Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

August 26

CREATIVE WRITING --- SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH STYLE

I don't know where to post this question, either here or on Humanities (literature). Anyway, I would like to write essays with style. When I read my friend's composition, I noticed all of his paragraphs started with participial phrases. He called this creative writing. In one of his other essays, all the first words in his paragraphs, if combined together, read "WE SHOULD NOT CHEAT," which is exactly the very title of his essay and that is also the last sentence of his essay. I wonder if you can refer to me some links on "styles" of sentences and paragraphs.. I know there are multifarious styles on writing. My friend failed to teach me about this. Thank you for any help you would extend. God bless you. Carlrichard 02:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Constrained writing, perhaps? -Elmer Clark 04:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's what the original poster means. It seems that he just wants to learn how to write (and do it with style). It's a mere desultory event that his friend used constrained writing. A.Z. 05:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The booklet The Elements of Style may contain some advice or guidance that is useful. The essay How to write with style by Kurt Vonnegut is free and on-line.[1]  --Lambiam 16:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Sitting at my keyboard I'm not sure that starting all your paragraphs with participial phrases is a good idea. Having it with every paragraph would be gimmicky. In your second example (having the first words spell out a secret message) you've described a simple acrostic. This is also not a technique a serious writer would use. --JayHenry 06:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Poor George Herbert; condemned as an amateur. And Edgar Allen Poe fails the serious writer test too :( Splitting a message in the fashion described can be an effective technique is employed well, but it can also come across as gimmicky or cheap if done poorly. Alternatively, it can be entertaining for the author to play such games and see if they can do so without affecting the quality or sense of the work. Skittle 13:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hyphen

When describing something as being completely free of animal products, which one of these is correct?

• Animal-product-free
• Animal product-free
• Animal product free

Thanks! Aaadddaaammm 07:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I think different style guides offer different advice on this problem. The Chicago Manual of Style recommends "animal product–free", with an en dash rather than a hyphen, for cases like this. —Angr/talk 07:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The Chicago Manual of Style sounds good enough for me! Thanks for the quick (10 minutes!) reply! Aaadddaaammm 07:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a strange use of the en-dash. I would go with the third example, definitely not the second. The meaning is clear enough without the hyphens. Personally, I would prefer to recast and put something like "contains no animal products" or simply "suitable for vegetarians", which now seems to be the norm in the UK.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I had option 2 first, then changed it to option 1 then back to option 2 at Angr's advice. Thanks for your input, too, Shantavira - but I don't know if "Much work has been invested in finding methods suitable for vegetarians to prevent stem cells differentiating spontaneously" really has the right ring to it... :P But seriously, does anyone else want to cast a vote? It's for a uni essay in NZ, if that sways anyone's opinion. Aaadddaaammm 10:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Surely 'free of animal products' 'that do not use animal products' would be simpler and clearer, without the agonising? Skittle 22:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

For formal writing, I'd follow the relevant manual of style for whatever you're writing. For informal writing, I would use the completely-dashed-up-version since I think it's clearer. --Sean 12:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If feasible, you might consider using another phrasing, as you'll never please everyone with this one. My own opinion is that it has to be "animal-product-free" -- Anon, August 26, 15:52 (UTC).

It's kind of strange, because my first instinct is to group the compound noun 'animal-product' first and then describe it with free. This results in 'animal-product free'. On the other hand, if I were writing, I would be more inclined to leave out the hyphens/dashes altogether, or use the 'free of animal products' version. The lengthier version would be more appropriate for anything but product labelling or advertising.

The word 'consultant'

Do you think the work 'consultant' sounds phony What other words do you suggest in this field of people who are selling some form of know how. E.g. analyst, ...

Advisor? Skarioffszky 12:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It may depend on where you're coming from, but to me adviser as an occupational description sounds fishy, while consultant sounds just fine.  --Lambiam 16:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster says that the word consultant has been in the English language since 1697. By the way, know how strikes my ears as quaint and antiquated. I prefer knowledge. --Nricardo 18:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Knowledge and know-how, knowhow, know how have different meanings. I'm trying to think to myself how they differ, but the best I can come up with, is that knowledge means that you know what the components of a radio are, but know-how means that you can put one together. It's more manual than mental. Corvus cornix 16:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say whether it sounds phony depends on what goes with the word. "Management consultant" sounds fine, but "automotive surfacic detergent consultant" (some guy who works in a car wash) sounds as phony as it is. StuRat 01:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

When I worked in the financial district of NYC, "consultant" was the term used for those who were not paid directly by the employer, but paid by an agency used by the employer. It was very confusing, because previously a "consultant" was an independent who was paid very big bucks. 69.201.141.45 18:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of examples of this. Last night I saw a TV ad for a hairdressing salon in a small town, whose staff glory in titles such as "Senior Salon Executive", "Salon Executive", or "Salon Associate". -- JackofOz 01:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, an episode of Family Ties had Alex promoted at his job at Walmart (or whatever fictional chain name they used) to Junior Vice President in charge of Cat Toys. :-) StuRat 02:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Consultant is a word that has plenty of "phony" connotation; however, in any business environment it's still widely used. You could even use it in more informal settings, like flyering as a "organizational consultant" or, perhaps, "lifestyle consultant" without being too out of the norm. (Though I think the word "coach" is becoming more popular in those contexts.) I think it all depends on context. In very informal settings, you might bill yourself as a "professinal geek" or "nerd" even, these days. — gogobera (talk) 03:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, nothing has become as debased as "analyst", which currently means somebody with a bachelor's who can work Powerpoint fairly well. If he/she can also work Excel, they're a senior analyst.Gzuckier 15:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You're only allowed to be a coach if you're "mathematically challenged" (only people who "rode the short bus" can ask others to give 110%, 120%, or more). StuRat 15:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

