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December 8

"payed out"?

The official past tense of "to pay" in virtually all senses is "paid". You'll occasionally see "payed", which is usually wrong, and tends to be listed in dictionaries only as an archaic form. However, in one sense -- to pay out a cable or line -- that spelling seems almost right to me, and perhaps even preferable to "paid out". Am I making this up? Some google searches I just did are suggestive (i.e. that the usage is out there), but by no means conclusive. —Steve Summit (talk) 04:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Chambers Dictionary, 1983 ed. shews payed as obsolete except in the nautical sense (paying out a line, as you mentioned). I may have to start using payed, it looks so much nicer on the page. The different verb pay, meaning to smear with tar, has as its only listed past form as payed. DuncanHill (talk) 04:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Chambers is British, so I looked at some American dictionaries via http://www.onelook.com. Merriam-Webster and American Heritage both list "paid or payed" in connection with paying out a line, but Encarta does not. The Random House Unabridged as quoted by dictionary.com says that "payed" is non-obsolete in "senses 12 and 24c", but their numbering is wrong; there is no 24c. Presumably they mean 30c, which is the sense in question. 12 is another nautical usage, "to let (a ship) fall off to leeward", not mentioned in the other dictionaries.

For the other verb "pay" that Duncan mentions, the one about smearing with tar (which I'd never heard of before), M-W and AHD both show "payed or paid" and RHU shows only "payed".

--Anonymous, 05:37 UTC, December 8, 2007.

Sometimes for the fun of it, I like to make other verbs that end in -ay follow the pattern of lay/laid, say/said, and pay/paid: "I staid there three days", "The children plaid outside", "The donkey braid", "We praid for forgiveness, saying 'We have erred and straid from Thy ways like lost sheep...'", and so forth. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 14:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The OED (online version) simply says "Past tense and past participle paid, payed." While noting "payed" is "chiefly Naut.", it doesn't mention anything about the form being archaic or obsolete. Pfly (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all the corroborations. (Sounds like I wasn't just making it up!) —Steve Summit (talk) 23:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

To perfect in French

How do you say 'to perfect' (ie the verb perfect) in French? Computerjoe's talk 17:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

According to the first dictionary Google gave me, you want 'parfaire'. Algebraist 18:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a good word, and so is perfectionner. Wareh (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks guys. And be civil, Algebraist :P. Computerjoe's talk 14:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, did that come across as uncivil? I was just citing my sources... Algebraist 15:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Pidgin

Sit two people in a room who speak two completely unrelated languages.

What is the first thing they will likely communicate? How long before they can start exchanging abstract concepts?

Any experiments that did this? Caffm8 (talk) 23:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a conjecture: each would point to him/herself and give his/her name. —Nricardo (talk) 02:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't help thinking of the poem by Susan Marr Spalding, which appeared in the New York Graphic in 1876 and has been much collected (see below)... Xn4 02:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Two shall be born the whole wide world apart;

And speak in different tongues, and have no thought

Each of the other’s being, and no heed;

And these o’er unknown seas to unknown lands

Shall cross, escaping wreck, defying death,

And all unconsciously shape every act

And bend each wandering step to this one end,—

That, one day, out of darkness, they shall meet

And read life’s meaning in each other’s eyes...

Yes, there have been. At that stage, though, it isn't called a pidgin, but rather a trade language. Steewi (talk) 02:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Expansion - the experiments placed a group of people in a room and watch the constructions. Personal information was pretty early up. Muhlhausler is a good start on reading. Pidgins form when the trade language is used for general communication, rather than situational communication (trade, etc.). It develops more standard grammatical forms and vocabulary, and children learn it growing up. When it is used as a first language, it starts to become a creole. Steewi (talk) 02:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There has been research related to this query with deaf kids -- see Nicaraguan Sign Language. The difference was, these kids had no real language at all, and invented one together. BrainyBabe (talk) 17:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

December 9

Closed word classes

I was reading something about English grammar and it said that certain classes of words were "closed". The classes included "determiners", "prepositions" and "conjunctions". I was wondering if it was possible to come up with new words to fit this category that actually have a degree of usefulness. Perhaps other languages already have words in these categories for which there is no English equivalent. Do we limit our ability of expression by not having those analogues or does it not make a difference? I'm not sure which category "a" and "the" etc fall into, but I think Japanese or Chinese or both don't have either one or both - what limits does this impose on the way they express themselves, their culture, scientific progress (alternatively, what limits does it remove)? --Seans Potato Business 17:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To answer the part I can answer, 'a' and 'the' are articles, a type of determiner. As an example of what we can gain by adding to closed classes, a second person plural pronoun is something many languages have which is lacking in English. Unless, of course, one is in certain parts of the United States, in which case one has y'all. Algebraist 17:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. What can we do with a "second person plural pronoun" that we can't do currently? --Seans Potato Business 18:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It would eliminate any confusion when you're talking to a single person among many. To specify it now, we need to add another word like "all" afterward. Consider the difference between "You are crazy!" and "You all are crazy!". Matt Deres (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Call me a reactionary, but there's a solution to that. Just reintroduce the second person singular pronoun "thou", leaving "you" as plural only, which was the way it was originally. That would eliminate the need for "you all" and such barbaric expressions as "y'all" and (cringe) "yous". Going back to a pre-existing solution that worked just fine for a millennium seems a better approach than inventing a whole new one. Thou many thank me for this idea one day. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Joking though thou mayst be, I must stand up for the rights of dialects not to be referred to as 'barbaric'. "Y'all" and "yous" belong to dialects within which they are perfectly crumulent. Of course, I would expunge them from anything meant to be in Standard English :) Ye may hold me to that. Skittle (talk) 04:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, "crumulent" appears not be a particularly crumulent word; although I acknowledge that my mention of this fact can only tend to increase its crumulence. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, 'twas a typo for cromulent. How embarrasing that my proofreading was so poor. Let the cromulicity flourish. Skittle (talk) 08:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

