Talk:John von Neumann/Archive 1

Childhood

The information given about von Neumann's childhood seems anecdotal and probably exaggerated. For instance, the claim that he brought two books to the bathroom in case he would finish one seems like either a joke or more of a statement about how long he took to shit... he wasn't a speed reader, after all. Does anyone have sources for the claims made in this section? (Like that he learned analysis at age 8 and was doing graduate level work at age 12.)

I'm not sure about what exactly a "von Neumann Machine" is, officially. I've found some websites which describe it as a type of computer architecture (eg [[1]] and [[2]]), and I've found others which describe it as a conceptual self-replicating machine (eg, [[3]], [[4]]) Perhaps this is a case where von Neumann came up with two separate ideas and people took to calling them by the same name? -BD

If a person likes to read while in the bathroom, and that person is almost finished with a book, then that person will bring a second book. After finishing the first book, the second book can be started. Is this so strange?Lestrade 17:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

The main characteristic of a von Neumann machine is that its operations occur in a strict series. Only one operation is performed at a time. There are no parallel operations occurring. This can be detrimental if there is a problem with the active operation. When such a problem occurs, then the machine ceases to function altogether.Lestrade 17:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

I knew the term only in the first meaning, but looking through a Google search, it seems that a sizeable minority of writers also use it in the second meaning. Maybe this second group is confused, but I'm not sure. --AxelBoldt

If its alright with you guys I'll clear up some misconceptions about Neumann's Computer, while I am no expert in his field I have learned a few from my father and grandfather. My grandfather worked closely with Neumann on the Manhattan project and was given one of a dozen first print Computer in the Brain (not the ones you see for sale that where filtered by gov.). The Neumann computer was not just a replicating computer, it was a supposed design for a thinking computer (we all think of them as AI's, but Neumann's was apparently ifinitly more complex). Apparently most of the copies have been lost to time, my families however was stolen shortly before my grandfather's death (a long twenty something years of suffering through the effects of the radiation.) Your personal computer is also considered a Neumann computer although it is not in the true sense of the idea, its operation is based on Neumann's proprosal.

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It is claimed that Johnny could by age six, divide two 8 digit numbers in his head, but this is contradicted by his close friend Eugene Wigner, who says that Johnny Von Neumann wasn't so good at arithmetic. See the very last paragraph of | Interview with Eugene Wigner

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Yes, I believe the term is being used to describe two different contributions by von Neumann, one in computer architecture and the other in automata theory.

Isn't the concept in computer architecture the Von Neuman Architecture, while the Automaton is the Von Neuman Machine? (That would make a machien based on the VNA a Von Neuman machine (note capitalisation), I guess.)

Should we note (the claim) that the VNA was merely publicized by VN, but was developed by people from the Moore group? (Aliter)

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I thought there were initially five faculty in the Institute of Advanced Study, not four. viz., Einstein, Von Neumann, Weyl, Veblen, and Alexander. --Dominus 04:56 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

See John L. Casti's book, The One True Platonic Heaven for a list of those first appointments. John von Neumann was the first tenured appointment to the IAS.William R. Buckley 20:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

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Richard Rhodes, in "Dark Sun," said JvN died of brain cancer. It's very sad, if true.

This too is discussed in the Macrae biography. William R. Buckley 07:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it was bone cancer, that likely began in the clavical. At some point, I will obtain the specific text from Macrae's biography, and post the relevant details. No, there will be no direct copying, so no copyright infringement.William R. Buckley 20:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

His death can actually be attributed too a car accident during his last session of lectures before his death, the name of the university escapes me but I remember there was a article about the acccident. His weakened state after the accident led to his quick death from cancer.

I've never heard that. But if you can cite a credible source, it should be added.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry

"Max Neumann, born 1870, arrived in Budapest in the late 1880s" [5]. So where's Max born? Austria? --Menchi 03:11, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Max is described as a Hungarian Jew, I believe. From the top of my head, I can't say whether A-H at that time was already a double monarchy, but in any case we could indicate the area as Hungaria. Aliter 03:51, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why should you use your brain when you have Wikipedia? But, anyway, he was born in the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy; if you tell me the city he was born, I tell you which part it was. And anyway his name was Neumann Miksa originally (in Hungarian), and Kann Margit was his wife. --grin 10:37, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is known to contain incorrect information. Miksa was the father of Janos. The birthplace of Janos is given in the Macrae biography. William R. Buckley 07:53, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Why? Because my memory is large enough to not need swapping out when browsing in lots of windows at the same time. Nevertheless, the above was written on a rather narrow time-slice.

But on the subject of Miksa: As Hungaria was somewhat sovereign in 1870, a Hungarian jew would stem from Hungaria, not Austra. The problem with the place of birth is that all J.Neumann bibliographies start with Max arriving in Budapest. Before that all I know is that he attended a "Catholic provincial high school", and the year of his birth.

