Talk:European football records

I've never heard the term Grand Slam applied in this way before, on top of which the hat-trick of trophies is likely to be discussed less and less now that the Cup Winners Cup has been abolished. Does this count as original research? sjorford 09:25, 27 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen it referred informally as "treble" and "grand slam". However, "treble" is usually applied when a team holds three major cups in the same year (championship, cup and UEFA competition), so the later seems more appropriate. If anyone finds the correct, formal, UEFA name for three-cup holders, the article should be moved.
And I doubt this can be accounted as original research, since it was vastly referred when Valencia lost the two finals a couple of years back and more recently with Baía. At best the article name should be changed to other alternatives such as "UEFA Treble", "Continental Cup Treble" or those two with "hat-trick" instead of treble.
Can someone put forward any reference for this? I've never heard of this like seemingly everybody else. Otherwise I'm going to put forward this for deletion Bornintheguz 23:10, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

from VfD

On 2 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Grand Slam (UEFA) for a record of the discussion including more discussion about whether this is the appropriate title for the content of the article.

Title

Since "Grand Slam" doesn't seem to be an especially common name for this feat, and certainly not an official one, perhaps a generic title would be better - List of clubs winning all 3 European football cups, or something? It's hard to find a title that's unambiguous and not too long, though. sjorford →•← 11:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about change to UEFA competition records (along the lines of Football records in England) and add more info like record attendances? Bornintheguz 14:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it does count as original research. It seems that Uefa grand slam is an invented term, I never heard it before and could find other references to it. Renaming the article should be enough, though. D.W. 12 June 2005

Move request

I've put in a request on WP:RM - my recommendation is that it is moved to European football records and allowed to expand, although I'm open to suggestions. Any other ideas? sjorford →•← 14:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not fully convinced that European football records is the best title, but it's the best suggestion so far. If anyone can come up with another then please discuss it here. violet/riga (t) 21:34, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for starters, I'll merge in List of UEFA Competition Winners by Club, which I've recently found. sjorford (?!) 13:23, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Add European Super Cup? what do people think?

I think a new European Super Cup column should be added to Most Competition Wins table in order to complete the schedule. I see no reason to forget this trophy from counting. Indeed European Cup expired in 2000, and new Uefa Cup is to be considered a depreciated competition. What's your opinion?

Have to agree. The UEFA Super Cup is a valid UEFA administered competition and should be added to the list. Niall123 15:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

dont be silly, its not a competition its ONE MATCH between two teams? .I will be deleting the uefa super cup section. It should only include the 3 competitions! I DISAGREE! whole heartedly, this really is so unnecessary. its just one match between two winners of other competitions, it isnt even a real competition, i will delete immediately! I even have statsbook from past years, who always say the 3 major competitions in its european history sections, i havent never seen anyone include the super cup! This is so wrong! its not even a competitive match?! its equilvant of the charity shield, no one counts it! Post was left unsigned but created by Aman555

Considering 2 people are for the cup being included and 1 is against why should it be removed ? Its a valid European competition with one winner unlike the Intertoto Cup. Please also don't edit the subtitle which is about adding Supercups. Also, please sign your posts. Niall123 17:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

intertoto cup? whats that got to with anything? i never mentioned it. its not a competition exactly JUST LIKE THE INTERTOTO, it should not be included it was fine how it was and my statbooks i have at home prove that they have the exact same table as it was before that is the real european history not the super cup OR EVEN THE INTERTO CUP, so who cares if it's 2 for and 1 against its just us three who have mentioned this!

Wikipedia is an encylopedia based on concencus and correctness. This is a matter of opinion and as it stands the opinion of the majority is to include the Super Cup. Please explain why it isn't a European Cup ? And again, please sign your posts. Niall123 18:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just two team play in Super Cup. It is an additional honour, rather than a competitive one. And Intertoto cup just like another qualifying round for UEFA Cup. Matt86hk talk 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no the majority is now 2-2, i will conitually alter if the super cup keeps appearing saving my work and pasting everytime, it is unnecessary to say the least. very

http://www.answers.com/topic/european-football-records see look what i found, reinforces what i've been saying!

