User talk:Arthur Rubin

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TV Tome

Please see this diff. Matthew 14:14, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

(fake signature) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:14, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

famguardian link on America: From Freedom to Fascism

I apologize if my actions were spamming. I am relatively new to the community and am ignorant of many of the procedures. I will do my best to behave according to Wikipedia guidelines.

However I believe that I have a case to be made.

Can you please explain to me precisely how http://famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Govt/IRS/friv_tax_rebuts.pdf does not comply with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL. The pdf article lists reliable references within the article. It is no less reliable than the IRS article. The famguardian rebuttal is in fact a treatise on how the IRS article is NOT a valid reliable source. Therefore, more proof than a .gov domain is requested.

Furthermore, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS itself violates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability. You cannot verify that something is "generally reliable."

Nevertheless, on the page itself it states "This page is considered a guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception."

Therefore, your position is referring to a guideline, not a rule. So I submit that since the IRS article is allowed, a link to the rebuttal of said IRS article should also be allowed. If the rebuttal should not be allowed, then let's remove the IRS link.

Are you going to reply to me Arthur?

You have no case. The IRS site would be relevant as the "official response" to the claims made in the film, even if it were not considered generally reliable. (Note the conditional tense. It is considered generally reliable.) famguardian has no official status nor reputable claim of accuracy. It might be includable as a link or a reference if the film referred to it, but not only because it comments on the film or the claims in the film. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) 19:11, June 8, 2007 (UTC)

(fake signature) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:11, June 8, 2007 (UTC)

Fleshlight

What's up with you changing the Fleshlight page every hour? If people wanna contribute, let them contribute.

If you can't stand that, get the fuck out! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.240.229.206 (talk • contribs) 15:16, July 26, 2007 (UTC)

I've only reverted 3 edits in Fleshlight, two of which were clearly linkspam, and the other probably linkspam, in the past month. I don't know why you think it's "every hour". — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Busy lately?

I don't suppose you could cut me some slack there Art? Gregbard 22:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I just don't see those two specific formal languages as notable. Perhaps they deserve mention in formal language or formal proof. Or perhaps you could userfy them, rather than leave them as up for deletion? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)\

First of all, the notability criterion is destroying the intellectual integrity of the wikipedia. Second, PQ at least is notable for its inclusion in the popular Gödel Escher Bach. The need for FS (logic) was demonstrated at Talk:Theorem. I would like to A) use this and other articles as a means to straighten out many redlinked concepts (see there are a few in there), B) work from the bottom up to some degree. FS is a good start from that perspective.

Lastly, if FS and PQ are not notable, please just get familiar with them. Gregbard 23:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The need for the models was (loosely) indicated (but not demonstrated) at Talk:Theorem, but I think the "models" belong in the formal theory article, rather than anywhere near theorem. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thinking it over, your argument that that the misnamed FS and PQ are relevant to theorem was rejected. Perhaps they should be merged into formal language? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I never brought up PQ in the discussion about theorem. If you do not understand that the existence of the FS language (heretofore unknown to the authors of theorem), made a relevant point about the fundamental nature of what a theorem is; and, that the point was incorporated into the article, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for integration, but I wonder about just what your idea is that you are integrating. I.e., I don't think you guys "get" what FS means if you are still hemming and hawing about it being relevant to logic, etcetera. Gregbard 02:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

They are clearly not relevant to logic except in regard syntax and semantics of formal grammars. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm willing to be convinced, but I cannot see it. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 03:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

FS is an uninterpreted language and a goal of logic is to deal with the syntax of statements/formulae/etc without regard for the interpretations. Therefore it is relevant. It clearly is relevant in my view. I don't think they cluttered up either an elementary logic book, or a class in Symbolic Logic with a lot of non-notable and irrelevant material as they have done in my case. Furthermore, my use of FS in the theorem discussion (which prompted changes to the article) does in fact show that it is useful, and relevant. Be well, Gregbard 04:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Your statement about "a goal of logic" could only refer to philosophical logic as opposed to mathematical logic. I don't know much about philosophical logic, but I can assure you that nothing in the article relates to mathematical logicl. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 06:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Well the world of logic doesn't end with mathematical logic. Gregbard 06:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A little harsh

I'd say Parker is notable. He is the author of one of the best selling books on logic in the country.

Gregbard 07:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. It's not on amazon.com. It's not in the Library of Congress catalog. Where is it? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

try this Gregbard 07:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC) oh never mind.

