Talk:Rhyming slang

Brass Tacks?

Not sure if it's really rhyming slang. I've heard too many other origins... request removal as it is stated in a manner that makes it seem like the only/correct origin. We've quite a nice page on brass tacks as it is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_tacks

Quicken Speech?

You don't drop the second word because of that -- you drop it to make it impossible for others to understand. This is like Butcher's Back Slang (speaking words in reverse) which was used by London butchers at one point. The idea is that other people who are not Cockney's don't understand it. I speak as son of a true Cockney (by the Bow Bells definition) who was also a linguist in later life and discussed this with me. 218.102.78.57 10:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

82.45.78.94 21:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC) He's right you know. I speak this as a cockney as well - though not a linguist.[reply]

Defn of CRS

I'm at work so I don't have time to address this right now - but this article focuses a little too much on CRS in East London, and fails to explore the way it has spread across the world. CRS is very common in Australia, and has even turned up in the US - eg. the term "Raspberry" for a fart, derives from "raspberry tart" (source: David Crystal - The English Language). It's still a very good article though - just needs a bit more depth. - MMGB

1. Doesn't the term "raspberry" refer to a fart-like sound made with the lips rather than to the sound of a real fart?
2. Does the term "cant" apply to CRS or am I thinking of som other form of jargon?
- user:eclecticology

Er, I'm struggling to see how an article on Cockney rhyme slang can fail to focus on East London the home of Cockneys born within the sound of Bow Bells... But I am being slightly disingenuous. Rhyming slang has indeed taken on a global context, but probably would be better dealt with under, say, Rhyming slang, crosslinked to CRS. sjc

I disagree, mainly because it has spread across the world, and is generally referred to as "cockney rhyming slang". Examine Bryson - Mother Tongue, and Crystal (cited above). It is not called simply "rhyming slang", it is always referred to as "Cockney rhyming slang". Rhyming Slang is quite different - to call a "beer" an "ear" is rhyming slang, to call a beer a "bullock" is CRS (as in "bullock and steer"). Whether the expression itself is used in Cockney territory is not the point, CRS also refers to a style of linguistic usage. It's definitely used and referred to as such in Oz and NZ. I've been aware of CRS since I was a child, and long before I was even aware what "cockney" actually referred to. I doubt Americans would recognise the term as such, but nonetheless the books I have read on the topic clearly identified its heritage. That's all :) - MMGB

V. persuasive, Manning, I don't have any particular problem with that approach. sjc

I'd disagree (but then I would, I wrote the (original) article). Cockney Rhyming Slang is *by definition* what Cockney's use. Other people may come up with rhyming slang (my friends and I use to use economic = economic slump = dump (defecate), so when you ran out of toilet paper it was an economic crisis!), they may have been inspired by CRS, and they can call it CRS, but it isn't. Similarly saying that something 'is a great value' can be described as English, but it isn't, it's American English (the English would be 'is great value'). I can see your point about CRS representing a step away from a direct rhyme such as ear/beer, but I can't think of any widespread use that is made of such a construction, so I don't think we need to allow for it. But please provide evidence otherwise :) Another analogy - I was at the store last night, and they were selling Yorkshire Ham from Vermont. Verloren

Hate to differ - but you're failing to acknowledge two points. 1 - CRS has spread across the worldwide, particularly to the antipodes, and 2 - when it spreads it is called "Cockney ryhming slang", not "rhyming slang" and this is validated by citable references. Simply because a particular instance of slang didn't originate in East London doesn't change the fact that that is what it is called. Your argument would imply that Americans can't refer to "French toast" because it isn't French. They do, you may not like it, but that's how it is :) - MMGB

A very good point. The difference I see is that 'French' becomes a method of preparation, rather than a point of origin, and is needed to differentiate this from 'normal' toast. That's why we say American Football, to distinguish a particular instance of a more general class, and why Canadians don't play American Football (because they changed it). I see no such need with CRS (I can't think of an example of rhyming slang that doesn't follow the CRS pattern, and to stretch the analogy this is why we don't say American trousers), whereas it could be useful to differentiate between phrases with Cockney origins and those without. For example, the phrase "It's all gone a bit Pete" became popular on BBC Radio 1 in the UK. It means wrong, derived from a DJ named Pete Tong. A good and useful phrase, but has nothing to do with Cockneys, and to be able to distinguish that is useful. What I've not convinced even myself of is that just because it's useful it's actually used! Maybe in the same way we need to say American English, except that the Cockney community is smaller, so any interest in differentiating them is proportionally less. Verloren

Out of curiousity, why "extension to (of??) English" rather than my original "idiom particular to..." or whatever I wrote -- I am pretty sure that, philologically and linguistically speaking, CRS is idiom within a particular dialect, but admit I'm on a limb here...JHK

I blew away what you wrote purely because I thought my version was a little more comprehensive (while covering everything you said), and I'm no good at reconciling these things when there are two edits at the same time, NOT because it was wrong, or badly done. So I think the 'idiom particular to' type construct works better (idiom isn't a word I use a lot in conversation, so it didn't occur to me!). Please update it to reflect that :) Verloren

I would also like to add that CRS was and to some extent still is used to get around censure, most notably by the Goons (Spike Milligan, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe and in the early days Michael Bentine). Hence the common usage of such expressions as, Hello Charlie (Charles Hunt) and characters with names such as Hugh Hampton (Hampton Wick). I think that this point would be of use and would allow a tie in between the Goons and vulgar language used in mainstream media

Barney

From Ocean's Eleven:

"Looks like we're in a bit of Barney, then." - Roscoe Means, british demolitions expert
(puzzled looks and shrugs from Americans)
"Barney. Barney Rubble? Trouble!"

Only thing is Barney doesn't come from Barney Rubble and doesn't mean trouble, it means a fight or an argument

Barney Fife, strife?

No. The most likely explanation is that Barney comes from Barn Owl which (in a cockney accent) rhymes with row (argument). So it's a little obscure to non-Londoners. Mintguy

As a Londoner I can't see how you can possibly make Barn Owl rhyme with row. Eastenders might lighten that final 'l' but it's still there. I think this is one of the many cases where a slang expression used by Londoners isn't CRS SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that Barney is rhyming slang. Among other meanings, it meant a prize-fight, so by extension any type of brawl or quarrel. Engelsepiet

I can't stand that guy's fake Cockney accent.

