Talk:The Great Gatsby

The Major Theme

A major theme in The Great Gatsby is the magical escapades of Jay Gatsby. As a wizard in the 20th Century society, Gatsby struggles to gain the acceptance of his peers. He can never openly reveal his powers because of the risk of social intolerance. The antagonist of this novel is the mysterious demon spirit Miniver Cheevy. These two opposing forces become enemies in a conflict regarding the Gatsby Coat of Arms which endows its wearer with the power to turn invisible. The climax of this novel takes place in Chapter XVI where Gatsby and Cheevy duel. The outcome of this battle is the slaying of Jay Gatsby, showing that modern wizards and anyone who is 'different" has no secure place in a modern society <Parody>Addidas1503 13:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Detailed synopsis

Chapter I – The book opens with one of the most famous passages from any work of American literature:

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.

"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

Spoken by the narrator, Nick Carraway, the first sentences set up a chapter of self-commentary. Nick characterizes himself as a moral and tolerant person, which attracts the confidence of others. His tolerance has its limits, and also its exceptions- Gatsby is mentioned as the embodiment of all that Nick despises, but is exempted from Nick's limits of judgment.

Nick writes from the summer of 1922, when he decides to move East, to Long Island, New York, and enter the bond business. He rents a house on the West Egg, an unusual land formation opposite the East Egg across the Long Island Sound. The East Egg is home to the old aristocratic families, while the West Egg is the home of the newly rich, filled with displays of poor taste and incredible wealth. Nick happens to live next to one such display, revealed to be Gatsby's mansion. Hope it will blossom! --18.51.0.194 17:50, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nick Carraway-Protagonist?

"The protagonist of the novel is Nick Carraway This is a very argumentative claim. One could argue over whether Nick or Gatsby is the protagonist. Nick does very little in the story, whereas Gatsby drives the majority, if not all, of the plot. Gatsby is probably the protagonist, Nick being a 'more than partially involved narrator.'

Okay, I can see you have changed "protagonist" back to "narrator" in the summary. When I wrote that summary a long time ago (see [1]) I wrote "first person narrator". I have no idea why, but dozens of people have found it necessary to add or change something here, which made this text somewhat messy. If you have a look at other articles on works of literature, hardly anyone ever expands them or changes something. Would it be valid to conclude that The Great Gatsby is one of the few novels people have actually READ? <KF> 23:30, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Gatsby and the American Dream

The story of western civilization since the Renaissance has been one of optimistic hope. With each passing decade, it seemed that science, technology, knowledge and liberty was bringing man closer to a utopia. With the dawn of the twentieth century, just as it seemed that man finally had the means to achieve the dreams of the past, the optimistic drive for the future collapsed into disillusionment and dismal pessimism. Nowhere was the fall more catastrophic than in America where the dreams had been greatest and the fall had been shattering. Fitzgerald and Miller are both able to use their characters to express the grandeur and the ordeal of the tarnished American Dream. The differences in the characters of Jay Gatsby and Willy Loman are in a deeper sense the differences in the different eras of the American Century. As Willy Loman is sixty in 1949 and Jay Gatsby in his thirties in the 1920s it can be surmised that Gatsby and Loman are around the same age. Both most lived a signif The Major Theme An major theme in The Great Gatsby is the magical escapades of Jay Gatsby. As a wizard in the 20th Century society, Gatsby struggles to gain the acceptance of his peers. He can never openly reveal his powers because of the risk of social intolerance. The eventual dual he faces with "Gerald Williams" claims his life, showing how society can never be tolerant of differences in relation to the American Dream. ==The Oggsford Page== The merger box at the top of this well put together article is unsightly, and could easily be dealt with by adding the small amount of information in that stub to the "Trivia" section of this article, or deleting the Oggsford page altogether.

Literary elements

I'm moving the entire lit-crit section here. It reads like the outline of a half-baked high-school paper. We should move back pieces as soon as we find sources for them, but as it stands, all of this violates the rules on original research.jdb ❋ (talk) 08:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It's sort of weirdly ickypedian to call this "lit-crit" when it's simply an explication. Is this standard practice? Sort of half-baked synopsis=good, but random notes on thematic content=bad. What's the point of gathering knowledge if it's restrained in this fashion. Is it the depth to which you object or the impropriety of introducing ideas within your domain?

