Talk:Bass violin

Violin octet

It's really bad that this article doesn't even mention the bass member of the Violin octet, which is the normal usage for the term "bass violin." Badagnani (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't include that originally because I wasn't sure if that name was correct. I saw "contrabass" and "small bass" and "baritone" instruments of the violin octet, but none called simply "bass violin." FYI, the baritone of the new family looks like it is quite similar to the instrument described in this entry.BassHistory (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I see! Whatever qualifications need to be made should be made. Before I read your article, I followed the conventional wisdom that the only true "bass violin" was the bass member of the violin octet. Badagnani (talk) 03:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

My view is this: any unpropotional size relation between members of the tradition violin family relates to the violin octet article. To include it here would be a subjective assertion on the part of the editor in order to convince readers of the importance of the violin octet. Furthermore, as I already stated, the proportions of the bass violin acually were somewhat similar to the "cello" of the violin octet. I was somewhat better suited to basslines than the cello. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs) 05:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you are correct about this. The images you've claimed as "bass violins" are considerably deeper than would be a proportionally larger version of the (soprano) violin. I strongly disagree that this crucial aspect of the design and construction of this instrument be willfully kept out of the article. Badagnani (talk) 06:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want to add a section of the article about the structure of the basso da braccio, feel free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs) 06:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Image

Please add an image of what you believe to be a "bass violin." Badagnani (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of any, but if you find any please feel free to do so. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs)

If you're writing about this instrument, you must know of images of it. Badagnani (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

All the xtant instruments have been chopped down in size to turn them into cellos. BassHistory (talk) 03:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

If it's a "bass violin," it would be impractical to play and the sides wouldn't be as deep as a cello. That's true of the bass violin in the violin octet. That is why your article is so confusing, because conventional wisdom is that a true "bass violin" was not made until the creation of the bass violin of the violin octet. Badagnani (talk) 03:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Check Grove.BassHistory (talk) 03:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to deal with copywrite issues on here. I see you've been on here for a while. if you want to add one I can tell you where they are.BassHistory (talk) 04:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Images that I know of include:

Woodcuts in Praetorius's Syntagma Musicum
Various paintings by Gaudenzio Ferrari depict bass violins
Pictures of the King Violoncello by Andrea Amati (originally a bass violin)
BassHistory (talk) 05:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll add a link to http://cello.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=GraphicDetailPage&GraphicID=45 this image]. Why does the image show five strings, but the article doesn't mention five strings? Badagnani (talk) 05:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Because it really just wasn't that standardized yet. The important thing is waht did Praetorius call it? Yes, I think that image would be good for this article. It was pre-cello, and not a viol (I would say).BassHistory (talk) 05:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!BassHistory (talk) 05:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone should get the painting by Dirk Hals Das Solo. It's of a a bass violin.BassHistory (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Here it is (painted in 1631). Put it where you want. Looks like a cello to me. Badagnani (talk) 04:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it looks like a cello. Only a little bigger.BassHistory (talk) 04:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Does it have four or five strings? I think a couple of the "strings" are shadows. Badagnani (talk) 04:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe it was a five-string, which was popular for a while. Are we really allowed to just grab stuff and put it up?BassHistory (talk) 04:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If it's a photo of a painting taken in the last 75 or so years, apparently the photographer would still own the copyright. Badagnani (talk) 04:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The article still does not mention that "bass violins" could have five strings, though the Praetorius woodcut clearly shows one. In fact, contrary to the woodcut, the text of the article says it did not have five strings. Badagnani (talk) 04:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