Never in a million years should the super cup be added to the list of european cups, people who think it should be have no clue about football. It's ONE game!! Niall, you should really think about what your saying, dont you realise hardly anyone considers the super cup a major cup, its just a commercial farce of a cup, nobody cares about it. Saying that the super cup is major european trophy is like saying the charity shield is a major domestic trophy!! 81.153.10.209 16:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

INTER CITIES CUP

REINSTATE IT, ITS THE UEFA CUP FOOLS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.196.110.222 (talk • contribs) 11:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was the UEFA Cup, idiots. I will be editing it in everytime it is replaced! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.196.110.222 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not the UEFA Cup. Entry for the Fairs' Cup was unrelated to final placings in national competitions and only clubs from European cities that hosted trade fairs were eligible. Uefa didn't organize the Fairs Cup and they don't even recognize it as a major European trophy. Basically it's the equivalent of the Intertoto Cup. And no one cares about the Intertoto Cup. BestEditorEver 12:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for ignoring this discussion. Anyway, the Fairs Cup was organized by trade fairs in seven European cities played by professional and, in its first editions, amateur clubs. Even though it was replaced by the UEFA Cup, the set-up and quality of the participants were different from its successor, and, more importantly, Uefa no longer recognizes the Fairs Cup as an official European tournament. On page 23 of this uefa.com pdf file (opens as html), for instance, it states that the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is not regarded as a Uefa competition. So why should their stats be incorporated into an article that ranks the winners of the three main Uefa competitions?

My suggestion is to add the Fairs Cup history , but separately included for information purposes only, just like on the uefa.com page. BestEditorEver 07:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit, I treat the UEFA Cup as a direct successor to the Fairs Cup, and would always combine the two for record purposes, in much the same way as I would combine the European Champions Cup and the Champions League. - fchd 08:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the way around this is to have a seperate section to deal with the Fairs Cup, that explains the "non-official" nature of the competition - with references. You could then put in its records, and perhaps show how it affects the overall total. I'm no expert, but if it wasn't the UEFA Cup, it wasn't the UEFA Cup. aLii 08:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As Mr. aLii said , I think the way around this is to have a seperate section to deal with the Fairs Cup, that explains the "non-official" nature of the competition , Also I add ((Latin Cup)) to non-official competition Saudi9999 08:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC).[reply]

TBF, they are both are together, official records state them as the same. Official records have them combined in terms of history of who won it and combine both records, i see it as the predeccesor. There's no question about it, it should stay in the main record strand.

The Uefa website separates Fairs and Uefa Cup winners [1]. BestEditorEver 11:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A separate section looks like a possible solution. Is this table what you guys have in mind?

{| class="wikitable" |- !Team ![[UEFA Champions League|European Cup/UEFA Champions League]] ![[UEFA Cup Winners' Cup|Cup Winners' Cup]] ![[UEFA Cup]] ![[Inter Cities Fairs Cup]]<sup>1</sup> !Total |- BestEditorEver 11:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For me, I think it's good but make itin another page like: European football records(official/non-official). Don't forget ((Latin Cup)), Saudi9999 14:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think keep it in the same page, don't make a new page me thinks. The Latin Cup shouldn't be in, it's not part of european records official ones e.g in football books. I think either interwine the records or the table shown above, either of those two.

Official records state the uefa cup records are intertwined with the inter citie as its its precedessor.

For any one want to add Inter Cities Fairs Cup to offical UEFA competition , He should give us convenced reasons.Saudi9999 09:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thirty-odd years of precedent is good enough for me. The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup/Fairs Cup/UEFA Cup has always been lumped together as "EC3". - fchd 10:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uefa does not consider Fairs Cup the same tournament as the Uefa Cup. There's no mention of the three Fairs Cups Barcelona won on the Uefa Barcelona page [2], nor does the Arsenal page mention the Fairs Cup win of 1970. [3]. Valencia has won both the Fairs and Uefa Cup, yet only the latter is referred to on its Uefa page [4]. They're not the same tournament according to Uefa, simple as. BestEditorEver 10:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with fchd, all throughout its history they have been lumped together, official records state both records together including football history books, it's a predecessor to the uefa cup and that is fact. Simple as that. It has been for 30 odd years now and still is lumped together. Even when mentioning Spain or Italy's european trophy haul on commentary, it says the tally of euro. trophies won with the fairs cup taken into account, how can anyone not count it as a european trophy is beyond me, it is in every team's honours list as a major european trophy won and in every book, including skysports 2005/2006 football book. All the indications lead to the fairs cup being included, simple as that. There is no two ways about it.