Structure

• Nonlinear representation of time
• 1st person limited point of view
• reported points of view of secondary characters

Themes

I honestly believe that these are not themes and should be changed to motifs because that's what they are. They're recurring themes. Discuss, please.Desouki 20:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Appearance Versus Reality

• Gatsby fantasizes over Daisy to such an extent that the reality of the actual person can never live up to his expectations. The same applies to Gatsby's gathering of power and material wealth. This is the ultimate tragedy of Gatsby's character — he is not content living with only his ghost-like fantasies, yet the reality of life can never live up to his grand ambitions.

• Time

• When Nick Carraway makes a remark that people can't recreate the past, Gatsby objects, saying, "Of course you can." Gatsby not only fantasizes about the future, but the past as well, perhaps imagining Daisy as more pleasant than she really was. This is yet another source of Gatsby's inability to find satisfaction in life.

• Failure of the American Dream

• The American dream, the idea that one can get ahead with hard work and moral righteousness, no longer exists and has been replaced by a desire for money.
• The rise and fall of the American Dream. It is debatable whether Buchanan represents the American Dream, by which people obtain their wealth openly and legally, whatever their status in society, in contrast to Gatsby, for whom the acquisition of wealth has its origins in the underworld. Tom Buchanan is unfaithful; Daisy Buchanan is artificial; Gatsby himself is an enigmatic and shadowy figure. This is highlighted by the passage regarding the Dutch settlers near the end of the book. Just as the settlers envisioned a limitless world of possibility as they caught a glimpse so did Gatsby also catch a glimpse of an entirely new world of the aristocracy. The fall of the dream is the reality that results from the initial world of limitless possibility.

• Minor Themes

• The novel discusses questions of racism through the character of Tom Buchanan who, on top of his loose morals, is also a white supremacist. This theme, however minor in its focus, adds to the Buchanans' corruption in contrast to Gatsby.
• The contrast between East and West. Fitzgerald contrasts the Eastern and Western portions of the United States in many of his works (Diamond as Big as the Ritz is a prime example) but in Gatsby, West Egg (where Nick lives) is visually the more garish of the two and of a distinctly lower class, while East Egg is where the "old money" lives, and of a higher class. In addition, Tom and Daisy move to East Egg from the midwestern suburb of Lake Forest, Illinois. Lake Forest at the time (though this depiction is still fairly accurate) mirrored the social structure of West and East Egg, with much of the "new money" concentrated in the west side of Lake Forest, while most of the "old money" lives on or near Lake Michigan, on the east side of Lake Forest. This even more obvious contrast gives the reader a clear idea of the author's opinion on social classes in America during his time.

