Talk:Itachi Uchiha

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Second merge continuation

To roughly summarize the discussion so far, the current viewpoints are as follows:

Merge because he can be merged: 3
Merge because he's not a major character (at the moment): 2
Keep because he's important: 6
Keep because he's been active in the series lately: 1
Keep because an article is more informative: 1
Keep because more people want him to have an article: 1
Keep because of the last discussion: 1

As can be seen, people who want to keep the article have the majority. In my opinion, the "Keep because an article is more informative" stance, while not the best of reasons, is considerably better than all the others so far. Anyway, as you were. ~Snapper T o 22:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I clap for your patients to go through all jabber to get the tally Snap.TheUltimate3 01:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also thank snapper2 for going through this mess. While I would like to see it merged, its clear that more wants the article to stay. -ScotchMB 01:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yay for Snapper2! That must have taken a while. Jazz Band Member 11:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This has been going on for awhile. Sam on the blue sand, I think you lost for now. Try and fix up your proposed 'new' article and try for a third merge attempt. If Itachi becomes more active and more information is revealed about him, don't try as he will have suffice information to have his own article. Omghgomg 12:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First off my name is Sam, second off Wikipedia is not a majority, and just because they want him to stay they still haven't given reason besides "he's important" and other pretty reasons.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does however work off of consensus,and so far the general consensus for Itachi's page is keep.Lastbetrayal 23:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. And nothing seems to be changing, so is there really a need to keep this discussion going? Jazz Band Member 00:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If its not a majority then what the hell is the point of this page. You can't ust do whatever you want. Back to the issue why do we need to take away yet another well formed article and reduce it to a few paragraphs. The real question should be why take the article away not why keep it. How is this article's existance as independent negativly effecting the quality of Wikipedia? If you go on Answers, which I think is an inferior site you'll see almost every character has their own article and as a result their is a good three tiems the information available. That alone shouls spur a drive to expand into more articles not delete what few remain. JayLupin38 08:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes but they haven't given any other eason besides "he's important" so you're basing consensus off of fanboys? If that's what wikipedia is about then how did Plot of Naruto Shippuden not make it?Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, this discussion was driven by fans and opinions. -ScotchMB 01:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm just blowing steam (heh heh heh....steam. Family Guy humor...X0) but who would be the ones editting entertainment specific articles? That being said, the editors have spoken. Not that you'll stop or atleast wait, but they have spoken.--TheUltimate3 11:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Plot of Naruto Shippuden was not even liked by fans. Sure I liked it, but it wasn't needed. And, of course fans would be the only ones driving this discussion... who else would be on this page? Jazz Band Member 11:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you azz Band Member and TheUltimate3 who else but a Fanboy is going to give this article or any naruto article for that matter a second look. JayLupin38 09:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.3.31 (talk)

