Talk:Chip Berlet/Archive 1

The connections with Dennis King are not "implied;" they are documented. There is even a photo, for the skeptical. --Herschelkrustofsky 11:49, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I removed a number of anti-Berlet POV statements, the repeated use of the word "attack." and unattributed and/or unverifiable LaRouchite allegations about his ideology from Herschelkrustofsky at al. as part of the attemp to add LaRouche research into Wikipedia (see also Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche#Findings_of_fact)

In terms of being unattibuted or unverifiable (other than on LaRoucite websites) see these Google searches:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chicago+Friends+of+Albania%22&btnG=Search&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22populist+producerism%22&btnG=Google+Search

BCorr|Брайен 13:43, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Nota bene: none of the material you removed came from LaRouche or myself. I find it ironic that you apply exactly the opposite standard to this article, that you have applied in editing Lyndon LaRouche. I also modified your formulation on the relationship between Berlet, and John Rees and Richard Mellon Scaife. Your formulation conveyed the implication that Berlet was using them as sources, when in fact, they were funding and encouraging his efforts as members of the same anti-LaRouche "task force". --Herschelkrustofsky 14:30, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bcorr, you clearly wish the article to tip-toe around the relationship between Berlet and his sponsors. Why is that? --Herschelkrustofsky 21:28, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is your point of view that there was an anti-LaRouche "task force" -- that is not a fact but an opinion. My goal is simply to keep that clear. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 17:34, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Really? How would you describe it? --Herschelkrustofsky 06:07, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hi,

Quite a bit of the text formerly posted on this page was simply false. And most of the false information originated from the LaRouche organization, although it gets laundered around on the Internet.

Note two salient facts. 1) LaRouche is a convicted felon. 2). When LaRouche sued me for defamation--he lost.

In his "affidavit," LaRouche agent Herb Quinde couldn't even get the year of the NY meeting I attended correct. In a recent smear, A LaRouche pamphlet has me working for the National Student Association more than five years before I was employed by the group, in order to falsely claim I worked with the group while it was secretly being manipulated by the CIA.

I support the idea of a collective encyclopedia, but folks need to be aware of how fanatic groups and their supporters can abuse the process. I note that the current editors are trying their best to be even handed.

Chip Berlet

p.s. What type of total idiot would make a big deal over the name my parents gave me--a name I rejected when I began to use my nickname "Chip" during my work in the antiwar movement--a name I wanted to distance myself from, because John Foster Dulles was an architect of the Cold War. This is a prime example of why conspiracism is a pointless waste of time. Am I supposed to be complicit in naming myself? What garbage.

I wouldn't blame Chip for the name he was given -- but it is an eerie coincidence, given that Mark Evans accuses him of "Left-wing McCarthyism." Also, Chip's edits are a bit on the self-promotional side. Wikipedia frowns on that. --Herschelkrustofsky 06:05, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Bcorr, both you and Berlet seem to find the Train meetings to be something of an embarassment, and you wish to finesse the content of the article. This is not a matter of POV, but simply of factual accuracy. All the attendees were LaRouche opponents, whether from the left, the right, or the press. Berlet does not deny that the attendees were LaRouche opponents. If Berlet wishes to characterize it as a "debate", I won't object, but there was certainly no pro-LaRouche side to that debate, and to insinuate that there was is misleading to the reader. --Herschelkrustofsky 06:15, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I see that an anonymous editor has made a number of significant changes recently. While this is not a topic I am conversant in, I can easily verify one deleted detail, that the book Eyes Right! won a Gustavus Myers Award. Why was this information deleted? It is subjective and is fully NPOV. Willmcw 00:37, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not "significant changes", but restoring some of the material that was changed or edited out here by Chip Berlet, and by somebody who is apparently a supporter of his. As it was, the article looked like a puff piece intended to stroke Berlet's ego, and giving the false impression that the only criticism of Berlet comes from Lyndon LaRouche-aligned sources. That is decidedly not the case. There are many on the left who believe his behavior from 1991 on has been disruptive, tends toward guilt-by-association and blacklisting tactics rather than serious criticism, is based more on identity politics than on anything resembling either liberalism or an old-left class based analysis, and often involves Berlet injecting some of his own unorthodox political formulations into his analysis (such as his favorite bugaboo, "centrist/extremist theory", his other bugaboos like "conspiracism" and "apocalypticism", and his belief that mainstream society and indeed mainstream liberalism is inherently racist, sexist, etc.)