August 27

I'm not loving it

The bloody McDonald's advert has made this phrase very common, but to me it sounds wrong. Surely the correct construction is "I love it". For example, I eat burgers, and I am eating a burger mean different things, if you were actively loving a McDonalds you'd have your mouth full, so wouldn't be able to sing a little jingle. So my question is, eventually, is this grammatically wrong, or is it just me? And is this an Americanism, hence why it might sound so awkward to me as an Englishman? Cyta 07:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It probably is an Americanism; at least, as an American I can say that this and similar constructions seem perfectly natural to me. McDonald's has made one particular phrase popular, but there are many others in the same form, such as "I'm liking this." The use of the progressive naturally creates a sense of something happening, of movement through time. Google books hits for "I'm liking this" show that the phrase collocates strongly with adverbial constructions like "more and more." As in "Now that I can get a lifetime worth of cholesterol in a single sitting, I'm liking fast food more and more." ... This may be part of the reason the slogan was chosen -- to project an image of this tired old hamburger chain as a happening place where the experience keeps getting better and better. "I love it" fails to convey the same impression. -- Visviva 08:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"How are you liking your new job?" implies that you're still in the process of forming an opinion, where "How do you like your new job?" implies that process has finished. Tesseran 11:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a "rule" that stative verbs – verbs denoting a state rather than an action – cannot take the progressive tense. Verbs likely to appear on lists of stative verbs include appreciate, be, believe, belong, conclude, contain, decide, equal, feel, forgive, have, hear, know, like, love, mean, owe, perceive, possess, prefer, remember, resemble, see, seem, smell, suppose, tend, think, understand, and wish. There are two ways to interpret the "rule". One is that it gives a way to figure out if a verb is stative or not: Can you say: I'm preferring coffee over tea? If that sounds strange to you, then, apparently, in your mental lexicon prefer is a stative verb. The other interpretation is prescriptive: some verbs are stative, and if you use the progressive tense for one of those you're an oaf who doesn't know proper English. Whichever of these interpretations you may be being preferring, using the progressive tense has the effect of "de-statizing" the verb, turning it into one of action, possibly for effect. That is easier with some on the list than with some others. I'm having difficulties believing that even prescriptivists wouldn't readily utter I'm having difficulties believing that. Still, where the progressive tense is usually needed in English to signal that some action is ongoing, with stative verbs you can normally use the present simple for describing an ongoing state.  --Lambiam 12:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict - Lambiam said most of what I wanted to say - and more!). I was going to say that certain stative verbs appear in the present progressive when the meaning is of a more temporary nature, or 'tentative' - i.e. the doer of the action is not sure whether what he/she is doing is right but is doing it tentatively. Ever since that phrase started coming out on the MacDonald's adverts I've always thought of the meaning as this.--Manga 12:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am always interested in how they translate it into other languages...it's just boring old "I love it" in German. Adam Bishop 12:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Some examples from the musical descriptivist side: The old song "I Never Knew I Could Love Anybody Like I'm Loving You" (composed in the 1920s and popularized by Judy Garland), "I'm Loving Nothing" (1968), "Just Imagine I'm Loving You" (1979), "I'm Loving Every Moment With You" (1990). ---Sluzzelin talk 13:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(Aside to Adam Bishop) English is somewhat unusual in having three present tense forms, whereas many other languages have one. E.g. English "I love", "I do love" and "I am loving" are all equivalent to "J'aime" in French. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 14:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but it's still slightly odd in English, so it's too bad there aren't slightly odd translations! Adam Bishop 17:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The French text, at least in America, is "j'm", which is cute. Tesseran 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks all. "I'm having difficulties" does sound ok in a discussion, but I would say, for example, I have difficulties with McDonald's adverts as well, it all depends on context and timing. If the slogan had been ushered by someone in the middle of a meal ("are you enjoying your meal", "I'm loving it") I don't suppose it would have sounded odd to me. Always interesting to learn grammar, I had never heard of stative verbs before, I learned English the easy way, being born into it. Thanks again, especially Lambiam Cyta 14:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Also to Sluzzelin, "Just imagine I'm loving you" suggests sex as much as love to me, and I'd rather not just imagine Justin Timberlake loving a Big Mac. "Do you want to go large on that?" Aggh forgive my immaturity. Cyta 14:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps he was attracted by a nice set of toasted buns...don't forget to visualize the "special sauce". StuRat 14:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, Super Size Me. Marco polo 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

In Ireland, you can even say "I do be loving it", 'cos Hiberno-English speakers often borrows from Irish language syntax. EamonnPKeane 17:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I just remembered I had a Mancunian high school teacher who used this phrase quite a bit (in different persons, like "you're loving it"). He also wrote it as "luvin it" once. Adam Bishop 17:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The McDonald's slogan is simply an attempt to sound young and cool. Note that the Quebec French version is "c’est ça que j’m." There's no such word as "j'm" in proper French. It's like SMS (text messaging) talk. -- Mwalcoff 23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess I am not young and cool then, ah well I knew that anyway. Thanks again Cyta 09:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

In France it's c'est tout que j'aime, which loosely means "I love it all." EamonnPKeane 12:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.mcdonalds.de/ uses "Ich liebe es". http://www.mcdonalds.fr uses "c'est tout ce que j'aime". Corvus cornix 21:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, the use of progressive present where British English would use simple present is a common feature of Indian English. The McDonald's adverts do annoy me, but then I strongly suspect they would annoy me even if they contained great prose, brilliant acting, high production-values, and were directed by Hitchcock. DuncanHill 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In Japan, they didn't even bother translating it, and the phrase is the same as English.--Manga 17:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

English to Latin [[2]]

Is there a site similar to babelfish that can translate English to Latin? --Czmtzc 17:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Not whole sentences, although this can translate single words and give you all the important grammatical info. Adam Bishop 17:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect! That is exactly what I wanted. Thanks--Czmtzc 12:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Numbers

The Irish language has three sets of numbers:

• one set for counting: a haon, a dó, a trí, a ceathair...
• one for giving an amount of objects: amháin, dhá, trí, ceithre...
• and one for counting people: duine, beirt, triúr, ceathrar...