I thought Artist Formerly Known As Whocares already proved he was a major character, oh well. Anyway, in controversial merges supermajority is used to decide the outcome, and thanks to Snapper2 we can run the numbers. out of 13 total acceptable votes only 4 chose merge which means only 30.7% agree with you which is far from 60%-80% needed. Try again later, pending that he still hasn't done anything.--Kaoskaix 18:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those aren't good reasons. So you're telling me if I got 10 people in here to say merge then i'll win? That is not Wikipedia where disscussions are won by how many friends you have.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How many friends you have? Sam the only friends I have that contributated in anyway to this disucssion was Snap and Artist, and the former is rocky at best.TheUltimate3 20:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't consider anyone here my friend because I kinda just recently decided to get an account after nearly 5 years of using wikipedia. And check the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus_vs._supermajority as Supermajority is wikipedia's policy reguarding controversial deletions and mergers. Also I think that we should delete the "problems?" and "Itachi gets a penis and Deidara doesn't" sections (or depending on if your really obssesive and pissed, contact an admin)as they have been horribly vandalized. If you take Naruto too seriously I wouldn't advise reading those sections as you would be pissed. Kaoskaix 21:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow 5 years. I've looked you up you have no past disscussions nor have you filled out your user space now sure that's nothing but I did take into acount you were talking about being an IP but your IP-ship has nothing amazing for you to talk down to me like you did. the whole friend thing was just me showing you guys what that's equivlent to: saying that if concensus isn't reahed then it goes to majority and the friend thing was an example of that meaning that if I did have a dozen of my friends to create accounts and vote merge here then by the rules I win? Amazing how wikipedia has deformed itself into a competition of how many friends one has.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you just skim our posts? I said I've been using wikipedia for 5 years not editing and talking for 5 years. Do try to read the entire post thoroughly and understand where I'm coming from wether or not you agree with me. I was talking down to you I simply pointed out the facts, and if you see anything I don't see then please do point it out so I don't make that mistake again. Like I said something should be done about the "problems?" and "Itachi gets a penis and Deidara doesn't" sections. I'd do it, but I literally just registered recently and I have no idea what to do in this case. Also it appears some immature vandal has edited the Article itself and I'll fix that.Kaoskaix 21:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I haven't been on for a while, but I'll say this as quick as possible. Thank you, Snapper2, for going to the trouble of searching the posts for reasons and votes, and thank you, TheUltimate3, that was really nice. ^_^ Also, Sam, mabye reading all of this in a single day made me angry, but right now I just want destroy you limb from limb (You don't cross me when I'm angry ^_^). Why? Because you're willfully flouting away several policies and yet you comment on how the others are ignoring or violating the same policies, and most of the times so far they aren't. My suggestion for you is that you should try your best to take other members' opinions more seriously rather than a random attempt to disagree with you, which you have been doing. And to correct Snapper2, I NEVER said to add a plot section, but mention how his actions did affect the plot, like the Uchiha massacre. Now for why to keep him: Notability: No question. Besides Naruto, Hokages 1 and 4, and mabye 3 and Sasuke, Itachi is the most important character in the series. Every action he does is important in one way or another. Affecting other characters: Whether or not most of his actions affect others or not is not a reason for a merge. Information: His article is fairly large enough to keep, as few other characters could reach this length. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 22:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good to have you back, i'm guessing school was in your way, me too that and my job. But anyway that was a personal attack, like the third you've given me since I've ever spoken to you and all three I've ignored. Nice to see people ignoring my question: if I brought a dozen of my friends here and they created accounts and each came here and said merge then by the rules I would win, correct? And if school was the reason why you haven't been here in a while then I can only say one thing: school's a bitch. ^_^ Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The same way you haven't answered mine huh. Essentially, yes, were you to tell 12 friends to get on and do it you could win, but we now have proof that you don't like the article if you are willing to go to the length to tell someone to deny their beliefs and do a favor for you to have your way. On contrary I could do the same with my friends or even siblings, or even make hundreds of accounts at the library and do the same. I'd never do that though because that would be making a mockery of Wikipedia, and I personally love Wikipedia and do not want to see it dragged through the mud by one user who hates this article. Also you should spend less time on responding to post, especially when you latest posts aren't even pointing out anything important and new about the merger, and more about re-grouping maybe updating and rewriting you Bye Bye Itachi. This proposed merger should be archived as it has already been shot done. I'm sure you will try a third time, Sam.Kaoskaix 00:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So just cause some freakin fanboys come in and say keep even though i may have had a better reason they did that automaticaly forces me into defeat? Wow how freakin amazing how wikipedia is revolved around fanboys. Nah keep it up for another day cause I got more I wan to say and more others might want to say.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fanboys? What about fangirls? Had to put that. Anyway, it is clear we all have different opinions on whether or not a reason is good or not. Jazz Band Member 00:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Sigh)This has been going on for almost two weeks.Sam,at least 'try' to assume good faith,that not everyone who comes to this page and disagrees with the merge is a fanboy.On a side note the fact that you seem to become more erratic the more people disagree with you,and how you seem to express intrest in getting friends to create accounts to alter consensus is a bit worrying.Lastbetrayal 01:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok fangirls too. And no the whole me getting my friends over here was to prove how stupid that sounds, but if a dozen people came in here and said merge I guess I'd be screwed huh? ^_^ i don't see why i have to say the same thing over and over when all they're going to say is the same thing they just said a minute before. look when someone comes in here an repeatitly says things or have said things like I like him or he's cooler than every one else then my brain comes up with one word in mind, fanboy or fangirl.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, Sam your kind of exploding here. Just take this as experience and make sure next time you try that you cover the basic reasons so that next time in about a week or so more of us will agree. For me all it needs is to be updated, properly arranged, and have some more about his family history and I'll say Merge(If you can fit it all which I'm not sure it's possible to fit all that I would consider acceptable)(Info boxes please) --Kaoskaix 01:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But his history can be summed up in 2 paragraphs it doesn't have to be an essay like this is. Keep it for the weekend as i have one more thing up my selve (so to speak). And I'm not exploding, trust me when I explode I start cussing like no tommorrow, I know you can't tell but that last post of mine was full of humor.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's 73 kilo's long now, common! Just start a third attempt and bring all your friends to it. The one thing it didn't have that would have taken up more space was the part where his dad paid little attention to Sasuke. At first I didn't think it belonged and then I read that Itachi told their father to do it. I believe it shows some of his emotions towards his brother or at least a point that he wanted him to get better faster. Either way it does need to be in there. --Kaoskaix 01:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So,what exactly do you have up the proverbial sleeve?Lastbetrayal 02:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And all 73 kilos can be archived. And as for what's up my sleeve just something so all those nice things you guys promissed you'd do will get done, i just need the weekend to fix it up.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 04:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's the weekend. What did you do, Sam? Jazz Band Member 11:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah nothing yet cause i said I needed the weekend.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 16:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes. Any hints of what you are doing/will be doing? Jazz Band Member 16:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,Sam.Could you sit on the merge proposal for a bit?At least until the deletion for the Akatsuki members page is sorted out?Cuz if this gets merged,and the members page gets deleted,then we lose just about everything on every member.Lastbetrayal 17:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To return to the issue of importance, being important within the series does not entitle a character to having an article. As Artist has suggested, the First, Third, and Fourth Hokages are all of greater importance than Itachi. How many of them have articles? If you said "none", you are correct. So, it would seem, how a character has impacted the universe he or she lives in means nothing in terms of article-worthiness. And I have still yet to see anything that is in this article that can not be found in the proposed merge, minor details and plot points aside. ~Snapper T o 18:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they were all important.But do you know why they don't have articles?Lack of information.

