it? (Can you imagine in the Bible if they substituted "channeling" for "revelation"? Create quite a stir...) --Renee 12:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Writing as a Christian. I can assure you that the Bible is clear in is position toward mediums, mediumship and spirits. There is no comparison to make. Unlike claims made by followers of this organisation.

This organisation claims that God enters their mediums in India and speaks to its followers. Could I suggest that you became more informed in these topics before exercising your opinion. Some of us take these matters very seriously. Faithinhumanity 15:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity as you say that your are a Christian, I have to say it is very strange that your interest, as indicated by your contributions have never extended beyond this article. What you are saying about the "organization" is also quite loaded and inaccurate. I notice you mention "mediums" in the plural. Even the on-line references are better than what you are saying in terms of accuracy, weighting and context. Regards Bksimonb 08:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section for faithinhumanity

Dear Faithinhumanity,

I'm trying to be responsive to the changes you want in the criticism section, so I'm outlining them here.

• For this one, I made more neutral (took out word "accused"): "BKWSU's stance on celibacy was found to cause conflict within some families of followers."

• Regarding the added Wallis quotations, I already summarized his points in the lead opening paragraph so I'm not sure why you're adding quotations here (e.g., re-writing Murlis, prophetic failures). Putting them in 2 or 3 times is definitely undue weight. Also, if you look, some of the quotations you re-inserted were already footnoted.

-> I moved some of the quotations you put back in into the footnotes. So, they're still there (though I still think it's WP:UNDUE to pack the article with this one person's viewpoints) so please don't re-add them. Also, please note that there is full disclosure in the Wallis sentence where it says "please see reference for details."

Renee --Renee 20:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. I attributed the critisism to the sources including Kościańska's credentials. Regards Bksimonb 09:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee,

I asked you a question regarding Walliss's. You laballed him a critic. Have you read his book?

And what is your actual knowledge or experience of this organisation?

Let us not for one moment validate the process that this topic is current going through as a consensus process. I am happy you wait until you have finished your edits before I make my own. Please indicate when you are finished.

Faithinhumanity 19:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said previously when you asked, I am a neutral outside editor brought in by the Rfc. I have read enough excerpts of Wallis' book to see that his remarks are critical, but if you object to the word critical, let's just say, "Critic Dr. John Wallis wrote an article about the group where he...." That's what you call people who analyze groups and have non-neutral things to say about them (i.e., a film critic, a movie critic). It seems to me and the other editors who are actively discussing things before posting them that we are getting consensus (and you'll notice, I keep trying to incorporate your ideas though your reaction seems hostile on the talk pages).

If you make changes in the article without getting consensus they're just going to be reverted so it seems like a better way to go is to try and get agreement for your ideas on the talk page first. Then your changes will stick.

Renee --Renee 20:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I asked you two question. If you had actually read the book by Dr Walliss. You appear to be answering no. I asked you what your actual knowledge of this organisation was. You have not answered.

What is your actual knowledge of this organisation?

If this article is to be accurate, I have to question whether your opinion and judgement is informed or not. If it is not. I have to question your input where it strays beyond basic issues and into points of view.

Faithinhumanity 15:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair Use?

The fair use rationale of the posters seems a bit suspect. It claims, for example, "This is a low resolution reproduction..." when in fact it is 1200 × 1706 pixel which I would have thought is a very high resolution. The same seems to apply to the other posters. Also some of the rationale doesn't make much sense e.g., "Where there is disagreement between editors, or indeed published commentors, on the subject of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University it is correct to present illustrative materials that provide without any doubt contested dates or facts."

Should I challenge the fair use rationale? Regards Bksimonb 07:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically speaking. For the apparent size of the posters. 72 dpi is a very low resolution.

I would consider 300 dpi as being high resolution. I do not think this is the real reason for your wish to remove them.

Faithinhumanity 19:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

72 dpi is low resolution for a sheet of A4/Letter. Not for a poster! Also 72 dpi for A4/letter may still be too high for the purposes of fair use.

Can you also explain to me how you know it is 72dpi since you didn't upload them? Green108 did. Bksimonb 20:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I downloaded it and opened it up. It is 72 dpi. That is low resolution.

Faithinhumanity 15:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Faithinhumanity I just can't take what you are saying seriously. I get the impression that it is just playing at being obtuse in order to be disruptive. Of course the resolution is high, or will this take an rfc to decide? I have also analysed the JPEGS and there is no information in them regarding the dpi setting of the scanner, not that it's even relevant in this case. Here is the JPEG meta-data...

jhead *.jpg

File name  : Brahmakumaris-cycle.jpg

File size  : 1601860 bytes

File date  : 2007:08:14 19:42:27

Resolution  : 1828 x 2593

File name  : Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg

File size  : 310134 bytes

File date  : 2007:08:14 19:42:14

Resolution  : 1702 x 2379

Comment  : LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01?