If the article is going to mention awards his books have received, making him sound like some kind of saint, it should at least also mention that some believe his books are full of bad analysis and disinformation.

The answer is not to anonymously delete factual information that you don't like. Instead, add additional information that balances it. And please get yourself a user name. Making anonymous attacks on others is cowardly and does not give your opinions credibility. Willmcw 00:18, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I understand that I have critics, but when people delete factual information and post false information it violates the basic purpose of Wickipedia.

"Wilcox also makes the observation that Political Research Associates is a three-person operation, with Berlet serving as both president, and the only analyst on staff."

This was factually false when it was written, and it is outlandishly false today. I have never served as president of PRA. Today PRA has a full-time staff of eight.

Out of basic fairness is it too much to ask that my entry be balanced by having criticism and support be roughly equal?

-Chip Berlet

Chip, I'm happy to see you come around to balance and fairness, so late in the game. It reminds me of Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol." But it may take some time for you to get used to the concept. For example, if you are labelling your opponents "right-wing" you should not call yourself "progressive." You could either cut to the chase and say the your think-tank is "left-wing", or you could find a warm and fuzzy euphemism like "conservative" for your opponents. Weed Harper 07:05, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chip responds: This is exactly the type of biased person attack posing as a call to be unbiased that I am objecting to. Only a tiny handful of critics object to my work, compared to the dozens of editors of print and electronic media in commercial and alternative outlets who consider my work fair and balanced. Political Research Associates has picked the term "progressive" to describe our work. I call people who are conservative "conservative." I call fascists and antisemites with their proper name. I have defended my terminology in court and in numerous publications in popular and academic media.--Cberlet 23:14, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi,

The version I edited removed text that was just not accurate, and I left in all the criticism, merely adding material that balanced the page.

A fair page on me would contain about 90% positive and factual material and at most 10% negative comments. In the real world, the number of my critics is actually very tiny.

All I am asking for here is that the negative criticsm be balanced 50/50.

Let's have a discussion of this with everyone participating openly. No more anonymous deletions and edits. --Cberlet 14:51, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Added NPOV flag --Cberlet 15:08, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chip, your self-descriptive edits read like a resumé. You should carefully examine Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms, and realize that Wikipedia is an entirely different world than your own websites: you can't just practice your vocation as a mud-slinger-for-hire here, and expect a free pass from criticism in the article on yourself. Your Yogi Berra-like request that the article "contain about 90% positive... and at most 10% negative comments," and "that the negative criticsm be balanced 50/50" is probably unrealistic. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, you are breaking the wikipedia rule against personal attacks. AndyL 22:58, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I did not add an entry for myself here at Wickipedia. What I object to is an entry that contains false information, and which is overwhelmingly negative. I object to harsh criticism being posted in large blocks while the fact that two of my books won human rights awards gets deleted repeatedly. I think it is fair to start out by listing the factual history of my work, and then go into the details valued by my critics. But even in those sections I think it is fair for there to be some balance between the negative criticism and material that rebuts it or adds a more nuanced dimension. I recognize this is awkward, but I am tired of seeing material that is just wrong, and which in some cases is actually false, malicious, and defamatory. I am choosing to follow the rules posted here for resolving a dispute. I will do my best to avoid personal attacks, and hope others will do the same.

So here is a question. What is wrong with suggesting that an entry on me contain no more than 50% negative criticism? I actually don't think that is fair--it is biased toward the negative--but I am willing to compromise to start with to see this matter discussed collectively within the terms of the Wikipedia community. --Cberlet 21:11, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sources?

Is http://www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html a public domain source? It seems like chunks of text are being copied from there and pasted onto this page with little or no editing. -Willmcw 00:09, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Among those they met with were John Rees, of the John Birch Society; Roy Godson, then a consultant to the National Security Council and the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB); Mira Lansky Boland, head of fact-finding at the Washington, D.C. offices of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith; at least one representative of Freedom House, a private research organization headed by PFIAB Chairman Leo Cherne; Richard Mellon-Scaife, a wealthy Pittsburgh businessman notorious for contributing millions of dollars to right-causes (his foundation came under federal criminal investigation for illegally financing the arming of the Nicaraguan Contras, and he later became involved the Paula Jones case, and other activities intended to discredit President Bill Clinton); and several dozen journalists from major national media outlets, including NBC-TV, Readers Digest, Business Week, The New Republic and The Wall Street Journal.

