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Talk:Silesian (Polish language)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 82.82.117.221 (talk) at 15:12, 4 November 2003. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Upper Silesian inhabitant of or related to the region of Upper Silesia in southern Poland

Okay, I've based my creation of the two pages, Upper Silesian and Lower Silesian language on the Ethnologue report for both. I also looked at the UNESCO red book of languages and no Silesian language was listed, so it was little or no help.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=SLI
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=PQL

I'm willing to discuss the possibility that Upper Silesian or whatever you want to call it is a separate Slavic language rather than a dialect of Polish, but for now, please leave the page here while we discuss it -- I think we can figure out the appropriate name for the English Wikipedia page along the way (bear in mind that the name may be different in English than it is locally in Poland, Germany, etc.). I have no credible neutral sources of information except for Ethnologue so that would be useful here. I'm tired of watching people from the general region go back and forth at each other about whether this or that is a language or a dialect, so it has to be a credible neutral source. Daniel Quinlan 00:00, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

Here a list of hints

1. Silesian is a polish dialect

At http://www.haus.pl/de/presse/presse38.html (house of german-polish cooperation, in german) the interviewer says, that she does not know any linguist, who would say, Silesian is a language. Instead it is a dialect. The interviewed person, leader of the Silesian independece movement Kluczniok says it is, but he knows that linguists do not have found an agreement wheater it is a language or not. I doubt he is more independent than the interviewer. In the interview it is not definitely said, wheater Silesian is germanic or slavic, but I assume from the way Kluczniok argues, the polish "dialect" is meant, because he argues wheater he speaks polish or silesian. Furthermore, I speak german and have been to Poland's Silesia and everbody for me spoke polish.

2. Silesian is a german dialect

At http://www.kmosler.de/Sprache/Woerterlisten/OS-Woerter.html a word list of "Oberschlesisch" can be found. It obviously consists of german words, just with a little change in orthography. "Oberschlesisch" literally means "Upper Silesian". At http://www.parlinkom.gv.at/pd/pad/kb/kb01304.html it is said, that Robert Preußler wrote poetry in "deutsch-schlesischer Mundart" (literally: "german-silesian dialect"). I.e. at http://www.ullstein-realschule-fuerth.de/unterricht/lernzirkel_hauptmann/lehr-info3.html it is said, that Hauptmann wrote texts in "schlesische Mundart" (silesian dialect). In Germany everbody has to read the uneasy readable, but german dialect, written by Hauptmann.

--> At least in german the term "Silesian dialect" seems to stand both for the german and the polish regional dialect. The german silesian dialect definitely is not a language, because it is unterstandable as every other german dialects I know. In case of the polish silesian dialect I can't say so, since I don't speak polish. But, the interview gave me the impression, that "Silesian Language" is used by the silesian independent movement, but not by linguists.

I propose the following entries:

  1. Silesian Language: No WP-Entry, since it does not seem to exist.
  2. Silesian Dialect: Page that describes that there is a german-silesian and a polish-silesian dialect, which are linkes.
  3. Polish-Silesian Dialect: Page about the dialect spoken in Silesia today.
  4. German-Silesian Dialect: Page about the nearly died off german language formerly spoken in Silesia when it belonged to Germany.

Steven 82.82.117.221 03:09, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Steven, I completely disagree based on what I have read.

  1. Silesian language should redirect to Silesian (and it does)
  2. Silesian dialect could be a redirect to Silesian if it is necessary at all, I don't think it is necessary
  3. Polish-Silesian is a non-NPOV title and should just redirect to Silesian (and it does)
  4. German-Silesian seems the same as Lower Silesian which already exists as a page. Perhaps we should rename that article (I suspect more and more that Ethnologue is very confused about these two things) and just add to the content if we actually had more substantial material than the Ethnologue entry.

Daniel Quinlan 05:46, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

No, in german Schlesisch (literally Silesian) is the generic term of literally translated Upper and Lower Silesian. Since Lower Silesia was much bigger and sometimes was called just Schlesien (without Lower), the term sometimes was not Niederschlesisch but Schlesisch.

Upper and Lower Silesia are historic areas in Poland. In both german was and polish is the used language. It is nonsense to call Upper Silesian a polish dialect and Lower Silesian a german dialect, since both terms stand both for a german and a polish dialect as I already posted. There are 4 (!) dialects, two german and two polish ones. I have Silesian relatives as I already told, and my father lived in Poland until about 1958. IF in english your distinction reallys is used by linguists, then both polish and german people would doubt it, because viewed from both perspectives, Lower and Upper Silesian are dialects of their languages and the distinction between a polish Upper Silesian and a german Lower Silesian has nothing in common with historical facts. Steven 82.82.117.221 12:39, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

To be consequent: "Silesian language" should be used instead of "Silesian", like "English language" or "French language".

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