That a good point. I'll change that.BassHistory (talk) 04:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If the "standard specimen" was depicted with five strings, I'd dispute your claim that "it almost never had five strings." Your claim is that in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, 5-string "bass violins" were as unusual as were 5-string cellos at the time Bach wrote the cello suites? That really doesn't explain why Praetorius would depict such a non-standard instrument in his reference work. Badagnani (talk) 05:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. Again, read Grove. And read the Bonta articles. I can't explain everything to you. Again, your disputing me, but what I'm saying here is generally accepted.BassHistory (talk) 05:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I am asking questions that others will also ask. We all know that individual articles in Grove are often incomplete, and sometimes wrong. Saying something like "I don't have time to explain this to you" is patronizing and does a disservice to our thousands of readers all over the world who will also ask this same question, which is quite valid. Badagnani (talk) 05:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't patronizing you. I just don't have time for every little question you have, that's not my job here. This is an encyclopedia article, there's only so much that can be expected. It can't be all-encompassing. Five-string models were less standard, there's no reason to go further into it. "I am asking questions that others will also ask." And that's what the references are for. So people can actually go to the library and read more about it if they want to.

First, these aren't "little" questions and second, you wrote this article, using an English name that was not used at the time, and not fully explaining things that need to be set out, such as that the proportions are not those of the (soprano) violin. These things need to be addressed to make the article complete and "finished," as we are based on continual improvement, and thus you cannot claim it's bothersome to address significant points such as these. Badagnani (talk) 05:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If five-string models were less standard, yet surely did exist, then that should be stated in the article. Among the available iconographic examples, what is the proportion of five-string to four- and three-string instruments? Badagnani (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a good question. Find out, and tell me your sources.BassHistory (talk) 05:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Amati didn't have a problem with his proportions, and neither do most modern cellists with their cellos. That point is just not significat in understanding this instrument. It is a good point; for the violin octet article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs) 05:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The entirely illogical refusal to acknowledge that the iconography shows quite different proportions between the violin and the "bass violin" does a great disservice to our readers at best, and at worst this willful exclusion seems to show POV on the part of the editor who began this article. The proportions are actually quite different, with the instrument being deeper and less wide in proportion than a violin. This needs to be addressed in this article. No, cellists don't have a "problem" with this, and I don't even know why you would mention a "problem." It is not a problem, it is a fact. Using the English title "bass violin" (which apparently was never used in English at the time, as you apparently indicate) implies that this is an instrument with essentially the same proportions, only larger. The viols did have essentially the same proportions yet this instrument does not. Not to acknowledge this truism is simply unacceptable. Are you claiming that no reputable source mentions this difference in proportions? If anything, we need to explain why the instrument makers modified these proportions, which presumably were arrived at via trial and error, and a number of "transitional" instruments with various proportions that didn't work as well (better sound? more practical to get one's arms around the instrument? some other reason(s)?) Badagnani (talk) 05:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent additions: I'm quite sure those are all contrabass viols with violin family features, not bass violins.BassHistory (talk) 07:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

When you say "all," do you mean "both"? I'd agree with you on this. We want to find the original painting of the Lely, so if you know which museum it's in, we're going to try to send a Wikipedian who lives nearby to inspect it to see about frets and number of strings. Badagnani (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The Simpson image is obviously intended to show something that its author would have classified as what the book is about, an instrument for the specifically English tradition of "division viol" playing. The Lely picture may well show something similar, although I would guess Simpson's "division viol" would have been smaller and the Lely instrument is significantly more da braccio-like. But if you prefer to have these removed, feel free. Perhaps we should concentrate the main parts of this article to the Italian developments, and only treat the existence of such hybrid forms in a subsection. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If what is being called "bass violin" (i.e. 16th-century/early 17th century proto-violoncello) looks pretty much like an early version of a Baroque cello, I suppose those are the instruments we should show. Badagnani (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone should get the painting by Dirk Hals [Das Solo]. It's of a a bass violin. I'm sure of it. Although, it is often mistakenly called The Cello Player. Also, this one is perfect. Here's one. And again. The website cello.org calls him a "Baroque bass violinist," so I don't think there's much doubt.BassHistory (talk) 19:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as the hybrid instruments I mentioned, they would be in paintings by Gaudenzio Ferrari, or in other Northern Italian paintings between c1410 and c1460.BassHistory (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What's the number of strings in the Hals? Some of them seem to be shadows. Badagnani (talk) 20:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This website presents the Ferrari bass as a gamba. Though the shape is violin/cello-like, the presence of frets in the blowup of the image leads me to agree with this. Badagnani (talk) 20:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hals: I've heard it called a five-string before, but I can't tell.

