Talk:List of designated terrorist groups

Archive 1 to September 2006: Talk:List of terrorist organisations/Archive 1

(archive 1 included specific discussions on the Jewish Defense League, Hindu organisations, Operation Rescue, the PLO, JKLF, Stern Gang, ANC, ALF, EZLN and EOKA. Please refer to these archived discusions when making edits to these sections.)

Irish Nationalists/Ulster Loyalists

Why does it say they are in "Ireland"? All of these groups are only from Northern Ireland and their goals concern only Northern Ireland, though they may sometimes operate in the Republic. I remember it used to say that they were from Northern Ireland, but somebody changed it without asking. Let us change it back to reflect the info more accurately.

United States of America Government

The US government has killed more civilians since its establishment than any other government in the history of mankind, including the destabilisation of the sovereign nation of Iraq, and recently providing material support for bombings inside several cities inside Iraq. The US is founded upon genocide of the Native American Indians, Barbary Wars, war with Hawaii, Samoia, Moro, Philipines, Mexico. Deaths in Iraq/Iran directly attributable to the US sponsorship of Saddam Hussein's Iraq government resulted in the death of >1 million, deaths in Iraq since the 1993 invasion are about another 1 million. Vietnam (4 million), Laos and Cambodia bombing (2 million), Korea (3.5 million),

About 5,000 civilians have been killed in Afghanistan, about 4,500 were killed during the US invasion of Panama,then there's Dominica, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Cuba, Iran, Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo, the list is fairly endless. Take any South American country that has murdered more than 100,000 if its civilians in the last 50 years, and you can be sure it had a US-supported and financed government while it was killing. Any good example of the anti-democratic nature of the US, is its imprisonment of more than 1 million of its own civilians (for being poor and wanting more, Oliver).

"No major advanced industrial nation has suffered less or profited more from its terroristic wars than the United States."

I don't think this is the right forum for people to forward their ideologic claims concerning a quite unconnected topic. Please be so kind and move it elsewhere. --195.113.65.4 23:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

^This entry uses an extremely vague definition of the word Terrorist, under this definition any government that has EVER gone to war could be considered a terrorist group.JSPyper 10:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the right forum for this topic because the "war on drugs" and "war on terror" has turned the US government into the largest terrorist organizition in the world.

http://libertarianempire.com/Drugs.html

This entry is an example of why colleges do not accept Wikipedia for scholarly research. It is factually inaccurate (see Soviet Union purges for governments killing people, or perhaps Nazi Germany if you want to count wars), is sophomoric (War on Drugs? terrorism? I think that's a bit backward. See: Narco-terrorism for the correct entry). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas J. Mason (talk • contribs) 03:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Central Intel. Agency (CIA)

Since when has the Central Intellegence Agency been a terrosit organization - that's right - since it was set up. The example of the bombing of Hiroshima as a terrorist action is completly biased, mainly due to they were a part of an ongoing general war, between the united states and japan. A counter argument to that woud be why are the insurgents of the Iraq war considered terrorists? Because they fight for no country, are no military force, wear no insignia, uniform, etc. O ya also I know that the USA and EU classify the Jewish Defense League as a terrorist organization, however based on public opinion of the group as a "protection" group should we, have the power of wikipedia, classify this group as a terrorist organization?

Have removed CIA as it fails the criteria of being a non-state actor. Ttiotsw 21:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The DEA is also a terrorist.

http://libertarianempire.com/DEA.html

Hindu Section Mediation

This section is for the discussion regarding the mediation-cabal case about the Hindu section.

Mediator: Addhoc. Involved Parties: Yukon guy Sm ashiq AndrewRT User:Hkelkar Basawala

Would any other involved parties add their name to the list. Thanks, Addhoc 10:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

VHP is considered an offshoot of RSS on the article Vishva Hindu Parishad. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 20:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And so is Bajrang Dal, as a youth wing, on its own article. If those information are incorrect, then change the section, but since its the exact wording on the articles for vhp and bd. If the info's wrong, then change in on those pages first. Is this what the added missing citations were about? Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 20:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the concern is the references do not indicate the organisations are considered terrorists by a governmental authority. In this context, they would have to be removed from this article. Addhoc 20:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 21:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the context and will not oppose the removal. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 21:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, didn't realise you had come to a decision. So is it safe to remove VHP and Bajrang Dal as well? Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Nobleeagle, yes I think so, there appears to be a consensus they should be removed. Addhoc 10:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

French Resistance

What about the French Resistance and other Resistance organizations? --Error 00:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

They have been described as terrorist orginizations by more than one source and their methods match those of some of the other organizations on the list. There seems no reasonable reason to exclude them 81.153.253.32 02:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Elmo

See the definition of groups included in this list

Therefore, this list is of organisations that are, or have been in the past, proscribed as "terrorist organizations" by other organizations, including the United Nations and national governments, where the proscription has a significant impact on the group's activities.

