Talk:TNA World Championship

True TNA World Heavyweight Title History

Debates like these are usually just a matter of opinion, so that's what I'll ask for...

In your opinion, where do you see the TNA World Heavyweight Title history starting? Do you see it starting on May 13, 2007 with Christian Cage holding the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title, after being stripped by the National Wrestling Alliance, and using the physical belt as a substitute in starting the history of the TNA World Heavyweight Title upon being the first champion? That night at the TNA "Sacrifice" Pay-Per-View, Christian Cage would go on to lose the World Title to Kurt Angle in a match that also involved Sting, keeping in account that the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title was being used. Earlier in the night, Team 3D also defended and retained their "NWA" World Tag Team Titles against LAX and Scott Steiner & Tomko.

Or do you see the TNA World Heavyweight Title history starting on May 14, 2007 (May 17th air date) on iMPACT! on Spike TV? Kurt Angle walked down to the ring with the TNA World Heavyweight Title around his waist. The show opened with a video package showing Kurt Angle in the back locker room holding the NWA World Heavyweight Title with him saying something along the lines of... "This is why I came to TNA, to win wrestling's most coveted prize." I don't have the exact quote on hand, but I can go back to the tape and get it for anyone that may want it. Once Kurt walked out on iMPACT! with the TNA World Title though, Mike Tenay said on commentary that due to the major global expansion of TNA Wrestling, Jim Cornette has made the decision to recognize exclusive "TNA" World Champions from here on out. Again, I can get the exact quote for you guys if you want.

urtJim Cornette later came out and stripped Kurt due to the fashion he won the title the night prior at Sacrifice. It was ruled that an undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be determined at TNA Slammiversary in a King of the Mountain Match.

So if you don't consider Christian Cage being the first champion, or Kurt Angle on May 14, 2007 being the first champion, then surely you think Kurt Angle on June 17, 2007 at Slammiversary, was the first TNA World Heavyweight Title reign. That night, Kurt retrieved the title and that's when Don West spoke out. Many think he said Kurt was the first champion that night, but he didn't, he said Kurt Angle was the first "pure" TNA World Heavyweight Champion, possibly meaning that he wasn't the first ever champion, but he was the first champion with no doubters going against his win, it was a clean win.

These are all different angles you can look at it. Now... who was the first champion in your opinion, where did it start, and when did it start?

Something else to think about before you speak...

On July 18, 1993, Ric Flair defeated Barry Windham to win the NWA World Heavyweight Championship; however, recognition was dropped by NWA in September 19, 1993 when WCW withdrew from NWA. WCW continued to recognized Ric Flair as a "World Heavyweight Champion" with the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title. In fact, Ric Flair lost the physical NWA World Title the night the recognition of the NWA was dropped on September 19, 1993, and he lost it to Rick Rude. The NWA did not recognize Rude as a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Just like TNA did in 2007 though, the WCW that night did recognize the matches as being NWA Title matches. After the fact though, they renamed the title the WCW International World Heavyweight Title, and recognized the matches that night on September 19, 1993 to be WCW Title matches. Same can be said for TNA, as the TNA Sacrifice 2007 DVD features the TNA World Title on the cover with Christian, Sting, and Angle all looking at it.

So, now's your time to speak... What do you think? MC511 20:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It starts at Slamiversary, TNA.com had it on there official website saying it started at Slamiversary.The DVD just has it on there becuz TNA does not want to recognize the old NWA title. Don West saying PURE ment that the first champion without the affiliation of the NWA.We have already had a LONG AGONIZING debate on this lol--71.139.17.160 01:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Bah, we all know what the history is, no matter how they referenced Angle's OFFICIAL TNA TITLE WIN, he's the first champion, his first "reign" was one that was reversed the next night. The title he won from Christian was the interim world title that was marked out of the history books because Angle walked out of the building with the title(in kayfabe) without a mutual decision being made by the officials, Cornette reversed the decision on Impact. Yes, there can be title reigns that are reversed and don't go down in the title histories, look at Jericho's in the WWF and look at Hogan's in the AWA. TonyFreakinAlmeida 19:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