Exactly. It's not logic, it's rhetoric. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to just go ahead and inform you that you are incorrect and leave it at that. Be well. Gregbard 07:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

From m-w.com, definition 1b: the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion. Seems to fit. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Ordinarily, my just telling you that you are incorrect would suffice. So what's up? I'm getting an asshole vibe at this point. Richard B. Parker, along with Brooke N. Moore is the author of one of (if not 'the') best selling logic book in the country. He published a response to Bradley's Paradox. He teaches Logic in the Philosophy department of CSUC and has for many years. Gregbard 12:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps. Two of the eight reviews (of one of the editions) at amazon.com state that it isn't a logic book. It does appear to be a best-seller, though. (And "Bradley's Paradox", if it were interesting, might have an article on Wikipedia. I can't find a reference which stays what it might actually be, but it appears to be a paradox of meta-logic which can best be eliminated by denying the existence of discrete, countable, concepts. It also appears to have been resolved by Frege around 1915.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If you think Bradley's paradox is important, you could probably write an article on it, using Parket's books and/or papers (if published) as a reference. (Let me know, and I'll look at it. I doubt I could assert it as unimportant unless I've guessed correctly what it is.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Attempt at consensus-building

In an attempt to keep the discussion on the Photo editing talk page in the direction of reaching an agreeable resolution, I have tried to find a slightly different approach. I would really appreciate your constructive criticism on the post that I just made, please see Talk:Photo_editing#Trying_to_establish_some_common_ground. Thanks. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR

I just added a fourth reversion by User:Frikkers on Boerboel. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

DreamGuy's talkpage

Hi, Arthur. Since you've told DreamGuy that people can't be banned from his page "by him alone",[1] I'm doing it; I'm writing to IPSOS to tell him he doesn't get to post on DG's page anymore, and strongly suggesting to Dicklyon also that he should desist. No matter how riled-up you are against DreamGuy, I'm sure you don't mean to condone outright trolling and provocation on his page. And what, if not trolling, is it to post those crap templates on a long-time contributor... ? [2] [3] [4]. With "Welcome to Wikipedia" and "Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia"... ? That's never a good faith warning. It's more like poking with a stick at an irascible editor in the hope of getting him to say something blockable. Bishonen | talk 00:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC).

And, actually, it's been long established that people can tell people to stop posting to their talk pages if they are doing nothing that has any possible value to the encyclopedia and those who violate it are causing harassment. I would consider Arthur Rubin's edits as well to fall well within that standard, as his very first communication with me was an over the top aggressive threat to block for the simple matter of not doing what he wanted to do on an article he was edit warring and eventually lost on. All of his communications since then, other than a half-hearted apology for some tiny fraction of his behavior has been nothing but more of the same. As he has made it clear that nothing he has to tell me on my talk page (including the bogus claim that I can't ban people from it) is any real attempt to improve the encyclopedia and is solely to continue his personal conflict, he is blocked from my page as well. Admins don't get any special exemptions from the rules against harassment, and in fact they out of anyone should not be doing it in the first place, so Arthur here doesn't get off free either. DreamGuy 05:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The only one who has committed abuse is DreamGuy, but he's already been told, so there's no point in telling him again. And I've never been blocked.... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record, DreamGuy removed one of his posts, and it was restored by 66.82.9.79, who seems to be following him around, harassing him and trolling, so I removed it again. Cheers. ElinorD (talk) 09:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Well. I did try to write you a reasonable message in a reasonable tone, Arthur. I'm sorry if I didn't succeed. I was hoping you'd see your way to responding to me more... specifically, somehow. You really don't think it abusive to repeatedly slap those dumb-ass newbie templates on DG's page? Bishonen | talk 10:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC).

Well, actually, DreamGuy acts like a newbie in regard ignoring clear WP:CONSENSUS when he claims to think it violates policy, guidelines (such as the WP:MoS) when he thinks it disagrees with his view, and generally ignoring the opinions of others. I tend to agree that {{uw-3RR}} needs some more work, but the other templates I've placed on his talk page describe, in as polite a way as reasonable, what he's actually doing, and asks him to stop doing it. I've reverted the reinsertion of warnings and polite requests from his talk page after he's deleted them, as he's certainly allowed to do it, under WP:USER, as unwise as it may be. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Prisonplanet

Looks like you're on their bad boy list now as well. See the main article on the front page of prisonplanet.com as well about Wikipedia.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 17:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I did anything relevant to that article(?). Oh, well. Concur that all links to prisonplanet.com need to be removed as an attack site.... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I had assumed that posting with a real name and real (although not primary) E-mail address might lend my comments some credibility. I guess not. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we will do better to remove them because they are not reliable sources for hardly anything. verifiability is a core policy. People disagree about exactly what are attack sites, and how they should be handled. I think there are other sites too: infowars.com, prisonplanet.tv, and jonesreport.com. Except in a few cases, links to these should be removed because they are not reliable sources. Not surprisingly, the material they support may be inaccurate as well. And of course there are special problems if living people are involved. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

How do we go about getting prisonplanet.com placed on our Wiki blacklist?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 02:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Links here: m:Talk:Spam blacklist and m:Spam blacklist/About. Tom Harrison ^Talk 11:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• Did a quick search just in main namespace, there are actually more infowars links than prisonplanet links. Only a couple of jonesreport hits. These guys are like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their attempts to fight "censorship" of their views will result in a complete blacklisting of their websites. They're not all that swift, are they? - Crockspot 20:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Why did you delete the birthday on May 12th, 1975 I put up?