What is curious is that http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/utcah/00204/00204b.html which is the John Von Neumann collection], in the Center for American History (U of texas), apparently has a picture of Miksa's tombstone, and because of that(?) gives 1873 as year of birth. Either the year is not very readable on the picture, or Miksa already had that concept of a personal truth that is so apparent in his son's character.

I'm beginning to wonder about Max. Arrived in Budapest as a youngster from somewhere else, with as most noted skill a fluency in German. Is Jewish, which allows him access to the banking circles, but doesn't actually practice the faith. Lies about his age to be concidered old enough to be independent/accepted? Might all be very innocent and explanable, and yet ... . (I wonder how common the name Neumann was in Hungaria in around 1890.) Aliter 15:38, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In the Vietnamese wiki the same this page (http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann). They translated like this: John von Neumann (Neumann János; 28 tháng 12, 1903 – 8 tháng 2, 1957) là một nhà toán học người Hungary . That means he is a Hungarian mathematician (I think they hate the US :-)) Also the Nationality they make him a dual-nationalities: US-Hungary. So either English page or Vietnamese page is wrong. I have posted my discussion there but it seems no one cares. Please check it. Thank you

Names

Why is Neumann's birth name listed as Neumann János Lajos Margittai? And his parents as Neumann Miksa and Kann Margit? I've never heard that Hungarians place the family name before the personal name.

Hungarians always place the family name first: in his native land, the composer of Mikrokosmos was called "Bartók Béla" (not the other way around) and there is a street in Budapest named that after him. I think that Margittai is an Hungarian semi-noble title incorporated into the family's name, like Freiherr in German names. It means "of Margit" but I don't know if that has anything to do with anything. I think that Margit is an island in the Danube but I dunno if that's related. Phr 01:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

And Margittai is definitely wrong as being part of his birthname. It was added to the family's name in 1913 as part of the ennoblement. MK2 23:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

János is the Hungarian equivalent of John and it is his original given name. Hungarians have always placed their family names first. Same as to the original name of Wolfgang Kempelen, creator of the chess automaton, whose original Hungarian name is Kempelen Farkas, in this order.

American Stamp

Gave a quick cursory look at the article, but I saw no mention of the commemorative stamp issued May 2005 by the United States Postal Service. The Feynman article has already been updated with that information.

http://shop.usps.com/cgi-bin/vsbv/postal_store_non_ssl/display_products/productDetail.jsp?OID=4849367 File:John von Neumann.JPG *This is the stamp to be added to the article--nixie 03:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I've added a section and the image to the article. Can you upload the other stamps, so we can add them to the other articles? Paul August ☎ 21:03, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

background

does anyone else find "Hungarian-American-German-Jewish" a little excessive ?

haha, I noticed that too, I was just about to post the same thing. Although I think we should keep it as he was infact Hungarian, Jewish, German and American.

I have to question the description of how von Neumann died (of cancer). As a mathematician, I have many, many times heard that he died in, or as a result of, an automobile accident. I have even heard details of the supposed accident. At this instant I don't have a reference. But can someone point me to a reference that says he died of cancer? (Perhaps he *had* cancer, but still died in an accident?) Daqu 22:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

See the notes at the top of this page for starters. Other presumably-reputable sources are easy to find on the net, like [his bio at the National Academy of Science] which says "In 1955 he was named a Commissioner of the Atomic Energy Commission, a position he held up to his death from cancer in 1957.". RossPatterson 22:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

order of names

This article uses a confusing mixture of order of names. Sometimes the given name is first sometimes the surname. This is very confusing. --MarSch 3 July 2005 16:07 (UTC)

Well I think "Neumann János" is the normal Hungarian order, but I've changed it to "János Neumann", since this is normal order in English. I think I've fixed all the inconsistencies. Did I miss any? Paul August ☎ 02:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

VON Neumann?!?

Hi!

I am amazed at this "von" thing... his NAME is Neumann János, a hungarian name. As far as I am concerned, he was many times quoted with "von", but that was actually a MISTAKE, since his name resembles that of the German names, though he himself is hungarian. So... I am well aware, that all around the world his name is meant to be with "von", but I have been thought in school that that is a mistake that everyone makes. So who is making the mistake? -The problem with the argument that I am putting forward, is that it is hard to dispute, since no matter how many books you list that name him with "von" in the middle, that might only be an error. The way to defeat my argument is to show an example where Neumann actually singned his name with "von" in the middle. I would be amazed, if you found that...

PS: I am not changing the naming in the article(though I would happily do that), since I am sure most of you are absolutely sure that he is named with "von" in the middle. I sincerely think that all of you are wrong.