We should note these as unofficial reigns then. MC511 16:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• • The following is just my opinion … Last night during Impact, Mike Tenay referred to Sting as a two-time TNA World Heavyweight Champion. They have referred to AJ Styles, Christian Cage, and Ron Killings as former TNA World Champions. I think maybe we should start the World Heavyweight Championship history on June 19, 2002, when Ken Shamrock won the Gauntlet for the Gold and make note that it from 06-19-02 until 05-13-07, the World Champion and World Championship was recognized by and represented both TNA and NWA, and when Kurt Angle won King of the Mountain on 06-17-07, he became the first champion to be recognized solely by TNA. (I also believe this is how the history should be for the World Tag Team Titles) TNAFan80 17:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you on that. After all, when Ken Shamrock became the first World Champion on June 19, 2002, Mike Tenay said that evening that Shamrock was the first ever NWA-TNA World Heavyweight Champion. And as you've said, they're calling their champions former TNA Champions that were recognized and sanctioned by the NWA. These are World Champions recognized by both companies, yet TNA owns the rights to these reigns. 70.68.62.143 18:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• • Also note that between 2002/2007, when the NWA Champion was defending the World Championship, it was also billed as the “TNA World Championship” many times, due to Independent promotions not wanting to have to pay an extra fee to NWA promotions. The names “NWA Championship” and “TNA Championship” really became interchangeable during those five years. TNA and NWA both had to recognize the World Champion in TNA Wrestling starting in June 2002, and I just think starting the history on 06-19-02, and making note that the Ken Shamrock and all champions after him were the “World Heavyweight Champion” as recognized by and representing both TNA Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance is logical. TNAFan80 20:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent explanation. The best I have heard on here for quite some time. We need to change this page to reflect this, and same goes for the Tag Team Titles. I do remember when Christian Cage was World Champion in TNA in 2006, many sites did call him TNA World Champion instead of NWA World Champion for the reasons you mentioned. MC511 21:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the comments Ohg made below, that pretty much sums it up. TNA World Title and NWA World Title are two different championships. TNA no longer wishes to reference the NWA or it's world championships which they at one time used in their promotion. I find it stupid that they call past NWA world tag and heavyweight champions of their company TNA world champions and the like, they should just keep it simple and refer to them as former World ??? Champion and such, but this is revisionism in their own right. The TNA World Title was created and established in May of this year, it's first official champion was crowned on June 17th and that was Kurt Angle.

They created the title with a title reign that was stricken from the record in Kurt Angle's, and no, it should not even be noted in the history as unofficial, as it was blatantly made note on TV that the decision from the previous night was reversed. Kurt never won a world title on May 13, the officials didn't come to a clear consensus, the whole angle was done so that there'd be confusion amongst announcers, the ring announcer(Borash) and the officials as to what happened. In reality, Sting pinned Christian first, and the referees, along with Sting, botched the finish and Sting tapped out seconds after he clearly got the pin on Christian. The story with the finish was that an official spoke too soon and Borash announced Angle as champion, and Angle celebrated and left the building with the title belt(which would transform into a new title belt over night, TNA never explained this). Bla bla bla, Angle was first champ. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• • k Angle was first champ.TNA just referrences other people as Former World Champions due to legal issues. Basicaly what they are saying is. Sting in now a 2 time World Champion IN TNA. kurt Angle was the first TNA Champion.--71.139.27.79 20:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Not so fast

None of this holds water because of a very simple fact that is being ignored:

The NWA and TNA World Titles are 2 completely different Titles with 2 completely different histories.

What you're doing would be like if we went back to 2002, after Brock Lesnar took the WWE Title to Smackdown, and HHH was given the World Title on Raw, and continuing the history of the WWE Title like this: Undertaker-->Rock-->Brock-->HHH-->HBK-->HHH-->etc.

The NWA World Title is still an active championship with it's own independent history.

The TNA World Title was created after NWA and TNA cut their ties.

You can't mix and match histories--2 belts, 2 histories.

Ohgltxg 22:19 October 26, 2007 (UTC)

• • IN MY OPINION … I have to disagree with you, I believe it is ONE title, the “World Heavyweight Championship”, with a history being recognized by TWO promotions, Total Nonstop Action Wrestling to present) and the National Wrestling Alliance.

When Ken Shamrock won a Gauntlet for the Gold to become the World Heavyweight Champion on June 19, 2002, both Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance recognized him as their World Heavyweight Champion.

The National Wrestling Alliance continued to recognize the World Heavyweight Champion in TNA Wrestling as their own champion until May 13, 2007. TNA Wrestling didn’t withdraw their recognition of the World Heavyweight Championship on May 13th, the history remained intact and the championship was held-up following a controversial match.