Are you in charge of 5/12/75? Isn't wiki for everyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.101.176.70 (talk • contribs) 01:21, July 31, 2007 (UTC)

We only list birthdays of people who have Wikipedia articles. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

And you said 1973, there. Is it '73 or '75? Is there a source which specifies it? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?

You used the admin rollback on me therefor you called me a vandal.

How was my edit vandalism? I am not a vandal. I want a reason as to why you reverted me. And I'll say in advance that I have no agenda so don't say "because you're a no good POV Pusher." — Selmo ^(talk) 19:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It's blanking of sourced, relevant information. That's not precisely vandalism, but it's something that can be reverted on sight without further comment. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring

I'd prefer if you've talked with me rather than ignoring me and treating me like nothing. I already explained why I'm removed the sourced material b(because it isn't reliable) and you REFUSE to listen to me. — Selmo ^(talk) 15:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

j911Studies and 911Truth are clearly not reliable except, possibly in regard the specific organizations. To the extent that this article is not about those specific organizations, they are unusable. But I'm willing to let that go, as long as equally usable debunking references are listed. (In fact, 911Truth may qualify as an attack site, and would then be unusable even in an article about the organization itself.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

So let me get this straight. If one page on GeoCities says "I disagree with 9/11 Truth" it's reliable? — Selmo ^(talk) 20:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Your edits at Neanderthal

Please stop with the intentional ignorance.... your Quote:"Doesn't appear to be from German"... There is a whole section on its German origins at the article... I'm going to show you a fair and hard-to-miss-unless-you-are-doing-it-intentionally sample from that section: "The term Neanderthal Man was coined in 1863 by Anglo-Irish anatomist William King. Neanderthal is now spelled two ways: the spelling of the German word Thal, meaning "valley or dale", was changed to Tal in 1901, but the former spelling is often retained in English and always in scientific names, while the modern spelling is used in German.

The Neanderthal or "Neander Valley" was named after theologian Joachim Neander, who lived nearby in Düsseldorf in the late seventeenth century.

The original German pronunciation (regardless of spelling) is with the sound /t/. (See German phonology.) When used in English, the term is usually anglicised to /θ/ (as in thin), though speakers more familiar with German use /t/." Please stop intentionally provoking other users and ignorantly dismissing their contributions as "vandalism", or "incorrect." 172.191.100.66 18:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I reverted myself as the next entry. Although most of your "from German" edits were clearly incorrect, this one was correct. Please talk to other editors if they are reverting your entries. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

As for words borrowed from German:

1. Check the reference, and look at the history on that article, and on the German wikipedia article.
2. For good measure, lets delete all mentions of the German language since you are so anti-German.
3. german.about.com is not "uncredited borrowings from Wikipedia and other Wikis", but about.com, please show me how "mostly" it is such.

172.191.100.66 20:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Deutsche [Lehnwort im]-->[Loanwords in] English

(EDIT: Oh, ok i understand some of your edits, not the following though.) Then if we are going to rename Machpolitik to Power Politics, lets rename Realpolitik to Real politics/Realistic Politics... The article was created by an IP(65.129.4.139) in 2003 anyways, which is something to take into account since now IPs are not allowed to create articles, and IPs anyway are prone to plainly just adding inaccurate information. Machtpolitik is a german loanword, and its still used, i say like Realpolitik(which was not created by an IP), to move Power politics to Machpolitik. because with the term power poliotics it could be coined by different meanings other than the one we mean. like say.... a video game could be named "POWER POLITICS" just for dramatic weight, and so forth,

Article on dictionary.com clearly showes Machpolitik and has no entry for "power politics", "power politic", etc.

Machtpolitik

n. `power politics`

([5])

or from this definition in a book called German English Words at Google Books Machtpolitik "power politics": international diplomacy in which each ... The English term power politics is a loan translation of Machtpolitik. Also, im not sure if you know this, but Loanword is ironically itself a borrowed word (a loanword) from German. 172.191.100.66 19:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

"Loan translation" is not the same as "loanword". As for which "politik" words are used in English, m-w.com reports:

• "power politics" – politics based primarily on the use of power (as military and economic strength) as a coercive force rather than on ethical precepts
• "machtpolitik" only in the paid version
• "realpolitik" – politics based on practical and material factors rather than on theoretical or ethical objectives

This suggests that "realpolitik" is a borrowed word which is actually used in English, while "machtpolitik" is not. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Loan translation=Calquex (obviously a loanword), and i was not understanding that concept until i saw the article on Calque. But still, it doesnt even say anything for Machtpolitik except "Buy our FULL VERSION NOW!"... and it was originally machtpolitik and i, albeit probably hopelessly, still think it should be moved to it with strong emphasis that Machtpolitik has since been translated into English as "Power Politics," like Realpolitik.172.191.100.66 20:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Spitz

I didnt really add anything that needs any sources... I was reverting a vandal IP who deleted material without explanation. 172.191.100.66 19:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