Symbolism

• The green light on the end of Daisy's dock is introduced at the end of Chapter 1, when Gatsby reaches, "trembling", out toward it across the Sound. It may represent Gatsby's dreams and hopes, but has other, more subtle, associations such as money and the go-go attitude depicted of the 20s. The light also seems to symbolize the impossibility of Gatsby winning back Daisy, being far away in the distance and out of reach. It can also be interpreted as a veil that hides the true Daisy from Gatsby's eyes. Green is also the color of jealousy, and — while Gatsby himself does not outwardly display any such kind — there is a possibility that he is jealous of Daisy's marriage with Tom Buchanan. It should be noted that around this time, there was a lighthouse just off the coast of East Egg which displayed a green light; however, in real life, the green light was replaced several years before the novel takes place. The light turning on and off suggests the futility and the briefness of Gatsby's dream. Also this is a mechanical light, proving again how poorly founded Gatsby's dream is, or suggesting that his real desire, through Daisy, is material status.
• The clock that Gatsby, in his nervousness, knocks off the mantlepiece when he is first re-introduced to Daisy is symbolic of his desire to turn back time, and to relive the life he once had with Daisy.
• Fitzgerald was among the American expatriate who lived in Paris in the 1920s. The name Gatsby is a close homophone of the French word gaspille from the verb gaspiller ("to waste"). It also is a pun on "gat," the slang term for pistol which references the illicit way in which he had earned his money (bootlegging and selling his wares over-the-counter in a chain of pharmacies) and for the way in which he dies.
• The air mattress Gatsby struggles in carrying to his pool which he was shot in may be a symbol of Jesus carrying a cross to the place of his crucifixion.
• There are many images of thin moons, faded moonlight, stars and single body parts. These all imply the fragmented world in which they live and that attempts to grasp for a moment are futile as what exists is temporal and elusive.
• At the end of Chapter 6, Gatsby sees the blocks of the sidewalk forming a ladder, but knows he can only climb it alone if he wants to "suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder." The ladder symbolizes the social ladder and that Gatsby must choose between love and class. However, he decides to try to achieve both and ends in destruction.
• The colors white and yellow have special significance in the novel. White is a symbol of purity and goodness, while yellow is the color of wealth which causes corruption and greed. Gatsby's world, East Egg and West Egg, is one that superficially appears pure, but is less savory at its core. Similarly Daisy projects an image of innocence, but that is later revealed to be merely a facade. She is unconcerned about the consequences of her choices, and acts solely on the basis of what she wants at that moment in time. Even her name relates to this theme, because a daisy is white on the outside, but yellow on the inside. Gatsby used two cars: one, which is a cream color, towards the beginning of the novel, and the yellow "death car" with which Daisy and Gatsby strike and kill Myrtle Wilson.
• Water imagery abounds in the novel including the houses and women floating on the sea, the "foul dust floating in the wake" of Gatsby's dreams and the "beat on, boats against the current" image with which the book ends. This suggests the uncertainty of life for the characters and the lack of a solid foundation on which to base their lives. Within modernist art water imagery was common as the characters are always unsure where fate will carry them.
• The hot and cold is also a key symbol, to show the book "heating up" (rising action) and cooling down (falling action).
• The Billboard of Dr. T.J. Eckleberg's eyes are ambiguous. They may represent the eyes of God looking over the valley of ashes, east, and west egg. His Blue eyes represent heaven, peace, truth, hope, life, and water. Or, as Fitzgerald hinted in letters to the publisher, they may be intentionally meaningless on their own. They only adopt specific symbolic value in the novel when it is actively invested in them by characters, eg they do not suggest to represent god until the point Wilson describes them as such, whilst the scepticism of Nick of this idea reinforce the idea of them containing only personal meaning.
• It is notable that many of the female characters have names of flowers (e.g. Myrtle, Daisy). Like the flower, "Daisy" is weak and fragile, yet beautiful. They are all seen primarily as sources of empowerment and meaning for the men in the novel. They could also represent the desire of men to possess the women as they please, as decorations they may exhibit to others, as Tom does with Myrtle. Gatsby also seeks to possess Daisy, though not for the same reason Tom wants Myrtle. Gatsby puts Daisy up on a pedestal; admires her for her beauty and her seeming perfection, as one would admire a flower for its beauty.
• Fitzgerald, along with Ernest Hemingway and other expatriates, constantly resurrected the theme of a "waste land" established by T.S. Eliot in his poem of the same name. In the poem, Eliot speaks constantly of loneliness and despair while conjuring dark and depressing imagery such as bones and ruined cities in order to reflect his theme. It is no coincidence that in The Great Gatsby the road from West Egg to New York City contains a veritable waste land known as the "valley of ashes". In one interpretation, the ash heap, which George Wilson lives in, symbolizes the constant plight of the poor while they endure the constant oppression of the wealthy and the seemingly toxic output of the capitalist system of which they are the victims. The eyes of T.J. Eckleburg which overlook the ash heap serve as a reminder that even though the wealthy may live well on earth and the poor, as George Wilson, have to bear a waste
• The eyes of the T.J. Eckleburg billboard and their placement in the valley of ashes suggests a sense of judgement (they are constantly being watched) such as when Mr. Wilson is looking outside into Eckleburg's eyes remembering saying to his wife, "God knows what you've been doing...You may fool me, but you can't fool God." However, it also introduces a theme of cryptic social interactions and the sensation of "cloudy vision." The eyes are wearing glasses — clearly seeking clarity but constantly obstructed by the "dust." The dust might symbolize the complicated sins of the people of the city, especially as they relate to Daisy, Tom, Gatsby, and Myrtle.
• The consumption of alcohol is also significant. The 1920s society is construed as a hedonistic, materialistic culture which has become obsessed with money, pleasure and the importance of appearance. Alcohol, it seems, adds to the attraction, ignorance and acceptance of such a world. Nick's perception of the parties changes rapidly as he consumes alcohol, changing them from gaudy and unpleasant to something "elemental and profound". We also sense his acclimatisation to life in New York as he tells us the party in Tom's apartment is only the second time in his life he has gotten drunk. It should also be noted that the story takes place during the era of Prohibition in America, when the manufacture, sale and transport of alcohol were illegal. This suggests that Tom is above the law, like Gatsby.

• The valley of ashes, which is mentioned a few times, has been thought to represent the social degradation over time.

---

Here's more. Again, this violates WP:NOR; needs to be sourced. jdb ❋ (talk) 01:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Themes

Time and money are not themes. They are recurring themes, making them motifs. They appear in the story many, many times. Themes usually appear in one or two passages. Please discuss before this is changed. Desouki 20:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: The delineation between theme and motif is very approximate. Themes reccur, as do motifs - lexicographically they are nigh identical, although the implication is that themes are stronger ideas that run through a novel without individual, blatant exposition, whereas motifs crop up noticeably without influencing the course of the piece hugely.