They don't have "a" or "the" in the Slavic languages, and as far as I know, they don't have any difficulty expressing themselves. They may, however, have trouble understanding The The. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 18:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Bulgarian has a definite suffix on nouns. To answer the original question, "closed" means that changes to the class of words are very rare, but they do happen. From the 16th century onward, they, them, their was expanded from just a plural pronoun to a singular, gender-nonspecific pronoun for certain antecedents. There are other examples not only in the pronouns but with auxiliary verbs and other closed classes as well. To what extent does the presence or absence of these kinds of words influence a culture? Not much. The Welsh have no word for together, the Moken no word for when (maybe), the English no word for Pecht, the Chinese no word for the... and yet they all have no difficulty expressing whatever they want (but don't tell that to popular journalists; they practically make a living spinning B.S. out of minor language things like this). Strad (talk) 19:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Slovenian has a set of pronouns for its "dual" number meaning "we-two", "you-two", etc: [1] Some languages distinguish between inclusive and exclusive we, French (and many other languages) have two distinct verbs for "to know" (to know how or that, and to be acquainted with), Spanish has two verbs for "to be" depending on whether the sentence concerns a temporary or an intrinsic quality... Just a few things that English doesn't have! (Just remembered: Croatian has a particle "li" which indicates the irterrogative. SaundersW (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Finnish has no articles and next to none prepositions - it mainly uses word inflections, and postpositions (and a few prepositions) in addition to them. But it still has very many closed word classes. All conjuctions, all particles, and what little there is of postpositions and prepositions are closed. Pronouns are also closed. As a rule of thumb, it's just the nouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs which are open. And the inflective and agglunative nature of Finnish can result in words such as juoksentelisinkohankaan "I wonder if I should run around aimlessly after all". JIP | Talk 20:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If we're taking requests here, I'd like English to come up with a first person plural pronoun (or maybe we need two) that specified whether the active listener was included or not. There have been many times when I've said something like, "We're going to the shop" and wanted to tactfully but specifically exclude the person I'm talking to. If you're in a quiet enough setting or if the person is a good listener, they could hear a difference emphasis on the word, but it's far from clear. Matt Deres (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a job for SaundersW. She (is Saunders a girl's name or a last name?) can put it on urbandictionary.com and we'll all vote for it, and just like that, a new first person plural pronoun! In the meantime, I suggest using "Lou Ferigno and I are going to the shop", so as not to use plural pronouns at all --Seans Potato Business 23:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. Given Lou's situation, the plural might be required anyway. Matt Deres (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Matt, an exlusive/inclusive pronoun distinction could be very useful in that situation. The Tok Pisin solution is Yumi (you and me) vs Mipela (I+plural suffix). Steewi (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Need catchy title for English report

It's about why humans need to work on colonization of Mars. 'Colonization of Mars' is a boring and bland title. Thoughts? Bellum et Pax (talk) 23:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Marz roxxorz..23:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotclaws**== (talk • contribs)

Brave New World

The Martians are Coming!

Better Red Planet than Dead Planet

On Mars one day, we'll work rest and play. [may not work outside the UK]

Life on Mars. [Especially recommended if your English teacher is a Bowie fan]

DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Better Red Planet than Dead Planet is pretty hot. Thanks! Bellum et Pax (talk) 23:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Build your own Martian

Turning the Red Planet Green

Calling All Future Martians

The Advantages of Mars-scaping

Steewi (talk) 02:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Greening the Red Planet" ?? Saukkomies 02:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

For more inspiration, see Mars Bar#Advertising slogans. Aecis^Brievenbus 08:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Man has always been domesticating something: plants, animals, landscapes, ... , Earth, Moon. And now Mars?! Domestication of Mars. --217.11.17.251 (talk) 15:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Do humans need to colonize Mars? Perhaps the answer can be the title. "Putting our eggs in more than one basket: Colonizing Mars", or, "Earth Struck Out, Mars On Deck", or something less silly. Pfly (talk) 03:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A variation on Saukommies, and a play on Lady Macbeth's handwashing (Make the green one red...): "Make the Red one Green"? SaundersW (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

December 10

Pronounce this way... or...