Ferrari: I've never said that the instruments depicted were "definately violins," or even "not viols." I've encountered several scholarly references to his paintings, in the context of early violin family instruments. Also, many of the same luthiers in northern Italy made both viols and violins, so crossover is natural. It's a "where and when" thing.

www.thecipher.com: Great art, but he doesn't know where half of it comes from! He also mekes some generalizations that I'm not sure of, such as: "All one really has to show is that there are more than three strings on this instrument..." and, "If my dating is correct, four or more strings automatically makes this a viol." and, "There’s no shape that violins did first in any event. They brought nothing new, inovative, or original, in the shape and contours department..."BassHistory (talk) 21:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I would be VERY skeptical of a guitar tablature website, although it it worth looking at the art presented.BassHistory (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In the [Simon De Passe] etching he gives here, the fretless five-string instrument may be a bass violin, from what I can see. Hard to tell.BassHistory (talk) 21:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No endpin does not mean viol or violin.BassHistory (talk) 23:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Reportoire

Someone should add a section about what music was written for the "bass violin."BassHistory (talk) 09:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I would look into Monteverdi and Corelli.BassHistory (talk) 09:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Will do, give me some time. I have an old paper I once wrote for university sitting somewhere on my shelf that has some of the relevant data. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~lambsmit/files/Download/bachsvioloneandvioloncellocorr291005.pdf Added this article, looked interesting.BassHistory (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Communication

Can we please communicate the normal way, by asking and answering questions on this talk page, rather than by inserting comments in the article? Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. But in some cases, editing comments are called for. Badagnani (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

But you use them all the time, and it's frustrating.BassHistory (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Praetorius image

The web source of the image referenced above ([1]) quotes Praetorius as calling it Bas-Geig de bracio (where Geig, obviously, is the German word for violin, or possibly for bowed instruments in general). de bracio identifies the family, as opposed to da gamba (viols). Of course, it has nothing to do with whether any particular member of a family was actually played "on the arm" or "on the legs" - the bass instruments of either family obviouly were held between the legs.

The website unfortunately doesn't give the page, but I have no doubt the image is authentic; I've seen the Praetorius book and it does have these types of illustrations.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the page number can be googled, it's probably in one of the articles too.BassHistory (talk) 19:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You removed the editing comment without actually doing the legwork and getting the page number. That is very bad. Badagnani (talk) 04:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Relax. The admin guy said he preffered that we didn't do that, and I agree. It's cluttered.

What is a bass violin?

- At first they were like 3-string violas played a gamba(c1525-?) Later they were like large cellos (c1550-c1700?). You have to make the distiction. There are instruments in the vioa da braccio family, like the cello, that are played a gamba. It's common knowledge. Read the articles posted. Some had endpins, some didn't.BassHistory (talk) 19:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I know the terminology is confusing.BassHistory (talk) 19:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not just you, Badagnani, people have been scratching there heads over the differences since the 1480s.BassHistory (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Praetorius woodcut (cello-like shape, no frets, endpin) makes it appear like an instrument in the "violin family." However, it really should be made clear in the article that the proportions of the bass violin are, of necessity, not those of a violin. (Although the bass violin in the violin octet apparently is made to exactly the proportions of a regular violin.) The confusion is that the bass violin really isn't a "true violin" as it's proportions are different, but was and is considered an instrument in this family, to be played in a set, providing the bass line for the smaller ones. Badagnani (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of this article should not be to sell people on the violin octet. "However, it really should be made clear in the article that the proportions of the bass violin are, of necessity, not those of a violin." That sounds like info for the violin octet article, not here. "The confusion is that the bass violin really isn't a "true violin" as it's proportions are different..." It is not defined by its proportions. Its defined by its function. The bass violin discussed here was, by definition, in the violin family. This is not disputed. Again, check Grove please.BassHistory (talk) 04:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly dispute your implication that I am trying to "sell" anything and maintain strongly that the article needs to explain that the proportions of the "bass violin" (this term apparently never used in English during the Baroque period), correct?) are dissimilar to those of those of the violin. This is not the case with other "matched set" families of instruments. Badagnani (talk) 04:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Name