Are there any other languages sharing this feature? EamonnPKeane 17:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Korean has:

• 하나, 둘, 셋: native numerals
• 일, 이, 삼: Sino-Korean numerals (from Hanja)
• 한 개, 두 개, 세 개: one thing, two things, three things: adjectival forms of native numerals when used for counting

--Kjoonlee 19:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

And if you go into ordinals, there's also 첫째, 둘째, 셋째: first, second, third. --Kjoonlee 19:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Using classifiers with numbers isn't particularly rare among the world's languages, but the Goidelic system (Scottish Gaelic and Manx having more or less the same pattern as Irish), which isn't really a classifier system anyway, is probably unique among European languages, or at least among Indo-European European languages (one never knows what freakiness is going to pop up in Basque or Hungarian). —Angr/talk 19:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Korean does use classifiers, but what Kjoonlee was referring to is actually two completely unrelated sets of numbers, one native Korean, and one derived from Chinese. Deciding which one to use for which purpose can be quite complicated. Then there's another set of words specifically for counting numbers of days, or specifying a date within a lunar month. It's not just a special classifier, but the entire word is not recognizably similar to the ordinary number words. --Reuben 16:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I had forgotten about those. 하루, 이틀, 사흘 for one, two, three days, and 초하루, 초이틀 for first day, second day of a lunar month.. Thank you! --Kjoonlee 04:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Japanese, like Korean, also has a few sets of numbers: mainly native Japanese numerals, most or all of which have archaic and counting variants; and Sino-Japanese numerals derived from Chinese. -Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.29.16.127 (talk) 11:46, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Well, in Russian, there's one set of numbers for counting and giving number of objects, but a different one for counting people. Conscious 15:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Really? I'm racking my brains here, and I can't think of a special set of numbers in Russian for counting people. Surely you can count people like anything else: один человек, два человека, ... I can't think of any other way I've seen numbers of people given in Russian. --Reuben 15:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Двое, трое, четверо, ..., десятеро. Conscious 17:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, I didn't think of that. You could say though that English has very similar words: duo, trio, quartet, etc. (among many other possibilities!) --Reuben 04:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Двое, трое, четверо etc are used not only for people, but also for nouns used only in the plural (eg. сани - sledge, сутки - a 24-hour period); and двое is used for nouns denoting words for objects usually occurring in pairs, eg. eyes, stockings etc). -- JackofOz 06:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm surprised by the similarity of ceithre and четыре. Conscious 06:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The first 3 Irish numbers are also similar (and in one case phonologically identical) to the first 3 Russian ones (a haon - один; a dó - два: a trí - три ...). A common origin suggests itself. -- JackofOz 05:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

See Indo-European languages and Proto-Indo-European numerals. Words for two through ten are mostly similar throughout the family. —Tamfang 10:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

how do u type this?

I'm trying to put an ene (in spanish, the letter that is an n with the ~ on top)letter on my laptop in ms word, just the lower case one. Can somebody help me?

Ctrl+Shift+~ (tilde key) then press n, and you should have ñ. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 20:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

thanx a lot. wikipedia has saved me so many times!

You can also use Alt+0241.--El aprendelenguas 00:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, ALT+264 (carlrichard) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.5.86.109 (talk) 14:57, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, Spanish-speakers when confined to seven-bit channels seem to use "nn". —Tamfang 10:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Semantics

A few questions for anyone who can weigh in, please. Thanks. (Question 1): What are the subtle nuances in difference (if any) between the words "reply" and "response" ...? Also, consider the following email exchange.

• Email 1 - Ann to Bob: "Hi, Bob. What are the lunch plans for tomorrow?"
• Email 2 - Bob to Ann: "Hi, Ann. Let's meet 12 noon at the pizza place. Does that work for you?"
• Email 3 - Ann to Bob: "Hi, Bob. That's great. I will see you there!"

(Question 2): How would you phrase the following? Email 2 is Bob's (reply / response / what?) to Email 1? and Email 3 is Ann's (reply / response / what?) to Email 2?

The reason I ask is this. If I am Ann, and I am referring to Email 3, I would hate to say "my response to your response" ... or "my reply to your reply". Is there an easier / less cumbersome way to refer to the reply of a reply ... or the response to a response? Many thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro 22:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC))

When in doubt coin a new term, either re-response or re-reply.  :-) --Nricardo 00:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Except those mean something different. If I re-reply to your message, I'm sending my response again because my first attempt didn't work or there's something else I need to add. IMO, there's not much difference between reply and response, though I guess the second sounds a bit more formal. The confusion here is that the second email is not just a response, but a response with a new question attached. So it's 1)salutation, question; 2)salutation, response, new question; 3)salutation, confirmation, exclamation. If I was Ann, I'd just say that Email 3 was my response to Bob's question. Matt Deres 00:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

In this instance, confirmation. Clarityfiend 00:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"Response" is a more general term, referring to whatever the "hearer" does, or however they react, to the "speaker's" words. This may mean a reply back to the speaker, or it may mean them doing/saying something else that doesn't involve the speaker, or both, or nothing (at least nothing external, because there is always at least an internal response to any communication or other incoming sensory signals). In this case, Bob's response to Ann's email happened to be a reply to Ann. Ann's response to Bob's reply was her reply to Bob. Re the "my reply to your reply" question, it would hardly be necessary to go that extreme. If you're replying to a communication, no matter whether it's the original message or one occurring later on in an ongoing dialogue, it's obvious that your reply is to the last message received. So, "My reply is ..." should suffice. But even that would be superfluous in most cases. If you're replying to a message, it's obvious that it is a reply, particularly if you've added it to the original e-mail message, so labelling it as a "reply", "response" or anything else doesn't add any value. -- JackofOz 00:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

August 28

Hindi to English

can hindi translate into english possible —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajendramouny (talk • contribs) 11:31, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to translate from Hindi to English ? Sure. As with any pair of languages, there may be some words in Hindi which don't have a direct English translation, but they can always be translated to a series of words in English. For example, many languages have different words for "male cousin" and "female cousin", but English doesn't (I don't know if Hindi does). So, you would need to translate that single word in those languages into two words in English.