"Cheque"

The article "Cheque" was originally at Check, and by checking the history you clearly see the earliest edit was a vandal moving it to Cheque to further his point-of-view. (History list) (actual edit on which it was moved) 172.191.100.66 19:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably true. Unfortunatly, there was a ruling in a similar article to the effect that keeping a "stable version" is more important than following Wikipedia naming guideline in general (so, even if the name should be check, that it's been at cheque for a few years dominates.) Perhaps it was cat flap. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply but,

If contributing to Wikipedia was illegal there would not be a "edit this page" tab. Please stop removing appropriate external links from Wikipedia, as you did to September 11, 2001 attacks. It is considered censorship and Wikipedia is a vehicle for curiosity and discussion. Since Wikipedia uses history logs, subtraction of links from Wikipedia will not alter the facts. If you continue censoring, the magic that made contributing to Wikipedia fun, will be lost forever. — Darts777 20:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion but,

Is vandalize newspeak for contribute? What version of the newspeak dictionary do you use?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Darts777 (talk • contribs)

Now he's warning other editors.[6] They must be running a seminar over at prisonplanet on how to cause maximum disruption for the longest amount of time. - Crockspot 21:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The link is not particularly good, and probably edited, and the change in "Patrick" is clearly vandalism. As for warnings, that's just weird. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I already reported this joker to AIV. I don't have your patience Art. :)- Crockspot 21:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your warning but,

Is there a list of what the party allows to be edited? Because if not, the whole page should be read-only protected, to prevent these problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darts777 (talk • contribs)

Constructive edits are welcome. Name vandalism, links to additional (and edited) videos of the buildings, and other inappropriate information are not. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you 'o god of Wikipedia, your list was very educational!

Have a nice day. Darts777 21:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Loose Change (2007 film)

You are repeatedly deleting material from this reliable source - http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2007/07/27/jprowe0727.html . Please stop vandalising the article. Hereward77 21:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you are deleting this reliable source - http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2007/07/31/jprowe07306.html . Could you rewrite to have both? (And it may be important if the 07-31 source contradicts the 07-27 source.) It's partially my fault, as I didn't see the difference, and assumed you were just moving sources around, adding material which was not in the source. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The citation was unnecessary as it is already cited after the following sentence. The only contradiction is that the first source gives Rowe's side of the story. Thanks. Hereward77 22:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The version of 22:36 is acceptable to me. It has both the "official" claim and Rowe's claim properly sourced. Your previous attempts did not, nor did my attempts prior to the last one. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Steven Jones

Hi Arthur!

You undid my addition to Steven Jones page stating that David Griffin's book was peer reviewed.

The book in question is David Griffin's "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out". When asked by Steven Jones whether the essays collected in the book, including his, were peer reviewed, this was David Griffin's response (email addresses have been removed to protect privacy):

On 8/1/07, David Griffin wrote: Steven,

Yes, all the essays were peer-reviewed. Most of the contributors were, in fact, asked to revise their essays on the basis of the reviews. And not all submissions were accepted.

Cordially,

David

On 7/31/07 9:44 PM, "Steven Jones" wrote:

Hello, David and Peter --

About the book holding my article, i.e., 9/11 and American Empire, Intellectuals Speak Out -- were all the essays in this particular book peer-reviewed? If so, does the book say so somewhere?

This seems to be important -- someone is asking me, and we find the peer-review issue arising again.

Thanks, Steven J

Since the authors of the book describe a peer review process and indicate that on the basis of this process most of the manuscripts had to be revised (typical for any peer reviewed publication) or ommitted, what is your basis for claiming that the author's are lying?

You may peronsally disagree with the contents of these essays, but please do not remove my accurate inclusion describing this book as peer-reviewed unless you can provide me convincing evidence that David Griffin included Steven Jones' essay (and the other essays in the book) without asking anyone to review them. Please call or contact me if you would like to discuss this further.

Thank you!

Respectfully,

Mark Patterson 434-326-0180 Mark@MarkCentury.com

If the book states it's "peer-reviewed", or the publisher (if a reputable publisher) says it's peer-reviewed, we may include that, unless there is notable opinion to the contrary. Personal correspondence from the authors fail WP:RS (or whatever the current location of that policy is). Personal correspondence from the editor fails WP:V. If the editor publically says it's peer-reviewed, that's almost enough for some comment on peer-review.