According to eyewitness accounts, participants at the three Train salon meetings included Roy Godson, then a consultant to the National Security Council and the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board; John Rees, a longtime FBI informant; Mira Lansky Boland, head of Fact Finding at the Washington, D.C. offices of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith; at least one representative of Freedom House, a private research organization headed by PFIAB Chairman Leo Cherne; Richard Mellon Scaife, a wealthy Pittsburgh businessman whose tax-exempt foundation would later come under federal criminal investigation for illegally financing the arming of the Nicaraguan Contras; and several dozen journalists from major national media outlets, including NBC-TV, Readers Digest, Business Week, The New Republic and The Wall Street Journal.

From the front page of [Executive Intelligence Review http://www.larouchepub.com]: "All rights reserved © 2004 EIRNS." This is a copyright violation and needs to be replaced. DanKeshet 22:53, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

Who is Mark Evans?

Mark Evans is quoted at length in this article, and is described as a journalist. What newspaper does he write for? I can't find any credentials for him. Is he more than just a blogger? Also, at least one whole paragraph seems to be a quote of Evans on LaRouche - shouldn't that be in the La Rouche article? -Willmcw 22:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The LaRouche-oriented paragraph was put in by Bcorr, who wanted to rebut Evans's comments on Berlet. Weed Harper 02:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I moved the LaRouche-oriented paragraph to the Lyndon LaRouche article. But I still haven't seen any evidence that Evans has any credentials. I can't find any biographical info on his website. Does he even call himself a journalist? -Willmcw 22:19, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Herschelkrustofsky edit is biased

What Herschelkrustofsky has done is rewrite whole sections of this page in a way thay highlights the highly biased claims of LaRouche and his tiny handful of supporters. If this page is going to be a forum where LaRouche supporters raise their criticisms of me (whis is profoundly unfair to begin with) then the least that can be agreed upon is that material that challenges their biased view is not deleted or rewritten in a way that primarily reflects the views of LaRouche. Factual error: Rees did not pay King's expenses. Biased claim: my work on LaRouche is a minor part of my writing, and it is simply not true to say that my articles about LaRouche are what brought me to the attention of a wider audience. --Cberlet 20:23, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting my error with respect to Rees paying King's expenses. It is your expenses that are of primary interest here. However, I think it is debatable whether you would have ever been published in the more mainstream media, were it not for your collaboration in the anti-LaRouche effort. And with respect to my allegedly biased edit, I changed very little -- primarily I reorganized it so that it is more coherent. The primary change has been your removal of the anti-LaRouche comments by Mark Evans, which were put in by editor Bcorr as a rebuttal to Evan's critique of you. I have no objection, however. --H.K. 01:11, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chip responds: No, H.K. the result of what you did was to highlight the LaRouche version of events and call my claims into question. This was done through subtle deletions and additions. Instead of being named as a defendant in the LaRouche defamation case I was reduced to a "party." LaRouche is portrayed as losing the case due to a judge's action instead of losing the case in front of a jury. etc. And you deleted this line: "most of this controvery is the result of a handful of industrious LaRouche staff and LaRouche supporters trying to discredit Berlet's criticism of LaRouche." This is as defensible as many of the exotic claims by the LaRouche supporters in this entry. --Cberlet 04:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please stop inserting unsubstantiated LaRouchite claims

Let's examine some recent insertions...

"While the vast majority of material written by Berlet makes no mention of Lyndon LaRouche, in the 1970s and 1980s, Berlet became known as a critic of LaRouche."

No, I wrote articles. Known by whom?

"Berlet wrote reports and articles on LaRouche for several magazines and newspapers, including High Times magazine, which claimed LaRouche had a right-wing agenda and was an antisemite and fascist (the High Times article was subtitled "They want to take your drugs away.")"

It was a sub subheading which I did not write. It does not belong on this page.

"In 1984, LaRouche filed an unsuccessful civil libel suit against NBC, the Anti-Defamation League, Dennis King, and Berlet. LaRouche lost the case and the jury awarded damages from a counter-suit to NBC News, after Federal Judge James Catcheris ruled that the defendants could rely upon anonymous sources."

There is no causal or legal relationship between a jury ruling against LaRouche and the ruling of the federal judge on the use of anonymous sources. None. It was a defamation case. We stated our opinions of LaRouche and they were ruled by a jury to be fair comment.