I can't contribute to the origin of Barney, other to say that it pre-dates The Flinstones cartoons. My Grandfather claims it was in common use during WWII. dougo 07:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Berk and loaf

I see nobody's included the famous "berk", or is that too near the knuckle? Neither is using one's "loaf" in the list, or is that too twee? Dieter Simon

Probably no-one thought of them- stick 'em in :-) quercus robur 23:40 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

ok should that list of CRS be moved to wiktionary, or is it ok here? -fonzy

Dogs, razz and 'arris

I'm pretty sure that dogs is not rhyming slang and doesn't come from dogs meat; and although raspberry = raspberry tart = fart, I don't think razz has its origin in cockney rhyming slang either. Certainly I've never heard the word razz used to mean a fart. And one more - I don't know the origin of aris, but I'd always believed it was a cockney pronunciation of Harris, i.e. 'arris, but I could be wrong. A lot of these words you take for granted without wondering about their origin. Mintguy (not a true cockney but spent most of my life speaking and living amongst people who speak CRS).

As a youngster growing up around the Elephant & Castle in London, I knew the word 'aris' as meaning 'arse', but only learnt about the 'Aristotle' connection when I was much older. I think that it's more likely to be a play on the sound of '(H)arris' and 'arse' than double rhyming slang. Engelsepiet

The razz or Bronx cheer is performed by sticking the tongue between the lips and blowing hard, keeping the lips pressed as tight as possible. Thus, razz, raspberry tart, fart.

Not all rhyming slang is Cockney folklore. I'm sure it was the wittiest Cockneys who made it up, and lots of people outside the sound of Bow Bells have heard of it and are capable of making it up too. Same for dog's meat. People do call their feet their dogs, you know. I don't have my references before me, but I'm confident about razz and less confident about dogs. Ortolan88

I don't doubt that many CRS expressions have origins outside London. but many slang words have obscure origins and sometimes people assume that the origin is in CRS. I don't think dog in this context comes from dog's meat. I looked razz up in the Chambers dictionary and it appears to only be in common ussage in North America, which is why it's an unusual expression to me. Certainly raspberry in this context is common in Britain but not razz. Mintguy

The OED has ten cites on razz, two from Punch, also Spectator and Times Literary Supplement, says it is of US origin, from Brit use of raspberry. No mention of CRS. Ortolan88

OED2 says it's rhyming slang, without mentioning Cockney. It defines razz as orig. US slang, "short for RASPBERRY 4", then defines RASPBERRY 4 as "elliptical use of raspberry tart (b) ", then defines raspberry tart (b) as "rhyming slang (a) heart (b) fart". -- Heron

There are quite a number of websites which all give Raspberry tart = fart for the definition (to blow a rasperry/raspberries)--Dieter Simon 22:48 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

...that is for Rhyming Slang...--Dieter Simon 22:51 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that aris/'arris is CRS. On http://www.odps.org/slanga.html it states..

"arris n. buttock cleft, f. (1) pos. corrup. of arse, but could be from the literal meaning "sharp edge at the meeting of two surfaces". Strangely the term is used with its correct meaning in bricklaying! (2) possibly "double" Cockney rhyming slang - Aristotle=bottle, bottle and glass=arse. The latter also helps explain the term for someone who has panicked, i.e. "lost his bottle" as in "shit himself" (ed: however, on balance I think perhaps the first is most likely)"

I tend to agree with the author. The double rhyme would be unique AFAIK. Mintguy

Arris and bottle

The expression "lost his bottle" is quite common where I come from, so I prefer explanation (2) in the above. Here are two alternatives from http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/

Aris Arse: derived from aristotle (bottle) meaning bum (bottle of rum).

Aris Arse (derivation: Aris = Aristotle = Bottle = Bottle and Glass = Arse).

At http://www.users.on.net/brett/ (confirmed at http://www.recoil.co.uk/forum/qa/pworld.htm) I found a triple rhyme:

plaster = plaster of Paris = arris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse

Double rhymes are rare but are sometimes found. Here's one from Australia:

pom = pomegranate = jimmygrant = immigrant

(source: http://www.word-detective.com/back-m.html). -- Heron

Actor Roger Lloyd Pack (Trigger in Only Fools And Horses but actually a clever man and a student of London slang) reported some time back that he'd heard someone say "She's got a lovely April" which turned out to be April in Paris = Arris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse. SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Yes to lose your bottle is common, but I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that aristotle was ever used as a rhyme of bottle.

I don't see the need for the intermediate rhyme of jimmygrant.

Er... plaster? Never heard anyone use the word plaster to mean 'arse'. Mintguy

Bill Bryson gives the plaster-to-arse derivation in his book Mother Tongue (1990). -- Heron 20:54, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

From the Bill Bryson page on Wikipedia - Bryson has written two works on the history of the English language, Mother Tongue and Made In America. However, these books have been criticized for their abundance of factual errors, urban myths, and folk etymologies. While Bryson is passionate about languages, he holds no degree in linguistics. Mintguy (T) 07:50, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I know. You are right to be sceptical. I wasn't claiming him as an authoritative source, merely as a collector of anecdotes. --Heron 08:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

HARRIS i.e She has a tidy harris

The word HARRIS is commenly used when refering to somebodys rear, the question i raise is where the word HARRIS originates from? A good example being "She has a tidy Harris"

Perhaps a splitting of the word arse into two sylablles? Just a drunken guess... quercus robur 00:40, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Prolly a couple of years too late but nm. 'aris is short for 'Aristotle', 'Aristotle' is CRS for 'bottle', 'bottle' is short for 'bottle and glass' which is CRS for arse.

Do the BURTON!

To do the burton, commenly used when making a hasty exit. Where does the the word BURTON originate? Possible answer Burton - Burton on trent - trent - went.