As, at least I, find it improbable that the book really is "peer-reviewed", we need some source we can WP:ATT. You'll note that none of us have (recently, anyway) tried to include "non-peer-reviewed" in the description of the book, although, I, at least, believe that to be the case. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Salvnaut=MarkCentury? Time for a WP:RFCU? Pablo Talk | Contributions 23:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

My mistake. I thought it was the anon I was reverting on controlled demolition hypothesis and building implosion. I need to keep my reverts of nonsense straight. Salvnaut could have been the anon, but I don't think he's MarkCentury. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I find it very strange that SalvNaut came around and started performing reversions right after Mark got blocked. Pablo Talk | Contributions 23:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion at the Quackery article

I'm trying to get a discussion going over at the Quackery article about the Notable People Accused of Quackery section of the article. The section keeps getting removed so I'm trying to get a dialogue going about the usefulness of this section. I figured you might be interested since you were involved with the original discussion on this section. Elhector 20:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

2029 Anniversaries

I'm not trying to be rude, but why did you get rid of all the anniversaries on the 2029 page. Other future years have anniversaries, why can't this one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.236.27 (talk • contribs)

I believe the current consensus is that no anniversaries should be listed unless a specific celebration/memorial is planned. I only watch a few of the year articles, so I'm only attempting to maintain that in those articles. Perhaps WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS may explain why some articles have anniversaries but not others. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You are not supporting the project

When I saw that you had signed up tp support the logical operator project, I was pretty happy to see some support. Now I am wondering about the different "good faith" interpretations of "support." If the bot does not tag those articles the work is going to fall on my shoulders, because no one else is going to do it (as we have seen). If the bot is stopped for good, that's potentially thousands of articles that I will have to tag all by myself. Furthermore, there really is a substantial component of an organized Wikiproject which no one will be able work on without the assessment tags. Do you understand that I am justified in being very upset with you and the rest of the math cabal? You are hurting the Wikipedia more than you are helping with these actions. This latest move by yourself, and zivka is a "no compromise" strategy. You can see that I am trying to achieve a compromise here. So what are you going to do to help the project move forward? Not tagging at all is not an option. Making me do it manually because you guys are territorial on Wikipedia is just disgusting.

I am going to submit whatever list consists of the original minus any category that people have communicated that they don't want (as stated). There is no better compromise for you people. I will submit it with a good faith intention, and having done more than I needed for due process. Gregbard 21:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Having reconsidered, I think we need to establish a list, and then establish consensus that it should be used. But, not tagging articles whict aren't related to the project, whether or not in related categories, is always an option. "Due process" would require deleting all the bot-added tags and starting over. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agreed with you up until that last sentence. Respecting due process would mean that you, Zvka, and the rest accept that you missed your well publicized and more than sufficiently lengthy opportunity to have input into the process. I am not the only one who was waiting for this. The fact that we are discussing it again means that due process means nothing unless it benefits a few complainer's own postiton. It seems to me that they can do the tedious work of removing the tags just as easily as myself putting on tags. The difference is that I went through the process from the start. Gregbard 01:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't agree that discussion only in (a subpage of) WikiProject Logic is adequate notice for something that would have tagged over 5000 talk pages. I don't know if you should have notified WikiProject Mathematics, but you probably should have put a notice in the Village Pump (which I probably wouldn't have seen).

As a practical matter, I think the agreed untagging would require then retagging using the reduced list of categories, but including the categories already tagged, so it might be simpler just to untag all and start over. I guess we'll have to leave that decision to the bot operators. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I want you to think about what would happen if we operated on that "principle" all the time. Due process means something. You can find new venues for announcement all day long. If after the whole thing is said and done and there are still complainers, the thing that is done in moral society, is move on without them, and invite their increase participation the next time. Otherwise anyone can hold any group hostage. Some people complain no matter what. At some point the group must be able to move forward. Gregbard 01:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I'm still shooting for August 11, so if you guys feel strongly about excluding categories, you should demonstrate that by then, or cry about it later (not to be mean, but at some point it really has to be that way). Gregbard 01:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Now that's just wrong. The group is Wikipedia, not WikiProject Logic. And I'd have to say that consensus as to this list was not obtained on WikiProject Logic, as the notification was on a subpage. Wikipedia operates on a consensus, not "do it and wait to see if someone objects". — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The notice was in three places including the portal page which gets general readership. I have seen this situation before in the use of due process. Would you believe that the notice was adequate if the consequences were to your liking? Be honest. I think we have also forgotten the point that these tags are on talk pages. There is no reason to object to them at all. WikiProjects have not traditionally asked permission from others to include a page in their project. This phenomenon is entirely a product of territorialism that has no place here. Gregbard 01:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't watch the logic portal. (In fact, I'm not sure I understand what a Portal is supposed to be.) My mistake. However, there are some changes to articles and templates which I agree are accurate, but have reverted because they were inadequately sourced, so I would like to think I would object on the grounds of inadequate notice even if "consequences were to" my "liking". I've also deleted an AfD which was piggybacked on one of mine, even though I thought the article should have been deleted. (Actually, that was PQ (logic), so you might have noticed. I created the AfD on FS (logic).) You may draw your own conclusions.