Is there a name for a phrase which, if pronounced differently from the word structure therein, has a different meaning? A simple example would be Mike Law transposing to my claw. This is not homework. hydnjo talk 00:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks like incorrect segmentation, an exampe of phonetic ambiguity. I don't know if there's a specific name. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 01:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mis-segregated morphology? SamuelRiv (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

See Metanalysis.--K.C. Tang (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the idea. I meant to ask if there a name in today's popular culture. I know that there is a board game that uses this re-segmentation, I was just wanting to know if there is any formal name attached. Thanks, hydnjo talk 01:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Allography might interest you too. ---Sluzzelin talk 04:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mondegreens and Daffynitions are also relevant. Graham87 10:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Mr Law should think himself lucky his surname is not Hunt. Cyta (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the article on that gentleman calls it a "homophone phrase". ---Sluzzelin talk 12:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank Saul - I think Mondegreen is it. And who wooda thought that that guy had his own WP article! I would imagine that some interesting stuff might come from speech to text editors, no?  ;-) hydnjo talk 17:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Mondegreen is close, but only applies to cases of accidental mishearing. --Anon, 04:25 UTC, December 12, 2007.

• Our definition allows for intentional mishearing - A mondegreen is the mishearing (usually unintentional) of a phrase .... -- JackofOz (talk) 04:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm, it does say that, but that's nonsensical. You can't "mishear" something deliberately. --Anonymous, 22:18 UTC, December 12.

I know what you mean. However one can, for humorous intent, pretend to have misheard something. One of my favourites is the exchange in the Australian House of Representatives many years ago, when a member of the then Country Party was on his feet and was waxing lyrical about his constituency. (The Country Party has always had a strong association with rural areas.) He said something like "I'm not a city member, I'm a country member". To which the Labor icon Fred Daly shot back "Yes, we remember". :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Just for curiousity sake, I ran the two terms through eSpeak and festival and while you can hear a difference between how they pronounce the clean and vulgar versions, you certainly couldn't tell in a blind test. - Taxman ^Talk 19:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Comma Use

I have a sentence very similar to the one below (I'm changing the names a little to generic ones, but the structure is the same). I worry that I have too many commas in the sentence, but feel that they're necessary. Can anyone give me some quick feedback? much appreciated.

While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants, and to keep elections in a more traditional, but less accessible,Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement.

--Ybbor^Talk 01:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It can easily be two sentences:

The Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible Swahili. John Smith, however, saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement.

Steewi (talk) 02:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that there needs to be a comma after John Smith. hydnjo talk 02:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"But less accessible" is parenthetical, and must have a comma after "accessible" as well as one before "but". Same for "however" if it's placed within a sentence. Better to have it at the start:

The Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible, Swahili. However, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) You can also use dashes instead of commas around "but less accessible". Each comma in the original by itself appears, however, appropriate, and I have no problem reading the sentence in its original, comma-rich form.  --Lambiam 02:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Man, you mean there isn't a cut-and-dry answer to this? That's it I'm going back to the math and science desks ;). In all seriousness, thanks. I'm going to go with Jack's two-sentance version, which seems much clearer. Thanks again to all. --Ybbor^Talk 02:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a wikt:cut and dried answer either. Another option would be to put "but less accessible" in parentheses. The occasional pair of parentheses can helpfully break up a comma-heavy sentence, but heavy use of parentheses tends to make things unreadable. For this sentence I agree that splitting it into two sentences is probably best. --Anonymous, 03:05 UTC, December 10, 2007.

I see another possible problem with the sentence - I'm not sure about to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible, Swahili. Without seeing the original words it's hard to be sure, but I feel that the "a" in that clause might be incorrect. If Swahili here is a placeholder for another language, "the" would be preferable. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "the" is right. By the "rules" of comma use, you only need one:

"While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep elections in the more traditional but less accessible Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement."

The comma after "merchants" is wrong because the conjunction is not followed by an independent clause. "But less accessible" is really parenthetical, as Jack pointed out, so although parentheticality is a judgement call, this time it's pretty clear. The comma after "Swahili" is highly recommended as a mercy to the reader. We've sent him the long way around, and it's only fair to blaze a tree where the path picks up again; we basically need a comma after a long introductory phrase. Short phrase, too, but you'll see "In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue", especially recently. So:

"While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep elections in the more traditional, but less accessible,Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement."