Thats why. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 04:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Weren't the resistances considered terrorist by the pro-Nazi governments? --Error 05:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure, are there references that comply with the criteria quoted by Snowolfd4... Addhoc 12:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

terrorism is a tactic

terrorism is a military tactic it is way for small poorly armed groups to hit goverments or society it is often cruel dirty underhand and ruthless but you could say the same about dropping a bomb from a plane and some of the groups were created as a response to being treated badly like the pkk or tamil groups Bouse23 16:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

People's Mujahedin of Iran

Definately need to be added to the list, still recognised as a terrorist organisation by the USA State Department, The EU and Iran. Only problem is they don't really fight into into any of the current lists. They mix islam, marxism and nationalism all together so they don't gel comfortably the islamist list, the communist list or the nationalist list. I considered adding a whole new section for 'other' middle-eastern terrorist groups but wasn't sure, any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.43.66 (talk • contribs)

Agree they should be added AndrewRT - Talk 18:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

From the article People's Mujahedin of Iran I've added them to other nationalists as that seems closest AndrewRT - Talk 18:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Since PMI is funded by the US government, I have also added the US government to the list CartJLindsey 23:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Differentiating historical from contemporary terrorists

Is it a good idea to differentiate between historical terrorists from contemporary. This is expecially true with say new countries like the US or say Israel where say they were (in both cases against the British) fighting colonial powers. Maybe a fork needed for List of historical terrorist organisations ?

For the moment as you'll see with the Jewish entries I have highlighted the Historical i.e. pre-Israel groups who fought the British and Contemporary groups i.e. groups in existance today. Ttiotsw 10:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Managing ambiguity of Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation

This is an ambiguous entry but simply because of the future wishes of some countries in the EU with respect to any peace process in the Middle East. Some IP based user removed it and I reverted that and added it back because even though the EU doesn't specifically list it as terrorist group the sentiment by individuals in the EU is that it is. So though superficially from a EU perspective there is a desire to not have it listed, in a practical sense, it satisfies the definition as far as this list is concerned. Please don't remove it without adding talk here. Ttiotsw 10:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Kahane Chai from Terrorist Organizations

Kahane Chai does not condone Terrorism. Kahane Chai defends themselves from Islamic Terrorist threats such as Hamas and Hezbollah, and does not meet the criteria for the definition of a Terrorist Organization. Although members have committed terroristic acts, the group as a whole does not support the actions, and should not be held responsible for individuals. Kahane Chai even attempts to dissuade members from committing violent crimes against the innocent, which the Torah forbids. They are traditionalists, and the use of terrorism would make them hypocrites. The Torah, however states the Jews may act in defense, which Kahane Chai does. There has been no proof, that the group as a whole has committed any terrorism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.77.19.102 (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

One thing though is I'd like to thank you for using the talk page ! and this makes me sympathetic but I do feel that your interpretation of the Torah is simply original research WP:OR as it presents a claim which only you and no one else notable has stated to be true with respect to Kahane Chai. This is part of my problem with historical verses contempory terrorism (people can change their stance). I would prefer to keep them listed as Kahane Chai is/was clearly listed in the U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE’S DESIGNATED FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION LIST and is refered to in the document ( http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror99.pdf ) as follows, "KAHANE CHAI * Israel, West Bank Seeks to continue Kach founder’s rejectionist agenda, considered Jewish extremist more militant than Kach party from which it sprang" (page 50) The star against them is that they have a presence in the US. If they have clearly renounced plus are clear of any US DoS or UN or EU references then they can be moved to the historical entries. It's unclear if they have done this. Ttiotsw 07:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I am Jewish, and cannot see how a group of Jewish traditionalists could possibly disobey the laws of God, especially considering their goal is to establish a Jewish State governed by Jewish Law. I, too have not seen conclusive evidence that Kahane Chai is a Terrorist Organization. They have no proven history of violence. Intrafects 13:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the State of Israel, The United States of America and the EU have got it all wrong.DuncanHill 00:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Again to the god believing jewish person, the catagory for entry to the list is not if they follow the laws of god but what the wikipedia page deems valid for entry. Following the so-called laws of god (and you have provided no proof of this from a verifiable source) doesn't detract from established state definitions of terrorism. If we have a violent non-state actor and an established state has deemed them worthy of inclusion on a list of "terrorists" then the group goes in and you can't remove it unless you can show evidence to the contary. I'm removing the tag as it's a waste of time you tagging the article when just one group has such an asymetrical balance of evidence in favour of inclusion. Ttiotsw 02:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The Torah is more than a verifiable source, and it appears that you need to read it.

