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Talk:EST and The Forum in popular culture

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wassupwestcoast (talk | contribs) at 00:29, 22 November 2007 (update). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Reformatting

In the process of reformatting the article from a list format, to a more analytical, paragraph format. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC).[reply]

"est" came from est: The Steersman Handbook

Here below I have provided the 2 WP:RS sources that back up this information in the article, with the relevant quoted portions of these 2 books and their page numbers. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 05:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Occhiogrosso, Peter, Page 543

Werner Erhard's self awareness courses were also influenced by a science fiction book he read shortly before forming Erhard Seminars Training, called: est: The Steersman Handbook, Charts of the Coming Decade of Conflict, by L. Clark Stevens.[1] Though "est" is also an abbreviation for Erhard Seminars Training, usage of the term in all-lowercase lettering was borrowed from est: The Steersman Handbook.[1]

Here is the quote from Occhiogrosso's book, from Page 543:

"... Erhard has acknowledged that he borrowed the initials, lowercase and all, from a book by L. Clark Stevens called est: The Steersman's Handbook (where they stand for "electronic social transformation"). ..."

  • Occhiogrosso, Peter (September 4, 1997). The Joy of Sects. Image. p. 543. 978-0385425650. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  • Please restore this sourced information. Thanks. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 05:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Larson, Bob, Page 176

This is quoted from Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality from Page 176 :

In the company of friend Bill Thaw, he explored his interest in a succession of Eastern religions and mind-science cults. Finally (according to Thaw), Erhard read a book entitled: est: The Steersman Handbook. The author, L. Clark Stevens, used the abbreviation est to denote: "electronic social transformation." Erhard borrowed the term and redubbed it Erhard Seminars Training - est (always lowercase) for short. While driving his wife's Mustang one day, he experienced a Damascus-road-type enlightenment. Erhard says he "got it," and est became the vehicle for selling "it."

I cannot ever understand removing sourced information from an article if it is backed up by one source that satisfies WP:RS with the page number given, but removing sourced information when it is backed up by two WP:RS sources with the page numbers given? Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 05:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Pressman, Steven, Page 40
Conway, Flo, Jim Siegelman, Page 6

That is now a total of (4) WP:RS cites that assert Werner Erhard got the name "est" from est: The Steersman Handbook. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 08:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Discussion

We still having that "reading problem" Salad? Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 01:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know what this is in reference to from your previous interactions with Saladdays (talk · contribs), but on this talk page please try to assume good faith. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 02:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I'm just very familiar with the sources you cited and I assumed he was too, due to his deep fascination with all things Erhard. I'll keep it in mind, though. Thanks! Good luck with your article. Check the punctuation in regards to quotation marks, as the commas and periods go INSIDE them, not outside. Again thanks for your wisdom and good luck. Looks solid so far. Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 02:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the tip. I will go back and check the commas and periods. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 02:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

GA Review

I'm going to put this on GA Hold for a few days. There is at least one formatting problem. Look at reference number 7: something is wrong. The article needs a simple copy edit. Revising of the text is advisable in several places including the first sentence:

Werner Erhard and his self-improvement courses known as "est" or Erhard Seminars Training, and "The Forum" or Werner Erhard and Associates, as well as later incarnation Landmark Education with its course "Landmark Forum", have been referenced in popular culture in various forms of fictional media including literature, film, television and theatre.

Another example is:

In addition to non-fiction influences such as the self-help course Mind Dynamics, cybernetics, the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Scientology courses and the writings of its founder L. Ron Hubbard, Werner Erhard's self awareness courses were also influenced by a science fiction book he read shortly before forming Erhard Seminars Training, called: est: The Steersman Handbook, Charts of the Coming Decade of Conflict, by L. Clark Stevens.[1][2][3][4]

In general, a thorough copy edit would help the prose. Overall, the article is interesting and seems well sourced. It doesn't need much work to pass GA. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing some points from above
  1.  Done - Reference number 7 is actually multiple sources collapsed within one citation, but I removed a few so that it is smaller.
  2.  Done - Split the first sentence into three smaller sentences, for readability and per suggestion by Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs). On to work on the next one.
  3.  Done - Split the next sentence mentioned by Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs) into two separate sentences, for clarity/readability.

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 03:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I understand now about ref 7. To me that seems a bit unorthodox. Why not list them all separately? Where a statement is contentious, having a row of sources/citation numbers is like having a stack of books on your desk ...it looks as if you know your stuff. I'd prefer to see ref 7 broken out into individual refs. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, will do. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 04:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]
 Done - Split up sources into separate citations instead of combined, as per suggestion from Wassupwestcoast (talk · contribs). Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 04:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC).[reply]

GA Pass

The article could still be copy edited but it meets the GA guidelines. I enjoyed reading it. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ a b Occhiogrosso, Peter (September 4, 1997). The Joy of Sects. Image. p. 543. 978-0385425650. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
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