LaRouche supporters need to discuss what they want to insert on this page before adding unsubstantiated material from LaRouche sources. --Cberlet 17:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the idea for the subheading was yours or not, it appeared in the magazine, so it is not an "unsubstantiated claim." Also, your claim that the judge's ruling had no bearing on the outcome of the case is preposterous. In a libel case, the defendants are responsible for the truth or falsity of the accusations they publish. However, if the judge permits them to simply attribute the accusations to anonymous sources, the defendants are off the hook. You may argue that the ruling did not materially affect the jury's decision -- good luck on that -- but you certainly may not argue that the judge's ruling was an "unsubstantiated claim." --HK 21:27, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If Berlet didn't write the subheading, then there is no point in including it. It might be useful to include the title of the article, or a quote from it. Regarding the assertion about the judge's ruling, what substantiation do you have for that claim? Do you have a transcript? What is your source of information? -Willmcw 22:24, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, I don't know anything about the particular facts of this case. This is just a general response to what you wrote above. The sources of an allegation are largely irrelevant in defamation cases. It is the accuracy and fairness of the allegation itself that is examined. Slim 22:28, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Will is correct, Herschel. If you want to mention the anonymous sources ruling, you'll have to either quote from the transcripts to show this happened, or cite an article about the case that was published in a reputable publication and that mentions the anonymous sources issue. Slim 22:38, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Berlet admits that the ruling happened, and as a defendant in the case, he ought to be considered a source. I think that Slim is wrong about defamation cases: "in the law of defamation (libel and slander), a personage of great public interest or familiarity like a government official, politician, celebrity, business leader, movie star or sports hero. Incorrect harmful statements published about a public figure cannot be the basis of a lawsuit for defamation unless there is proof that the writer or publisher intentionally defamed the person with malice (hate)." [1] If journalist claims that he was merely quoting another (anonymous) party, then the journalist cannot be considered malicious. Weed Harper 14:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is not my understanding of how the law of defamation works. The definition above is very superficial and not complete. There is the matter of "reckless disregard of the truth." We should be cautious about debating the law without an attorney in the discussion.

As I recall the court case (and I was in it at the beginning until the judge got fed up with the LaRouche antics in the depositions and cut me and King out of the case) the issue of anonymous sources had to do with demands by the LaRouche attorneys to conduct depositions of the anonymous sources. This would have required the judge to waive the applicable journalist shield laws (complicated by the fact that this would have involved multiple state laws since this was a multi-state civil action filed in a federal court). It is unusual for a judge to waive a shield law, although it does happen. The NBC attorney claimed the reporters should be covered by the New York shield law (legal origin of the broadcast), which is a strong one.

LaRouche's central claim of defamation was based on statements or implications on the NBC program that LaRouche was a crook, a cult leader, a lunatic, and a "small-time Hitler" with followers who often acted like thugs. That LaRouche is a crook has been demonstrated by his conviction. There is a public record of thuggery. The rest are opinions that are protected as fair comment as long as there is no prior knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard of the truth (which is what the term "malice" actually means in the law of defamation). See http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072492171/student_view0/chapter5/chapter_overview.html

The Jury had to base its findings on the evidence presented in court. They could decide whether or not the reliance by the reporters at NBC on anonymous sources was malicious or reckless. They decided it was not. This is another example of the LaRouchites creating a smokescreen for their illegal and tawdry activities by claiming some sort of a conspiracy or official misconduct. They do this by littering the trail with red herrings, assuming that most people will not fact check their claims. Credulous supporters then accept the LaRouchite claims as fact--a serious error of faith trumping skepticism. --Cberlet 15:38, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But the sources were surely only anonymous as far as the Court and the LaRouche people were concerned. The NBC reporters and probably NBC's lawyers would have known who they were.

Also, Weed, Chip can't act as a source for this information for Wikipedia, as strange as that sounds. Everything in a Wikipedia article must be easily verifiable by any Wikipedia reader, and that usually means must have been published somewhere else already. So any information in the article about the trial must come from a newspaper report about it. Slim 18:28, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Slim is correct. I cannot be the Wiki source. Here is what is online from the Washington Post. "The jury found that NBC had not libeled LaRouche but that his organization had tried to sabotage a network interview with Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y.) The jury awarded NBC more than $3 million in damages." There are numerous print articles that are not online, but from which I can extract text. --Cberlet 18:59, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Propose Moving Train Meeting Info?