• Time

Though clearly delineated by the final passage, time comes back again and again in Fitzgerald's work. In his first face to face meeting with Daisy, Gatsby himself is tellingly described as "an overwound clock." Indeed, when told he can't repeat the past, the title character exclaims, "Of course you can." Later, in his confrontation with Tom, Gatsby wants Daisy avow that she's never loved her husband, virtually erasing the past in one stroke.

• Money

Daisy's voice "sounds like money." Nick Carraway comes from a family of money in the Middle West. Tom is the very definition of socio-economic privilege. Jay Gatz devotes his life to acquiring his love by the power of money. Meyer Wolfsheim fixes the World Series with and for money. Like so many American books, from McTeague to Ragtime to The Wings of a Dove, getting and holding money is a focal point, a source of power that informs and controls the fictional world.

• Mechanization/The Changing World

Gatsby's car shows his worth, and sets him apart from the polo ponies of Tom's old world living. The car that kill's Tom's lover--not to mention the auto mechanic who lives in poverty--show a dichotomy between the mechanized and ideal worlds. Nick sells his car to move back West, rejecting the industrial, impersonal environment of New York.

• Truth

At the outset, though the narrator calls himself "the only honest man he knows," the novel shows continual prevarication, from Tom's affair to Gatsby's underhanded efforts to enrich himself. Even Gatsby's past is hardly straightforward, a mix of bent truth and wishful thinking that call into question his "greatness." Though the truth is highly valued, almost as exalted as Daisy herself, it's exactly her truthfulness in her confrontation with Tom that shatters the title character's illusions, and eventually his life. Most importantly, Carraway sets the standard for the unreliable narrator--a man who values but hardly upholds a standard of unvarnished honesty.

I really must take issue with this characterization of Nick. In my experience he is not generally discussed as an unreliable narrator. Nick is never seen as participating in the dishonesty described here, and hence is a contrast to the other characters. Helmling 07:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Geography

"East Egg and West Egg are thinly disguised versions of Port Washington and Great Neck, New York."

Actually, from the explanatory notes of the 1995 paperback edition:

The fictionalized geography of The Great Gatsby was based on the actual geography of Long Island and the borough of Queens. See map on page 206. —p. 208

On the map, Great Neck is West Egg and Manhasset Neck is East Egg. --Geopgeop 09:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the map and is the best evidence of Fitzgerald's vison. It should be Great Neck and Manhasset.

Gatsby's vintage cars

I was expecting to find some info on the Gatsby vintage cars here, but google found it for me on www.gatsbyscars.co.uk. Maybe one of the authors of this page could add the information :)

Cheers

To the one who wrote the comment above: The site you provided is someone who has vintage cars. This has nothing to do with the book. So I don't think it'll be added.

Major themes

Removing the lit crit section is one thing, but I believe that a section describing Major themes is in fact part of the Wikinovel Project format. 203.45.11.154 05:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot line holes

This is a really inadequate summary of the book, here are some comments:

- Of course Tom knew that Daisy hit and killed Myrtle. Fitzgerald didn't choose the words "conspiring" (as Daisy and Tom were the night after) for a reason. Daisy is morally weak, she would have told Tom.

- No mention of Wolfshien, which is critical to understand that Gatsby is new money, while Tom is old money.

- There needs to be far more theme detail about the "corrupted American dream". i.e., the dog, supposed to be loyal, runs away. Family dinner, supposed to be uniting and personal, and time for family, yet Tom is interrupted by a phone call from his lover. Baseball, a "family sport", yet it has been fixed and corrupted. Daisy "searches for the longest day in the year, then misses it", obviously the elite rich have nothing to do with their lives...

There is seriously so much more to this book than the literal level. Of course, I understand that this is Wikipedia, but I mean, you can't talk about Great Gatsby without understanding the key themes. Rake 07:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Unreferenced Composition Section

I am the one responsible for adding the unreferenced Composition section to the Gatsby article about a week ago. I realized after I'd composed it that I didn't know enough about citing sources according to the wikipedia guidelines, but I thought it better to go ahead and post the remarks I'd drafted anyway because I was shocked at how threadbare the Gatsby article was. I see now that there is a lot of information caught in limbo here because of lack of sources citation and a central organizing theme to the article.