If you are asking about web sites where you can get either a machine translation or request a human translation from Hindi to English, I don't know of any, myself. Perhaps someone else does. StuRat 11:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

English to hindi machine translation exists, hindi to english seems to be in the experimental phase - there are plenty of places working on it but I couldn't find a working site.

We also have people such as Category:User hi-3 who speak hindi - many of these speak english as well , I haven't found anyone volunteering to do a translation. I don't know if it's polite to just turn up on someones talk page an request a translation - though we are told to 'be bold'. I can't give any more.87.102.90.8 15:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hang on, here http://www.cfilt.iitb.ac.in/machine-translation/hindi-enco/ we have hindi to UNL - that's a start....87.102.90.8 15:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)(though I couldn't get it to work)

Luggage

In the US "luggage" means containers used to carry clothes, etc., during vacations. I get the impression from the usage of the term at the end of the holdall article that in the UK this term means the clothes, etc., themselves. Is this correct ? StuRat 12:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't have said so. There is perhaps a distinction in that I (personally) would take "luggage" to refer to the container and the contents, rather than just the container. It all gets a bit metaphysical when you consider what you call the contents of your luggage once you remove them from the container - stuff?. However, I think I can safely say that in common usage, "luggage" does not refer only to the contents, but to the sum total. --Worm ^{(t | c)} 12:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have said that "luggage" refers to whatever you are carring around, container or no. Think outside the box 15:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase the question. In the US you can go to a store and "buy luggage", which means empty suitcases, etc. Would you refer to the empty suitcases as luggage in the UK ? Also, if I'm wrong, then that statement at the end of holdall about putting luggage inside the holdall means putting a suitcase, etc., in the bag, which seems a rather odd thing to do. StuRat 15:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes (or no) - (UK) Luggage is the suitcase/holdall, it also is the contents, it also refers to many types of transported personal goods.

It may be the container plus the contents.87.102.90.8 15:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"Would you refer to the empty suitcases as luggage in the UK?" That's just the question. I certainly wouldn't, to me it sounds quite wrong, as wrong as putting a van of furniture into my house, rather than a van-load. If I were to put empty suitcases (or trunks) onto the van, they would be simply that, and not luggage. Xn4 05:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I would certainly not call empty suitcases "luggage". In the limit they might be "empty luggage" if you have just taken the stuff out, but "luggage" is stuff that you "lug" around, not the containers that you put it in. Sometimes you see a "luggage department" in a shop, but shop English is different from the language that people use outside the commercial environment. SaundersW 11:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC) (UK: England)

OK, then we do seem to have a diff from US English, where luggage refers to the containers you use to lug things around (either when full or empty), but never the contents alone. StuRat 14:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Are these grammatically correct?

Please tell me if the following sentences are correct:

It is you who are responsible for the action.

It is I who am your friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.5.86.109 (talk) 14:52, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

First one is no - I'd use, "It is you who is responsible for the action,", but I'm not a big fan of that sentence because it sounds fairly awkward. I think who is replaceable by whom, too. Second one is, "It is I who is your friend," but again sounds awkward. Who replaceable by whom, I think, too. x42bn6 Talk Mess 15:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say both sentences are prescriptively correct, if rather stilted, and "whom" would be both prescriptively and descriptively wrong in both. More idiomatic, of course, would be "You are the one who is responsible for the action" and "I am the one who is your friend". —Angr/talk 15:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Angr. The sentences are grammatically correct (if very formal) as written. Marco polo 17:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This is just basic English conjugation. "It is you who is" because "It" is the singular subject, and "is" is the singular conjugation for the third person. "It" is the subject of the second sentence as well. "Who" and "whom" are not interchangeable. "Who" acts as a subject, and "whom" acts as an indirect object. Think "Who are you" and "To whom will you give this". You'll find a preposition sits before "whom". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.58.224.12 (talk) 17:58, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

There's some confusion in the previous comment. The original poster's are and am are the verbs of the relative clause, so their agreement is determined by the subject of the relative clause, not by the subject of the sentence (which is irrelevant). The subject of each relative clause is the pronoun who, and prescriptive grammar (as Angr and Marco Polo have said) requires that a relative pronoun referring to the first or second person agree as if it were a first or second person personal pronoun. In other words, since who refers to I, it takes the same agreement (am). Wareh 18:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The original poster's sentences are correct, but several of the suggested alternatives are wrong. Angr, Marco Polo, and Wareh have it right. --Reuben 18:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This surprised and confused me, but "It's they who are your real friends" sounds right to me. Hmm. Tesseran 19:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hm, I would have thought "who am" would be always wrong except in "who am I" and so on. --Kjoonlee 04:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Angr, Marco Polo, Wareh and Reuben. Both sentences need no red-pencilling, but they both sound stilted. To get nearer to natural English, I might say "The person responsible for the action is you" and "You have a friend. I am your friend." Xn4 05:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"It is I who am your friend" sounds odd, because almost nobody speaks that way. Ergo, it's descriptively ungrammatical. But prescriptively, it's correct. This is because in "It is I who am your friend", "who" refers to "I", and "I" is followed by "am", not "is" or "are". (As in, "I who am nothing, I who have no-one ..."). But compare this with "I am the one who is your friend". Here, "the one" is 3rd person, despite the fact that it refers to "I". Hence, it takes "is". -- JackofOz 05:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I, who am the writer of this sentence, wonder whether any of you object to it. —Tamfang 19:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not I who have any objections to it. -- JackofOz 13:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Automatic Esperanto to English translations?