The material on several pages relating to LaRouche is often redundant. I propose moving the section on this page on the John Train meetings to the US v. LaRouche page. There is no point in having this same material in several places. It takes up space and makes a serious debate over the merits of the text cumbersome. --Cberlet 15:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Train meeting info is not merely of interest to the LaRouche legal case. It underscores something that is essential to an understanding of Lyndon LaRouche's role in politics, that being that he has been the target of one of the most massive propaganda campaigns in post-WWII history. The fact that you, Chip, played a role in that propaganda campaign, is essential to an understanding of your own role in politics, and your desire to expunge it from your own Wikipedia article is understandable, while also self-serving and unacceptable. --HK 15:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have moved the details of the Train meeting. United States v. LaRouche--Cberlet 16:25, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Heads Up

I've changed the opening sentences of "Berlet as a Critic of LaRouche" to read the following:

"While the vast majority of material written by Berlet makes no mention of Lyndon LaRouche, in the 1970s and 1980s, Berlet wrote reports and articles on LaRouche for several magazines and newspapers. These articles claimed LaRouche had a right-wing agenda and was an antisemite and fascist."

The reference to High Times in the original, among all the magazines in which such articles were published the sole one specially noted, seems to me to be POV, and unnecessarily detracts from the validity of such work by association with a less-credible publication. Also, the word 'which' as previously used left doubt as to whether the articles or news organizations regarded LaRouche in this manner - the revision corrects that error. Wally 03:18, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

HK's last edit

This additional quote is unnecessary and does not add anything of substance to what the article already says. I'm removing it. Wally 23:03, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The quote from Daniel Brandt which Wally removed (I couldn't for the life of me understand his edit summary) was the following -- perhaps others would care to comment:

"It is simple common sense for all of us to be aware of who associates with whom; for this reason Berlet's research is also valuable. But I have a problem with his presumption that a moral issue is involved, and I object to his tactics. Don't ever trade information, participate on a panel discussion, or share membership on an advisory board with one of Berlet's designated bad guys. If you do, he may try to undermine your work and isolate you. In my book, that's suggestive of the very 'neo-fascism' he's trying so hard to eliminate.[2]

--HK 23:16, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Forgive my edit summary — due to space constraints it was not clear, and I ought to have posted it here. What I said was that the I was going to keep the website you provided at the end of the quotes; however going there and reading the content (which described Berlet's writing as a "diatribe", and which sort of comment in a link does not gain my approval) I decided it, too, added nothing to the article. What redeeming feature does this quote have, may I ask, that the rest of the article does not cover? Wally 23:36, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that the quote is significant, because Brandt, who is generally regarded as a neutral observer and has not, to my knowledge, been one of Berlet's targets, is suggesting that Berlet's tactics are reminiscent of the 'neo-fascism' that Berlet purports to oppose. Again, I would like to see some input here from a non-partisan editor. --HK 16:11, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I took the liberty of offering the complete paragraph, including the sentence you excised:

"NameBase indexed this diatribe because Berlet's work is unique. It is simple common sense for all of us to be aware of who associates with whom; for this reason Berlet's research is also valuable. But I have a problem with his presumption that a moral issue is involved, and I object to his tactics. Don't ever trade information, participate on a panel discussion, or share membership on an advisory board with one of Berlet's designated bad guys. If you do, he may try to undermine your work and isolate you. In my book, that's suggestive of the very 'neo-fascism' he's trying so hard to eliminate."

Now I will confess that I know precious little about who Daniel Brandt is and what his motivations are. However, given that he describes the author-in-question's writing as a "diatribe", I can hardly see how he "is generally regarded as a neutral observer". What's more, he is not writing on his own, but on behalf of NameBase, which from what I have read of it and on its site seems to be blatantly biased. So what if he's not been "one of Berlet's targets"? Just because, for example, the CIA has never come after me, does not mean that I can be counted upon to be an impartial, objective observer of their activities. This quote has no place, and Daniel Brandt is already cited at some length. Wally 18:05, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt is not a reputable source. He is an extreme leftwing activist and conspiracy theorist. He soaks up any material people send to him so long as it suits his ideology and incorporates it into Namebase. He's the author of Google Watch. Slim 21:57, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Slim, outside of this article, would you consider Chip Berlet a reputable source? Just out of curiosity. --HK 22:13, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Biased Misrepresentation

Here is what was posted:

Berlet's views are frequently featured by columnist Matthew Continetti of the neoconservative Weekly Standard, attacking various figures on the Left who are deemed guilty of "conspiracism", the most recent target being Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney.[3]

Here are the actual quotes from the article:

Chip Berlet, who studies conspiracism as a senior analyst at Public Research Associates, a progressive group, told me that Ruppert speaks regularly to sold-out crowds.

"It's a sinkhole," said Chip Berlet, when I first asked him about these conspiracy theories.