--Msoos 13:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

He used the name "von Neumann" himself. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Von_Neumann.html or any of the books that he wrote, like Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics (ISBN 3-540-59207-5, ISBN 0-691-08003-8, ISBN 0-691-02893-1). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention his joint work with F. Murray on algebras of operators (now called von Neuman Algebras).--CSTAR 15:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

PS I wonder if Msoos isn't thinking of Carl Neumann.--CSTAR 15:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am quite certain, and in the United States he sometimes used John Von Neumann with a capital V. But see his publisher's listing http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/i7802.html. Septentrionalis 22:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Msoos is also forgetting that in 1903 much of Budapest was bilingual.... Septentrionalis 01:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

His authority file at the Library of Congress knows the following forms of his name:

• Johann von Neumann (on Mathematische Grundlagen der Quantenmechanik, 1932)
• Dzh. (Dzhon) Fon Neiman - the romanized form of what appeared on Teoriia igr i ekonomicheskoe povedenie (also romanized), 1970
• János Neumann
• John von Neumann

--Hoziron 02:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Not only is "von Neumann" correct as his name for the reason given above, but also the proper indexing under categories would be under "V" rather than under "N" (most categories do not and should not separate uppercase from lowercase, so the "v" or "V" question is irrelevant to this indexing). Gene Nygaard 13:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Where would you alphabetize Friedrich von Schiller? Septentrionalis 16:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Under Shiller, the name normally used when referred to by surname. Of course, his name wasn't an American name; that's the most significant difference. Gene Nygaard 16:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Just as E. I. du Pont is indexed under "D" and included in Category:DuPont. Gene Nygaard 16:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

In the United States, we don't have titles of nobility and the like. So there really is an "American name" distinction. You can choose to include things like "von" in your surname or not, but if you do include it, it is part of your name, and that's the way you are going to be listed in the phone book and everywhere else where listings are made alphabetically. Gene Nygaard 16:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It would perhaps help if those posting knew the origin of the name "von Neumann" and that information is available, from a number of sources. First, Jansci's (his nickname, as given by his family) father purchased the title "von" as was the custom of the day. That the construction is as would be the case for a German junker in no way implies that Jansci was German. Further, the "von" is properly spelled with a lower case "v" and the construction of Neumann Janos is the typical form for Hungarians, of surname followed by given name (last name, then first name), not unlike the construction of Chinese names; hence, Mao Zedong is, in the western world, Zedong Mao (see the Wikipedia page on Mao). A very good biography of von Neumann is that written by Norm Macrae, and I recommend it to all who have posted to this discussion page. William R. Buckley 07:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I personally thought the Macrae biography was terrible and that von Neumann gets a much better treatment (though less detailed) in H. H. Goldstine's The Computer from Pascal to von Neumann. Note Goldstine was a close associate of JvN. Phr 23:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It may be a note of self-serving nature but, I have received email from the son of Macrae, and he reports that the survivors of John von Neumann are quite happy with the Macrae biography. I would be happy to forward to any interested party a copy of the email.William R. Buckley 20:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The Macrae book has a number of problems, lousy writing being the most irksome but least defective among them. Heims [6] (strangely not yet mentioned in the further reading for this article) is better in most respects, but incomplete as a biography. A thorough and truly complete biography of von Neumann has never been written, and it is a shame. While the sentiments of friends and family members are sometimes useful in evaluating a book, they can't be counted on to be the last word. This is, of course, the principal strike against the Goldstine book as well. (But Goldstine isn't intended to be a von Neumann biography, so it doesn't even really belong in this discussion.) Robert K S 09:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There are many mentions of von Neumann within the pages of interviews. I ran across some site recently but, forget the URL at the moment. The point is that many of the personal anecdotes recorded in these interviews would be a fine place from which one might obtain consensus among editors respecting article content. William R. Buckley 19:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is a linguistic issue. I understand his family is from Germany and had the von before going to Hungary. In Hungarian there is not really a place for the von part and hence it was simply omitted. This is no reason for not using it abroad. Also, 'von' has been commonly used in the names of the Hungarian nobility when used in the German-speaking area. E.g. the novelist Vaszary Gábor's novels have appeared in Germany under the name Gábor von Vaszary.Koczy 15:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Read the section below titled "Nationality at birth" and you will come to know of von Neumann's ancestry. His family is not from Germany. The use of "von" over "margittai" was by personal election of father Miksa. Further commentary may be found below, respecting the proper division between Austria and Hungary in 1903. These details are raked over repeatedly, and mostly due to ignorance of details on the part of editors; much discussion appears here on the talk page. Please, editors, read the talk page to ascertain known facts and agreed editorial decisions before altering article content. William R. Buckley 18:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this mean that the Hungarian Wikipedia article respecting von Neumann should label him as Margittai ... and if so, what about the election of Miksa? My personal preference is to call a person the name by which they choose to be known. This will generally be the name by which the person is known to his or her mother. I think the differences are more cultural, not so specifically linguistic. Perhaps Miksa made an election repeated by few other Hungarians. Should it be so difficult to express his nobility in his native Hungary in the manner of his choosing, even if it is unusual? William R. Buckley 18:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Nuclear weapons

