Talk:Voiceless palatal plosive

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disputed

That doesn't sound like a c. lysdexia 13:53, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The sound is a recording made by Peter Ladefoged, one of the foremost experts on phonetics in the entire world. It's a [c]. Nohat 20:08, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Hungarian is one of the few languages with true palatal plosives" ??? And what about Slavic languages? In Czech and Slovak "ť" is used to represent [c] (and ď to represent [ɟ]) and in Slovak "ti", "te" are also pronounced palatalized ([ci], [ce]). In Russian and Ukrainian (and probably Belarusian) [c] is pronounced to read "ть", "те" ("тэ" in Ukrainian), "тё", "ти" ("тї", "ті" in Ukrainian), "тя", "тю" (and "дь",... is for [ɟ]). It's not used in Polish, I can't say about the the Southern Slavic languages (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bulgarian,…), although the article on Serbian language suggests the sound is used there too. — Ján Kľuka, 2005-09-08T12:02+0200

Yes, palatalized, not palatal. I believe all the sounds you've indicated are [tʲ, dʲ], not [c, ɟ]. If the sounds involve the flexible front of the tongue, as t, d, s, z, ch, sh do, then they're coronal. Palatal consonants are pronounced with the body of the tongue, as k, g, x are (though further forward than those).

Quite a few languages are described with the symbols <c, ɟ>, but that doesn't mean that the sounds are actually palatals. The symbols are also commonly used for the sounds of English ch and j. kwami 11:16, 2005 September 8 (UTC)

While the recordings are in fact correct, I doubt that this is the same sound represented by the soft variants of t in some Slavic languages and Hungarian, as I read in many articles here. Isn't that a [t]-sound articulated with the tongue touching the palate? The tongue doesn't make contact with the upper-teeth while pronouncing [c]. I have always thought of this sound as a strong palatalization of [k]. That is, while [kʲ] still remains velar, articulated a bit more forward than [k], [c] is fully palatal. For instance, in Turkish it is the variant of the phoneme /k/ with front wovels following, with both acting mostly as allophones of each other. Ditto for [g], [gʲ] and [ɟ]. I am confused about this matter in other languages mentioned above and hope that someone clears it up, preferably by giving some sound samples. --Pipifax 16:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have sound samples, and I'm not sure I understand the question (or if you're even asking a question), but I'll try to answer.

Correct, this is not the sound heard in Slavic. It is heard in Hungarian, but only in formal or deliberate speech. Ladefoged has some quite convincing illustrations of Hungarian [c] that show that it's its own separate articulation. [kʲ] is not (necessarily) further forward than [k]; a forward [k] would be [k̟] or [c]. Rather, it is pronounced as [k] with a secondary raising of the tongue in the area of [c]. [c] does sound a lot like a strong palatalization of [k], but it doesn't have a glide to it the way [kʲ] does. As for [tʲ], the tongue does not touch the palate; the middle of the tongue is only raised towards the palate while the tip of the tongue touches the teeth/alveolar ridge. kwami 19:42, 2005 September 8 (UTC)

sound sample looks wrong

sound says something like "ja, aja" (like y in yes), is it right? --Monkbel 10:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think you might've downloaded a wrong sample. :) This one in the article is definitely not the English y in yes.

If you are certain that you've downloaded the good sample than the only thing I can imagine is that you might not notice the difference because you're not used to this sound (as it never occurs in your own language). I have the same problem with the English [ð] of "than". I cannot distinguish it from a [d] sound (as in Dan/iel/), because I only hear it when I listen to native English speakers. And that doesn't happen too often. --194.152.154.1 03:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ć or c

Is this sound similar to Serbo-Croatian c or ć? --Djordje D. Bozovic 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see, it is ć after all. --Djordje D. Bozovic 22:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. "Ćć" is this.

I just wanted to know is voiceless palatal plosive similar to Serbian ć, or to Serbian c. I know what Serbian ć actually is. :) --Djordje D. Bozovic 20:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish

Isn't Spanish ch a voiceless postalveolar affricate?

yes.Cameron Nedland 14:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Easiest example of Icelandic: The capital!

Yup. FWIW, the kj in Reykjavík is pronounced with a true [c]. -andy 91.32.75.66 09:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about Romanian?

I do not speak this language, but I do have a vague thought that they have a similar or the same sound in their language. So have they? -andy 91.32.75.66 09:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vietnamese

Vietnamese phonology says:

/c, ɲ/ are phonetically palatoalveolar [ṯ, ṉ] (i.e. the blade of the tongue makes contact behind the alveolar ridge).
/c/ is often slightly affricated [ṯʃ], although much less than English [tʃʰ]. (Note that the English affricate is also aspirated and usually apical, unlike Vietnamese). This affrication, however, is not obligatory.

So, I've deleted mention about Vietnamese in the article. --Koryakov Yuri 18:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The examples

I think most of them are wrong.

Many of the examples describe the Romance /k/, a fronted velar ("palatovelar"?) plosive. That is [k̟], not [c]. [c] sounds similar to [tʲ], not to [kʲ]. As in all dorsopalatal consonants, the tongue bends into a ⋂ shape, with the tip touching the alveolar ridge of the lower jaw.

Others probably describe [tʲ], though the difference between [c] and [tʲ] is a rather small matter of degree.

AFAIK the Albanian q, gj are [kʲ], [gʲ] in the south and [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] in the north – the same what happens to the letters ќ and ѓ in the neighboring Macedonian language. Sure, one can expect [c ɟ] as historical intermediates between the palatalized velar stops and the alveolopalatal ( = palatalized palatoalveolar) affricates, and maybe these pronunciations actually occur somewhere in central Albania, but I'd like to see some evidence for this.

Most Australian languages have "laminopalatal" (postalveolar?) plosives; the tj in the last example is such a thing. Dorsopalatal plosives, or even nasals, apparently don't occur anywhere in Australia (not even in Yanyuwa which has plosives and nasals at seven contrasting places of articulation). David Marjanović 11:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All examples I have added are from academic sources. I could actually list every source, but that would be tedious for language examples. Albanian does have palatal stops and the your statement about the north/south distinction is not accurate. In any event, the Albanian example is for standard Albanian. For a more obscure language, the Tadaksahak is from here: http://www.sil.org/silesr/1999/008/nsonghay.pdf and the transcription includes the palatal stop. I cannot vouch for Greek having palatal stops though... Azalea pomp 17:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kiedy? Nigdy! (pol. "When? Never!")

I took the liberty of removing the alleged Polish example from the table. I've never heard "kie-" pronounced with an IPA [c], and I've been using the language for forty years now. The word in question is pronounced with a [kʲ] instead. By the way, the meaning of the word is 'when' rather than 'and', which further makes me think that the example was probably a misunderstanding. Regards -- Bmucha