There are very few hard-and-fast rules about these sorts of commas. Most of what rules there are about commas are more stylistic and mechanical, like about the ones to do with dates and numbers and the ones in dialogue. One strict rule, however, is that when two independent clauses are joined by a conjunction, a comma is needed, except.... The only way is to pick a style book and stick to it. The Chicago Manual of Style is widely accepted as the American standard. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that parentheticality is often a judgment call. A test I often use is to actually use parentheses for the text in question and see how it looks. If the parentheses and their contents could be safely removed without destroying the primary sense of the sentence, it's parenthetical. Then the choice is whether to retain the parentheses, or replace them with either dashes or commas. It's not appropriate to retain only one parenthesis (eg. an opening one but not a closing one), so it's not appropriate to use only one dash or only one comma. If you regard the text as parenthetical, and you want to use commas as your marking device, then two commas are absolutely required. If you don't regard the text as parenthetical, then whatever commas you use (if any at all) will be governed by entirely different considerations. In this case, the decision of the government of Pluto was to use Swahili because it was more traditional. The fact that it was a less accessible language did not deter them from making their decision; they made it despite that. The primary reason was its traditionality. Thus, as far as the government was concerned, the lack of accessibility was irrelevant, and it would have been valid to make no mention of accessibility at all. Thus, any mention that is made of it - in a sentence like this - is parenthetical. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Run like a welshman

I was reminded of a quote from the show 'Family Guy' where the character Stewie shouts out that his father 'runs like a welshman' and wanted to know what this could be referring to.

I'm Welsh myself, so if it's a dig at us then please feel free to comment, nothing's too sacred to make fun of (not even Cymru)

I'm guessing it has something to do with either Peter (his father) being rather fat and large, and we are a slightly heavy set sort of people. Or possibly the UK nursery rhyme of 'Taffy is a Welshman, Taffy is a thief, Taffy came to my house And stole a piece of beef." As though he's running like he's stolen something.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, it's nice to see that people know Wales exists outside of Britain as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.5.66 (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's probably in for its absurdity. Though as an Englishman, Welshmen aren't obscure to me I guess they would be to most Americans. Stewie's comments are often showing knowledge of something others wouldn't understand. In this case even I don't understand. Cyta (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Obscure" is an understatement. The average American can't even find his own state on a map. "Run like a Welshman" is meaningless to me, an American. I suspect that there is a reference, but it eludes me. I think Cyta is right, that it's supposed to be inscrutable, an idiotic play on things like "throw like a girl". Now, "sing like a Welshman" would make some sense, mind. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the description of Stewie's dad given above, I guess he didn't run as fast and gracefully as this Welshman? ---Sluzzelin talk 11:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should ask User:I run like a Welshman.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Good luck, he hasn't edited here in almost three years. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 15:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The only other joke about Welshmen I know of in an American show was Futurama's Welshie character (a play on Scotty) in a Star Trek-themed episode. The only stereotype they made use of was that he talked funny, which is a shame considering how many good Welsh stereotypes there are. Recury (talk) 15:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it was probably intended to be obscure rather than to refer to some known stereotype. Stewie is well known not only for his matricidal and megalomaniacal tendencies but also for his affected English accent, so I think he was simply trying to "act English" by making a jibe at Welshmen. If anything, the stereotype played on is not that Welsh people run badly, but rather that English people make fun of Welsh people. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

OP here, thanks guys, while I think Angr may be right, I can't imagine the writers have a great understanding of the love/hate relationship between Wales and England. Maybe it is just nonsense, but I'm happy I'm not alone in understanding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.5.66 (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it also may be related to the show's mission to be as offensive as possible to as many people as possible. Since no one ever makes fun of Welsh people, Stewie is showing a bit of "equal opportunity slurring". Et In Arcadia Ego Sum (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"No one ever makes fun of Welsh people"! I take it you've never been to Bristol? DuncanHill (talk) 03:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You could post a question on the forum. Whoever wrote the joke is probably still around. Black Carrot (talk) 10:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I've not been to Bristol, but I take your point. Perhaps I should have said "Since no one in the American entertainment industry every makes fun of Welsh people. . ." Helene O'Troy - Et In Arcadia Ego Sum (talk) 18:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

As every good disciple of Seth Green and George Bernard Shaw knows, Stewie is based on the character Henry Higgins in the play Pygmalion. The Play eventually became the movie My Fair Lady. Many people believe that its theme has been reproduced into movies like Pretty Woman and Trading Places; in many cases our concept of “nobility” is based entirely on chance.

It is also correct to say that the point of the reference is not to make fun of people from Wales, but to point out that people from England make fun of people from Wales. I found this reference particularly humorous because its premise is entirely obscure.

From what I have read George Bernard Shaw was fascinated with the phonetics of language. He believed that we should adopt a different alphabet, and he actually devoted a large part of his will to this cause. His character, Henry Higgins (whom Stewie is based upon) is also interested in phonetics. He claims that he can listen to a person’s accent and then tell you precisely what neighborhood the person is from. Mr. Higgins is also interested in showing the absurdity of a class system. In the story they take a flower girl, and by changing only her accent and her clothes they enable her to “fit in” at the most elegant of parties…

In this reference instead of commenting on the way Peter talks, he comments on the way Peter runs. If they had not paid tribute to Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle in the episode “One if by Clam, Two if by Sea”, perhaps they may have had an episode where Stewie taught Peter how to run like a proper English gentleman? http://www.fredesser.com

Proper case for "post scriptum"

When abbreviating the Latin term post scriptum, should one use uppercase (P.S.), lowercase (p.s.), or mixed case (P.s.)?