When Kurt Angle won the World Heavyweight Championship on June 17th, he become the FIRST World Champion in TNA Wrestling that was solely recognized by TNA Wrestling. TNAFan80 02:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You bring up an interesting argument there, but one that lacks much evidence, TNA could claim that they had their own World Heavyweight Title from the beginning, similar to when WCW and NWA unified their World Tag Titles, and whenever a team won those titles, they'd be put on both the NWA World Tag and WCW World Tag histories, we'll have to wait and see though. This is weird because really I can't see a flaw in it except for the fact that TNA never had their OWN branded world title until this year. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

== Isn’t TNA Wrestling already claiming that they had their own World Championship from the beginning by referring to such former champions as AJ Styles, Ron Killings, Sting, and Christian Cage as former “TNA World Heavyweight Champions”? I believe the World Heavyweight Championship History for TNA Wrestling should start on June 19, 2002. Here are the three main bullet points in the World Heavyweight Championship history for TNA Wrestling:

• • [The first World Heavyweight Champion in TNA is crowned on 06-19-02, when Ken Shamrock wins a Gauntlet for the Gold Match. Ken Shamrock is recognized and represents both Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance as World Heavyweight Champion.]

• • [Following several weeks of negotiating, TNA Wrestling and the NWA officially end their working agreement. NWA withdraws THEIR recognition of the World Heavyweight Championship and reigning champion Christian Cage, however TNA Wrestling continues to recognize Christian Cage as THEIR World Heavyweight Champion. Following a controversial finish to the World Heavyweight Championship Match featuring Christian Cage, Sting, and Kurt Angle on May 13th, TNA Wrestling holds up the World Heavyweight Championship on May 14th.]

• • [Kurt Angle wins the forth annual King of the Mountain Match on June 17, 2007 to win the held-up World Heavyweight Championship, and becomes the FIRST World Champion recognized solely by TNA Wrestling, without joint recognition with the National Wrestling Alliance.] TNAFan80 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you spoke up, I couldn't have said it any better than you. We need to take your facts here and transform it onto the actual page. And you're right, at Slammiversary they never did say going in that the winner would be the first ever TNA World Champion, they said the winner would win the vacant TNA World Title. And Christian kept saying he was going to win "back" what was rightfully his. Also, last week on iMPACT! they said Sting is a 2-time TNA World Champion. Of course once recognized by both NWA & TNA, and the 2nd time solely by TNA. Check this out: http://www.cygywrestling.com/titlehistories/tnaworldheavyweighttitlereigns.html 70.68.62.143 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

TNAfan your argument would work if you had sources to back yourself up, but you don't. Also, Cygywrestling is just a website, with all due respect to Marcus, he has some things wrong and some information twisted, and that web page can't really be used as an official source as they are not the writers of the history books here, that's upto TNA. TNA doesn't have a title history page up on their current web site. Also, take this into account, but TNA never called the NWA titles they had in their promotion TNA titles, the old web site's title history strictly called the titles in the title history NWA world Heavyweight and NWA World Tag Titles. Yes they booked the titles, but they never referred to them as TNA Titles, plus, if TNA decided to take the dual title stance in the future, that'd be a clear sign of revisionism, which I'm pretty sure the Wikiproject is clearly against. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• • The source should be TNA Wrestling. TNA Wrestling continued to recognize the reigning World Champion (Christian Cage/Held-Up) and World Tag Team Champions (Team 3D) in TNA Wrestling, even after the National Wrestling withdrew their recognition. TNA Wrestling NEVER interrupted the history, it has remained in tact. I feel like no matter how I explain it, the fact remains, that TNA Wrestling NEVER broke the history of the titles. TNAFan80 20:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, if that's the case, they've never referenced it, ever. Unless you can find that TNA has held a trademark for TNA World Heavyweight Championship the last five+ years, I'd be willing to take it, but they never referenced a TNA World Heavyweight Championship until this year. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• • The TNA Wolrd Title begins on June 17th 2007. TNAwrestling.com said this twice.Bill banks in an interview and on there Title History page. The only reason TNA refeers to Aj Stles , Sting, ect as TNA world champions is becuz they dont have ther rights to use the NWA title AT ALL. Basically the way WWE cant use the WWF logo anymore. IF u buy Wrestlemania 2000. It will be called WWE wrestlemania 2000, but in reality it was WWF wrestlemania 2000.--71.139.27.79 20:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, WWE can't use the Attitude Era WWF logo anymore. I'm not sure if the end of the NWA relationship meant no more NWA references again in TNA, but it was something apart of their history and I'd think they'd be entitled to state the other promotion's titles' names, unless the end-deal was to completely eliminate NWA references from TNA. But yes, TNA World Title started this year, TNA World Tag Titles started this year, end of story. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