An extraordinary man... if you scratch somewhat deeper in any natural (and not only natural) science, his name will pop up. We should note though that von Neumann advocated nuclear attack against USSR - at least I've heard something like that on TV! -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 22:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

This too, that von Neumann advocated pre-emptive attack on the USSR, is reported in the Macrae biography. William R. Buckley 07:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but so did Bertrand Russell at one point!!--Lacatosias 16:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I believe Bertrand Russell never used game theory and massive amounts of logic to "prove" to and lobby others that bombing the Russian now was the best possible strategy. --80.43.60.43 15:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Politics and social affairs (Collaborationism)

I'm not sure what "collaborationism" is, but it's use seems to be less a fact and more an unattributed opinion. Any idea what it means or why its there? Coleca 21:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The Neumann elv (Neumann mashine)

Some of you asked about , what is a neumann mashine is really like. I'll tell you, since i learned it :) It will be hard to understand, if you dont know nothing at all about computers. So. Neumann said these "rules": 1) Stored program: The commands has to be stored in the memory in numeric code, the same way, as the data.

Ill describe this one :) So, this means, the program has to be stored in the memory in a code, that the processor can undestand, so it will know what to do, if he get that command. (Sry, but ill try the best :) )

2)Binaric system: We have to use binaric system for the data and programs.

this means, they use binaric system, because, its the most easyest. for example, if we would use decimal system, for the computer, a single power-spike could cause the computer to crash. The binaric system is the most stabile for the computer.

3) Processing unit: We need a processing unit, that can make difference between a command, and data, and can do the commands, by itself.

i think i dont have to write what is this :)

4)Arithmetic-logic unit (ALU): We need a unit, that can do the basic logic operation, and the arithmetic operation(summation, and so on).

5)Peripherys: We need in and output units, which contact the computer with the user.

(keyboard)

if you have more questions, feel free to ask :)

Voodo

What about serial and parallel processing? Does the von Neumann machine perform one processing operation at a time or does it perform more than one at a time?Lestrade 12:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

In the contemporary vernacular, a von Neumann machine is known as an SISD processor, for Single-Instruction, Single-Data. The Cray is by comparison an SIMD processor, for Single-Instruction, Multiple-Data. These are thus also known as, respectively, serial and parallel processors. SISD is most properly known as the von Neumann architecture. SIMD is most properly known as the Harvard architecture. The term von Neumann machine is a bit vague, as some have taken it to refer to the Universal Constructor. However, I believe that a thorough historical review will show that the von Neumann machine is the processor, not the self-replicator. This is perhaps a task that ought be performed, with reported results, so that future editors of the relevant von Neumann articles can get the nit-picky details accurately reflected in article text. William R. Buckley 18:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

So, with vN SISD architecture, the machine processes one datum at one time. With Harvard SIMD architecture, however, the machine processes more than one datum at one time, but only with a single instructional operation. Both architectures can only perform one instruction at one time. Both are Single Instruction (SI) architectures. While the instruction is processing, no other instructions are being processed.Lestrade 19:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Bomb stuff

A lot of the information about Von Neumann's work on the bomb was just incorrect. The most important error was the identification of the Fuchs-Von Neumann patent as being about the fission weapon -- it was clearly about the fusion bomb, as the Herken reference given clearly says. How someone can go to the trouble of a citing a specific page number but getting the actual information completely wrong is beyond me... sigh... ---Fastfission 05:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.5 assessment

I'm not too familiar with von Neumann's life, but this article appears to be fairly complete to me, and it includes at least some references (though more would be better). As such I have given it an assessment of "A-Class". Could someone familiar with the subject please check that this is reasonable, and if not please adjust it in the Version 0.5 template (e.g., change A to B). Many thanks, Walkerma 03:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC) In response to this request, a detailed article review was given by William R. Buckley here, this could be very useful to those interested in improving the article. Walkerma 03:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, congratulations to all to all who have collaborated on this one!! Good work. I can't make any assesment becasue I contributed a fairly subtantial amount myself. I will seek out more sources, refernces and we should try to make this an FA at some point if possible through peer-review, etc..--Lacatosias 08:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, there are numerous small errors in the material and several large omissions. Joseph Grcar 08:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Reviews