Since the term itself is lowercase, logic would suggest the initialism should be lowercase too. In nearly every citation I have found, however, the initialism appears in uppercase.

Our communications director asserts that P.S. refers to "Passenger Steamer" (?!) and insists on our using lowercase in any communications.

Is there a preferred usage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.8 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If, in the context of your work, it is useful to make a distinction between P.S. = "Passenger Steamer" and p.s. = "post scriptum", then yes, you better write it lowercase. Language is there to make our lives easier, not for us to stick to rules! — Kpalion^(talk) 18:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The OED lemma ("A formula used to introduce something added to a letter below the signature: post scriptum, matter written after. Later also used at the end of other types of text.") is "P.S., n." Also P.P.S. etc. Every one of the OED's examples from 1616 to 1991 is P.S. (except for the 1991, which has picked up that fad of dispensing with the periods and has PS instead). Wareh (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a fad. The full stops are entirely redundant. 64.236.80.62 (talk) 12:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, our languages will have changed an awful lot from what they are when all the redundancies have been pruned away. Wareh (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. "Since the term itself is lowercase" is an absurd argument. In this world, we have the CV, the the IED, etc. Wareh (talk) 19:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Although many sources give postscriptum as two words, in Latin it is just a single word: the neuter form of the past participle postscriptum of the verb postscribo ("to write after/under").  --Lambiam 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Because post by itself can be the adverb "afterwards," it is not grammatically impossible to analyze the phrase as two words, scriptum post, something written afterwards. Wareh (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I understand the Oxford English Dictionary is considered fairly reliable when it comes to words and stuff. I'll go with their standard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.8 (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

December 11

Heraldry

Would it be proper to describe a dark red shield with a lot of three-lobed gold flowers on it as "Sanguine, semee of trefoils Or"? Black Carrot (talk) 09:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Trefoils seems wrong; that refers to three-leafed grass or clover. If you can't determine the flower, you could say semée of flowers or, three-petalled. Sometimes the fleur-de-lis is improperly called a trefoil; if the flowers are fleur-de-lis, you should use semée-de-lis or (see this image). A three-petalled flower said to be trillium is sported next to a fleur-de-lis in the Franco-Ontarian flag.  --Lambiam 12:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I got closer than I thought. I didn't think clover was a standard charge, so I just called it a flower. What's the usual tincture for clover? It seems like green would be more fitting, but apparently color-on-color violates some fundamental rule. Black Carrot (talk) 13:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a technical loophole -- "Gules, a trefoil Vert" would violate the tincture rule, but "Gules, a trefoil proper" might often be depicted in the same way, but is not as clear a violation... AnonMoos (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, is there a closer tincture to crimson than "sanguine"? Something a bit more purple? Black Carrot (talk) 14:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Heraldic tinctures are intended to be easily distinguishable from each other, so their number is necessarily limited. Among the standard tinctures, there's Gules (red) and Purpure (purple). Sanguine is technically a "stain" (not an ordinary heraldic color), and is not used all that frequently in heraldry (at least in British-based heraldry), and can have negative connotations in certain contexts (it's supposed to be the color of blood). AnonMoos (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

There's also Murrey, though that's a bit dark. Corvus cornix_talk 17:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Good to know. I'll stick to Gules. What would be the best way to describe several or many green clovers scattered over the field? The article says that semé describes the background, not the charge itself, so it seems like it'd be stretching things to call it proper as well. On the other hand, on the color side of things, would it be possible to use fimbriation to get around the rule? The most natural outline is black, which unfortunately isn't a metal, but white or gold could look right. Black Carrot (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are still interested in a field sprinkled with flowers, you can find here [2] Charlemagne's banner described as "Azure semé of fleurs-de-lis Or" and the France ancient arms. A semé or semy of fleur de lis can be described as fleury, but that can cause confusion as fleury is also used to describe a decoration of the ends of a cross (cross fleury or croix fleury). SaundersW (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It is "possible to use fimbriation to get around the rule," but fimbriation of any but the simplest charges does not get around the reason for the rule. —Tamfang (talk) 06:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Epithets / Epithet-names

John "the merciful"

Roy "Swifthand" Williams

Frida "Stoutheart"

Richard "the bald"

All those are Epithet-names, right? I'm just trying to figure out if i have understood the meaning of Epithet-names correctly, and if i can use Epithets behind names or in between first and last names like i did in these four examples i made up?