Was the name "bass violin" used in English in the late 16th and early 17th centuries? Was the exact Italian name "violino basso" used? If not, then our English title is not quite accurate, and this needs to be stated in the lead of the article. I realize that we don't call the Piano article "Gravicembalo pian' e forte," or even "Pianoforte," but if the term "bass violin" was never used (or its exact Italian equivalent), that needs to be specified right at the top. Badagnani (talk) 05:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"Basso viola da braccio" was often the name. The English title is accurate, it was the bass (not contrabass) of the violin (ie. viola da braccio) family.BassHistory (talk) 05:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What was the name used in England for this instrument? We are the English-language Wikipedia. Further, as we have no Viola da braccio article (it redirects to Violin family), I am unconvinced that what was called the viola da braccio was exactly the same as the Amati/Stradivari violin; I understood that the Amati/Stradivari violin was based on the older/cruder viola da braccio. We should avoid "invented"/inaccurate terms like "bass violin" if they were not actually used in England during that period and, if it was still based on the viola da braccio and not something called a violin, the article title perhaps should be "bass viola da braccio." Badagnani (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Terminology of the time was overlapping, ambiguous and confusing. That's why today its called the bass violin. Are you seriously trying to argue with Bonta, et al?Viola da Braccio family=violin family. Why ask me if you don't trust me? Again, all your questions can easily be answered by reading Grove, Grout, or any standard academic resource. They are to many for me to answer individually. Sorry.BassHistory (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

All right, you now have a special status which no other Wikipedia editor has, just "going it alone" and ignoring queries on "Discussion" pages. That's very unusual, rather disturbing, and reflects poorly on you as an editor. I've already pointed out two or three deficiencies with the article which were quite valid and need to be addressed and I am doing so in good faith. I hope you will do the same, as we do owe it to our users to have the best, most complete article possible. The article should leave no room for any of these fundamental questions; they should all be answered so that readers leave without saying "that's strange they didn't mention X..." Badagnani (talk) 05:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If you believe "Terminology of the time was overlapping, ambiguous and confusing. That's why today its called the bass violin", yet you believe all instruments that fit the bill are "bass violins," this needs to be spelled out in the article. Badagnani (talk) 05:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

You may have a point. Why don't you research that point? I'd like to see what you find. I'm actually not sure what it was called in English, but outside of Italy the translation was sometimes poor. Anyway, I think the English used more viols back then, so it may not be easy to find.BassHistory (talk) 05:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"Disturbing," "very bad..." You exaggerate. Please calm down. Am I really ignoring you?BassHistory (talk) 05:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said, YOU find out what it was called in England. I've worked quite a bit on this so far.BassHistory (talk) 05:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a note about the historical names: Contemporary names in England would be interesting, but not decisive for our naming practices. We are the English Wikipedia, but not the 17th-century-English Wikipedia. Relevant for us is what English-speaking scholarship uses today, and yes, it does use "bass violin" as a generic name for older bass members of the da braccio family. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

English name, more sources

Some more random sources:

• 1740 English encyclopedia confirming contemporary usage of "bass violin"
• some quotes about contemporary terminology
• Online paper about the history of "violone", "bass violin" and related instruments; with a critical review of the papers by Bonta