File name  : Wdivinedecree.jpg

File size  : 515979 bytes

File date  : 2007:08:14 19:20:07

Resolution  : 1200 x 1706

File name  : Woriginaltree.jpg

File size  : 423657 bytes

File date  : 2007:08:14 19:42:37

Resolution  : 1200 x 1645

As you can see, no dpi information. The only information with regards to resolution is the x/y pixel counts which are clearly quite a lot for a so-called low resolution picture. Regards Bksimonb 06:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ummmmm

Why is the mediumship not mentioned in the "early history" section nor in the article about Lekhraj?

If the movement was started because of message recieved via these medium sessions/trance/channeling/revelation/whatever you want to call them... mentioning that in the early history (i.e. where did this movement come from) is pretty important.

I know there is a lot of debate here around how much/too much/not enough/what do we call it.... and if the organization came from that and we have citations saying so, then I think to not mention it in the early history clearly violates npov.

It would be like writing a Christianity article and not mentiong the "Son of God" idea till 3/4's in... it just doesn't make much sense!

Correct me if I am wrong and this entire movement is based around a set of ideas that began/were discovered/were revealed via revelation/channeling/vision/spirit possesion/oujie board :)/whatever. Let's just say it outright. Sethie 19:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Sethie, A while back Bksimonb had put a line in the lead that the study of BK was based on the Murlis, which states up front the basis of the practice. Faithinhumanity changed it slightly and said something that the Murlis were "claimed" to be from God, which is a wiki word to avoid (because it gives a negative tone). I changed the word "claimed" to "said to be from God," and then IPSOS deleted the whole line because I don't think he nor Bksimonb thought the tone was neutral. So, I propose putting back in this line that Bksimonb originally had, adding the clause "said to be from God" (so that Faithinhumanity's perspective is in there in a neutral way), and then hopefully that addresses your concern above. Here is the line (would be the last sentence in the lead paragraph:

"The study is based on channeled messages said to be from God, known as the 'Murli.'"

What does everyone think? (Then, there's a whole section on mediumistic/channeled messages in the article later.)

Best, Renee --Renee 20:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

My first response is, I don't think it needs to go into the lead. I think it could... and given all the debate over that, I say leave it out.

As for the claim/said to be, let me sit with that....Sethie 20:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sethie,

Very cogent point you raise of "Why is the mediumship not mentioned in the "early history" section nor in the article about Lekhraj?"

The reason is because there is an attempt to hide this, just as there was an attempt to hide mediumship/channeling and the recent spirit possession which is well document in the "early history". But since I have gone back to school I have not had the time to raise objections to the constant removal of well cited and relevant information. It is like taking out the crucifixion out of Christianity, on the mere whims of those that want to re-write history for PR value. Wikipedia is not an avert and I regret that the end product in a couple of weeks will be some NEW AGE RELIGION ADVERT on wikipedia. Same as their claim to Dadi Janki being declared "THE MOST STABLE MIND IN THE WORLD" by scientists in Texas: "Dadi Janki, now around 90, had many good things to tell. She recalls her 1978 experience at Texas University, USA, where after a thorough research on her for more than seven hours by top scientists, she was adjudged as the one with the most stable mind. At that time, Janki said, she did not know much of English language, yet she was able to give convincing answers to the flurry of questions asked by the Americans.

Citing an example, she said they asked her to pronounce 100 minus seven, which is 93, then further minus seven, 86 and so on. She could do this with ease and perfection. Then they asked her a host of other questions. Finally, they bestowed on her this rare honour.[10]. With such assertions out there and attempt to remove factual information here, well even I am beginning to think of the old saying: If you repeat some thing often enough, and long enough it will soon be accepted as the truth. Such is the case with Dadi Janki's assertions, to the point where she even believes it. PEACETalkAbout 20:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

When you repeat something enough in bold it's even better! WP:SOAPBOX. FYI you are completely misrepresenting Dadi Janki. I wonder if WP:BLP applies to talk pages too. The "most stable mind in the world" claim came from a newspaper that misquoted the scientists.Bksimonb 20:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, let me start over....Forget the why- let's remedy it.

Renee proposes re-introducing a sentence into the lead.

I propose putting a few sentences in the early history.