First Hokage-He founded Konoha.At some point he battled Madara Uchiha(supposedly)and Kakuzu.
Third Hokage-If you will recall,he used to have an article.However as he died some time ago,and very little information about him has been shown about him since,it was decided that he no longer have an article.
Fourth Hokage-Same deal as the first.We know almost nothing about him except for a couple of his past exploits,and that he is apparantly Naruto's father.

Itachi unlike them is still alive and has enough information for an article.Lastbetrayal 01:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And that echoes the fact that being important does not automatically allow a character an article, which gives those five "keep because he's important" viewpoints less weight. ~Snapper T o 01:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why exactly are you using an opinion to fuel your arguement. One persons opinion cannot be used as a base for an arguement especially when it's not yours. I might say he is of more importance than those 3. Maybe that he is more important than Tsunade or one rung below Naruto in importance. Is my opinion wrong, is his right? Who is qualified to judge that? Are you, is he? Your arguement has no base. Kaoskaix 00:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is qualified to judge that. The entire point of this discussion is to present opinions for consideration by the community. As I've stated before, he doesn't deserve an article under WP:FICT's guidelines. Heck, even the main characters are on shaky grounds due to the same reasons, and are kept because they cannot conceivably be put into a list. As for Itachi, there is no information present to satisfy WP:FICT, and saying that he will be important in the future does not qualify (WP:CRYSTAL). Snapper's current merge (see User:Snapper2/Sandbox) covers all the relevant information from his article without the substantial amount of extended detail and unnecessary information. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I am to not use my opinion, I'm afraid there will be no progress in any direction. That Itachi is important is an opinion. That being important means he should get an article is an opinion. I am pointing out that this particular opinion is likely to conflict with the "norm", if you will, and that a character's importance because of the number of things they have impacted does not always equate to getting an article.</opinion> ~Snapper T o 01:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merger Tag