From TNA

This is from Tnawrestling.com's official xtreme community page. It is actually Kurt Angles official profile. It is basically an updated version of his profile that is on the roster page. In it it states that Angle became the first TNA champion. Here is the link. http://www.xtremeregime.com/?L=users.profile&id=4435 I honestly think its time to stop this debate. TNA has now wat...5 times at least stated that Kurt Angle is the first TNA Champion. The only reason they call others before him is legal reasons. We cant change history, And the TNA world heavyweight championship title history starts with Kurt Angle.--71.139.27.79 21:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sacrifice 07 - World Title Match

Which World Heavyweight Title was Christian Cage defending at TNA Sacrifice 2007? The NWA World Heavyweight Title or TNA World Heavyweight Title? MC511 10:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This has been done to death, but it's automatically assumed given TNA's stance on Angle being the first TNA World Champion, crowned at Slammiversary, that Christian defended the NWA title. Given that he was stripped about 10 hours before this however, he truly, in reality defended no title. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it was definitely a World Title recognized by TNA, in the form of the physical NWA World Title. MC511 19:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Its the NWA Title match only recognized by TNA--71.139.29.21 00:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• • In reality Christian Cage DID defend a title, the “World Heavyweight Championship”, as TNA Wrestling continued to recognize Christian Cage as the reign World Heavyweight Champion. TNAFan80 02:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that they referred to him as simply World Heavyweight Champion on the graphic during his entrance, and they did announce him as NWA Heavyweight Champ of the World(Borash did) during in-ring introductions, pretty much says to me that they were even confused about what they were doing. I consider basically Cage's reign on May 13th an interim WHC reign, if he had won, he'd be the undisputed World Champ of TNA, but that's not how wrestling works. Arguing about this will go NOWHERE. Seriously, this topic died months ago, TNA's consensus is that the WHC at Sacrifice was the NWA title, or at least an interim championship, and Angle officially became first TNA World Champ at Slammiversary in June. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Though Christian would still be considered the first TNA Championship (unofficially). Guys this is no different than what WP:PW has done before. Whether or not a promotion recognizes a reign, we still list it with a little "↑" next to it noting that the promotion doesn't recognize that specific reign even though another one does. See the WCW and NWA Championships for instance. Hell even the WWE Championship. Its been done time and time again. I don't see why we should take an exemption with TNA-- bulletproof ^3:16 17:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Its not confusing,it simple. On May 13th Angle won the NWA title reign, even tho the NWA doesnt aknowledge it, and on June 17th Kurt Angle became the First TNA Champion.--71.139.5.224 07:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No its not simple.(Using your argument) On May 13th the NWA severed all business relationships with TNA, effectivally stripping Christian Cage of the NWA title, even though TNA doesn't aknowledge it. Therefore the title that Cage lost to Angle was not the NWA title and Kurt Angle became the First TNA Champion on May 13th. -- bulletproof ^3:16 07:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Even though a certain promotion doesn't recognize a reign we still list it. Why? Because it still happened. We did it for Benoit's unrecognized WCW title reign in List of WCW World Heavyweight Champions and countless other cases in championship articles. The TNA title should be no exception. -- bulletproof ^3:16 07:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, WCW did recognize Benoit's WCW title win, as does the WWE today. Benoit himself didn't recognize it though, and neither did WWE when they had his profile page out on the web site. Benoit didn't feel he worked for that title and saw the decision of putting the belt on him as a last resort from Kevin Sullivan to keep him with the company. But! Here with Angle's reign as Champion that lasted less than a day, it could be considered that his "win" the night before was totally reversed and made unofficial, therefore his reign wouldn't go down in the books. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

May 13th is the only somewhat contraversial win. But thats the NWA title.The fact is the first time the TNA title was on the line was at Slammiversary,so Angle is the first and third TNA Champion