It's a very interesting and nice article about Von Neumann. I think it has a promise to pass GA qualification. However, there are some technical issues here, mostly related to the Manual of Style:

1. The lead section is full of specialized terms, unfamiliar to common readers. Having too many specific terms does not create interests in reading the whole article. Per WP:LS: in general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. The lead section should introducing and explaining the subject and its significance clearly and accurately, without going into excessive detail.
2. I think the lead section can be expanded further into 2-3 paragraphs. The first one explained about Von Neumann himself, his most notable contributions to the world, but not too much detail. Paragraph two summarizes his scientific career, the last paragraph can explain about his non-scientific career that gives some controversies about him, e.g. his political affairs, CIA consultant, etc. That will create some interest feeling about Von Neumann both for scientists and non-scientists readers.
3. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links), do not overlink to unnecessary articles, unrelated to the subject. I see some of this. For example, wikilink to bank, to years, etc.
4. I see references of this article in the References section, but I don't see their usage in the article. I don't see any inline citation refer to the References section. I think the editor should point out which statement was taken from which reference. This is required to ensure the verifiability of this article. Please read WP:CITE, how to make an inline citation.
5. To make reading this article easier, could the editor consider to make more structure of this article, rather than one level headline? For example, put Achievements as a section and as its subsections are: Logic, Economic, Quantum Mechanics and Computer Science.
6. In the Logic section, the introduction of it somehow too specific for common readers. It is hard to discern what it is all about, because all of sudden there are names never mentioned before and terms never introduced before. Perhaps you can put {{see also}} tag to point to Logic or History of Logic article, so that reader who want to read more about logic can refer to that articles. It is better to point directly what von Neumann has contributed in the field of Logic.
7. It is also the case in the Quantum Mechanic section. Perhaps changing prose of the articles can make it easier to understand and go directly to what the subject of this article, i.e. about von Neumann and his contributions. Do not go too deep into specialized terms in other field. Just point to a certain Wikipedia article about that field with appropriate template, so that curious readers can go to that article.
8. Mathematical formulations are also placed inappropriately. Please consider whether mathematical equations are really necessary and can make the article about von Neumann biography stronger, rather than confusing the reader.
9. I think the best example is the Economics section, where the editor points directly to what von Neumann has contributed to this field.
10. My last comment is about picture. If editor can find more pictures related to von Neumann's contributions in different fields: logic, quantum mechanics, etc., rather than just his pictures, then it would make this article more interesting to read.

This is part of GA process and I hope this article will pass GA qualifications. — Indon (reply) — 09:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, Indon--very thorough.

1. I cannot advocate any revision to the introduction. It is both concise and complete. I remember being impressed by how good it was the first time I've read it--it manages to cover all of von Neumann's variegated career. I understand the chief concern is that the names of the oft-multisyllabic topics upon which von Neumann left his mark (not actually "specialized terms" as you put it) may put off readers that are younger or less familiar with scientific fields, but each of them is wikilinked to further explanation, and any reduction of this list might lead to something oversimplified, along the lines of "he was, like, totally sweet at math 'n' science 'n' stuff."
2. Von Neumann's "political affairs" do not belong in the introduction. While he was known to have some intense political feelings as captured in a select few quotables, these did not translate into political activities; von Neumann was a consultant in all sorts of fields, but not much of a politician or activitist.
3. If you see something that seems "overlinked" then just be bold and take out the link. Most wikilinks do more good than harm.
4. Many of the references duplicate material, making it difficult to cite individual facts in the article to one source or another. A more evolutionary approach to this policy would be to wait for "citation needed" tags to appear in the article as the result of inquiries of skeptical wikipedians, and source those most controversial facts, rather than haphazardly inserting citation references, leaving an article unnecessarily littered with them.
5. It probably could use some better structure, preferably with the topics arranged in an order that corresponds chronologically to the shifting of von Neumann's focus. As such, it would start with quantuum theory and set theory, on to game theory/economics, move to hydrodynamics, atomic physics, then to computer science, and finally to automata. (Now that I look at it, it already is in this order.)
6. Concur.
7. Concur.
8. The only equations that stand out are in the quantum mechanics, and they do occur without much explanation as to their relevance. This is an area for improvement for which qualified people should step forward.
9. Okay.
10. As famous as he was, von Neumann didn't have a lot of pictures taken of him. (He was apparently captured on motion footage only once--or at least only one example survives, a television program from the 1950s.) The best examples of von Neumann with his "work" are pictures of him with computing machines, but they're all posed pictures. Second-best examples are of him in very large group shots at scientific conferences. Most of the rest are portraits. A picture of von Neumann at the blackboard (a la many of the pictures of Einstein) would be ideal. Robert K S 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Indon about the introduction. It is not that there are too many wikilinks, only that they are too dense. It may help to think of the lead as summarizing the content of the article rather than the career of von Neumann (a subtle distinction). Concerning images, I think it would be better to add images related to his work, rather than more pictures of him. I also think it is a strength of the article that it does touch upon the mathematics and other technical aspects of his contributions. Geometry guy 16:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with the infobox

A user removed the JvN infobox, calling it "silly". For my own edification, what was the problem with the infobox, and why was it removed? For my part, I thought it brought needed structure to the article front.