Is there an automatic Esperanto to English translation service available?

EoGuy 19:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)EoGuyEoGuy 19:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Try http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=esperanto+english+translate&meta= 87.102.18.14 13:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

August 29

Word Category

In which classical word category (preposition, pronoun, conjunction etc.) is the word "as" in "X was very good, as defined by Y"? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.116.228 (talk) 21:35, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

What you're asking about is the part of speech of as in this sentence. The way you've worded it, it's classified as an adverb by the American Heritage Dictionary (sense 3). But I wonder how firmly should we separate this usage from the second conjunction definition, since it can be taken to mean "as it has been defined..." The problem is that as means "in the manner in which," where "in the manner" is adverbial, but "in which" introduces a subordinate clause with a conjunction. It seems to me the AHD adv. 3 definition goes too far in limiting the meaning to "in the [specified] manner"; I think I'd regard it as a conjunction in all these cases, including your sentence. (By the way, some people might take issue with as as a "preposition" in the AHD too.) Wareh 01:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In this kind of case no two grammarians would agree with each other... and there are plenty of cases like this, which makes us think over the very idea of "part of speech", defined so strictly by our high-school teachers, and supposed to pose no ambiguities.--K.C. Tang 02:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It would probably be marked as an adverb, which is usually where the hard-to-categorize words get dumped. Some prefer instead to slap it with three or four different labels; definitions of as seem to appear frequently with "adverb", "conjunction", or "preposition". For a modern linguistic analysis you might try looking in something like the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (which I don't have access to). Strad 05:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

nordic floating s

Is there an official name for that "floating s" that seems to afflict the English of Nordic folks who don't have a firm grasp of the language? "OK Freds, I've gots no times for dats". Gzuckier 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Unfounded stereotype"? Spiro in My Family and Other Animals does that too, and he's not Nordic. —Angr/talk 17:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Maybe it's a more general thing with English spoken by foreigners with limited English? I still can't find anything vaguely relevant via google, searching for all kinds of things. I can't believe some linguistics PhD hasn't done a thesis on it. After all, if you can find articles on Northern cities vowel shift and Canadian raising. Gzuckier 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you even sure this really happens? I like Metalocalypse too, but I've never heard anyone actually talk like Skwisgar. Recury 13:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Swedish/Japanese pidgin or creoles

Hello, does anyone here know of a place to find information on any pidgins/creoles formed from Swedish and Japanese? I'd be very much interested for linguistic reasons, and mostly because those are a couple favorite languages of mine. --69.237.198.63 17:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There is Rinkeby Swedish, which is spoken today. During the 19th century, there was Yokohama Pidgin Japanese, and during the early 20th century, Japanese-based pidgins developed in Manchuria, Taiwan, Micronesia and perhaps other parts of the Japanese empire. These are no longer spoken, except occasionally by elderly people who remember them. Marco polo 18:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Are there any pidgins that arose from the contact of Swedish and Japanese? ;-) —Angr 21:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There have been rumours of Gothenburg Whorehouse Japanese and Osaka Business Swedish, but they rarely meet. Xn4 03:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

August 30

Daffynitions

Normally I understand most Daffynitions quite readily. But, despite the hints presented I'm sorry I haven't a clue about the following listed on that page. Could someone explain them please: baby; garbage. Thanks -- SGBailey 08:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The list includes different types of puns. For most examples, the pun lies in the word itself (dynamite: To take a flea out to dinner. (dine-a-mite)) With baby and garbage the pun is in the definition. Same for hula dance: Wild waist show. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. That still doesn't explain them (and I know that analysing these things stops any semblance of humour existing...).

• "Baby - a very young child" What does that have to do with "wet" and What with "newly-weds". If the answer to the latter is nine months after the honeymoon then fine but not funny. But why Wet?
• "Garbage - unwanted items being disposed of" If the unwanted items are food then they may well smell. But I don't see a direct link and have no idea what the backards is about. -- SGBailey 08:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

ok, here's my lame attempt: The newly-wed/newly-wet evokes associations such as the one you mentioned, and a baby is pretty wet when newly born. The garbage definition, "Eatables smelled backwards", refers to funny definitions such as "stressed is desserts spelled backwards", and the stench of course, as identified by you. Maybe they were lame to begin with, and, again as you already pointed out, dissecting doesn't make them less lame. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks -- SGBailey 09:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much that it's wet when it's newly-born, but, as any parent would confirm, you change their nappy (diaper) for the twentieth time today, and a second later it's wet again (or worse) - ie. newly wet. -- JackofOz 01:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Another one. Why would oboe be an English tramp? Surely French would make more sense? Skittle 20:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Because in various English dialects such as Cockney, they tend to drop the "h" at the start of words like house, here, hobo, and, of course, "'allo, 'allo, 'allo, what's all this then?". -- JackofOz 01:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so a cockney tramp. I was trying to picture the standard American stereotype of an English person, but I couldn't make it fit. Thanks Jack :P Skittle 12:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Btw, I'd be interested to know what that standard American stereotype of an English person is (at least as far as you understand it). -- JackofOz 04:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

D HARTE BOI!