As for your assertion that WikiProjects don't ask permission to include pages in their projects, that's true. It's also true that, as many of the larger categories clearly do not fall within the scope of the project, WikiProject Mathematics would probably have "authorized" (suggested, whatever the appropriate term is) using a bot to remove some of the categories from the project. I don't understand philosophical logic (or whatever non-mathematical logic is called); in suggesting some of the categories, you've established that you don't understand what those categories are about. This suggests, as some have done in Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Logic, that you should have placed a notice on the talk pages of the categories. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"I don't watch the logic portal." It seems you do not understand due process. It's not about YOU. As far as the community is concerned there has been more than adequate due process. Your assertion that I should have tagged 100 categories is an an unreasonable expectation. It would have defeated the purpose of using a bot. This is a demand for special treatment beyond what is necessary, or appropriate. This is especially true, given the nature of talk pages and project tags. This whole mess is a product of unnecessary, unhelpful, territorialism. Gregbard 02:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC) P.S. I don't see that exclusion list growing at all.

Well, you should (in that sense) requested a bot to tag the 100 categories (actually category talk pages) for possible tagging into the WikiProject, rather than just tagging them. (In fact, I'm almost certain there was an option for the bot you requested add the pages in the category to do so.) Alternatively, you could edit your .js file to include a button to include the text at the bottom of the talk page of the page in question, and then right-click each of the categories to open it in a new window, and click that button. A little setup work, but it would make it clear who was proposing the measure. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What can I say? I agree with this just fine. I had no idea there were these options. I certainly have no aversion or lack of patience to go through such a process. However, I still think that it is overkill. It has not proven to be necessary up to this point for any other groups. I am starting to believe it is a cultural thing among mathematicians. I still see no reason we can't move forward on a de-tagging, and a tagging list by 11 August. I hope that's not what you are suggesting. Gregbard 03:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

$\leftarrow$I just have a comment for Greg. All of the math project tags have, to my knowledge, been added manually by members of the project(tedious yes, but most of our rated articles have rating field importance and a comment...something a bot cannot do). Why don't you tag the key articles automatically and leave the questionable ones for the editors to add later as they encounter them.--Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 04:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, let me know what categories you think should be left out, and we'll proceed on 11 Aug as planned. Gregbard 04:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Vote stacking

I concur, which is why I quickly recanted. Djma12 ^(talk) 02:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Truth vs. Conspiracy

There is no one name for the group of conspirators who challenge the truth behind 9/11. The article's title was misleading and inaccurate, and I will redo the page the next chance I get until you give me a valid reason for keeping it at truth.

Alex. --Alegoo92 21:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"911 Conspiracy Movement" is just wrong; nobody calls it that. You can propose the article for deletion, but renaming it to a name which nobody uses violates WP:NAME. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT, and Lake Forest

First of all, thanks for noticing the page moves I made to the two Lake Forest town articles -- as I said in the edit summary, I made them to generate attention and discussion, and I appreciated yours as much as the other discussion. Also, I certainly don't have any objection to your reversion of the moves; they were based on a proposal, and one that, as I expected, does have some folks who object to it, so it's right for the articles to remain at their old names until/unless the proposal gains consensus.

However, there was one comment you made that I am confused by. You said that, "If he hadn't propagated the double redirects, I would have considered it "good faith"". What did you mean by that? I did change the targets of the pages that redirected to the (now a redirect) old name, because otherwise they would be double redirects, which would make it harder for visitors to find the page. I see how this means there are more edits needed to revert the move -- is that what you objected to? If so, I apologize, and if you haven't reverted the redirects, I'll certainly do that myself, now. My intention in snapping the redirects was both to generate more edit summaries in the hopes of gathering more attention, and to avoid broken double redirects that could confuse users. I look forward to your further explanation of what about my snapping the redirects you objected to. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it would have been better if you'd left the double-redirects broken, as it was a test proposal, although reasonable people could differ on that. Your edit summaries for the double-redirect term confused me. By the way, is "snap" a tool or script you use? In context, the term is unfamiliar to me. I could always use tools, even if I haven't applied for AWB access. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, that makes sense. "snap" is a metaphor from rubber bands -- when you have one thing pointing to another thing pointing to a third thing, "snapping" means changing the things to point directly. If it's not in Wikipedia:Glossery(sorry about the spelling), it should be. Have to run, may say more later. JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of discussion

Please do not remove discussions from article talk pages like you did to Talk:Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate). Your reverts have been reverted as vandalism and will be reported as such if you continue. 196.207.32.37 17:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry about this. I did not intend to get you into trouble as this does seem to be a genuine misunderstanding which is partly my fault. I will try to give better explanations in the future but do want to urge you not to use words like forgery and fabrication which has legal connotations and tends to push some buttons. ;) I don't really edit that much and this IS a shared IP, shared as in used by a number of people all at the same time. 196.207.32.37 01:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Cathcart AfD

the primary proponent (here) has been unable to produce a WP:RS, in spite of claimed knowledge of the field. - I had never intended to contribute to Cathcart's article, before the political ambush AfD, much less this past week. More discussion and guidance to specific policies concerning PhD theses is requested for an unusual case, where the *summary material* (Cochrane Collection reviews) is considered extensively reviewed and reliable, the author is considered reliable, but the author's more detailed underlying material presented in the thesis isn't(?) guidance request, 1st added paragraph, re Hemila's 2nd PhD. Here I think the various review conditions (Cochrane, subsequent public comment, PhD review in a known sensitive topic area) with a reliable author are substantial. Thanks.--TheNautilus 11:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure "the primary proponent" was supposed to be you. IMHO, a Ph.D. thesis falls under our self-published guidelines, so it would only be reliable if the person, is, at the time of publication, a recognized expert in the field. This is unlikely in the case of a Ph.D. thesis, but not logically impossible. The meta-analysis was separately published in a peer-reviewed journal, so it is considered a Wikipedia:reliable source.