The Bloomsbury Dictionary of Popular Phrases says the expression arose in the RAF during World War II, but that its origin is unknown. It is probably not rhyming slang. One suggestion is that a 'Burton' was a brand of beer being advertised at the time, and it replaced the word 'drink' in the existing RAF phrase 'gone for a drink', meaning 'shot down over the sea'. -- Heron

"Gone for a Burton" - perh. to buy a civilian suit (from Burton's the gents outfitters), similar to "buying the farm", the dream of many wartime aviators, used to euphemise death, as in "old Charlie bought it, yesterday". Rich Farmbrough 21:04, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The word Burton originates from the British actor Richard Burton. In CRS, Richard Burtain means curtain (like in a theater).

Then it would be "gone for a Richard" which would be very confusing.... Rich Farmbrough 00:50, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Gone for a Burton" comes from an old India Pale Ale Billboard advert, that showed a very long bus queue, with a silhouette as part of the queue, in which was written; "Gone For A Burton!"Lion King 17:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is generally accepted among experts that the origin of the phrase is unknown. There is little or no evidence to support any of the above theories. See http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gon1.htm

Taters

I am trying to trace the origin of the phrase "taters in the mould", for the benefit of this Wikpedia article. Some books say that it's from an old song. The oldest reference I can find is the line "It was cold as 'taters in the mould", from the song Anti-Carol (1972) by John Pole. Did Pole create the phrase, or does anybody know of an older source? -- Heron 12:35, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

it's much older than that for sure,

Plastered

I really don't buy this double or triple rhyming thing. I was already convinced that 'aris isn't CRS, but I'm coming to the conclusion that 'plastered' isn't CRS either. Some sources say that 'plastered' first appears around 1912, the same time as a number of other words for drunk that have no connection with CRS, like blotto and steamed. Some sources say that it's Irish in origin. Mintguy (T) 03:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

ISTM that multiple remove slang formations occur when the purpose is to conceal. Typically this applies to anatomical or sexual terms, and also to the police, once the slang term becomes assimilated into normal language, it loses it's conealment value. Does anyone know where "fuzz" for the police orignates? Rich Farmbrough 21:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fuz1.htm Mintguy (T)

Also see Low Speak: A Dictionary of Criminal and Sexual Slang (London, 1989) by James Morton. He opines that:

the rhyming-slang explanation for plastered is "an extremely complicated theory", and
fuzz is "originally American east coast slang taken up by hippies and now in general use", and "perhaps" derives from fuss.

The OED has, among several senses of plaster (verb), "to load to excess", "to defeat utterly" and (First World War slang) "to shell heavily". Any of these could have led to the "drunk" sense.

American Tramp & Underworld Slang by G. Irwin, 1931, has "Fuzz, a detective; a prison guard or turnkey. Here it is likely that 'fuzz' was originally 'fuss', one hard to please or over-particular." --Heron 21:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps 'aris/arris/Harris should be moved (along with plastered) out of the main list and into a section detailing words that may not be CRS? Mintguy (T) 21:56, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure. The principle sounds good, but how would you decide which ones were "genuine"? Sometimes the CRS derivation gets bolted on to an existing piece of slang (e.g. scarper), and sometimes the CRS and slang version seem to evolve simultaneously (e.g. arris). There is probably a core of terms that are undisputed (e.g. apples and pears), but the boundary is blurred. I think you would need three lists: true CRS, retro-CRS, and undecided. --Heron 08:13, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I always thought that aris came from Aris - building trade term for a 90 degree corner - but also sounds vaguely like arse. --Mcginnly | Natter 15:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pie grater

According to the article Hamish and Dougal, there was a gag in which a buzzing pie grater caused much embarrassment by sounding like a vibrator. Apparently it was a doubly aural joke because of the rhyming of "pie grater" and "vibrator". Would this be an example of Cockney rhyming slang, with the full phrase being used instead of just the first word? — Jeff Q 20:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In a word. No. Mintguy (T)

According to my reference books, CRS doesn't require the rhyme to be shortened to the first word - that's an optional step. However, "pie grater" was created by fictional Scots, not by Cockneys, so I would call it rhyming slang, not CRS. --Heron 21:16, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pie grater in Google gets 3 hits, one of them from Wikipedia and another from a mirror. It's not slang by any definition, it is merely a ficticious object which sounds like vibrator for the sake of a joke. Mintguy (T) 21:36, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I concede. I suppose it's just "fictional slang", in the same category as "Naff off!" from Porridge. --Heron 07:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Naff" is genuine slang, abeit not CRS, it's Polari, it means "dull", but one would not tell anybody to "Dull Off". Lion King 21:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not slang. Nobody, not even the characters in the sketch are using 'pie grater' as a colloquial substitute for vibrator. The characters are talking about an object called a pie grater, they are not taling about a vibrator. When the characters in the sketch mention the buzzing of the pie grater, the audience think buzzing vibrator and snigger. It's stupid schoolboy humour really. Mintguy (T)

Duh, I get it. Sorry, I was being obtuse. As you say, it's not slang. I suppose it's really a rough double entendre. --Heron 09:46, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hu Jintao

50Stars (talk · contribs) recently added an entry "Hu Jintao = cow".[1] I have a problem believing that, simply because it was added by 50Stars. I know that goes against assuming good faith, but once it was confirmed that 50Stars is a sockpuppet account (see WP:ANI#User:Amerinese, User:DINGBAT et al.), any faith that was left on my part has disappeared. I removed the entry at some point, and 50Stars added it again with edit summary "Hu Jintao is currently used in London banking cirlces."[2] I've just removed it a second time because I have a hard time believing this (why would London banking circles talk about cows a lot?). I'm not opposed to adding it back, but only if there is a credible source for this claim. --MarkSweep 20:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Catching up

I'm new to this section but I've been a Londoner all my life and there are a few points I'd like to raise or query here. This discussion area has got to be a bit messy but I've added some comments inline above about some of the wilder claims.

My main point would be that I was brought up to believe that CRS was mainly used by market traders (barrow boys, a remarkable clever & quick witted bunch) so that they could talk to each other without the customers knowing what they were saying. It's a form of code! Part of this obscuring of the meaning is that they pick a word or phrase that rhymes with the word they want to encode - and then (usually) discard the rhyme. No Cockney would say "I'm going up the apples and pears". They'd just say "I'm going up the apples". But remember that it's a form of communication (with your friends) so it's no good if they don't know what you're talking about.