What is this charming fellow getting at? What does "D HARTE BOI!" mean?? What language is it? I sure hope it isn't rude! Capuchin 10:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be a Denglisch use of the gay slang term boi. Or maybe the author is ignorant of the gay slang but knows the word "boy" from English-language pop music. In this context, "hart" is likely to mean something like English "rough" or "tough". In other words, something like "the rough boi". Maybe this is the author's nickname for himself. Marco polo 13:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

After you saying that it might be gay slang, It's occured to me that he might be another one of those rowdy friends of homosexuals, wishing to proclaim how much D "hearts" boys. Cute. Capuchin 14:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to see how "HARTE" could be a verb meaning "to heart". "Hart" is the Dutch spelling of English "heart", but, assuming that the writer has invented a Dutch verb "harten" (meaning "to heart"), the 3rd person singular form of that verb would "hart", not "harte". This is why I think it is more likely to be an inflected form of the German adjective "hart" (meaning "hard, rough, or tough"). Marco polo 16:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It could also be a fanciful spelling of "The Hardy Boy". —Angr 16:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Marco, my hypothesis rests on the assumption that the person is not familiar with english but trying his very best. Capuchin 07:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"To be lame" meaning

What does the expression "to be lame" (apart from lacking one leg) mean in English? People use it as implying low quality or something similar, but I don't get the exact meaning. --Taraborn 11:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Weak and ineffectual; unsatisfactory", "lacking needful or desirable substance" or "not being in the know", "(especially of an excuse or argument) weak and unsatisfactory". The first time I used it in the thread above, I was referring to my unsatisfactory and likely ineffectual attempt at explaining a pun, which, as I suggested further down, might have been lame in the first place. A lame joke or a lame pun is a joke that is ineffectual; though it might elicit a groan, it won't make you laugh, even if you fully understand it. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The literal meaning of lame applied to a body part is: being non-functional, and applied to a person: having some lame body part(s) – especially the legs, and thus being incapable of normal locomotion. There is no specific connotation of the afflicted body parts having gone missing.  --Lambiam 15:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much to both. I thought that it meant both lacking a leg or having a non-functional one because in Spanish the word "cojo" means both and people use the same word for those who lack a leg and those who have a non-functional one. --Taraborn 16:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much a non-functional leg as a poorly functioning one. For example, if you had an injury that kept your knee stiff, you would be lame. Similarly with jokes. You can tell what the joke is trying to do, and it might be just a little funny, but not really funny. --Anonymous, 22:45 UTC, August 30, 2007.

Also it can be used for animals,particularly the horse.hotclaws 11:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

More of a youth slang meaning of the word is "uncool" as in "dude, that game is sooooo lame". StuRat 23:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to you two. By the way, I think you Anonymous should register, you've been here for a while now :) --Taraborn 11:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Translations

I need translations of the following words:- Paper Presentation Education status of...(a country) Globalisation Developing...(a country) Reservations(social/economical/religious/caste based) Celebrity-...(a question) Agriculture Risk/ management Political chaos in...(a country) (a city)-A hub for bomb-blast/terrorist/extremism Nuclear deal Current issues/General topics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.98.179 (talk) 13:16, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Are we meant to be able to guess the language that you want them translated into? Since this is the languages desk on the English wikipedia, I would presume you want them translated into English, but they already seem to be in English. Am I missing something here? Capuchin 13:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Going by the IP, the OP is in India, which gives us a few hundred possibilities... Algebraist 19:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

torinese/torinesi

In the Wikipedia article "breadstick," the breadstick grissino torinese appears grissino torinesi. Is this an error, or are both the singular and plural forms used? 69.201.141.45 16:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

It looks to me like an error, as the plural would be grissini torinesi. Marco polo 18:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Internet"

My spell-checkers insist that the word Internet be capitalized. Who decided that the word warranted being capitalized? 69.201.141.45 17:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

It's a proper noun. There's only one of it (despite what GWB might think). --Nricardo 18:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This varies according to the style books of individual publishers and publications. In the past, there has been a tendency to capitalize "internet", as if it were a name. However, there has been a trend in recent years (still a minority trend) to lower-case it. This makes more sense to me personally, because I see the internet as a medium or technology like television or "the press". Also, the names of unique referents are not necessarily proper nouns. For example, "sun" is usually lower-case, as is something like "world trade" or, for that matter, "cyberspace". Proper nouns, in my view, should be reserved for the names of persons or of entities with a distinct and singular, recognizable identity. The internet is neither, in my view. However, you should conform to your publisher's style guide. Marco polo 18:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In a context like "the last rays of the sun" lower case is more common, but in a context like "the planets revolve around the Sun", where the Sun is viewed as a physical object rather than a light source, upper case is more common. In general, the rule "there's only one" does not work; conventionally we have the upper-case North Pole and the lower-case equator. But historically and conventionally it has been "Internet" when referring to the Internet, and that is what most style guides recommend. Some people argue that it "should" be "internet", but I do not buy such arguments for the a priori reason that right or wrong is a matter of somewhat arbitrary convention in such cases, not of logical argument. See also Internet capitalization conventions.  --Lambiam 21:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Confusion arises with blurring of the distinction between "the Internet" and "an internet". The latter is a network which interconnects a group of devices; the former being an example of this. The rules used to transmit information between such devices are "the internet protocol", or IP. Bazza 11:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've always thought it should be lower case, too. The argument that "there's only one" to me would only work if "there could only ever be one". However, I see no reason why China can't create their own internet, if they give up on censoring the current version. Similarly, when there was only one passenger pigeon left, there was no reason to then call it "the Passenger Pigeon". StuRat 23:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

To clarify (not entirely sure about the details - I'm no expert): A network connects different computers, such as in an intranet (eg in an office). For this one can have different protocols (languages). To connect networks that use different protocols, one needs another protocol, a lingua franca, that allows them to each other. There can be several such internet protocols, but one of them, IP (the Internet Protocol - therefore capitalised?), has become the worldwide standard (largely because it is free). This is what is called the Internet (capitalised). Of course, one can also distinguishing it from the other internets (or rather internet protocols) by the fact that it is called the Internet, so that is no reason to capitalise it. Still, I usually do. Funny, btw, my spell checker marks the plural 'internets' as wrong. I disagree. Then again, it also marks my English English as wrong, so it's a crappy spell checker. :) DirkvdM 18:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