Any other thoughts, comments, suggestions? Sethie 20:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't care if it's in the lead or early history. Early history is fine too. Renee --Renee 21:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose moving the first 2-3 sentences of the mediumship section to the "early history." :) It is already worded for the section with "established" and "early days!"

"The BKWSU is believed by its members to have been established by Shiva Baba (God-Father Shiva, described as the Supreme Soul and conceived as the one God of all religions) through the medium of the group's founder Lekhraj Kripalani. From the beginning, the group has used a number of mediums and trance-messengers[54] to receive messages from disincarnate beings or deceased members[55]. According to founding members, followers in the early days, including children, would commonly go into trances, having visions of Krishna and Vaikunth (Golden Age Heaven) and engaging in ecstatic dances for as long as 7 days" Sethie 00:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sethie 00:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. Go for it. Although the "the group has used a number of mediums and trance-messengers[54] to receive messages from disincarnate beings or deceased members[55]," bit is not exactly mainstream practice. There are odd stories of this stuff happening at the begining and up to the 1960s. Definitely not what you will find at your local BK centre. However, I can live with it. It makes the BK sound more exiting! Regards Bksimonb 05:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, go for it. --Renee 13:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Just one question. I just looked at the diff and noticed what might be some OR. The article says, "From the beginning, the group has used a number of mediums and trance-messengers" but this is referenced to what appears to be an account of one particular instance in Hinduism Today where trance messages were relayed through "the medium" (singular, not plural) and that the final message was delivered directly through the body. How can the statement in the article be based on that reference without OR? There is no statement about the "begining" nor any statement that suggests this type of event happened more than once. Regards Bksimonb 18:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Sethie. I didn't mean to torpedo the inclusion of mediumship in the early history but I noticed that the references were being jazzed up to say more than they were saying. Not blaming you for that, it was just a copy and paste from what was in the Mediumship paragraph. I have nothing against saying that there were other mediums at the begining of BK history but we will need reliable references that actually say this. I know of one notable medium from that time and have heard other examples of direct body manifestations but these are stories I've heard from eye witnesses and have not, as far as I know, been documented by reliable sources. Regards Bksimonb 06:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel attached to there being a lot of the medium material in the intro, it just, to me seemed like a FREAKIN HUGE gaping hole to have none. Sethie 06:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that Dada Lekhraj was a medium at that time and that there were also trance messengers. Anyone else being a medium at that time is only known about from the stories that those around at the time tell from time to time. It hasn't, as far as I know, been documented by a reliable source. That's what we have to work with right now. Maybe one day someone will trawl through all the audio cassettes of these related experiences and make a book or essay from it. Bksimonb 08:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to say

I come to wikipedia as a more a cleaner-upper and a fixer, so my attention tends to maybe focus on what is negative and lacking.

I'd like to say that this page is 300% better then it was a year ago, both the article itself and the atmosphere here on the talk page. Sethie 19:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Sethie. It just shows that it is possible. I really appreciate the sanity and consensus that uninvolved editors have brought in. Best regards Bksimonb 05:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems I have about this Sethie is that because you do not know anything about the subject, some of your edits are entirely inaccurate.......for example , you say "... He began recieivng messages from what he ..."

this actually isn't true....the legend goes god shiva entered into him and them spoke through him , that is a very big difference

i think that if you have not actually study the Bkwsu you shouldnt really alter the article significantlyGreen108 01:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Raja Yoga section is now misleading

Though a citation is probably easier to read than a quote I notice that it now makes Raja Yoga sound like some spooky, ritualistic pointless exercise. Which it isn't. If the change doesn't make an improvement can we please revert back to the quotation until we can come up with something more descriptive.

• Before

"Members are encouraged to purify their minds by the practise of Raja Yoga. This can entail sitting tranquilly, in front of a screen which Dada Lehkraj's picture projected, then making a number of "affirmations," regarding the eternal nature of the soul (atma), the original purity of one's nature, and the nature of God (paramatmā Shiva). The Brahma Kumaris believe that practice of Raja Yoga enables spiritual progress as well as having pragmatic benefits, for example, business success. Brahma Kumaris frequently organize seminars on business management and on developing personal life skills"[34].