He sounded a note of regret about McKinney. "A lot of McKinney's complaints about the government are standard progressive fare."

So, what are the facts? I confirmed that Ruppert spoke to large crowds, I called conspiracism about 9/11 a "sinkhole," and I pointed out that a lot of what McKinney has said about government misconduct was standard progressive fare-which was meant to be supportive of her.

This is not what was implied in the posting I deleted. This was an attempt to use guilt by association to imply that the views of the author of the article are my views. Also I am not "frequently" quoted in the Weekly Standard, (another attempt at guilt by association). The posting I deleted is a clear case of a biased misrepresentation. --Cberlet 06:45, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My search of the Weekly Standard site shows only one article that mentions Chip Berlet.[4] The quotes from the article are accurately copied above. Therefore I agree that the content that editor user:cberlet removed was spurious. The mistake is so pronounced that I question why user:Weed Harper composed it in the first place.-Willmcw 09:04, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I found one other example[5] that the Standard didn't archive. It appears that Continetti does talk to Berlet occasionally, but I think Weed may be making a mountain out of a molehill on this one. --HK 14:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky Interference

Herschelkrustofsky's reversion is unfair and creates much repetition. This page was over length. The discussion of the Train meeting belongs in the United States v. LaRouche page because the LaRouche people themselves claim it is central to his prosecution, a claim that is disputed. It makes no sense to have the same material on two or three pages. My edit included a mention of the Train meeting and a link to its new location United States v. LaRouche. This is blatant pro-LaRouche propaganda and interference; not fair and accurate editing. I protest. --Cberlet 16:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This material belongs on the Chip Berlet page; it is the clearest example of why Berlet has as many critics as he does. Despite Berlet's frequent attacks on prominent leftists whom he accuses of fraternizing with rightists, Berlet himself did not hesitate to collaborate (although Berlet prefers to characterize it as "debating") with Richard Mellon Scaife and John Rees, when it suited his purposes. And although Chip may wish to dispute it, what reputation he does have is largely the outcome of his high-profile campaign against LaRouche, which was promoted by influential circles and gave Chip access to an audience outside of his previous, rather small domain in the student Left.

This article is a bit messy and certainly needs work, but I would argue that the Train material is essential. I am posting a Request for Comment, in hopes that some relatively neutral editors can contribute to the discussion. Chip's motives for wishing to exclude the Train material are somewhat transparent.

--HK 22:12, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The simple fact that, as you note in your edit explanation and in your above, this train meeting bit is "essential to understanding how Berlet operates" shows that you are not approaching the article with an unbiased mind and are not serious about painting a fair picture of the subject. I will say that given the fact that the article is about a Wikipedia member actively taking part in the article means that we have a pair of mutually-exclusive extremes here — however, your edits, and the fact that in explaining them you personally address the article's subject as though it was a personal dogfight, invalidate any sort of encyclopedic intent that you may or may not have.

The train meeting, I feel, should be cited within the article, as it is a significant event relating to the subject. The length at which it is cited, however, including the recitation of the various characters present, is an attempt to smear the subject in view of the company he may or may not have shared on this one occasion. If no one can defend this inclusion - which has been repeatedly objected to and removed by a number of users - within 12 hours, I will remove it. This is coming to the point where measures need to be taken to ensure this page does not become a model for distortion and argumentum ad hominem - measures beyond requests for comment. Wally 22:20, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wally, what you refer to as "the recitation of the various characters present" is not there for, as you suggest, guilt by association. In fact, that rather astonishing conglomeration of leftists, rightists, government operatives and media figures indicates that Berlet was involved in something far bigger than simply running his website or writing articles.

However, I agree that the discussion is overly polarized and dominated by partisanship, which is why I posted a Request for Comment. --HK 22:41, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You miss my point, however. You seem to be more concerned about proving a conspiracy than finding the truth. Just because the meeting was populated by people of a number of people with vastly-differing politics does not mean that it was a conspiracy to bring down Lyndon LaRouche. The fact that we spend so much time talking about it lends the article that notion - it's not just about unbiased WORDS, but unbiased TREATMENT, and proportionality. I would be fine if we excised everything after "Berlet has stated repeatedly the meeting that he attended was a debate where left-wing critics of LaRouche were asked by right-wing critics to present and defend their claims about LaRouche's spying and fascist tendencies..." The rest is barely-pertinent, and the meetings should probably have a page of their own for a more in-depth discussion. Any other setup is not appropriate. Wally 23:03, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What I don't understand is: if the Train meetings were so important, how come there is no reference to them in the articles on the other participants? If it shows that Berlet has a special bias then doesn't it also show that the Wall Street Journal, NBC, Richard Mellon Scaife, etc., share the same bias? -Willmcw 04:24, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw's point is well taken, although it could be argued that the "Get LaRouche task force" was the high point of Berlet's career, which cannot be said of Mellon Scaife (who played an equally prominent role in the "Get Clinton task force", the Iran-Contra affair, and other capers) or the various press that were involved.