No - the Torah is at best a primary source and it is usually not good to use primary sources to justify a point of view as that is original research and not verifiable. See Wikipedia:No_original_research#Sources. We use secondary sources on Kahane Chai and given the few thousand years difference between the publication of the Torah and the existance of the Kahane Chai it is anachronistic to apply one to the other. Ttiotsw 02:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

Spelling correction in content 9.6 on Black Muslims: "merdered" to "murdered"

SkatRadioh 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh, good catch. Done. :) Luna Santin 08:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Babel

Please add an other language version link ja:テロリスト一覧. Naka64 03:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

POV

Isn't it POV to have ANY group listed on this page? The distinction of terrorist ultimately relies on a political distinction and moral judgment! Doesn't it? 206.124.94.22 15:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The redirect Terrorist organization needs to be distinct from the List of terrorist organisations, as many of the examples cloud the definition, esp. as "Religious Terrorists" is the first section in the list of terrorist organisations. John Vandenberg 05:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There is massive POV connoted by the title - it suggests that all the groups listed in the article are terrorist organizations - this is extreme prejudice and is an ongoing systematic bias notably found in many articles about groups opposing the U.S. The article should be renamed to something like "List of groups refered to as terrorist organizations" - this was done for example in the case of the "List of groups referred to as cults" article to remove any prejudice. Sfacets 05:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

...but all the groups listed in the article are terrorist organizations. Which ones do you not think should be included ?. With cults the problem is that it is usually "former cults" that are classifying the others as cults e.g. the Catholic Church 2000 years ago was quite simply a "cult". There is no clear authority as to what is a cult. With Terrorist organisations the criteria for inclusion is that a governmental agency must have deemed the group a terrorist organisation. Thus all the entries are terrorist organisations. If you know of entries that are not then please remove them.

Ttiotsw 06:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Your definition of a terrorist organisation may not be another person's definition - also different governments/individuals call different groups terrorist. Labeling a group as a terrorist organisation is simply POV. Sfacets 06:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a definition; I use the article criteria i.e. they have to be proscribed as "terrorist organizations" by other organizations, including the United Nations and national governments, where the proscription (had or) has a significant impact on the group's activities. Thus if an individual calls something a that's just their opinion. I do not see this article as POV. It just needs the usual trimming now and then to remove people's current bugbears. Which entry is an example of what you are thinking of ? Ttiotsw 07:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the title of the article - not to any entry - the title connotes that every organization listed here is unanimously labeled as being a terrorist organization, when if fact the definition of what contritutes a terrorist organization varies. To insure neutrality, the article would need to be renamed. Sfacets 08:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

If there are no further objections I will start moving the article... Sfacets 02:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Factual error

article says "Lord's Resistance Army Christian/Pagan/Muslim"

this group specifically does not have ANY muslim members, and is known in Uganda as the Lord's Christian Army. They seek to put the 10 commandment as their national law, I doubt any muslim would be in their group. I contacted Robery Pelton who has interviewed members of their group, and he says they aren't muslim but a Christian terrorist group. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.246.244.184 (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Forget the "facts" on this group, I don't think any form of reality applies !. A few months ago I initially didn't like the use of "pagan" as I didn't think that traditional African tribal faiths would be this destructive to society (the finger in the air being that since I feel that Africa is where humans have originated from any term that uses pagan has to go back to the very first humans and that's a lot of ground to cover) but when searching I find that this mad bunch have combined bits of Christian, Pagan and Muslim cultural references. Probably one of the nastiest forms of religious Syncretism; not the first and probably won't be the last. They are not specifically Christian, not pagan and not Muslim but all three faith systems have influenced them. See the article Joseph_Kony for the reference to mixing in Muslim stuff. Ttiotsw 19:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Central Intel. Agency

Since when has the Central Intellegence Agency been a terrosit organization. The example of the bombing of Hiroshima as a terrorist action is completly biased, mainly due to they were a part of an ongoing general war, between the united states and japan. A counter argument to that woud be why are the insurgents of the Iraq war considered terrorists? Because they fight for no country, are no military force, wear no insignia, uniform, etc, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AlexBenshoff (talk • contribs) 02:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

New Tribes Mission ?