I have more AfD edits than Pierre or Lumos3 at that point; Lumos3 and I each had one previous minor edit. Hemila, already MD+PhD and associate professor, has been a Cochrane reviewer for Vitamin C & respiratory diseases from some time in the 1990's and looks like the heavy lift author by 2004, given the amazing overlap between his 2006 thesis (original work requirements?) and the previous Cochrane review even though Douglas was listed first. Hemila is first listed in 2007 for the Cochrane review for C and pneumonia. Simply, I consider the (University reviewed) wealth of detail in Hemila's 2006 thesis (2nd PhD) superior and more up to date, again Cochrane vetted in part by overlaps with Hemila, Louhiala (2007, C + pneumonia, favorable). I haven't had a chance to go over any free version of Douglas, Hemila (2007, C + colds, again), looks pretty similar on summary (My primary criticism is that their negative conclusions are not clearly demarcated in press reports as effectively terminating at 4 to 6 g/day for *general* populations, often without mentioning that substantial subpopulations *are* recognized as measurably benefiting at 1-6 gram/day or another mainstream test at 8 oral grams per day (not properly divided) with some positive indications according Hemila, or being well below Cathcart's B-T "mega-macro" ranges, 20-200+ oral grams per day.)--TheNautilus 21:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Notes

Abuse of your admin power at Photoshopping

This edit is a particularly blatant abuse of your admin powers. Admin powers are not supposed to be used to assist your side in edit wars. I know you simply have not followed that policy, as you abused your powers in the past to do a block that was motivated out of spite instead of any real reason, but you'd think by now that you'd start to worry about trying to play straight. Please undo your edit before someone else is forced to undo it for you. DreamGuy 15:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I also think it would be better if you didn't write on my talk page, as long as I am not allowed to comment on your egregious errors on your talk page. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Arthur, I think he's right; I was appalled, too. You've given him one more distraction to pick on. And your comment suggests that his incivility is rubbing off on you. I recommend you unprotect the page and not use any admin powers in any dispute in which you are involved. Dicklyon 23:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't protect the page, and wouldn't have, as I don't think the edit warring had gotten to the point where the 3 or 4 main contributors couldn't keep his erroneous edits in check. However, I'm not going to let an edit in place which could leave Wikipedia subject to trademark violation lawsuits. I think reverting to the last non-erroneous edit from DreamGuy may be a reasonable compromise. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I must have mis-remembered the sequence. Still, you should probably ask the guy who protected it to decide what to do. Dicklyon 00:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I now see that it was User:Nihiltres who edited, protected, and reverted. He should have just picked one role, too; editor or admin, but not both. Even when he realized his error and reverted he left evidence of bias for DreamGuy to use as a distraction. It's too bad, because all these little things just give him something to use to avoid facing his conduct problems. Oh, well. Dicklyon 00:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Phil Rizzuto

I haven't found a source that specified time of death. However, I've found a lot of sources that stated "late Monday night" and more recent ones stating he died on Tuesday. In my mind, neither statement is contradictory. The Major League Baseball website lists his date of death as the 14th. I've changed the death date and cited it accordingly. As we both know, death dates are often incorrect early on. If you've got a better source, please revise the death date – and include the source. Cheers Rklawton 04:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Freedom of the Press is Necessary for a Democracy to Avoid Tyranny

Dear Arthur Rubin:

Our founding fathers knew implicitly that power corrupts and they gave us protection from unwarranted searches and they gave us freedom of speech to serve as a counterweight to tyranny..

If I were you, I would think very carefully about this quote because it relates to the type of country that your grandchildren may well live in if you and I do not take steps to protect our freedoms today:

"AN EVIL EXISTS THAT THREATENS EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IN THIS GREAT NATION. WE MUST TAKE STEPS TO ENSURE THAT OUR DOMESTIC SECURITY PROTECTS OUR HOMELAND." --- Adolf Hitler

Yes, Arthur, this quote was not said by President Bush-- it was said by Hitler, in an attempt to use fear to manipulate and control... He later forged a dictatorship out of a free election using the Reichstag as an excuse.

Please don't think it can't happen here.. because it can when people suppress free information and when they won't seek the truth..

This is the mindset that your have been sold-- You are an intelligent person-- don't buy it.