What I'd really like to do is see the entire Gatsby article redrafted to be more inclusive and informative. My students and I will be working with Gatsby at the beginning of the coming semester and I think that will afford an opportunity to bring a lot of resources to bear. Between now and then I will read more thoroughly through the wiki guidelines for situations like this. For the time being, I have posted links to the two sources I referenced most in composing the section in question. I don't think there is anything I included from my own recollections that is not verified in one of these two documents.

If anyone has any advice, warnings, thoughts, instructions, etc. about this article, please let me know. Helmling 07:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and can I remove the "unreferenced" flag, or do I need to wait for an admin to approve?

Vandalism

I just undid a particularly bad(not as in effect, but rather in content. At least be creative here, people!) vandalism, care of 68.200.72.236. It comes out as being a DSL IP, so its probably some kid avoiding doing his homework.

Perhaps a registered-users only lock on this page?

Ekashp 05:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this page certainly attracts more than its share of vandals --- probably mostly students who are frustrated at on being required to read this book. The downside of locking out anonymous users is that you lose the good edits that anonymous users sometimes provide --- I looked through the past week or so of history, I see a couple good edits by anonymous users along with many many cases of vandalism by anonymous users. Still, the amount of effort that goes into clearing up the vandalism on this page is pretty high. The policy on protection of pages refers to "heavy and continued vandalism" as being a reason to indefinitely semi-protect a page --- is what we're seeing "heavy" enough to semi-protect this page?Rickterp 15:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's necessary, about a half-dozen editors who check into wikipedia pretty regularly appear to have this on their watch list. And it only takes a couple seconds to revert the vandalism. I went through the edit history for this past week and the page only spent about 2 hours -- out of 168 -- in a vandalized state before being fixed. Most of the vandalism was pretty minor as well. Further, if we protect it, the vandalism will probably just leak over onto the F. Scott Fitzgerald page, and we won't really have accomplished much. --JayHenry 21:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Minnesota?

I just noticed that this article was categorized in "fictional characters from Minnesota." I'm not sure this categorization is correct. For one, this article isn't about the character but the book (and why does Jay Gatsby, one of the most important characters in literature not have his own page?). But more importantly, I'm pretty sure Gatsby was from North Dakota. --JayHenry 15:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"Just why these inventions were a source of satisfaction to James Gatz of North Dakota, isn't easy to say." -- Chapter 6, paragraph 4. It goes on to say that he attended St. Olaf's College in Minnesota, and before the funeral: "I think it was on the third day that a telegram signed Henry C. Gatz arrived from a town in Minnesota."

I would think that the discrepancy between where Jay was from and from whence his father came was probably unintentional, though Mr. Gatz mentions that Jay bought him the house in which he currently lives. Fitzgerald was notoriously bad with details, and this could have been something that Max Perkins missed. God knows he had enough to worry about....

But I agree: Jay Gatsby needs more than a redirect.

—  MusicMaker5376 16:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Time Top Ten

Hmm. It seems that someone has added a reference to every book on the top ten list at http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1578073,00.html as being "named by Time as one of the top ten books of all time." This statement isn't really accurate; the online Time article is actually about a recent book (The Top Ten) which is just a compilation of various contemporary authors' personal top ten lists. To say that Time named any of these books as the "ten greatest of all time" is basically just incorrect.

Although Modern Library named it the second greatest novel of the 20th century if someone cares to note that: http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esquilax8 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Reword it then. Create a page for the Top 10 Time Awards and voice the controversy there. --Rake 17:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you misunderstood the problem. Time Magazine never made a list of the top 10 books of all time. Time Magazine wrote a review about a book that sought to rank the books. Time actually goes so far as to say such lists are an obscenity. The way it's written now is inaccurate. The Top 10 Time Awards don't even exist, so we can't make a page about them. Read the book review in Time and I think you'll see why it was removed and why I'm removing it again. --JayHenry 17:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

External link reverts

? -- Stbalbach 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't do any of the reverting, but I watch this page. Seems like "the stories of F. Scott Fitzgerald should be a link on F. Scott Fitzgerald and not here. And we already had a link to an e-book version of The Great Gatsby. Is there a reason one is preferable to the other? --JayHenry 15:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Horrible summary

The book summary is very unorganized and, at times, doesn't sound like it is from a NPOV. Overall, it's a pretty bad summary. Doodoobutter 02:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't be scared to change it. --Adasta 10:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected Article?

Why is this article protected? Which administrators would I talk to about entering new information, more specifically into the trivia section. There is some information on this book that I would like to add to this particular article.

Media Tycoon 1 04:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The article is only semi-protected. Any registered user, such as yourself, can edit it. — Walloon 05:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it won't let me because I'm knew. Media Tycoon 1 05:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)