Mr.fchd you mean that "EC3" is three competitions 1- The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup/ 2-Fairs Cup/ 3-UEFA Cup . I said that's wrong. Because there was not two trophies called: The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and Fairs Cup it's only one. Also,"EC3" means the third european trophy like "EC1" = UEFa Champion League and "EC2" = Cup Winner's Cup. Finally, I can say your reason is not good to make The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup = UEFA Cup. I Hope you understand what I mean. Visit UEFA site, like what said by BestEditorEver. Saudi9999 08:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean it was effectively 1 competition, with three different names. It dropped the "Inter-Cities" after a few years, and then became the UEFA Cup in the early 1970s. And yes, "EC3" meant the third tier European Competition. It's still referred to as that by some statisticians even after the dropping of "EC2". - fchd 20:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from labelled the IFC as non-official this or that, it's the european football records page not something official. The IFC is a major honour and seen as this.

Try to familiarize yourself with WP:Verifiability. 'Major honour' is a subjective and unsourced claim. In any case, this article deals with Uefa recognized tournaments -- adding the Fairs Cup is already a stretch to me. So could you please stop removing the sentence clarifying that the Fairs Cup is not a Uefa tournament. Here's yet another uefa.com source to back this claim [5]. -- BestEditorEver 10:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please, this is european football records, who said anything about major honours its called the european football records. If you have FM or CM the game check the uefa cup history, the fairs cup is added to the uefa cup history. its common knowledge.

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/news/kind=1/newsid=2571.html

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/supercup/news/kind=32/newsid=447085.html

Whose common knowledge are you refering to? Uefa's opinion weighs a bit more than a computer game though. BestEditorEver 12:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, 2 things.

1. The inter-cities cup is taken into account with the countries all-time tally of wins. So stop taking those away, it's a european honour listed in every teams honours list as a honour worth noting, so the ITC should be in the countries tally.

2. Stop acting like a plank.

Thanks.

Correct, they are seen by some as a major honor, hence they have their own article. But they're not considered a UEFA tournament, which is what this article is about. -- BestEditorEver 18:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who says what this article is about? No single editor has the right to dictate the content or scope of any individual article. Consensus (albeit a small consensus in the scheme of things, seems to be against you.) - fchd 19:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. There are three editors who have argued to exclude the Fairs Cup. You and the badly mannered computer gamer are so far for inclusion. More significantly this article is about the winners of the three main competitions run by UEFA, and Uefa didn't organize or recognises the Fairs Cup. Also even if it was only me arguing against the two of you, at least my argument is backed by sources from uefa.com -- BestEditorEver 19:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect, the inter-cities is a european trophy, this is the european football records page, hence it is included. who says this is just a uefa page? it's the european football page, and the inter cities stays.

Is is considered the Intercities fairs cup, why not the Martini-Rossi Cup (predecessor of Uefa Super Cup), the Central Europe Cup (predecessor of the Champions Cup in 1930s and 1940s), the Latin Cup of early 1950s, the Rio Cup (recognized by FIFA since March 2007)???

The European Inter Cities Fairs Cup, according UEFA.com IS NOT a official UEFA cup, please don't add this in the article. This problem make of wikipedia a NOT serious website! --Dantetheperuvian 23:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pathetic! is the martini rossi cup a major honour listed on teams honours list? NO! is the central europe cup also? NO! same goes for the latin cup and rio cup, all NO. None of them are a major honour listed in teams honours list on wikipedia, OFFICIAL FOOTBALL BOOKS, on Football Manager or other various common things. Only the Inter-citites Cup is known why's that? Because it was a major honour, the preceddesor of the uefa cup.