My second point would be to stress that not everything said by Londoners is CRS. Not even all the slang they use is CRS. What about "My dear old dutch" (as in the song)? That's just an abbreviation of duchess.

Then I'd add that there are a lot of web sites (& books) out there that are desparate to fill up the space available with more examples - so they just make them up. But the real test is if you used them in an East End pub or cafe, would anyone know what you're on about? Most of the examples in the list for this article would fail that test. SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I would also say that we should delete any examples that are marked as being Australian (shouldn't they be in their own article?) or "invented by ...". Just because it's found on a few web sites doesn't mean it's CRS. Most of the examples on those lists are made up and then copied from one web site to another (or into books). Wouldn't it be better to have a list of examples that were real CRS rather than a list where 90% of them wouldn't be understood by most cockneys? A classic bad example is "Jack the dancer = cancer". When spoken in a London accent "cancer" doesn't come close to rhyming with "dancer". Unless I hear some objections I'll start clearing out the bad examples. SteveCrook 22:40, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I was hoping for some discussion here but after nearly two weeks there's no sign of any so, following the Wiki philosophy of Being Bold I decided to act anyway. I've removed a few examples that were marked as Australian, they should really have their own entry. I've removed some that were obviously wrong. I've marked many others as [dubious]. The trouble with slang is that you're not likely to find any reliable quotable sources. Just because they're in a few web pages doesn't mean they'd pass the "pub test". If you used them in an East-End pub I doubt if they'd be understood. I suspect most web pages are compiled by people who have never heard any Cockneys (except Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins) or who just make them up to pad out their web sites (or even books). SteveCrook 19:47, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I've "undubioused" a couple, and removed "bottle" as courage altogether. The derivation is far more juvenile, "what's the matter, lost your bottle" I.E. someone who is crying like a baby that has lost his feeding bottle, or looks as if they might. Hence "he hasn't got any bottle" or conversely "a lot of bottle".

That comment about lost your bottle makes sense. BTW in Australia, a bottler is something very good, often a racehorse. I'll still disagree about some you've "undubioused" but I'll leave them for now in the hope of other opinions. I see you've marked Merchant Banker = wanker as dubious. I've certainly heard that used - and it does describe a lot of them :) SteveCrook

Elephants = Elephant's Trunk = Drunk I think this originated in a Ronnie Barker sketch. Whether it passed into common usage I couldn't say, so I've not changed it.

I heard "He's a bit Elephants" as I was growing up. So it's a lot older than The Two Ronnies. Or might it have been some of Ronnie Barker's very early work? SteveCrook

My Grandad was using "Elephants" before BOTH those prats were born! Lion King 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jack jones certainly means alone. Not sure if it's a rhyming derivation, but I would guess so.

Mickey Bliss = piss (as in "take the Mickey" = "take the piss" = satirise) I have my doubts about this one. I wondered if the word "micturate" may be involved?

I have severe doubts that it's rhyming slang. And Cockneys are clever as in sharp witted, that doesn't mean many would know the definition of micturate SteveCrook

Anyway I'm glad someone shares my doubts about some of these, although I'm aware my familiarity is somewhat limited of recent decades. Rich Farmbrough 00:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mickey Bliss is genuine CRS. It's widely thought that like Charlie Hunt, (proper Charlie) he was a "local character" most likely Irish like Patrick "hooligan" Houlihan, now long gone. It's derivation is certainly not latin. Hope this helps. Lion King 14:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also seem to remember Jodrell => wank. Rich Farmbrough 00:53, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall that one from school. SteveCrook

Bubble barf is larf isn;t it? And Peter is safe, but I don't knowe if there's a rhyming connection. Ansd what about drum (home) Is that from Humble abode -> hum-> drum?, tanner, monkey, pony and all the other money slang, even if it's not rhyimg slang it should be in a cockney/London slang article. Rich Farmbrough 00:59, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A Bubble is definitely a Greek. It's not unknown to have two words mean different things, but it's not very common. Drum for house and Peter for safe are both London slang but I don't think they're rhyming slang. I think they, like Tom for prostitute, might all be police slang that's been picked up by the other side. We need a Copper's Nark to tell us. I think there should be a section for London slang that isn't CRS. As London was a port (and hub of Empire) for so long there have always been a lot of immigrants (most are welcomed by most people). And English as a language has always been keen on borrowing terms from other languages. Someone once said that English pretends to be a nice language but then entices other languages down a dark alleyway and mugs them for all their best words! :) SteveCrook 02:22, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Good grief you've marked some classic CRS as dubious. you need to get out more. Jooler 19:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dunno about "classics" some of them seem to have quite recent references to this old geezer, but I agree with most of the ones you've OK'd. I'm glad to see that you're keeping up the traditions and many are to do with drinking :)

I suppose Barclays Bank is now better known that J. Arthur Rank

Britney Spears can't have been in use for very long, or is it already a "classic"?

Scooby Doo was probably helped by the films being released

It's an ever changing language which is why we love it.

I still feel there's something missing from "On my Jack". If it is CRS then it doesn't rhyme SteveCrook 00:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Rhyming Slang Arbitration Board

I took this sentence out:

It should be noted that not all these slang phrase examples, nor their definitions, are generally accepted as equally valid.

Accepted by whom? I think it's valid if it a) rhymes and b) people use it. I know that the French have a government department which rules over their language, but I don't think that the (worldwide) community who use rhyming slang do. And if they did it would be just as successful as the French version. Paul Tracy_|\talk

I'm not trying to be prescriptive by any means. As I said above "It's an ever changing language which is why we love it." But the important clause I think is that people use it (and someone else understands it). Just because it rhymes isn't enough. It is meant to be a code to get a meaning across. Anyone can make up a rhyme but if nobody knows what they mean it's not very useful. That's why I apply the pub test, "would it be understood by anyone in an East End pub?" I do have trouble believing some like Joe Bashpoint = Cashpoint. Some examples of where they have been heard, and how often, would always be helpful. There were so many examples in the list of examples that were obviously made up on the spot that I felt I had to do something. SteveCrook 00:26, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

And this is just meant to be for Cockney Rhyming Slang. Any other rhyming slangs can have their own pages and link to this one. SteveCrook

Maybe you could somehow segregate "classic" CRS from "modern" CRS? Wahkeenah 00:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe even let the list of examples be just that, a list of examples. Rather than trying to include everything which I think is probably impossible. SteveCrook 00:48, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Examples or a dictionary

It seems the Examples section is trying to become a dictionary, which isn't the point of Wikipedia.