It is redundant. An encyclopedia article is written in prose. --Pjacobi 13:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It may be redundant, but it assists in the useful organization of a large amount of information in a small space, providing easier comparisons. Is the infobox for Tyrannosaurus also silly? As for encyclopedias needing to limit themselves to prose--what is this, 1910? Hyperlinks, pictures, graphs, sparklines, interactive applets, and yes, infoboxes are all part of the information age experience that is Wikipedia. Robert K S 13:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Scientic classification at species-articles is structured enough to make presentation in a box sort of reasonable. This doesn't hold for biographies. --Pjacobi 13:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it such a momentous matter, one way or the other? How about trying to help address some of the more serious concerns listed above and stop arguing about infoboxes?--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 16:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Which more serious concern did you have in mind? Robert K S 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA

Based on GA reviews and responses given, I failed this article of GA for the following reasons:

1. Well written? — need major improvements
   • As I have mentioned in the previous thread, that the prose is not clear for common readers. This article requires pre-requisite of certain knowledge for a reader to understand. For example in the logic section, where readers have to know a priori about set theory.
   • Prose for specialist readers is also found in the Quantum Mechanics and Computer Science sections. Necessary technical jargons should only be briefly explained and wikilinked.
   • Mathematical equations are not properly and briefly explained. Although one of the editor have answered that "The only equations that stand out are in the quantum mechanics, and they do occur without much explanation as to their relevance.", but this is not about quantum mechanics. It's about Von Neumann.
   • Also that the mathematical equations do not make this article stronger, but rather confusing.
   • Lead section should be reshaped to give a summary about von Neumanns, including his political involvement in nuclear missiles and the cold war. Also specialized terms should be minimized in the lead section, per WP:LS.
2. Factually accurate and verifiable? — need improvements
   • Again, based on the previous reviews, inline citations are needed for a biography article, to satisfy the verifiability.
   • Some sections do not cite any sources.
   • One of the editors simply said that inline citations can be given for a skeptical wikipedians. This is totally wrong, as an article is read not only by a wikipedian.
3. Broad in coverage? — need improvements
   • Please focus on the subject, i.e. about Von Neumann. I see in the Logic and Quantum Mechanics sections, editors give too many unnecessary theory about logic and quantum mechanics. Just point with {{see also}} to a more detailed explanation for curious readers.
4. Neutral point of view? — need improvements
   • In the Politic and Social Affairs section, his controversy of being involved as the scientific mind behind the cold war is not presented.
   • There is a statement that he was violently anti-communist, but no further explanations about this.
   • I see some POV tones, such as the velocity of his own intellect.
5. Article stability? — passes
6. Image? — need more illustrations about von Neumann's major inventions

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. — Indon (reply) — 13:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Nationality at birth

In 1903 Hungary was a sovereign kingdom (monarchy) within the Austro-Hungarian Dual Monarchy alongside the Austrian monarchy. There was no such thing as an Austro-Hungarian nationality, subjects were either Austrian or Hungarian. Having been born in Budapest, the capital of Hungary, John Neumann was unquestionably Hungarian at the time of his birth. I have corrected the lead article. Bardwell 21:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Philadelphia Experiment and Montauk Project

I added a section about von Neumann and the Philadelphia Experiment and the Montauk Project. Feel free to add/erase/delete, but i feel something belongs here about him and those two experiments.

Which Civil War

In the first paragraph in the Biography section, it says he was an expert on the "Civil War." Could someone specify which civil war this was? Picaroon9288 18:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

There was no event in Hungarian history which is known as a "civil war". The author probably means the USA civil war. This should promptly be precised by someone who is able to check the fact. 84.1.197.74 05:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

First, civil war it is not, Civil War it is, as it is a title, and this title is the name by which the American civil war is known by the general public in the US. Von Neumann's memory is a well annecdoted fact, including a thorough knowledge of the American Civil War. I'll correct the hotlink. William R. Buckley 19:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Second, if you remove US and American from a google search on "civil war", you get a variety of otherwise named civil wars: English, Spanish, Chinese, Finnish, etc. Though the search could be more thorough, there does not appear to be many other wars known as the civil war for any other people. This designation, the use of a general term for a specific case, of the civil war being the American Civil War does seem to be represented within the pages of the web. William R. Buckley 19:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Cantor "invented" set theory?