85.164.187.94 (talk) 15:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You got the idea precisely. See this: [3] and epithet. SaundersW (talk) 15:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

from Latin

Can you translate: Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt  ? I think it's something like: When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults. Some of the word endings seem incorrect, because the preposition cum takes the ablative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.33.2 (talk) 18:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

This is intended to be, not the preposition cum, but the conjunction cum (cum...tum correlative just like English "when...then"). Proscript would seem to be a typo for proscripti. Wareh (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Where can I get this on a bumper sticker for my chariot? -SandyJax (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Will you help my son and I/me solve the problem of the useage of the words "I/me"?

This was a homework assignment I couldn't help him with. I don't know the rules for using I and me in sentences; and I have a degree in Elementary Education!! Spencer and I went Shopping. (I know that's correct). But why isn't: My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her. also correct? (I know the correct word is me, because I'm looking at his homework assignment) I want to understand this once and for all so that I can teach him. I don't want to take up his teacher's time, plus I don't want to chance the fact that she didn't teach it correctly and put her on the spot, or should I? And admit I don't know? Please help me. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.222 (talk) 20:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In your second sentence "Spencer and I" is the object of the verb, thus you need the object form, "me". This will be obvious to you if you take away the Spencer part: "my sister wants I to go shopping with her"--would you say this? No. You would say "my sister wants me to go shopping with her".--Eriastrum (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely correct.

Not so much. "Spencer and me" is the subject of the infinitive "to go". --Milkbreath (talk) 22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

To help you remember, think of kids' excuses for fighting:

I did it to her before she could do it to me.

"I" perform the action, and the action is performed to or on "me".

And simply remove the rest of the list, no matter how long, to get at the essential.

Catherine the Great, Boudicea, Thomas Aquinas and I wanted to see if we could find suitable Christmas gifts to match the ones that the Vanderbilt family had given last year to Amelia Earhart, Amelia Bedelia, A.A. Milne, A.A. Gill and me.

BrainyBabe (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Children are (or used to be) taught that it's wrong to say things like 'Me and my friend went shopping', and by a process of false analogy people sometimes assume that they should use "my friend and I" in all cases. Another example of this hypercorrection is the expression 'between you and I'. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The point of this "Me and Roger" language rule is/was to efface or minimise the self, as in letting others pass through the door one holds open. It is a linguistic display of the important principle that children need to learn, that they do not (always) come first. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I remember being told that; but along with that lesson in etiquette, children also learn a wrong lesson in grammar. —Tamfang (talk) 05:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(mammoth edit conflict) Grammatical case#Cases in English pretty much says it. Subjective pronoun and Objective pronoun have some information. You have to know grammar to select the right case for your pronouns, and sometimes standard usage defies the grammar ("It's me", for example). In your case, "My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her", you can simply replace "Spencer and I/me" with "us/we" and trust your ear. Nobody would say "My sister wants we to go shopping with her." "Spencer and me" is equivalent to "us".

Rastafarians would indeed say "my sister want we to go" -- and this has influenced Jamaican English, and thus teenage British variants -- I won't say "slang" because I am not sure if the kids recognise the register shift. (Rastas also say "I and I", but that's another story.) BrainyBabe (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The sentence is devilishly difficult to parse. "Want" cannot take an indirect object. "Spencer and me to go" is the direct object of "want". "Spencer and me" is the subject of the infinitve "to go". Now, you want confusing? The subject of an infinitive takes the objective case! Challenge your son's teacher to parse that sentence.

All that said, there is a tendency nowadays in some places to just go with "I" in informal contexts whenever things get complicated. This mistake is starting to assume the appearance of a grammar shift in English even farther away than it has already gone from the idea of case in pronouns. For now, though, I think it's still good to stick to the right case when you can, in formal settings, at least. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, try using other pronouns, such as "he/him" or "she/her" to see how they work.

• He wants her to stay.
• *He wants she to stay.
• He wants me to stay.
• *He wants I to stay.

From the above, you can thus see that

• My sister wants Spencer and me to go shopping with her.

is correct. :)

But note also:

1. You are taller than him.
2. You are taller than he is.
3. You are taller than he.
4. You are taller than me.
5. You are taller than I am.
6. You are taller than I.

IMHO 3 and 6 are awful, but some people proscribe 1 and 4, saying that 3 and 6 should be used instead. --Kjoonlee 21:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Whereas, to my ear, 1 and 4 suggest ignorance of the basic rules of ellipsis. On the other hand, I have come to terms with "It's me" by replacing it with "'Tis I" which is so pretentious as to be a personal trademark now. Bielle (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pretending to be pretentious (is there a word for this - meta-pretentiousness, perhaps?) can be great fun, though. When I make a phone call, after the other person has answered "Hello" or whatever, I sometimes start with "It is I, Jack, who am calling". (That identifies me far better than the sound of my voice. Only this particular Jack would ever have the gall to utter such words.) I always pick my mark, though; mostly, I just say "Hi, it's Jack". -- JackofOz (talk) 23:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Oooh, I know the concept and I like the word! I shall adopt "meta-pretentiousness". It is sort of chuckling up one's own batwing sleeve. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The best way to remember it is the break it up.