With respect to Wally's comments, at one point it was indeed suggested that there being an article on the John Train Salon, which I thought was unnecessary, although in the last 24 hours Chip has been busily deleting and moving the Train material all over the place, and it may be that a seperate article is going to be the compromise solution. It really makes no sense to discuss the meetings without mentioning the participants; Berlet clearly wishes to downplay the significance of the meetings, but the list of attendees (and particularly the host, who hasn't been discussed much here, but who is a real behind-the-scenes mover and shaker) tells the real story. --HK 16:19, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Quite frankly, speaking for myself I don't much care about "the real story". I care about writing an unbiased, or, failing that, nonbiased article. Either you have something concrete or you don't. If you don't, it gets passing mention as a suspicion held by some. If you do, it is reported based on its importance. Had you any concrete information, it would be quite important. However, at present the "concrete information" seems to be a following:

There was a meeting at which Chip Berlet was present.
Various figures — some major, some really not — from both the left and the right were present.
Lyndon LaRouche was the topic of discussion at the meeting.

That's it. I couldn't falsify a respectable conspiracy out of that if I tried. The idea that out of only this information we are going to get the origins of a massive anti-LaRouche offensive — especially when the courts couldn't prove it — is a little silly. Frankly I'm doubtful a page about the meeting is necessary. I just want a solution that stops this... discussion here. Precious little of that Train meeting is worthy of note here, and it hardly seems to have been the pivotal event in Berlet's life that your revision makes it out to be. You've added this before, it's been removed before. What solution is to be got from all this? Wally 18:12, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contrary to the assertion of HK, all I did was to take repetitive information on the Train meetings from two pages, one of which was already too long, and consolidate the material into a section of an already exisitng third page where is was appropriate to the specific (and disputed) claims of the LaRouche supporters about the criminal cases. I actually think the Train meeting should simply be a pro-LaRouche link on some page other than mine. The meeting has been blown out of proportion by LaRouche supporters. The new page created by HK on the Train meetings now contains false information, and HK has deleted some specific criticisms of LaRouche and rebutal to LaRouche claims. --Cberlet 18:25, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Things We Forget...

I've just noticed that something crucially important is missing from this page. Cookie to the first person who finds it. Wally 18:32, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Birth year/place? -Willmcw 00:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hmm . . . let's see . . . Could it be: Truth? Facts? Sources? NPOV? :-) Slim 00:39, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Slim, it's much more embarassing — Willmcw got it. We are so bloody busy haggling about notions tangental to this page that we, myself included, have failed to endow it with what even the most puerile biographies have - birthdate.

Perhaps this — and I think it's quite mortifying — will inspire all of us to work at improving the article rather than our own rhetorical skills. Mr. Berlet, could either you or HK (who seems to know you quite well himself) kindly fill in the missing information? Wally 01:38, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

LOL There's a lesson in that. :-)

I found a couple of points on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view page that might help with the further editing of this page. (1) "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." And (2) "Writing unbiasedly can be conceived very well as representing disputes, characterizing them, rather than engaging in them. One can think of unbiased writing as the cold, fair, analytical description of debates."

I feel that the dispute is being "engaged in" on this page, rather than being "characterized". I also feel that the views of Berlet's LaRouche critics are in a minority, and probably a tiny minority, and therefore should not be represented as though those views represent a large or mainstream minority position. Slim 02:41, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Bravo, dear boy! :) Wally 05:37, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wally, you're welcome to join in. :-) Slim 23:00, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Chip, I'd like to use the photograph of you at http://www.publiceye.org/berlet/chip.jpg Do you know who owns the copyright and how I can get permission? Slim 00:18, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Chip has agreed to my proposal that he, Herschelkrustofsy and Weed Harper should stop editing this article, but Herschelkrustofsky does not agree, and Weed Harper has not responded. Nevertheless, Willmcw and I are going to try to edit Chip Berlet and make it NPOV. Herschel, that is not an article "closely related" to LaRouche within the terms of ArbCom, so you are not allowed to engage in an edit war by reinserting LaRouche material. The fact that Chip has been a LaRouche critic will not be left out but it is not his only defining feature. Chip, can you direct us to any published material about yourself, good or bad, apart from LaRouche publications? Herschel, can you direct us to any non-LaRouche published material about Chip?