I am surprised because New Tribes Mission is not in the list. It have destroyed atleast 10 cultures and committed atleast a dozen acts of genocide. Axxn 12:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Superficially reading even their Wikipedia article i.e. New Tribes Mission probably some dirt to dig up but to make it stick you have to find a neutral (and reliable) source that calls them terrorists. Quickly looking at some google searches and their article it's not clear that this is true. I certainly do not agree with them (or any missionaries for that matter !) but "terrorists" would be bit of a biased label. ps: I have retitled this section. Ttiotsw 18:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Kale Borroka

I don't think that "Kale Borroka" should be considered as a terrorist organization. In fact, it's just a spontaneous street disturbance phenomenon in the Basque Country, magnified by the spanish media. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gorka alustiza (talk • contribs) 16:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Yup its not an organisation so shifted it as a sentence with "See also" in the same line as ETA. I used the google translated page [1] to come to the conslusion that it was related to ETA (according to the Spanish Ministerio Del Interior). Ttiotsw 18:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Central Intelligence Agency

The CIA is in service to protect the people of the United States. While some acts may be questionable to certain individuals their goal is not to strike fear into people. "Terrorists" strike fear into people. Terrorists put forth their idealogy, their morals, and their ideas through violence. Putting the CIA on a list of "Terrorist Organizations" is not acceptable. The CIA should be taken off the list A.S.A.P.

Kman2006 19:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)Kman2006 2/4/07

Have removed CIA as it fails the criteria of being a non-state actor not because of your reasoning though. In future it's easier to look at the criteria for inclusion. Ttiotsw 21:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Front Liberation du Quebec

Why no mention of the FLQ? They murdered 13 people and were certainly more dangerous and violent than many of the organizations listed here!

Ideally Be bold and do it yourself but I guess given the more recent letter alleged from the Front de libération du Québec they should be included. Under what category though ? Given their penchant for speaking French could these simply be in a new category of "Language Terrorists" ? No, I guess they are like ETA so have added it under "Others" in a new country entry of Canada. Ttiotsw 06:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted myself as I would want to see a Canadian government entry that lists this group as a terrorist group. Ttiotsw 07:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hindu Groups Bajrang Dal/VHP/RSS as terrorists

Hi,

The list of dubious organizations is quite exhaustive, but I am rather interested in the logic behind removing the BajrangDal/VHP/RSS from the list of terrorist groups. Firstly, what is the criteria or citerion for placing a particular group under this list. The IRA has been defunct as a terrorist for quite some time. It has nonetheless been included. If one were to add an organization to the list, then we need to be clear as to what would qualify a group to be designated as such. If we restrict ourselves to UN or internationally classified groups, the list would change. In the like vein, if we were to stick by US, European, or any other special interest criteria the list would mutate still further. We therefore need to be clear on the reason for inclusion. But if a group were to be inducted for advocating and actually carrying out the arbitrary murder, rape, and forced ostracization of a section of society for nationalistic or religious ideals, then the VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal triumverate, accompanied by the Shiv Sena, are certainly valid candidates. To substantiate these claims one can simply provide quotes from their own websites, newspaper articles, and documents filed by various Indian Non-Government Groups, as well as the UNHCR.

It is imperative that the list on Wiki follow a predefined criteria so as to avoid any unnecessary debates, that for the most part are not driven by a commitment to objectivity, rather to self-imbibed nationalistic and ideological inhibitions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.237.109.68 (talk) 23:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Hindu Groups Bajrang Dal/VHP/RSS as terrorists

Hi,

The list of dubious organizations is quite exhaustive, but I am rather interested in the logic behind removing the BajrangDal/VHP/RSS from the list of terrorist groups. Firstly, what are the criteria or citerion for placing a particular group under this list. The IRA has been defunct as a terrorist for quite some time. If one were to add an organization to the list, then we need to be clear as to what would qualify a group to be designated as such. If we restrict ourselves to UN or internationally classified groups, the list would change. In the like vein, if we were to stick by US, European, or any other special interest criteria the list would mutate still further. We therefore need to be clear on the reason for inclusion. But if a group were to be inducted for advocating and actually carrying out the arbitrary murder, rape, and forced ostracization of a section of society for nationalistic or religious ideals, then the VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal triumverate, accompanied by the Shiv Sena, are certainly valid candidates. To substantiate these claims one can simply provide quotes from their own websites, newspaper articles, and documents filed by various Indian Non-Government Groups, as well as the UNHCR.