Correct:

My sister wants Spencer and me to go shopping with her

My sister wants me to go shopping with her

Incorrect:

My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her

My sister wants I to go shopping with her

Correct:

Spencer and I like shopping

I like shopping

Incorrect:

Spencer and me like shopping

Me like shopping

Just take out the other people in the sentence and see whether I/me sounds right on its own. I hope that helps! :) --Candy-Panda (talk) 09:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"apotheosis"

what is the etymology of the word "apotheosis" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.155.229.171 (talk) 20:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's from Greek: apo = "change," theos = "god," and the "sis" suffix indicates a process of placing or setting, (e.g., synthesis). Thus, the term means, "To elevate to godhood." ◄Zahakiel► 21:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You have the right general idea, but some of your morpheme segmentation is a little dodgy. Apo- is a preposition/adverb which primarily means "away from", -the- is the stem of the word theos "god", -o- is a vowel used to form a denominal verb (here a long vowel spelled with Omega, as opposed to the o of theos, which is a short vowel spelled with Omicron), -s- is a nominalizer, -i- is the noun declension vowel, and the word-final -s indicates nominative singular case and number. AnonMoos (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

As AnonMoos says, the suffix of the verb θε-όω (theoō, "deify") turns the noun theos "god" into the factitive verb "to make X a god" (see Smyth, Greek Grammar, 866(3)), and when you in turn make a noun from such a verb, it ends in -ōsis. The apo- prefix has a good parallel in apolithoō "petrify," but it's hard to tie this to the best-established meaning "away from." I believe that most, if forced to answer for it, would say that apo- is here "intensive," which means that the transformation to god (or stone) is utter & complete. Wareh (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a little peculiar that αποθεος as an adjective means "far from God, godless", while αποθεοω as a verb (formed from exactly the same stems) means "to deify"... AnonMoos (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this shows the coincidence of two quite different uses of the apo- prefix. By the way, after so much discussion, I've just looked into Schwyzer's Griechische Grammatik, where, indeed, he says (II.445) that the combination of apo- with an -oō verb is merely intensive ("Verstärkung"). On the facing page Schwyzer includes apotheos under examples of apo- "without, -less." Wareh (talk) 16:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This may be helpful, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apotheosis .--Mike robert (talk) 06:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

December 12

A general comment and suggestion

As I have noticed in WP articles and entrees (by the way, does WP have an alphabetical list of entrees?) proper nouns, mostly persons and places, do not have phonetic representation (and this is a common negative feature in many encyclopedia); i.e. you cannot know how such names as Bagehot (Eng.), Chantilly (Fr.), Feuerbach (Ger.), Guerrazzi (It.) and Xerxes (Gr. from Per.) are pronounced by their native users. If anyone on the WP Language Reference Desk tries to provide this phonetic equivalent for entrees related to his/her mother tongue, it will be an achievement for both WP and its users. Please let me know what you think. --Omidinist (talk) 06:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

An alphabetical list of all pages on Wikipedia can be found at Special:Allpages.

Wikipedia uses the International Phonetic Alphabet for pronunciation guides. A couple of the articles you listed - Walter Bagehot and Xerxes I of Persia - do indeed have IPA pronunciations listed. It would be nice if all articles on foreign or obscure names or words had IPA pronunciation guides, but they unfortunately can only appear if someone adds them - if you're familiar with IPA and would like to add some that would certainly be appreciated. If there are any specific articles you wish to have an IPA guide added to, please list them here, and it's quite possible someone who knows IPA and the proper pronunciations will wander by and add them. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Many articles do contain phonetic representations. As to those which do not, I would say an obstacle that prevents people from adding phonetic representations is that, while the only objective way of representing the pronunciation is to use IPA, many people complain that they can't read IPA. Instead, they want "English" representations as found in a traveler's phrasebook. Here the problem comes - chances are that your "English" is different from mine. By the way, yes, there is an alphabetical list of entries: Wikipedia:Quick index. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 06:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have a list of entrees but it does have a small list of hors d'oeuvres. (Sorry! I couldn't resist.) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Oh, don't be sorry Adam. I am sorry for the wrong spelling. --Omidinist (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem I have with the IPA is that while I can read it (just about and with a crib), I cannot write it. DuncanHill (talk) 12:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility is adding audio files. I have started a sub-project within the UK Geography Wikiproject to provide sound files containing the standard British English (Received Pronunciation) pronunciation of as many British place names as possible. These are then linked in the first sentence of the relevant article, and can be listened to with one click. I recommend this approach, as it is relatively straightforward to produce the sound files and brings an immediacy and clarity that IPA, for all its benefits, lacks for the casual user. In fact, you could make any requests for British names here at the talk page if you wish. The main issue (not really a problem) is that the Ogg Vorbis file format must be used, rather than a more accessible format such as mp3. Hassocks5489 (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Excellent job you have done, Hassocks5489. I wish it could be done for each and every proper noun in WP. And then, thanks for all comments. Omidinist (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Letter head