NEXT!

OK, you want a ref, here's your ref. http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html

I QUOTE FROM THE SOURCE:

Forerunner

This forerunner to the UEFA Cup, the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, was founded on 18 April 1955, two weeks after the founding of the European Champion Clubs’ Cup. The first Fairs Cup involved teams from Barcelona, Basle, Birmingham, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Lausanne, Leipzig, London, Milan and Zagreb. The original tournament lasted three years, with matches timed to coincide with trade fairs. Barcelona, using players purely from FC Barcelona, beat a London representative side 8-2 on aggregate in the final.

Name change

The fifth of these was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup. The change of name was recognition of the fact the competition was now run by UEFA and no longer associated with the trade fairs. During the 1970s German, Dutch, Belgian and Swedish sides began to successfully compete with the English and between 1968 and 1984 only one team from the south – Juventus FC in 1977 – managed to disrupt the dominance of the northern Europeans.

LOOK AT THAT, "NAME CHANGE" I wonder what that means. It has been on wikipedia for years and suddenly it becomes changed? no, it stays. (Fadiga09 19:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]

HERE, in this uefa.com pdf file (opens as html) says: Inter Cities Fairs Cup and 1972 Super Cup ARE NOT recognized by UEFA. IT'S a UEFA official text, fool! That says also Champions Magazine and Champions of Europe 1955-2005 book, both edits by UEFA and UEFA is BETTER SOURCE than "mypage.co.uk", "soccernosequechuchasea", and others, he he.

--Dantetheperuvian 22:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You misread my post, i discredited your pathetic post about all those other trophies you mentioned. They dont have the same credence as the inter-cities cup in relation to the uefa cup.

You should read Wikipedia:Civility. -- BestEditorEver 15:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sorry about that. (Fadiga09 17:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]

I'm posting here without reading the above arguments, but here goes: The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is NOT the same thing as the UEFA Cup. The UEFA Cup may have been created as a replacement for the ICFC, having the same structure, but the entry criteria are different and the UEFA Cup is run by UEFA, while the ICFC was not. - PeeJay 23:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the references cited above I'm including the third paragraph in this uefa.com article. Uefa recognizes three clubs to have won all three Uefa tournaments. As you will see this trio does not include Barcelona despite winning the Champions League, Cup Winners Cup and the Fairs Cup. These references are evident that Uefa does not count the Fairs Cup results as Uefa competition. Including them as if they were, like Richard Rundle and Fadiga03 have been doing, is POV pushing and original research. -- BestEditorEver 08:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am with Richard Rundle and Fadiga03. The Fairs Cup is generally recognised as an early version of the UEFA Cup. UEFA even state this on their website and therefore it is not "original research" or "POV pushing" to say so. Note that the History article on UEFA's website (and therefore 100% official) refers to the difference between the Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup as being merely a "Name change". Not a new or different tournament, but merely a new title. We do not count the European Cup and Champions League as two different tournaments, so why do so for the UEFA Cup? Number 5 7 10:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have mentioned this before, but no-one is denying that the Fairs is the forerunner of the Uefa Cup. On the same website you cite, however, Uefa state they do not consider the Fairs Cup results a part of clubs' European record [6]. Also note that Uefa only lists the Uefa Cup winners on the ref you cite, no Fairs Cup winners are included. -- BestEditorEver 10:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So at best UEFA are inconsistent with their approach to the trophy's history. Thus it is up to us editors to come to some form of consensus about whether the Fairs Cup is the same thing. Perhaps a straight vote on the issue might be best to gauge opinion. Number 5 7 11:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's hardly Original Research, it's the way that European football statistics have been collated for decades - EC1 = European Cup/Champions League, EC2 = European Cup Winners' Cup, EC3 = Inter-Cities Faris Cup/Fairs Cup/UEFA Cup. - fchd 11:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(reply to Number 57) I don't agree Uefa is inconsistent. They only list Uefa Cup winners on their Uefa history page and clarify they don't count Fairs Cup results as Uefa on another history page. I do agree a vote would be the best way to solve this deadlock. -- BestEditorEver 11:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have anything new to add, number 27 has said is pretty much. But, i will anyway.