It is imperative that the list on Wiki follow a predefined criteria so as to avoid any unnecessary debates, that for the most part are not driven by a commitment to objectivity, rather to self-imbibed nationalistic and ideological inhibitions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.237.109.68 (talk) 23:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

No Palestinian Nationalists?

It seems outragously inaccurate for all Palestinian terror organizations to be under Religious:Islamist, none under Nationalist:Palestinian. This is as if all organizations dedicated to blowing up abortion clinics were listed under Religious:Christian instead of...odd...there's no Issues:Abortion subcategory. In fact, no Issues category at all. Surely this is an oversight, there are clearly organizations dedicated to change on some specific political issue.

Anyway, while it may be true that all Palestinian nationalist groups happen to be populated entirely by Muslims, just as an anti-abortion group might be populated by Christians, it doesn't change the actual core motivation of the group toward the ISSUE, not the religion itself. --Kaz 00:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Mea culpa: I didn't notice the complicated sub-classification of Palestinian nationalist terrorism into Jewish and Islamic. --Kaz 00:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposition to change article name

This because:

1) Terrorism is not a well-defined term, thus it should be clear in the headline that these are organisations accused of terrorism, and that it's not up to Wikipedia to decide whether they really are.

2) States are organisations. A state, or an organisation within a state, that keeps itself busy with terrorism is a terrorist organisation, simple as that. And it would be a bit silly to add like half of the states in the world, their secret services etc, onto this list, wouldn't it?

I propose we change the name of this article to something like: List of non-[governmental/state] organisations accused of [terrorism/using terrorist tactics].

I also propose that we create another article, List of [governmental/state] organisations accused of [terrorism/using terrorist tactics] where we can add organisations such as DGSE, CIA and the military of a lot of countries, to balance this article. --Merat 08:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there any objections to move the article? I'll do it soon otherwise. --Merat 07:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Freedom Club

No UNABOMBER freedom club?

Black Nation of Islam

I cannot find on any government site where the Nation of Islam is on any terrorist list. I checked the Homeland Security, US Attorney and Department of State websites. I have researched the Nation of Islam extensively and do not believe it should be included in this list, especially without any supporting evidence to support its inclusion. One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. Information Empowered 20:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Defense League

JDL is not listed as a terrorist organization. There will be no evidence to prove such; if they are a terrorist organization, who are they designated by? RolandR - you have a vested interest in defaming JDL - because you are against Zionsim!! Please, do not let your personal feelings get in the way of honest articling! eternalsleeper

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror2000_2001.htm - "(The Jewish Defense League has been deemed a right-wing terrorist group.)".

Now, please don't accuse me of being against Zionism either, since I am an Israeli Jew. --Nupractor 06:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Being an Israeli-Jew does not exclude one from being anti-Zionist. The Neturei Karta has a base around Jerusalem too. That article proves nothing, and it is the only one available. They call them an extremist organiztion and then out of the blue, in an very non-official way, they go on to call them a right wing terrorist group. It's not credible at all. Find another link, it should be easy if they are a terrorist group. The people who keep adding JDL are anti-Zionists, and you can tell from their contributions. Conflict of interest for sure. eternalsleeper

Here is a speech by [2] Special Agent Mary Deborah (Debbie) Doran Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Before the 9/11/2001 Commission June 16, 2004 in which the text says, "JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE, a proscribed terrorist group,". I think it is clear that the JDL is deemed to be a terrorist group. Ttiotsw 03:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

eternalsleeper, there is no conflict of interest. Common belief is that Kahanist organizations do the Zionist cause more harm than good. Are you expected to support KKK for example, just because you're white? --Nupractor 06:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Nupractor, of course not. A Jewish person can choose if they support JDL or not, and this is their choice. But there is no documented proof that JDL is a terrorist organization. A few of their members have committed terrorist acts; such as Barcuh Goldstein, but they did so on their own accord. Are terrorist organizations allowed to operate freely, like the JDL and JDL Canada does? There may have been a time when JDL was a terrorist organization but they are not now. Certainly not in Canada. You should add where they are listed and who they are listed by in the article. I don't think that link proves anything as it is unofficial. Show me a list of terrorist groups and I guarantee you that JDL is not listed on that page. I have no reason to be defending JDL, other then the fact I know people who are active in the group and the only thing they do is protest anti-Semitism (that is right, no bombings, murders, vadalism, etc.) These people are teachers, doctors, business owners, students, not terrorists. You have it all wrong. JDL just has a bad reputation because of Barch Goldstein and a mismanaged website. I'd remove JDL again but I'd be wasting my time as there appear to be various editors who wish to defame JDL as terrorist. This is a violation of Wiki policies. If you want to know the truth about JDL, you should not rely on a single link that is an unofficial report of terrorist acts.