So much for now, Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The 1740 source is simply amazing. What a find! That entire definition should be added to the article, showing the term's actual use in English. I'm curious how you found this. One question: why doesn't it just call it a "violoncello" or "cello," which certainly existed and was called by that name by 1740? Badagnani (talk) 18:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? :-) Actually it was a random find in google, through the reference in the second one. I guess it just shows that violoncello was still felt to be a foreign Italian term at the time? Anyway, yes, whoever finds the time could certainly integrate a few quotes from it in the article. I'm impressed how well all these bass- or viol- or cello-enthusiasts are organised on the web, they seem to have various societies who have put a huge lot of interesting historical material online. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Bravo! Does "stops" mean frets here, or positions? I would be quite interested to know if 18th century English "bass violins" had frets.BassHistory (talk) 20:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Six strings? OK, I'll change the intro again.BassHistory (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The text says "four strings" and "eight stops," not "six strings." Badagnani (talk) 20:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Read VIOLONCELLO.BassHistory (talk) 21:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There were certainly some early cellos (i.e.: "real", small violon-cellos) with more than four strings, that much is certain. Bach's instrument for the D major Cello Suite is not entirely isolated. But six must have been rather an exception. When they talk of frets, they may actually be thinking of some of those hybrid instruments. They must have been common in England, where fretted viols were far more common than real da braccios for a while. As far as I know, Italian instruments tended to stick more to the "real" da braccio prototype. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

That sounds about right.BassHistory (talk) 22:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[Weigel Violon Image]

Future Perfect, will you help me translate the caption at the bottom? Again, it's called a violon, which wont help with determining family. It's from Musicalisches Theatrum (Nurnberg, c.1715). A review in The Musical Times calls the instrument a bass violin, like that of Preatorius.BassHistory (talk) 00:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL, I just love German baroque verse. How did they think that stuff up? Here goes:

Let Padua yonder pride itself of its viol ["Gambe"],
I still do better service with my violone ["Violon"].
I have earned eternal praise with this art,
and am justly called a true son of the Muses.
As my strings sound even on Helicon,
Apollo himself will crown these cheerful brows.

I'm not sure why Padua was especially associated with viols. Was it a center of viol-making, like Cremona for the violins or something? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's great! The verse is evidence that it was indeed a bass violin, as opposed to a "gambe." I'm not absolutely sure about Padua, but neighboring Venice was an important center for the development of the viol in the sixteenth century (Woodfield 123-35).BassHistory (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There were instrument makers in Padua, going way back. The caption says "violone," not "bass violin." "Violone" can mean two or more things. Badagnani (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

No frets. Violin family features (curled C-bouts, F-holes...). Anyway, from the descriptions we get of the bass violin, this is what it looked like. They looked like cellos, only larger, but smaller than a modern double bass. And the name "violon" does not prove anything either way.BassHistory (talk) 03:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that "-on" ("-one") means "large." Badagnani (talk) 03:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

And? Anyway, a review in ['The Musical Times'] calls the instrument here "Praetorius's old 5-stringed Bas- Geig de bracio..."BassHistory (talk) 03:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

This [article] in Music and Letters" calls it a "large, five-stringed cello..."BassHistory (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

More confirmation--that's good. It's like a detective story being solved. Whatever you find this way, don't forget to put it into the article. Badagnani (talk) 04:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

If you could add the print, that would be great.BassHistory (talk) 04:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

"Violin family" features?

Hello Mr. BassHistory, I'm the guy behind TheCipher.com -- which btw has nothing to do with "guitar tab". I submit that one can't begin to understand early violin family history without being intimately familiar with the early history of viols as well, and then the 16th century "Italianate" feature-set generally. If you were familiar with early viols you'd understand that there really is no such thing as "violin family" features as you (and many other moderns) concieve of them, from F-holes to flared C-bouts, carved tops, scroll finials, thin ribs, square shoulders, end pins, sound posts, played on the arm, you name it, none of those things (and more) were exclusive to the violin or da braccio family, nor did any of those things commence or appear first with the early violin or da braccio family. A good amount of initiation homework awaits you, me thinks. Although I tried very hard to make that an easier task for you and others, I gather you find my site's presentation wanting, so I wish you luck finding a better resource in this lifetime. http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher.html Thanks. Roger Cyclocifra (talk) 08:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)