Slim, your proposal is meaningless unless you also offer not to edit LaRouche related articles, because you are an anti-LaRouche editor. Also, you do not propose that Berlet stop editing articles on LaRouche. Also, there is no LaRouche-sourced material in the Berlet article, so what are you going to remove? Weed Harper 01:27, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi, PRA owns the copyright to the photo, and you have permission to use it on Wikipedia as long as you preserve the copyright notice and say used by permission. --Cberlet 03:36, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Chip. Slim 04:05, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

I plan to have a look at this more thoroughly before the weekend is out, but on the face of it this seems a vast improvement over the previous version. Great job thus far, all. Wally 05:47, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Wally. Feel free, of course, to make changes as you see fit. Best, Slim 05:51, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Problems

The ArbComm ruling on LaRouche related submissions was quite specific that LaRouche supporters shouldn't be inserting LaRouche related info (and particularly not LaRouche "original research") to non-LaRouche articles. While I know Chip Berlet is a huge hate figure in the LaRouche cosmology he really is not a LaRouche related figure. There can be a passing mention of his LaRouche work but it shouldn't be a major part of the article. Criticism of Berlet's LaRouche related work really belongs in the LaRouche articles themselves, not here. As well, it is not the role of wikipedia to be the vehicle for smear jobs of LaRouche enemies. I'm going to re-edit the article. If LaRouche material reappears I will take it to the ArbComm for enforcement of last year's ruling. AndyL 18:37, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've done a rewrite of this page to make it conform more to Wikipedia style on biographies. A couple of editors have looked at it already. One feels that the Criticism section should not be separate, but should be incorporated into the main text. I have no problem with that, though I would prefer it to be separate. I've yet to write a References section, which I'll do within the next few hours so long as I can get pages to load. I deleted the Laird Wilcox criticism, as it didn't amount to much (it seemed to have been taken from a blurb for his Watchdog report, and not from the report itself, and so it promised that there would be criticism, but then didn't say what it was); I'll look for a better Wilcox quote and insert that instead. I kept Daniel Brandt, not because I feel he's a credible source, but because there's so little published criticism of Berlet, that I felt I had to retain something. I've mentioned the LaRouche publications, but haven't overplayed them, as LaRouche was a very small part of what Berlet has done. I have yet to edit the external links section. If any of the links are to dodgy websites, I intend to delete them. I'll do that when I write the References section.

I retained the photograph with Dennis King, and also that Berlet and King were celebrating LaRouche being taken to jail, but I don't know whether that's correct or was a LaRouche insertion. It should be removed unless a non-LaRouche published source can be found for it. Regarding the King photograph itself, I'll leave it to others to decide whether it has a place here.

Also, other editors may feel I've left too large of a reference to LaRouche. I'm sure if we went into the websites of some of the other groups Berlet has criticized, we might find anti-Berlet material there too, but we haven't done that, and I hope wouldn't, so arguably there shouldn't be much of a reference to LaRouche either. But I'll leave that for others to decide. I'd appreciate it if the LaRouche editors would step back and allow others to edit this page. This is not a "closely related" page within the terms of the ArbCom ruling, and so the insertion of more LaRouche material or editing the article to conform to the LaRouche point of view is not appropriate. Slim 00:19, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the work on the article. I haven't gone over it closely yet, but it is much more readble than then old version. Articles can get that written by committee feel. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:42, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Will. I appreciate that. I made a few changes tonight. I've added a References section so it's clear what I referred to while writing it. I also added a quote from Laird Wilcox, a researcher who is critical of Berlet, and a reference to criticism of Berlet stemming from an article Berlet wrote in the New York Times about the Anti-Defamation League.

I also deleted the reference to LaRouche's conviction, as I couldn't see the relevance of it. Berlet and King wrote an article in 1982, as I understand it, alleging that LaRouche might be fundraising illegally, and seven years later, LaRouche was convicted on a similar charge. The way it was written, it sounded as though we were claiming there was a link between the article and the conviction. Similarly, after thinking about it again, I removed the photograph of Berlet and King and the reference to them celebrating LaRouche's conviction, as I've so far found no reliable published reference to this. If you disagree with me on that, feel free to put the material and the photograph back in. Slim 07:40, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)