eternalsleeper

You are entitled to your opinion, but accusing everyone you disagree with of anti-semitism/anti-zionism is unacceptable. --Nupractor 19:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The list lead paragraphs say, "Therefore, this list is of organisations that are, or have been in the past, proscribed as "terrorist organizations". i.e. they need not now be proscribed. I have provided a link [3] that states specifically that "JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE, a proscribed terrorist group,". It may be that now they are reformed but when they reformed they should have changed their name. Ttiotsw 03:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"a proscribed terrorist group" is a lot different from "an official terrorist group." You will find no information from the FBI that states JDL is an official terrorist group, mostly, because they aren't. And read the report, it is testimony from some woman. Doesn't prove anything at all. It's her own opinion. eternalsleeper

"they may have been listed at one time as a terror group" [4] --Denis Diderot 10:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone really wants to know if JDL is a terrorist group or not , I suggest you do a google search. This wikipedia article is very devious and misleading. eternalsleeper

This is not the JDL article. --Nupractor 19:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I googled for JDL is a terrorist group and (ignoring Wikipedia article and other wacky sites) I see [5] in which, yes it does say "The Jewish Defense League was dealt a significant blow in 1987 upon the conviction of several group members. Today, JDL is not actively engaged in terrorist actions. Two JDL members, however, were arrested in 2001 for their plot to bomb the office of a Lebanese-American Congressman from Orange County California and a mosque in Culver City California.". Inclusion in our Wikipedia list though is predicated on any terrorist actions both current or in the past. If the people in charge of the JDL today cared about their public profile then they would have renamed the group. This is like if I started a left-of-center party in the US and called it the "Communist Party"; what would people think first ? No matter how much money I spent touting my mix of libertarian, free market but pro-Union policies people would always see red with the name. Ttiotsw 19:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Call the FBI, and ask "Is the Jewish Defense League a Terrorist Organization?", and they will tell you NO! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Intrafects (talk • contribs)

The list makes no distinction between past or present terrorist activity. JDL have clearly been designated (though they may not be considered a terrorist group today). Some phone call to the FBI isn't a reliable or verifiable reference anyway. Ttiotsw 03:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Statements like "we are not ashamed to say that Goldstein was a charter member of the Jewish Defense League."[6] speak a lot. // Liftarn

Israel's MOSAAC?

Is MOSAAC a terrorist organization? Since it 'strikes fear' and uses psychological warfare techniques? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.148.57.230 (talk) 07:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

The Taliban

Shouldn't the Taliban be considered to be a terrorist organization now that they have been overthrown? I mean, look at the amount of violence linked to them. I think that they should be added on here. 71.237.201.77 01:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No, unless some state and/or the UN designates it as a terrorist organisation (are there even any Taliban organisation to talk of?). Merat 21:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

the Taliban doesn't exist as such really, despite what the US claims they are truly non-organized, plus America placed CIA trained people there "like bin-laden+friend" to fight against the Russians to defend the oil pipelines from being overtaken Markthemac 14:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions to improve this list

This is a very important list (especially nowadays) that, in my opinion, should be improved to become readable and informative and maybe reach FL status. Here's my opinion:

• To make it redable, include in this page only current or active organizations, and move the other ones to List of historical terrorist organizations or something like this.
• As for who should be listed, for NPOV, only the organizations that have been officially designated by a government, organizations, agency shoud be listed in this page... and all of course be backed up by references.
• In my opinion to avoid POV and ambiguities concerning ideologies (eg. Islamism vs Arab or Palestinian nationalism...) they should be listed alphabetically or by place (Europe, Middle-East...).
• Make it in a table form and include more informations. For example:

Designated terrorist organizations

Name	Place of origin	Founded	Leader	Designated by - This is probably the most important suggested improvement. Who's perspective are we using to class some organisations as terrorists, I suggest organisations designated as terrorist by th UN.
Hamas	West Bank, Gaza Strip	1987	Khaled Mashaal, Ismail Haniya	Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, United States
ETA (Basque Homeland and Freedom)	Spain and southern France (Basque Country	1959	Mikel Garikoitz Aspiazu Rubina "Txeroki"	Spain

Maybe an ideology column should be added also.