Since the discussion was archived should the tags be removed or something?Or a new discussion be made?I'm not sure how it works,so could someone please inform me or take whatever actions are appropriate?Lastbetrayal 11:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the reason I archived the discussion was that firstly the talk page was getting too long (90 kilobytes) and secondly, the merge was unresolved as it continued for more than 2 weeks without a definite concensous. The tag will remain if people still want to hold another merge attempt. Hope that helps. Omghgomg 12:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Itachi's association with birds?

Yeah, I probably shouldn't ask if this should be put into the article while in the middle of a merging thing, but... Should we mention Itachi's association with birds? He seems to be able to make clones out of birds outside of Genjutsu. He uses them while in a genjutsu with Naruto twice, and while fighting against Sasuke recently. I'm not sure if this should be in the article or not, but, yeah. I believe it's mentionable. DarkRyan75 15:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Untill they have solid proof that his association with birds is outside of his genjutsu than it's not worth mentioning. I say that because he doesn't make any hand signs and he makes direct eye contact before he turns into birds so that might still be his sharingons dueing. Yxgtree 21:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hold the merge

I suggest that we wait to furhter discuss the merger discussion until after the Akatsuki one is finished, as if that is deleted than there would be no proper place to put him. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yah there would it's a little article called Akatsuki (Naruto), every heard of it?Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Under WP:SIZE it is said that an article in the 60,000 bytes-ish area up is suggested to be seperated if possible, and that is exactly what would happen again, which would lead to the members page being deleted again. In other words, neither organization nor members will work. Minor villians is for ones only in one-arc or completely minor (like the Rain team), which is not Itachi. He's not an ally, a Konoha ninja or a member of a major Konoha team, a Sand or Sound ninja, or summon, or a tailed beast. Shortly, if the members is deleted there would be no place to put him. Let's just deal with the members article first then get back to this, the members debate far surpasses this. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 22:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I take it you don't pay much attention to Akatsuki (Naruto)'s talk page? ~Snapper T o 22:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeh edit war. >_< i was just about to say that and besides as what Artsist just said I think other akatsuki members go under that description too. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question... do admins pay attention to people's opinions? Like, if there was a supermajority, would they care? Jazz Band Member 23:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No they do not. They don't have to. Just like we don't have to. Because technically admins are just normal members with superior power. That said, there is also an difference in communitiy. If us normal members without superior power were to ignore the majority then we would have a problem, edit wars, things like that but if a normal member with superior power (I.E. Admin) does the same thing but is backed up by what they know more than anything (I.E. Policy) then supermajority be damned.--TheUltimate3 23:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you guys want to be babies then go here and rant.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much they change anything that makes them not have their way. I can't wait until they change their mind and say every article needs to be split and that articles need every single pic possible. Of course that would mean that the people would be happy, and they would never allow that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.184.207 (talk) 01:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Problem Solved

Now that the Admins deleted the Lit of Akatsuki members they will probably lay off for a while. It was pretty childish but they got their way. -- JayStream12 21:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leave the admins alnoe they're just doing their job as wikipedians.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

yes but they ignored supermajority! 24.229.191.54 22:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn -- JayStream12 23:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I pray that last sentence wasn't bait.--TheUltimate3 23:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounded like it didn't? Only goignt o say one thing, my name is Sam.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright it was but now that the new Akatsuki page has had several images taken I have something new to complain about -- JayStream12 03:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]