1. The links already been shown my number 27, but as said "forerunner" and "name change" is evident in its self, it means the results are related the competition is the same.

2. I have these two football books at home, one a Sky Sports 05/06 book the fairs cup and uefa cup results have been related in their european pages. I also have another one on the history of european football, its an old issue dated 1996, relevant none the less. On one page it shows the all-time country performance as it stand on 1996, Spain's fairs cup wins have been included and used as UEFA Cup results and added to their country tally.

3. Everyone has the Championship Manager/Football Manager games, doesn't matter which one from CM 1994 to FM 2007, go to the UEFA CUP page go to the history part and at the bottom the fairs cup results are there with the UEFA Cup results, go to either Valencia or Barcelona's individual pages and it reads "UEFA CUP WINNERS" 1962, 1963, 2004 and repeat for Barcelona's too.

4. To a lesser extent this, but on two football forums it reads under Valencia's and Zaragoza's names "3 UEFA CUPS" and repeat for Zaragoza "1 UEFA CUP" http://www.xtratime.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=122. On the second forum, it reads the same for Barcelona and Valencia. "3 UEFA CUP'S" http://www.xtremefootballfans.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=79

5. http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/history/index.html This quote says it all: "The fifth of these was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup." The fifth of these? they obviously regard the fairs cup as results if they say "the fifth one". I see no reason for this change, why now after all these years they have stayed the same on wikipedia? Pointless.(Fadiga09 21:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Protection

Due to the long-running edit war, I have protected this article and three others where the same UEFA Cup/ Fairs Cup dispute is occurring. Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (see m:The Wrong Version). As for all four articles the dispute is identical, I suggest discussion ought to take place on one page to help keep track. This page seems the most suitable place, as there is already some discussion on the matter here. Oldelpaso 18:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

This is survey to help gauge the degree of consensus on the subject of the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup. Should the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup results be integrated with UEFA Cup's on the following articles: UEFA Cup, UEFA Cup records and statistics, UEFA Cup finals, European football records?

For a discussion on the subject see [7] and [8].

Please add # Support or # Oppose on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Extended commentary could be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion". -- BestEditorEver 12:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey votes - Support integrating Inter Cities Fairs Cup results with UEFA Cup

Support UEFA website admits here it is just a name change. Number 5 7 12:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this has been standard practice when collating football statistics for decades. - fchd 12:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Well, i have nothing new to add i see no point in putting all my points together again here, everything i need to say is in my last entry above, 5 solid points proving the Fairs Cup was the Uefa Cup. And, as Richard said everyone knows the two results have been collated ever since the name change.

(Fadiga09 18:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Survey votes - Oppose integrating Inter Cities Fairs Cup results with UEFA Cup

Oppose - The UEFA Cup, UEFA Cup finals, UEFA Cup records and statistics and European football records articles describe the competitions run by UEFA. UEFA did not run the Fairs Cup and does not consider their results part of clubs' European record as stated on their UEFA Cup: All-time finals page. And to illustrate the discrepancy between Wikipedia and UEFA: according to Wikipedia FC Barcelona has won three UEFA Cups [9], while UEFA mentions no UEFA (nor Fairs) Cup wins on their Barcelona page. -- BestEditorEver 12:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Have a question and I couldn't find the answer on Wikipedia:Consensus nor Wikipedia:Straw polls. Are we allowed to respond to the comments in the votes section? -- BestEditorEver 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's best to respond to comments (i.e. engage in the discussion) in the "discussion" section. Just indicate whose comment you're replying to. Conscious 16:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought so. Thanks for confirming. -- BestEditorEver 17:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

in reply to Number 57: I find your wording questionable. Uefa did not "admit" to anything as far as I can tell. Also note how the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup winners are not included on their Uefa Cup history page. -- BestEditorEver 17:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

in reply to Richard: Maybe those unidentified sources have lumped the two tournaments together; an encyclopedia however cannot decide for Uefa which results they have to consider their own. -- BestEditorEver 17:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]