Your opinion is appreciated. CG 20:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. John Carter 15:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why are "Black Muslims" listed as a terrorist organization?

That's just absurd. That would be implying that all black Muslims are terrorists, which is obviously false. A quick search shows that the Zebra Murders that the black muslims are accused of in the article are more specifically attributed to a group within the NOI called the "Death Angels". A rewrite on that section would be appreciated.

-- Mik 23:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why that listing is there. It would be a very good idea if someone were to remove those names which aren't specifically referenced, and maybe add some of the organizations which have content on wikipedia which aren't yet listed. I might do so myself in the future, but my hands are kind of full right now with one or two other incomplete tasks. Any help from others though, would be greatly appreciated. John Carter 15:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If we start removing groups because they only did a handful of terrorist acts, or because only a handful of members engaged in terrorist acts, then the list would shrink significantly. I lean towards inclusiveness.Verklempt 23:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

In this case, perhaps including the "Death Angels", which are the specific group to have carried out the act, in the list, not "Black Muslims" per se, might be the best way to go. John Carter 16:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense, but a problem remains. The existence of the "Death Angels" as a subgroup of NOI is dubious, according to the experts on this subject. Meanwhile, the fact that the killers were all in the NOI is beyond doubt.Verklempt 17:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Right now, Death Angels redirects to Zebra murders. The content of that page indicates that the Death Angels were a group within the Nation of Islam. I think, if the Death Angels are the only terrorist group related to the Nation of Islam, that might be sufficient. If other related groups are also called "terrorist", then it might make sense to add a heading "Nation of Islam - related to "Death Angels" and other terrorist groups", with details of how the groups are related. John Carter 17:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Depends on how you apply the definition of terrorism. There are many other acts of violence by NOI subgroups, but mostly they are between different factions of NOI, or else part of criminal activity by NOI subgroups. I agree that the NOI as a body has not endorsed terrorist activities, at least not since they murdered Malcolm X.Verklempt 19:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What consitutes "designation"? (regarding the American Indian Movement)

There has been an ongoing debate on the American Indian Movement page as to whether AIM belongs in the Terrorism portal. This debate hinges on the inclusion of AIM in this list. According to Verklempt, the "designation was made back in the 70s" and is documented in The FBI Files on the American Indian Movement and Wounded Knee (a collection of FOIA releases); however, Verklempt acknowledges that s/he is "not sure the FBI's description qualifies as an official designation" and no other reference to the designation has been found.

So, what constitutes designation? Is the National Education Association a terrorist cell if the Education Secretary says so? Or is there a higher standard for official designation? If an internal FBI memo refers to a groups as terroristic or engaged in terrorism, is that casual opinionating or a bonafide designation? For that matter, must designations be public (as with the U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations)? - N1h1l 14:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say, considering the Education Secretary's later apologies and attempt to frame that statement as a non-serious joke, that that one clearly wouldn't. The problem I see regarding AIM, based on my own lack of knowledge, is the fact that I don't know of a list of Domestic Terrorist Organizations kept by the US government. If someone else does, I would think that inclusion in that list would be grounds to qualify. Also, there is I think the bigger question. Does this project deal exclusively with terrorist groups or does it deal with the broader subject of terrorist actions? If the latter, does any group which has engaged in one or more terrorist action qualify as a terrorist group? I have no idea of the answer to that question should be for the group, but think it's probably the most important one we have to deal with. My personal opinion would be that any group which has engaged in at least one major (yes, I know that's a weasel word, but I can't think of a better specific one) terrorist action could be covered by this project. Changing the project banner to reflect that the project deals with terrorist groups, terrorist actions, and allegations of either or both might be useful in this regard. John Carter 16:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear to me that the standard set by this page is official designation. If we stick with organizations that have been officially designated, it removes our POV from the equation. It is clear that the State Department list constitutes designation. It is equally clear that the remarks of the Ed Secretary do not. The question then becomes whether any given source is the official position of a noteworthy institution or the opinion of an individual. In the case of AIM, it is unclear as the context of Verklempt's citation is unknown (s/he has not yet given page numbers let alone an excerpt or direct quotation for those of us without access to the microfilm in question). - N1h1l 17:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I agree with the statement that as it stands inclusion on this page seems to require some form of official (presumably government) designation. Here again I reveal my ignorance, though. Do we think that the government describing an act as "terrorist" would be sufficient to include the group that performed that "terrorist" act on this list? Not trying to split hairs here, just trying to hopefully come up with an unambiguous lead of what qualifies for inclusion in the list. And I want to be clear that I'm not actually thinking about AIM itself here one way or another, just the terms for inclusion in the list. John Carter 17:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see each org unambiguously defined as a terrorist group by the UN, State Department, FBI, or European Union etc... Saying that X = terrorism and Y does X, so therefore Y is a terrorist group sounds like original research. - N1h1l 18:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see the definition of terrorist group changed from the current "designation" criterion to something less POV. There simply is no NPOV designating body. To label a group as "terrorist" is always a political act, in every instance. When governments define dissidents as "terrorist," it is always to gain a moral advantage.