An interesting comparison is the White House. There are many white houses, but there is only one White House. If you don't count Casablanca, that is. :) DirkvdM 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

A more relevant comparison would be the telephone, which used to be the Telephone. --Kjoonlee 19:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That's odd. Did people use the word 'Telephone' for the connections in stead of the device one has at home? Or rather the whole international system of connections, even before they were interconnected? Because that's the reason for capitalising 'Internet' - there is (and can be) only one of it. Doesn't sound likely that people viewed the telephone system like that, so there must be a different reason then. DirkvdM 06:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, when telephones started getting installed, they weren't interconnected. For a glimpse into the early history of the telephone, The Hacker Crackdown might be helpful. (It doesn't mention anything about capitalization, though.) --Kjoonlee 07:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The space between

When the "o" of Santo is dropped as in Sant' Angelo and Sant' Ambrogio, I find some writers place a space after the apostrophe and others don't. Is one form older? 69.201.141.45 18:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Without a space is standard and has been in use for a long time (1715 example), though typography is never perfectly consistent (both ways on this 1768 page, compare A, B, C, D). Both usages have a pretty good pedigree; here are three 16th century books that all seem never to use a space, so that has my vote for older & better practice: 1, 2, 3 (let me know if you find an exception). It may help to think about the list of words that elide in Italian. Most are little function words like di, la, ci, ne. I'm sure these would look odd to you if given a space after elision. There are relatively few more significant words (santo, come, senza) that elide. Thus, in my opinion (though I'm not sure whether you're asking because you're looking for a policy to follow yourself) one should probably at least be consistent. Wareh 18:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.69.201.141.45 15:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Puzzle

I want to see if peoples brains here work well with logic as well as facts and resource.

ABCDEFG HIJKLMNO PQRSTUVWXYZ

Rearrange these to make a 5 letter word, using all the letters, or perhaps those singled out, you decide. I`m such a git. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.178.100 (talk) 19:24, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I won't post the answer to spoil it for others - but it's not exactly a new puzzle ;) Worm ^{(t | c)} 19:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All I can think of is that the middle section, H to O, sounds like H2O, which is water. Is that it? Trouble is, why the word 'rearrange'? Xn4 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It certainly looks like a mucked-up version of that puzzle. 86.144.144.222 20:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I give up - please give the answer213.249.232.202 06:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Haha, after a little bit of thinking I got it. Remember, ambiguity is a neat trick for puzzles! -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 11:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hint 0: The puzzle is not formulated very well. It should have been something like: "ABCDEFG HIJKLMNO PQRSTUVWXYZ: which five-letter word is hiding in here?". Hint 1: the (presumed!) solution of this puzzle is a five-letter word occurring in the above responses. Hint 2: it is not any of spoil, think, which, and looks.  --Lambiam 11:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Still screwed, more clues please.87.102.88.202 13:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I found this. But don't click it if you don't want a spoiler and answer.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's not worded very well, as the original says to make a five letter word using all the letters (i.e. 26), which would be impossible even if 21 of them were silent.--Manga 16:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My answer: "these" -> "sheet". Clarityfiend 22:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That is the exact same thing that I thought of. The phrasing of "Rearrange these..." made me think the alphabet was just a diversion.-Andrew c ^[talk] 23:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the key phrase is or perhaps those singled out, which are H to O. But if the wet solution is the intended one, Rearrange is definitely misleading.  --Lambiam 08:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Clarity, that's what I got as well. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 09:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually having read the spoiler above I came up with "A to Z" which can be a "guide" or "atlas"?87.102.87.15 11:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The word exercise

I need the word "exercise" translated into the following languages-French, Spanish, German, Italian, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, Kenyan, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.28.218 (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is (I suspect) going to depend on what exercise you mean: there's a big difference between jogging once a day and doing a homework exercise or exercising an option. Assuming you mean physical exercise, and given that I speak only English, the interwikis from our article point to de:Training (Sport) for German, and es:Ejercicio físico for Spanish. Algebraist 23:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't use Training for sport in general in German. I'd use Bewegung or Sport itself. —Angr 04:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Kenyan" language. Perhaps you mean Swahili? -Elmer Clark 04:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Physical exercise is "undoo" (or "undou", depending on your romanization of 運動), with "to do exercise" as "undou o shimasu", in Japanese. And no, it's not pronounced "undo" like the Ctrl-Z function but "uun-doe"! -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 11:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We still have no disambiguation. We don't even know whether this is a noun or a verb. Unless the questioner supplies more information, ideally a full sentence containing the word "exercise" in the intended context and meaning, these responses are possibly pointless.  --Lambiam 11:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

August 31

Hello Africa, tell me how you doing?

It appears to me that this is a fairly well known phrase. However I seem to be out of luck when it comes to sorting out the origins of the phrase. Any ideas? --GSchjetne 12:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard it. It's not even grammatical English. - Paul D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.29.16.127 (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's just lyrics from the title track on this album. Never heard it before, but that's what Google says. Recury 13:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

German to English

I have some postcards wrote in German and I need help to translate them to english —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.60.119 (talk) 17:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If you post them here then someone can translate them. Strad 18:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Language identification (Russian or Latin?)