• After

The Brahma Kumaris teach a form of meditation teaches a form of meditation[1] called Raja Yoga, which according to Reender Kranenborg may not be the same as classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali[34]. The practise taught by BKWSU involves channelling and mediumship where women are the instruments of a male spirit which is the subject of their meditation.[35][22] through which members are encourage to purify their mind by sitting tranquilly, in front of a screen which Dada Lehkraj's picture.[36]

Ugh. Bksimonb 20:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say this is the exact opposite of what I am complaining about above in my ummm section.... putting the medium info in the WRONG place. :) Sethie 20:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The before statement is much better. More neutral and balanced. Go for it. (respondingn to Bksimonb, not Sethie who's raising a completely different issue from the previous post) Renee --Renee 21:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

No... I agree completely Sethie 21:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. Done. Bksimonb 05:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of quotations

I would like to note the removal of quotation during edits. I do not think this is entirely honest or ethical. The quotations given support the article's contents.

Faithinhumanity 15:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Please be more specific. What quotations? If your latest edit was anything to go by all you did was re-introduce stuff that was not in the references being used. Bksimonb 06:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Critical websites

Template:RFCreli I notice that there are no websites either critical or counter-critical listed on the Sathya Sai_Baba or Prem rawat articles. What's the latest policy/guidelines on this? Some of the links on this article link to very negative sites that feature articles critical of Wikipedia editors (such as me!) including personal information. I have listed concerns I have about these sites in an article analysis I did on a June version of the article. Comments are in red.

Would appreciate comments from wider community as to whether any of these anti-BK site links should remain in the article.

Regards Bksimonb 08:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Sai Baba and Prem Rawat are living persons, so the rules are more stringently applied. On the other hand, so are you. If you are being unfairly criticised on a particular site I think you are on strong ground to delete the link. Rumiton 13:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, living people! Hmmm. What articles do you think would be more suitable to compare with in that case? Do sites that consist of forums and anonymous self published POV articles [11] pass WP:EL even on non-defamatory grounds? Actually, it does seem to have WP:BLP issues against living people from within the BKWSU. Certainly the article about User:Riveros11 seems to give away quite a lot of personal information. For myself I would say perhaps this forum post is a tad attacking [12]. Regards Bksimonb 14:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Are the two sites you list above linked to the article? If yes, they should be deleted immediately -- they are nothing but opinion blogs with no place in a Wiki article. Renee --Renee 14:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes the brahmakumaris.info site I highlighted absolutely is in the article! What do you think regarding the other sites listed under "Critical" in the External Links section article? Here's the list from the article...

Critical:

• Brahmakumaris.info, run by ex-BKs, serving ex-BKs, PBKs and non-BKs, claiming to be neutral and impartial and recognized by three cult awareness organizations
• A guide to life after leaving the Brahma Kumaris
• Time and Eternity "Inner Dialogues" by Paul Brocklehurst 2003
• Overview of Brahma Kumaris, Reachout Trust report

Regards Bksimonb 15:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, I have no problem at all with the positive sites also getting the chop if they don't meet WP:EL. Regards Bksimonb 15:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bksimonb,

I checked with some other Indian-based meditation group websites and really the only things listed regarding external sites are the official website of the group and that's it. (See the job IPSOS did on the Sahaj Marg site -- he did a really nice job getting it to be a neutral stub with secondary sources.)

I've done the same here -- deleted any POV site (positive or negative) and left just the links to the organization itself.

best, Renee --Renee 15:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fine by me :-) Bksimonb 15:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking at "further reading" section (other publications), I'd like for editors to notice the following suggested reading materials:

1."Beam them up, Heidi - Remembering the Las Cañadas suicide sect scare. Interreligious Insight."

2.(1997) "Altered States of Consciousness (ASC) Induction and New Religious Movements". Sociology of Religion 58: 141-164.

3.Shaw, William (1994). Spying in Guruland: Inside Britain’s Cults. Fourth Estate, London.

1. deals with the paragraph which already was deleted in relationship with Heidi Fittakau-Garthe. She had her own group. She was found innocent. She had no relationship with BK at the time.
2. I am not quite sure why "induction in NRMs" is related with a Brahma Kumaris article.
3. clearly uses the term "sect." BK was defined as a NRM.

I would like to delete those titles if there is consensus. Thank you, Riveros11 01:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Sect is harmless. BK has been and is defined as many things , including cult.

1. You cut the Atma splinter group
2. ASC is a properly cited academic paper
3. Spying in Guruland is properly cited research

I am sorry Riveros11 , your conflict of interest is too strong.

As far as the critical websites go, if you look at other comparable groups such as the Scientology [13] topic, the FWBO [14], Swami Muktananda [15], they all have either critical or ex- members sites listed for the sake of balance.

At the article has been too twisted out of shape....it is becoming too much like PR for the organisation by the organisation . I am sorry , I have been watching this go on for a year or so. now the references were all brought together, it has to be put back into shape a bitGreen108 01:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)