Wake up. Think about it... These are the people who will turn against YOU first-- once they have used you as a spinmeister..

"Homeland" security searched my checked baggage at Long Beach a few weeks ago-- Why? I am a 51 year old housewife and former professor-- and they have me on their watchlist.... This is what Hitler did to his citizens, using fear as the excuse. He later started killing them...

No one thought it could happen in Germany and it did. Just look at the history of the Bush family and their deep post wwII connections to IG Farben and Nazi flight capital--- and you will see the truth of what I am saying... (google John Buchannan-- you will see that he was arrested for his research-- it is happening here...)

God bless you and I hope He opens your eyes before it is too late for our precious nation.

Freyfaxi 14:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

9/11 Article

You reverted my edit, citing the talk page, without actually having contributed anything to the talk page. Please refrain from this antisocial behaviour, or alternatively you could go to the talk page and become the first person to actually adress my arguments. Damburger 14:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion on the talk page is clear. Terrorist is used by all reliable sources. If you could find a source that said that it wasn't a terrorist act (even among those who say it was committed by agents of the US Government), then we would have to add a caveat. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion on the talk page is obviously not clear, because you have TOTALLY missed the point of my objection. Either participate properly to the talk page, or kindly stay away from the article. Damburger 16:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

None of the other editors commenting on the talk page see your point, either. What is it? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Take it over to the relevant talk page please. And you are mistaken about 'none' of the editors there failing to see my point. Damburger 16:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Name one who sees your point, then. I don't see the need to say "I concur with the above clear consensus" on the talk page in order to act on it in the article. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Rklawton and Melsaran clearly do. Are we even reading the same talk page? Damburger 16:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Some have objected to "Islamic terrorists", but I see no objection to "terrorist" in the talk page, other than yours. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Then you haven't read the page. Goodbye. Damburger 16:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

They only posted less than an hour ago. Consensus is still that you're wrong, but, if it really is policy (although I don't agree that it is), you may have a point. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not policy, it's a guideline. Guidelines may have exceptions, and this is clearly a good candidate for an exception. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

You've gone from "there is nobody agreeing with you on that page" to "the consensus is still against you". Now suddenly policies (which are treated as such elsewhere) are guidelines? Perhaps we should take this up on the 9/11 talk page where it belongs? Damburger 17:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Both of them posted in the previous hour, and the MoS is not policy. This one, IMHO, does not reflect policy. It certainly doesn't reflect any policy mentioned on the talk page at that time. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Blanking of External Links section from WTC collapse article

You have blanked a clearly legitimate section of the Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center article and gave no good reason. This is a warning. If you vandalize anymore 9/11 Truth articles I will inform the administrator intervention against vandalism list of your activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.62.150 (talk • contribs)

You are in no position to complain. You happen to be writing to an admin who is just applying policies against using non-RS links. -- Fyslee/talk 21:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

List of numbers

In List of numbers, what is your basis for restoring the statement that lower case φ, which normally denotes the golden ratio, also denotes the golden ratio's reciprocal? This was thoroughly hashed out in the Golden ratio article a long time ago. While one can find stray examples of upper case ф being used for the golden ratio and lower case φ being used for its so-called conjugate, standard mathematics usage today is the reverse. Also, the List of numbers should conform to Wikipedia's articles on the relevant subjects. I didn't want to revert you without asking. Finell (Talk) 02:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought I changed the reciprocal to ${\hat {\phi }}\ \mathrm {or} \ \Phi$, leaving φ for the Golden ratio. If I didn't, please fix it. ${\hat {\Phi }}$ just isn't right. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not familiar with phi-hat for the reciprocal; that is what I meant to question, but did not make clear. The Golden ratio article uses Phi (uppercase) exclusively, as do most other sources (especially relatively recent ones) that I have seen. I'll wait for your response before doing anything. Finell (Talk) 19:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You wrote "Phi-hat", which I corrected to "Phi" or "phi-hat". I don't have have any objection to removing "phi-hat", although have seen that for the actual algebraic conjugate of the golden ration, which is ${\frac {1-{\sqrt {5}}}{2}}$. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You just pointed to another problem with the Golden ratio article, discussed long ago on that article's talk page. Some (e.g., Weisstein, Eric W. "Golden Ratio Conjugate". MathWorld.) define golden ratio conjugate as

$\Phi ={1 \over \varphi }=\varphi -1\,.$

Others say the term conjugate should be used only for what you call the algebraic conjugate, that is, the negative root of the defining quadratic equation. Perhaps you could contribute some enlightenment on this and other matters in the Golden ratio article. Finell (Talk) 20:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, lost my head

That edit was rather pointy I guess. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

I have a question that I hope you can answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{2}}}|{{{2}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{2}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{2}}}|contribs]]) 15:26, August 18, 2007}65.102.143.104 (UTC) Yes? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Hey, how's it going? — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{2}}}|{{{2}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{2}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{2}}}|contribs]]) 15:28, August 18, 2007}65.102.143.104 (UTC)