What do others think of reducing this to say five common phrases and their origins?

Wiktionary already has a list of Cockney rhyming slang and would seem to be a better place for this.

— Barefootguru 23:57, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the Dictionary has all the commonly used CRS and none of the other made up stuff, seems to better policed and would certanly make you look less of a fool in an east end pub. Perhaps the examples section here should be used to illistrate a few good examples rather that an exhaustive list. I suggest Apples, Frog and Rosie would be a good selection of classic CRS. What the disabled and Australian rhyming slang is doing there is beyond me, and if you want a good tip as to what is going make you look like a proper berk, if the rhyme is the name of a current pop star then it is doubtful it is being widely used.....

Andy (Essex) 1st September 2005

Actually if the rhyme is the name of a current pop star it is more likely to be widely used, if only for a short time. Jamie Blunt is now filling the shoes occupied by James Hunt and Gareth Hunt in the 1970s. Paul Tracy_|\talk

It's been a couple of weeks with no other feedback, so I've gone ahead and removed all but 3 examples. I also added some hidden comments requesting it not be extended (again). Note that pretty much all additions in the last few weeks have been from non-registered users.

Here's the examples I removed:

Adam and Eve = believe = as in "would you Adam and Eve it?"

Alans = knickers = as in Alan Whicker (UK TV personality)

Almonds = almond rocks = socks

Alto Rag = old bag (derogatory term for a prostitute)

April = April in Paris = Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle & glass = arse

Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle & glass = arse

Artful Dodger = lodger

Ayrton Senna = tenner (a ten dollar/pound note)

Ascot races = braces (called suspenders in the U.S.)

Aunt Joanna = piano (or just Joanna) (note the cockney pronunciation of 'piano' is 'pianna')

Baked Bean = queen

Ball of chalk = walk

Band of hope = soap

Barclays = Barclays Bank = wank (i.e. masturbate)

Barnaby Rudge = judge

Barnet = Barnet fair = hair

Beezun = bees and honey = money

Bengal Lancer = chancer (person unqualified for the work he/she is doing)

Berk or Burk = Berkeley Hunt = cunt (used as a surprisingly mild insult — a fool or jerk, never as an anatomical reference)

Bill and Ben = pen

Billy = Billy Bunter = punter (i.e. customer or mark)

Billy Hunt = cunt

Billy lid = kid

Bird's Nest = chest

Biscuit drum or crumb = bum (rear end, buttocks)

Bluebottle = bottle and stopper = copper = policeman.

Boat = boat race = face

Bob Hope = soap

Boracic (freq. contracted to brassic) = boracic lint = skint (i.e. 'skinned', meaning 'penniless')

Bottle = bottle glass = ass

Brahms = Brahms and Liszt (classical composers) = pissed (i.e. drunk)

Brad Pitt = shit (as in to have)

Brass tacks = facts ("facks")

Bread = bread and honey = money

Bricks and mortar = daughter

Bristol (or Bristols) = Bristol City (UK football club) = titty (i.e. breast)

Britney Spears = beers

Brown bread = dead

Bubble = bubble and squeak = Greek

Butcher's = butcher's hook = look

Cain and Abel = table

Canary Wharf = dwarf (disability rhyming slang)

Captains log = bog (slang for lavatory)

Cardinal Wolsey = cerebral palsy (disability rhyming slang)

Chalfonts = Chalfont St. Giles = piles (i.e. haemorrhoids)

Charlie = Charlie Smirke (an English jockey, 1930s-50s) = berk (i.e. a fool) or Charlie Hunt = cunt

Cheese 'n' kisses = missus = wife [dubious, see Trouble below]

China = china plate = mate

Cobblers = cobblers' awls = balls or bollocks (i.e. testicles, but usually meant in the sense of 'rubbish' as in "You're talking a load of cobblers")

Cock and hen = ten

Creamed = cream crackered = knackered (i.e. exhausted or beaten)

Currant bun = sun or The Sun newspaper

Daffy Ducked = fucked (as in broken, not working or fouled up)

Daisies = daisy roots = boots

Dame Judy = Judy Dench = stench

Dead 'orse = sauce, as in a dog's eye and dead 'orse = a meat pie and sauce

Derby Kell = Derby Kelly = belly (see Music Hall song Boiled beef and Carrots)

Desmond = Desmond Tutu = 2.2 (lower second class Bachelor's degree using UK system)

Dicky = dicky dirt = shirt

Dicky or dickie = Dickie Bird = word = as in "not a dickie", or even "not a dickie bird"

Dog = dog and bone = phone

Dog's eye = pie, as in a dog's eye and dead 'orse = a meat pie and sauce

Donald Ducked = fucked (as in broken, not working or fouled up)

Doris Day = gay

Duck and dive = skive

Ducks and geese = police ("pleece")

Duke of Kent = rent, also bent

Dukes = Duke[s] of York = fork, i.e. hand, now chiefly when balled into a fist

Dustbin lid = kid

Eagle and Hind = blind ("Eagle and Hind" is a common British pub sign) (disability rhyming slang)

Eartha kitt = shit

East and west = breast(s)

Economics = loo = bathroom (from voo doo economics)

Eighty-sixed = nixed (as in kicked- or thrown-out) [American rhyming slang from the 1930s]

Elephants = elephant's trunk = drunk

Farmers = Farmer Giles = piles (slang for haemorrhoids)

Fatboy Slim = gym

Fireman's hose = nose

Flowery dell = (prison) cell

Fourby = four by two (a common size of timber) = Jew

Four wheel skid = Yid (a Jewish person)

Fox = fox and weasel = diesel

Frank Zappa = crapper (lavatory)