My suggested alternative is instead of listing "terrorist" groups, we list groups that have engaged in terrorist acts. "Terrorist acts" can be more objectively defined than "terrorist groups." Any violent act against a non-military target for political purposes is a "terrorist act." We still have the POV issue of defining "political purposes," but that is an easier nut to crack than trying to penetrate the bias inherent in official designations.Verklempt 20:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like original research. - N1h1l 14:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about the original research aspect. Certainly, the standard indictment if any of any parties involved in such an act would include most of the data referenced above. I think this question, whether the word "terrorist" is to be applied as defining to groups or actions is probably the biggest one we've got in terms of the use of that word. I would grant that in some cases, like some totalitarian regimes, the statements of their governments might well be considered more than dubious. Does anyone have any ideas regarding how many groups who are not currently included in this list have committed actions which meet the criteria of terrorist activity as above? If the number of groups isn't increased substantially by changing from groups to activity, I'd say changing from terrorist organizations to terrorist activity might be the most effective and least controversial way to go. John Carter 16:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think that you are talking about a massive increase in controversy. When we start producing these judgments, we will stop editing and start editorializing. As I stated above, "X = terrorism and Y does X, so therefore Y is a terrorist group" is not acceptable per Wikipedia guidelines (see Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position). - N1h1l 16:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Permit me to clarify. If we were to change the list from a list of terrorist organizations to a list of organizations involved in terrorist acts, and defined the word terrorist specifically in the introduction, using the baseline agreement on the legal definition of the term as per Definition of terrorism, something along the lines of "criminal actitivity done for the purpose of intimidating or coercing a population or government", or just those cases where the language appropriate to the definition in that jurisdiction is substantively used, I don't see how that could in any way be seen as "advancing a position". Then, we would be taking the extant legal definition, or, in some cases, the subsequent legal definition, as defined in that jurisdiction. I don't see how that's "advancing a position", rather using the definition in place in that area. I would acknowledge that, in some cases where the reputation of a given government regarding legal matters is fairly regularly regarded by outside observers as being at best dubious, some sort of source other than the government itself might be sought, though. If I'm missing something, please indicate what it is. John Carter 17:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why, if a group is engaged in terrorism, a reliable source saying just that can't be found. Why must we synthesize the legal definitions of a jurisdiction with the activities of a group to derive these designations? That seems contrary to Wikipedia convention. If you disagree, that is fine. Maybe I am wrong, but I'd like to get some outside input from the Wikipedia community before we start making changes to the existing structure. - N1h1l 14:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't disagree. The problem lies in what constitutes a reliable source for these purposes. As with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Fascism, I think the word itself is sufficiently inciting of emotion that we might want to use our own specific definition of the term, although that definition would necessarily have to substantively agree with those of many other entities. I don't think however that using a definition wikipedia arrives at would necessarily constitute original research, if that definition substantively agrees with one or more of the existing definitions. Also, all I was basically trying to say above was that, if something meets a Duck test, like the existing legal definition in an area, it qualifies as being described by that term. Using such an probably currently existing definition would clearly not qualify as original research. John Carter 14:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Israel is recognised as a Terrorist state

Israel is recognised as a Terrorist state by various organisations and countries.

After the revolutionary gaurd of Iran was recognised as a Terrorist organisation by USA, Iran has (or is going to) recognise the CIA as a terroist organisation (and another military body of USA i cannot currently remember)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States-Iran_relations#Possible_IRGC_terrorist_designation_by_the_United_States —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiloe (talk • contribs) 21:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)