Howdy! I'm in the middle of knocking up an article on Diageo's latest Smirnoff advertising campaign. The television/cinema commercial uses an original song created by Peter Raeburn, but the online sources seem to disagree over whether the lyrics are in Russian or Latin. Since I've no knowledge of either, I figured I'd come here for a quick judgement on which of the two it is, or whether it's a third or even completely fictitious language. I figure Russian is the more likely of the two, given the advert is promoting vodka, but it never hurts to double check :)

The spot can be seen here, among many other places. I'm not looking for a full translation (though it might be interesting just for curiosity's sake), just an identification. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

not Russian. Possibly Latin, although I can't catch any words. dab (𒁳) 20:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like Latin to me too. I think I can hear some words like purus and mare that make sense in the context. —Keenan Pepper 02:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ta muchly :) Apropos of nothing, the tiny lo-fi versions around the internet really don't do that advert justice. It's spectacular at the cinema. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Russian Song

Can anyone translate the name of the song 'Полюшка Поле'? Plus, does anyone know who it's by? Cheers!--Manga 23:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia article: Polyushko Pole. Alternative Russian-English edition. Wareh 02:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

September 1

Translation of comment required

שלום

שלום קוראים לי מתן ואני מישראל, אני מזמין אותך לבוא למדינה שלי, תתרגם את זה גם עם מיליון בבילונים מצחיקים. המדינה שלי היא הכי הכי הכי יפה בעולם כולו, וזה לא משנה מה שאומרים לך. תבוא יהיה סבבה אצלנו, באמת. יאללה אוהב אותכם כולכולכם שבוע טוב ומבורך!!!!ישראלי כוסון 23:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC) [1]

Please leave the translation on my talk page as well please Y4kk 00:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hello. They call me Matan and I'm from Israel. I'm inviting you to come to my country. You will translate this with a dictionary with billions of laughs. My country is the most most most beautiful in the whole world, though this does not change that they tell you. Come, it'll be awesome here with us, really. C'mon, I love you guys, all all of you, have a good and blessed week!!! ". It's then signed "Israeli Hunk". I have a feeling this is spam... Macnas 16:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Buffalo Stance

What is a buffalo stance? Seems to be some idiomatic expression, though it's not in any of my dictionaries. --84.191.213.113 15:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's a New York Times article T Style Magazine article from last March, that explains the word borrowing in Neneh Cherry's own words. It's an allusion to Ray Petri's fashion company "Buffalo", named after Air Force Ma-1 jackets worn by Guadeloupian bouncers or private security guards with "Buffalo" written on them, and also a reference to Buffalo Soldier. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Swiss German Expression?

I grew up in a small southern town that had been settled by Swiss-Germans (Orangeburg, SC). The earliest town-records, The Giesendaner (spelling?) Records were kept by a Swiss protestant preacher. At play, the boys (circa 1953) would exclaim "geh-hey man" when excited by a race or action on the movie-screen. This quickly disappeared as television made inroads and we went to school. I doubt if any of my classmates would recall the expression. Although my grandfather was a well-educated M.D., he had built his huge house in a white working-class neighborhood. This is where I mostly heard it. Do the Swiss Germans have such an expression? The "geh-heh" does sound like a form of gehen.69.201.141.45 16:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

The Giezendanners originated from the Toggenburg (most Swiss emigrants to the Americas came from rural areas), but I cannot figure out what "geh-hey man" could mean in Toggenburger dialect, or any other Swiss German dialect for that matter. "Gang hei", pronounced something like "gong hi" would mean "go home!", in some dialects it would be pronounced "gong hay". But "geh!" as an imperative of "gehen" isn't used in any Swiss dialect, as far as I can think. Puzzled and stumped, sorry. (The article on Orangeburg, South Carolina says a colony of Swiss, German and Dutch immigrants was formed in 1735. So I guess we'd need to consider older German and Dutch dialects as well.) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I've come across "geh hei!" for gehe Heim! (go home!) Xn4 00:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, omitting the e and saying geh heim is standard German, and the pronunciation of geh heim man is indistinguishable from geh hei man.  --Lambiam 07:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

consultation on stress on word Chinese

My intuition tells me that the word in English Chinese has all mathematically possible stress patterns available depending on perhaps dialect and style, ,although I think (a) may be rare and perhaps (d) nonexistent. Anyone with deeper knowledge of phonetics wanna contribute before I tell my students about this?

(a), stress on the penult, (b) stress on both with primary on the penult, (c) stress on both with stress on the ult, and (d) stress on the ult:

(a) [ˡtʃaɪ niz] (b) [ˡtʃaɪ ˌniz] (c) [ˌtʃaɪ ˡniz] (d) [tʃaɪ ˡniz] mnewmanqc 21:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

If it means anything, both Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com [3] approve of (d), and they also include the pronunciation [tʃaɪ ˡnis].--El aprendelenguas 03:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is meaningful to assign secondary stress in a stand-alone two-syllable word. I'd say that (d) is the standard stress pattern, while many multi-syllabic words will occasionally be realized with a stress pattern other than the standard one; I don't think the word Chinese is particularly special in this respect. Among the mathematically possible patterns you omitted [ˡtʃaɪ ˡniz] and [tʃaɪ niz].  --Lambiam 07:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

word-to-morpheme ratio

okay, so if a language has a word-to-morpheme ratio of, like, 1-10 its polysynthetic. 1-5 is synthetic. 1-1 is analytical. (the ratios are hypothetical) anyway my question is could there (in theory) be a language with a word-to-morpheme ratio of 2-1? Is there a linguistic definition of word? Idon'texist 02:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Our Word article gives the following definition:

A word is a unit of language that carries meaning and consists of one or more morphemes which are linked more or less tightly together, and has a phonetical value.

(my emphasis) According to this definition, the word-to-morpheme ratio is at most 1 to 1.  --Lambiam 07:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Help contacting a person whose web site is in Chinese

I'm trying to fix a device and I have found the instructions to fix it in on a chinese page. After using a free web translation service, I managed to follow the instructions, although I would like to ask the author where I can get a firmware that I could use. Doing further search, I believe he is the icam forum user on this page, but I do not know how to navigate through that page, since it is in Chinese, to send him a private message or send him an email. Can anyone help?