Frazer = Frazer Nash = slash = to urinate

Front wheel = front wheel skid = Yid = Jew

Gareth = Gareth Hunt (English actor) = cunt

Gary Ablett (Australian Rules (AFL) footballer) = (ecstasy) tablet

Gary Glitter = shitter (anus) ("He took it up the Gary Glitter")

Gay 'n' hearty = party

George Raft = draught

Geoff = Geoff Hurst (English footballer) = First (degree result)

Germans = German bands = hands

Gianluca Vialli = Charlie = cocaine

Ginger = ginger beer = queer

Granite = granite rock = cock (penis)

Gregory = Gregory Peck = neck, or cheque

Grim 'n' gory = story

Grumble = grumble and grunt = cunt (a girl, as in "a nice piece of grumble")

Gypsy's = gypsy's kiss = piss

Half-inch = pinch (i.e. steal)

Half ounce of baccy (i.e. tobacco) = Paki (pejorative term for Pakistani)

Hampsteads = Hampstead Heath = teeth

Hampton = Hampton Wick = prick (i.e. penis)

Hamilton = Hamilton Accie = Paki

Hank = Hank Marvin (guitarist in The Shadows) = starvin'

Harry holt = bolt (to run away)

Honky tonk = plonk (cheap wine)

Hovis = brown bread = dead

Iron = iron hoof = poof

Jack = Jack Jones = alone ("On my Jack" = "On my own")

Jack and Jill = restaurant bill or contraceptive pill, depending on context

Jack Horner = corner

Jam jar = car

Jam tart = heart

Jay kay = takeaway

Jessica = Jessica Tandy = Brandy.

J. Arthur = J. Arthur Rank (1930s UK flour magnate and film producer) = wank (i.e. masturbate)

Jimmy = Jimmy Riddle (unknown person, not the character killed during the Waco siege) = piddle or widdle (urinate)

Jekyll and Hyde = snide

Joe Blakes = the shakes = experienced after a heavy night drinking

Joe Blake = a snake

Judiths = Judith Chalmers = farmers = Farmer Giles = piles (haemorrhoids)

Jugs = jugs of beer = ears

Jungle Jim = Tim (Irish Catholic, usually a Celtic supporter)

Kerry = Kerry Packered = knackered (worn out, broken or tired)

Khyber = Khyber Pass = arse

Kick and prance = dance

Lady Godiva = fiver (i.e. five-pound note)

Leo = Leo Sayer = all dayer ("I'm on a Leo" — drinking all day at the pub)

Lionels = Lionel Blairs (English variety performer) = flares (as in flared trousers)

Listerine = [from "Anti-septic" derived from "septic tank" = "yank"] disliking Americans [Listerine is clever slang but isn't really rhyming slang]

Loaf = loaf of bread = head ("use your loaf")

Loop the loop = soup ("nice cup of loop the loop").

Marie Corelli = belly = stomach

Merchant banker = wanker

Mickey Bliss = piss (as in "take the Mickey" = "take the piss" = satirise)

Mickey Mouse(r) = Scouse(r) = person from Liverpool

Minces = mince pies = eyes

Moby Dick = sick

Mutton = Mutt and Jeff = deaf = named after Mutt and Jeff, two early 20th century comic strip characters (also rendered "Mutton Jeff")

Nails 'n' screws = news

Nat King Cole = Dole (usually Old King Cole)

Nelson = Nelson Mandela = Stella (Stella Artois), a Belgian brand of lager

Nobbies = Nobby Stiles (English footballer) = piles (haemorrhoids)

North and south = mouth

Nuclear Sub = corner pub

Oily = oily rag = fag (i.e. cigarette)

Old Jack Lang = slang

Old King Cole = dole

Ones and twos = shoes (doubtful, see Rhythms)

Optic = optic nerve = perv = to look, usually with a sexual nuance, or a pervert

Orchestras = orchestra stalls = balls (Orchestra stalls = part of a concert or other hall. Example = "A kick in the orchestras.") [Coincidentally, "orchi-" is also the Greek root meaning "testicle."]

Oxford = Oxford scholar = dollar (Five shillings in pre-decimal currency)

Pat Malone = alone

Peckham Rye = tie (i.e. necktie)

Pedigree chum = bum (i.e. buttocks)

Pen and ink = stink

Pete Tong = Wrong (Also used in the name of a movie "It's all gone Pete Tong")

Pigs ears = beers (Ale)

Pineapple = chapel (Roman Catholic Church)

Ping-Pong = strong

Plaster = Plaster of Paris = Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse (a three-stage rhyme) ]

Plates = plates of meat = feet

Porky = pork pie = lie, e.g. "He's telling porkies!"

Pony = pony and trap = crap (note: Cockneys also use "pony" to mean £25 — hopefully the meaning is clear from the context)

Pride and joy = boy

Rabbit = rabbit and pork = talk, as in "She can rabbit on."

Radio Rental = mental.

Raspberry = raspberry tart = fart (as in "blowing raspberry/ies" = making rasping noises with your mouth)

Raspberry ripple = cripple (disability rhyming slang)

Read 'n' Write = fight

Richard = Richard the Third = turd (lump of faeces)

Ringo's = car keys (ringo starr = richard starkey = car key)

Road cone = motor neurone (disability rhyming slang)

Rock 'n' roll = Dole

Round the houses = trousers

Rub-a-dub-dub = a sub (an advance on wages)

Rubber and plastic = spastic (i.e. cerebral palsy) (disability rhyming slang)

Rubbity = rub-a-dub-dub (or just rub-a-dub) = pub = public house

Ruby = Ruby Murray (popular singer in the 1950s born in Belfast) = curry

Salmon and trout = snout = tobacco/cigarettes

Saucepans = saucepan lids = kids

Scarper = not rhyming slang, derived from the Italian word 'scappare' meaning 'escape'. Commonly and incorrectly ascribed to rhyming slang for Scapa Flow.

Scooby Doo = clue, as in "Sorry mate, haven't got a Scooby Doo". Alternative usage "I'm scoobied".