I don't think Cantor invented set theory. If anybody did, wasn't it Boole?

Set theory does not equal to the combinatorial concept of sets. It is, roughly speaking, a discipline to approach infinite magnitudes in a mathematically sound way. Georg Cantor clearly made the breakthrough in this area, after millennia of disinterest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.1.197.74 (talk) 05:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

Nash studied with Von Neumann?

What is the source for that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.49.151.75 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

I've removed John F. Nash from the list of von Neumann's students. Nash was supervised by Albert Tucker. According to Nasar's biography A Beautiful Mind, Nash's only discussion with von Neumann about his equilibria work was disappointing (von Neumann dismissed his result as trivial). Of course, Nash was influenced strongly by von Neumann's ideas and work (like countless other mathematicians).

An early draft of the script for the Beautiful Mind film featured von Neumann as a character (I believe von Neumann's name was misspelled), but was cut prior to filming. I've never been able to unearth this draft and so cannot offer more details about the portrayal; I would appreciate being contacted if anyone can point me in the direction of a copy. Robert K S 13:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Von Neumann had no students during most of his carreer because the Institute for Advanced study is not a degree-granting educational institution --- no one was a "professor" there. He did have postdocs. I do not know how Halperin got to be his student; perhaps he was left over from the short time when von Neumann was a part-time professor at Princeton before his IAS appointment. Joseph Grcar 08:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

50-year von Neumann box

According to the Wolfram source [7]:

"It is now fifty years since John von Neumann's death ... and his daughter tells me that in fact "The Big Box opening turned out to be a Big Bust". Apparently she and her children and their grandchildren had assembled ... only to discover that it was all a big mistake: the box was actually not John von Neumann's at all! So I suppose we will have to work a little harder to plumb more of John von Neumann's final character..."

Since the box wasn't his, I've removed the section. It would just clutter up the article with no payoff or significance. Robert K S 17:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Religious Affiliation

The ability of anyone to alter Wikipedia does not extend to justification for so doing. The fact of von Neumann's religious association is explicated elsewhere, and the game playing that I see (over when he converted to catholocism) is misguided at best. This articles biography provides some detail on the issue. Perhaps review of the various book biographies of von Neumann would help to settle this debate. More to the point, why not ask his daughter. It is not as if she is incommunicado - I've received email from her - quite nice of Dr. Whitman to respond, actually. If anyone is to give the facts, it is likely she. William R. Buckley 18:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Reading tells me that von Neumann converted as a condition of marriage. After all, what catholic girl wants to be excommunicated for marrying outside the religion. Isn't that a percept of Roman Catholocism? Maybe it is a percept that once applied, like when von Neumann got married, and no longer is an issue. William R. Buckley 18:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

What is in the heart is another matter. For von Neumann, the conversion may only have been perfunctory, becoming true only upon his deathbed request for a priest. William R. Buckley 18:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Methinks that much of the wrangling over wording of the remarks about von Neumann's religious convictions falls into the category known as POV. William R. Buckley 18:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

University of Pázmány Péter?

Péter Pázmány (Pázmány being the family name, Hungarian order: Pázmány Péter) was actually a person, whose name the university bore the time Neumann attended it. Therefore 'University of Pázmány Péter' looks quite funny for a native Hungarian, and may be somewhat misleading. 'Pázmány Péter University' or 'Péter Pázmány University' would probably look better. 84.0.216.194 22:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

PAGE RENAME IS NEEDED!

Greetings!

We are from Hungary and we have never heard John's name like this with the "von" tag in it... So we wonder if it would possible to rename the page to John Neumann(physicist). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chympy (talk • contribs) 17:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Hi! You might be interested, instead, in editing the Magyar version of this page.[8] In English contexts, John von Neumann is the most familiar name for this individual. Robert K S 18:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, with one reservation. The difference in popular name usage between cultures is likely to be a valuable item of interest to article readers. So, while we would not want to alter article title, the point should find mention within article text. William R. Buckley 19:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Universal constructor.

Frankly, I do not like the wording which I added respecting this concept - universal constructor. Perhaps it should be - universal construction. This however conflicts with a mathematical notion of the same name - universal construction - which then acts as a redirection to the page - universal property. William R. Buckley 20:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Birth city flag

There seems to be some contention about using the Austrian flag to represent Austria-Hungary in the infobox under von Neumann's birth city. Despite the fact that Budapest is in present-day Hungary, using the Hungarian flag is certainly no more appropriate, as Hungary did not exist as a sovereign entity in 1903, and the present-day Hungary flag represented, at that time, a faction that was in opposition to the official state. I see several alternatives:

• Reach consensus to use the AUS flag, since it is the one that most resembles the Austria-Hungary flag.
• Find and use an Austria-Hungary flag, if one exists, and create one, if it doesn't; at thumbnail resolution, however, it may be indistinguishable from the AUS flag.
• Use no flag.