Septic (often "Seppo") = septic tank = Yank (slang for an American)

Sexton Blake = steak

Sherbet = Sherbet Dab (child's sweet with Licorice & Sherbet) = (taxi) cab

Sherman = Sherman Tank = wank. Also Yank, i.e. American.

Sigourney = Sigourney Weaver = beaver (vagina)

Single = single fish = pish (urinate)

Skin = skin and blister = sister

Sky = sky rocket = pocket

Sky diver = fiver (i.e. a five-pound note)

Snout = salmon and trout = smoked salmon = smoke = a cigarette

Stoke-on-Trent = bent (homosexual)

Strawberry roan = motor neurone (disease) (disability rhyming slang)

Saint Louis Blues = shoes.

Sweaty = sweaty sock = jock (a derogatory term for a Scottish person)

Sweeney = Sweeny Todd = Flying Squad a serious crime, fast response metropolitan police dept.

Syrup / sirrup = syrup of figs = wig(s)

Taters = potatoes in the mould = cold (e.g. "It's bleedin' taters!")

Tea leaf = thief

Teapot Lid = Yid (a Jewish person)

The Sweeney = Sweeney Todd = Flying Squad, a special division of the Metropolitan Police; used as the title of TV series The Sweeney

Thrup'ny bits = tits (breasts) threepenny bit (an obsolete pre-decimal coin worth three old pennies-when there was 240 pennies to a pound)

Tiddly = tiddly winks = drinks

Titfer = tit for tat = hat

Thomas the Tank = wank.

Thomas the Rhymer = alzheimer (disease) (disability rhyming slang)

Tod = Tod Sloane = own (as in "on your tod", meaning "alone")

Tom Dick or Tom and Dick = sick

Tom = Tomfoolery = jewellery

Tom Kite = shite

Tom Tit = shit

Treacle = treacle tart = heart or sweetheart

Trouble = trouble and strife = wife

Tulips and roses — multiple sclerosis (disability rhyming slang)

Two-an = two-and-eight = state (as in "He was in a right two-and-eight.")

Vera = Vera Lynn (famous British wartime singer)= gin, heroin

Vitus Geralitis = arthritis (disability rhyming slang)

Wallace = Wallace and Gromit = Vomit, as in "it made me want to wallace".

Wally = Wally Grout = shout (buy a round of drinks), as in "It's your Wally." Also stout or snout depending on context [could be Australian, Wally Grout being an Australian Cricketer.]

Walter(s) = Walter Mitty = titty (breast) = as in "a crackin' pair of walters"

Whistle = whistle and flute = suit = as in "a nice whistle"

Winona Ryder = Cider

Willy = Willy Woofter = poofter (Homosexual) Also Wooly

Barefootguru 02:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have come across the following: 1)Jack Palance-dance 2)A Laugh & A Prank -wank

I'm really glad this list has been pulled. It was full of utter rubbish and blatant non-cockney stuff. Much better to leave three undisputed "classic" examples. Mrsteviec 06:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Glad it's still here for our amusment though. Trouble with Wicktionary is it's getting immensely compicated, trying to define every word in every language in every other language, that's probably 2E12 definitons, plus entymology, usage etc.... See for example Ginger beer, which has traslated the primary meaning into Polish and Slovene, and the CRS meaning only into English - if that's a translation. Rich Farmbrough 15:12, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You may have been a little overzealous; a few of the terms are still used in the article (berk, dukes) without a complete explanation of their meaning. Pimlottc 08:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the time I got to it, berk was defined in the article, but I don't see the harm in reintroducing "dukes" to the glossary. The alternative would be to define it in the sentence about American use, which would be pretty convoluted and ungainly, IMO. Lusanaherandraton 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: New Template

crs-4

This geezer well rabbits Chitty Chitty Bang Bang nearly like 'e were a right David 'Ockney.

What is this?! --FlareNUKE 10:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it’s meant to be one of those ‘I speak this language at level x’ boxes you put on your user page… Barefootguru 18:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does it work in reverse?

e.g. Does anyone ever say, for example, "I'm going to eat some stairs" (i.e. apples and pears)? (I'm afraid I couldn't work out how to get the title of this section onto a new line - tried blank lines and <br>) Arganoid 01:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

TfD nomination of Template:User crs-4

Template:User crs-4 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:user crs-4. Thank you.

A wonderful new piece of rhyming slang has come to my attention recently: 'James Blunt,' which refers to, inevitably, 'Cunt.'

Bap?

The section on Northern Ireland usage says that calling hair "bap" has something to do with "loaf of bread"="head." Can anyone clarify? Lusanaherandraton 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dukes

According to this, there is a derivation that goes from Dukes of York, to fork, which implies hand, which implies fist. According to the Romani Language article also in Wikipedia, 'dukes' is a word borrowed from the Gypsies, directly translated as 'fist'. Can anyone provide at least a personal knowledge of the CRS derivation? 75.13.41.181 05:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)Patrick[reply]

"Dukes" is not CRS, but is, as you correctly state directly "borrowed" from the Romani language. Hope this helps. Lion King 23:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both sides of my family are from Millwall and Southwark - not one member including myself has ever heard of "Fork" as being CRS for "Hand". The correct CRS is "German", German Band = Hand, from the old music hall song; "Down At The Old Bull And Bush" ("hear the little German Band.. just let me hold your hand dear").[3] Hope this helps. Lion King 16:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Rich Farmbrough, 10:27 12 September 2006 (GMT).

Use Modern Examples!

Apples and pears? Frog and Toad? Barnet Fair? I think we should get rid of these and replace them with examples that are used by people other than pensioners.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS)

I find this comment "ageist" and highly offensive. Without "pensioners" there would be no rhyming slang - do you think it came into being sometime in the late 1990's? Lion King 12:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You find something you read on the internet by someone you dont even know offensive? You need a girlfriend. And a life. But no, i dont think it came into being in the 1990s, i was merely saying that people dont use apples and pears etc any more.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS) .

You know, there's not much in the world as pathetic as someone like you who spends their lives stewing about whether other people have a "girlfriend". You've just lost whatever support you might have had from me for your arrogant assumptions about things that are none of your business. 70.105.41.182 14:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Especially when they state blatant assumptions as facts and assume that just because it's written online (er, typed, but the point is still there) it's less offensive than if it were to be said to one's face. CameoAppearance 02:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dont have your support? Oh dear, thats a shame. So...back to apples and pears...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS) .