Comments? Suggestions? Robert K S 17:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I found the Austria-Hungary flag and made the replacement. Hopefully this will be satisfactory. Robert K S 17:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this: In 1903 Hungary was a sovereign kingdom (monarchy) within the Austro-Hungarian Dual Monarchy alongside the Austrian monarchy. There was no such thing as an Austro-Hungarian nationality, subjects were either Austrian or Hungarian. Having been born in Budapest, the capital of Hungary, John Neumann was unquestionably Hungarian at the time of his birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.101.112.193 (talk) 2007-05-05T13:29:37 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "nationality": JvN was born a citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. While JvN would, of course, be described as "Hungarian" and not "Austrian" or as any of the other groups represented in the Empire, I still object to using the present-day flag of Hungary to represent a 1903 birth nationality. I hope you see and can agree that is prima facie inaccurate. Robert K S 17:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to replace the present day hungary flag to that official flag which was used by Hungary in the monarchy. Do you agree with me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.101.112.193 (talk) 2007-05-05T13:43:17 (UTC)

Info Box tweek

I changed the notable student to the one that has a Wiki article. Maybe if that other fellow gets an article we can add him back? I also removed the bit about the ritual circumcision. Born to non-practicing Jewish family seems to sufice. Can't wait to discuss this one :) Cheers, --Tom 13:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"his father purchased a title"?

I object to the claim that John von Neumann's father "purchased" a title in 1913. Titles of nobility in the Austro-Hungarian empire were conferred by the head of state ONLY. In the case of a Hungarian citizen in 1913, this would have been the Habsburg monarch Francis Joseph I. in his role as Apostolic King of Hungary. While considerable fees were involved for anyone petitioning for a title of nobility (e.g. for processing the application, issueing the diploma, drawing up of heraldic devices, etc.), it was never formally possible to obtain a title simply by "buying" it from anyone as the article suggests. Saying that John von Neumann's father was granted a title of nobility in 1913 and that the family was thereafter entitled to the style of "von" would undoubtledly describe the situation better. 193.170.52.70, 20:26, May 20, 2007 (UTC)

First, identify yourself. It is quite difficult to communicate with anonymous persons. William R. Buckley 01:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Second, cite your source. You make assertions but, you do not demonstrate that your assertion is correct. William R. Buckley 01:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Third, do review the available literature. The book by Macrae clearly states that John von Neumann's father purchased a title. William R. Buckley 01:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. I have obtained the copy of Macrae's book. On pages 57 and 58 of the 1992 first edition as published in the United States by Pantheon Books is described the ennoblement. Macrae reports that Max Neumann was "rewarded with hereditary nobility" and that "Ennoblement was not an unusual reward for prominent bankers and industrialists during those last years of the Austro-Hungarian empire." So, purchase was not made with cash. Instead, it was with loyal service. William R. Buckley 20:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

We will correct the article. William R. Buckley 20:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no complaint with your objection, per se; your justification for this objection is clearly lacking. William R. Buckley 01:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Others will appreciate that the MacTutor references, and their supporting content found at St. Andrews University, specifically states that the ennoblement was purchased. This point should perhaps be researched further, to clarify the disparity of sources. I prefer the Macrae biography as it is reported to be well appreciated by von Neumann's family. William R. Buckley 18:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Prodigy stuff

I trimmed the early prodigy stuff a bit unless we can find sources for it. --Tom 20:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It's all in the Macrae bio. Robert K S 23:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because you say there is no source does not mean that others have not earlier given a source. Don't remove material simply due to your ignorance of the topic. Rather, question first; act later. William R. Buckley 00:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but thats how I work since I am just plain ignorant. Whats your excuse??--Tom 12:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with fair disclosure. The point is that you assume the lack of a source, and act. What is best is to question the issue in the talk pages, get a reply, and move forward. There are two ways that Wikipedia can work; by consensus, and by discontent. Simply removing material without knowledge of the issue is likely to get article content wrong. Moreover, why spend time undoing error which is repeatedly introduced by editors new to a topic? Discussion on the talk pages first is, in contemporary parlance, an issue of best practices. Also, you are not assuming good faith, and take too personally the word *ignorance*, a term which is not necessarily derogatory. William R. Buckley 14:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. --Tom 17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference Checklist

It occurs to me that editors might be well served with a checklist against which statements in an article are linked to a correspondingly authoritative reference. Is this something that other editors find appealing? William R. Buckley 18:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Economics

I believe the economics section should be expanded to discuss von Neumann-Morgenstern utility a little more given its massive importance in that field Canking 00:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)