For entering into such a petty, mud-slinging debate, I think you're all twats! :D Hang your heads in shame, stop the personal attacks, and get on with the editing of the encyclopaedia. --84.71.118.198 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I take it that you consider calling people "twats", not to be a personal attack then? Interesting.... Lion King 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Get a sense of humour, you... oh, for crying out loud, see what you made me do? --84.71.118.198 10:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Sof! A Sof! Alaichem sholom. Lion King 13:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I added 'bread' before I read the comment, but I then thought "this is an important example because it is used even in the US", so I left it. JMcC 18:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I am not familiar with Rhyming Slang I would find it very helpful if the examples were in some way classified as "obsolete", "obsolescent", if they are no longer used or if their use is restricted to the older generation of speakers.Unoffensive text or character 09:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I stall have a large batch of Heat (magazine) from c.2003 and the term "dodgy barnet" is ubiquitous. Format 21:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CRS?

Must we have an acronym in this article? Although the Manual of Style says nothing to forbid it, it looks unprofessional to me. I certainly haven't ever seen anyone use such a term in print before, and it doesn't seem to have a purpose other than you guys being too lazy to type 'Cockney rhyming slang' out in full. The Google Test will back me up: 189,000 for "Cockney rhyming slang", and 452 for that phrase plus "CRS", a lot of which are probably Wikipedia leechers anyway. --84.71.118.198 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No Change, Only Rearrange

I rearranged the article into a more logical flow. Also, spritzed up the formatting. --TallulahBelle 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But honestly though, how about some modern examples?

I see the last time someone tried to raise this issue it got into a very silly argument. The point is rhyming slang is alive and well - every Brit likes a cup of Rosie, not to mention a Ruby Murray. So how about some modern examples? Or is this all written for septics?

I agree. I think we should have the terms: rabbit, bristols, septic, cobblers, porkies, butchers, and jack jones. just my opinion.

Casting the net a bit wide?

We've cut down on the examples of commonly used CRS and are insetead getting general UK or CRS painted as local to other regions

"arse, the Scots word for buttocks" Arse = UK word for, um, arse.
In Republic Of Ireland "Brown bread =>dead" Certainly London/CRS if not near universal.

Rich Farmbrough, 10:23 12 September 2006 (GMT).

The references section does not cite its references!

Ahh, Wikipedia, you've done it again. --210.49.99.248 12:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'd like to suggest we pull this tag. The bloody section IS a list of references! RandyKaelber 04:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why the length limit?

Hello - A comment line in this article says we shouldn't add any more examples. But why not? As they say, the Wikipedia is not paper. The only legitimate worry I can think of is that the entries might not be authentic. To cover this, we should require that each new entry be backed up by a reference source and footnoted with <ref>...</ref>

The reason I'm asking is because a random user asked on the Talk page for piano (which I edit) why "Joanna" is slang for "piano". It ought to be possible to refer people to Cockney rhyming slang to explain such cases.

"Joanna" would in fact qualify for inclusion under my proposed criterion, as it is listed in the most authoritative of sources, the OED. Cheers, Opus33 04:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we really want a length limit. The reason is policy: For more detailed reasons, see WP:WINAD, particularly the section 'Wikipedia is not a usage guide' where it says:

"Wikipedia is not a hacker/computer usage or other slang and idiom guide. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a hacker or a Cockney chimney-sweep; we're writing an encyclopedia. See meta:Knocking her dead one on the nose each and every double trey for a historical example."

--ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How does it spread?

Something I've always wondered about. How does a phrase become 'current'? After a certain point, enough popular people using it would cause a larger view, but how does someone create a new one? Does he just start using it and explain it every time, or what? --StarChaser Tyger 05:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

origins

Something that amazes me in discussions about how various verbal styles develop: the absence of the word "fun". I searched the text in the article and in the discussion here, and it surprised me that "fun" did not make an appearance. I suppose I'm just stupendously naive -- but while the various hypotheses offered for "why" people start talking the way they do and why and how various forms catch on and spread are fascinating, I find it odd that no one seems to entertain the radical idea that people do it because they enjoy it. Bacrito 06:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"a garden with Richard"

I couldn't find anything on the Web except this article to attest to such an expression. Bacrito 06:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page move

I have moved the page for three reasons:

We didn't have an article on RS in general (i.e. non-Cockney RS)
I don't believe it's an established fact that RS originated solely with Cockneys/East Enders. There are examples from other languages, not to mention in America, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Since it was not documented in London until the mid-19th century it's even possible that it originated elsewhere...
All of these places have their own localised RS. Chunder for vomit originated as Chunder Loo, an Aussie cartoon character and Aussie RS for "spew". My dad, like a lot of Aussies of his generation, refers to snakes as "Joe Blake", I bet you don't get many of them in the East End. "Barry Crocker" (for shocker) has come into widespread use in Australia and has been traced back to one person (Fatty Vautin); bet you never hear that one in the East End. And so on.
Who's to say that CRS doesn't pick up rhyming slang from elsewhere? This page used to have RS terms that are familiar to me as an Aussie. It appears they have since been removed as uncommon or extinct in CRS. Q.E.D. I think. Cheers, Grant | Talk 16:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You rest your case? Based on what? Conjecture? Let's look at your source, namely: "Most likely it was the lexical invention of Cockney and Irish navvies and only later made its way into the cant of the victorian underworld." So Irish navvies "invented" it along with Cockneys. No. Irish navvies didn't even understand it, let alone help to "invent" it, Henry Mayhew writes in London Labour and the London Poor: "The slang language of the Costermongers is not very remarkable for orignality of constuction; but they boast that it is known only to themselves; it is far beyond the Irish, and puzzles the Jews." So that takes Irish navvies out of the picture. I think we all went on a day trip to Earls Court and picked it up from you lot, me old cobbler - yor avin a bubble! La linqua non ha ossa ma rompe il dorso! Lion King (talk) 11:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Australian Rhyming Slang Lion King (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]