Hi, I am German and I'd like to know how to formally address somebody in a letter head. My first try is "Dear Sir or Madam", so you can see which direction I am heading. Thanks for any helpful suggestion. -- 217.232.38.106 (talk) 09:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Dear Sir or Madam" works perfectly well in a formal letter which is sent to an unknown individual (probably in an organisation). The corresponding formula at the end is "Yours faithfully". SaundersW (talk) 09:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If you're writing to an organisation and don't even have a specific job title to address then you can use "Dear Sirs" but if you're addressing a letter to a specific job title like "Head of ..." then "Dear Sir or Madam" or "Dear Sir/Madam" is standard.86.143.33.38 (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm wiki sneakily logged me out. Anyway above comment was me. TheMathemagician (talk) 11:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this is usually called the salutation or greeting of a letter. Letterhead is another name for headed paper, that is, stationery with the name and address of the person or organisation already printed on it. Both articles contain references if you wish to learn more. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for your answers. -- 217.232.38.106 (talk) 14:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course, if you know the gender of the person you are addressing, then you should use either "Dear Sir" or "Dear Madam", as the person might be offended if you know their name but find their gender ambiguous. Also, "Yours faithfully" sounds very old-fashioned to my American ears, though it would be excused of a foreigner. (It may be normal in the United Kingdom.) The standard formula before the signature in the United States is "Sincerely". Marco polo (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The rule here (in the UK) is (or was. Maybe I am just old!) that with "Dear Sir" one uses "Yours faithully" and with "Dear Mr Polo" one uses "Yours sincerely". However formal letters are probably in decline here, and the rules may fall into disuse. SaundersW (talk) 23:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm in my twenties and I was taught at school (UK) that it's Yours Faithfully if you don't know their name and Yours Sincerely if you do. My office uses Kind Regards for all variations though, which is also acceptable. MorganaFiolett (talk) 16:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Dear Sir or Madam" is perfectly acceptable for a formal letter, although somewhat old-fashioned. "To Whom It May Concern" is probably more common. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking straight in my last comment. If you know the name of the person being addressed, then you wouldn't use "Dear Madam" or "Dear Sir", you'd use "Dear Ms. X" or "Dear Mr. X". I am not so young myself, but in the United States we would sign the letter in either case with just "Sincerely," followed by your signature. "To Whom It May Concern" is an acceptable way to begin a letter if you don't particularly care about the impression you make. To my ears, it has a cold, impersonal, offhand tone. If you are merely informing the recipient of the letter of something, then "To Whom It May Concern" would be okay. However, if the letter is asking for something, then "Dear Madam or Sir" is more engaging and probably more effective (if still formal). Marco polo (talk) 01:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

To agree with Marco, if you know the name of the person, then "Dear Mr X" (and in the UK, because the abbreviation ends with the last letter of the word abbreviated you don't need a full stop, period, or whatever you might call it!) Mrs X, Dr X or whatever and end with "Yours sincerely". If you have no idea who will read it, but it is a particular person such as the personnel director, or a notional person in charge of complaints, then "Dear Sir or Madam" is a good start, ending with "yours faithfully". If you are writing an open letter such as a reference which the bearer can show to many people, then "To whom it may concern" would be appropriate. In any case you can see that there are regional or national variations which will make a slight deviation from any "norm" or "rule" not very visible. SaundersW (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Another thing to consider is that you might want to write the salutation and sign-off by hand rather than typing them. I believe it is good practice, if you are typing or word processing a letter, to leave gaps at the beginning and end of the letter, where the "Dear Sir/Madam/Mr or Mrs Whoever" and "Yours faithfully/sincerely" would go, print off the letter and then write them in by hand. This adds a personal touch. You would also have your name printed at the bottom, below where your signature goes. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Japanese help

What does "私は永久にあなたとありたいと思う" mean? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 09:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"I wanna be with you, forever".--K.C. Tang (talk) 09:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! --Candy-Panda (talk) 09:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

But the Japanese sentence is grammatically wrong. It must be “私は永久にあなたと(一緒に)いたいと思う。”. More precisely, it is “I think I wanna be with you forever”. Oda Mari (talk) 14:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we need いる for human beings ... but could that be colloquial? I've no idea.--K.C. Tang (talk) 16:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

いる is always used for human beings, animals, whoever/whichever has his/her/its mind and will, including even ghosts! In other words, いる is used for something/body alive. So the (dead) body is ある, and we don't use いる for plants. We never use ある for human beings. Oda Mari (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Oops! I remember exceptions. I think, therefore I am is “我思う、ゆえに我あり” and it's an established translation. And “I'd rather be honest” can be both “わたしは正直でありたい” and “わたしは正直でいたい”. These ありたい are literally usage. Oda Mari (talk) 18:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense, as ある seemed to be used for both the animate and the inanimate in Classical Japanese. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is impossible to use “ある” in “I wanna be with you forever”. Unnatural and laughable. Oda Mari (talk) 05:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Gorge / Ravine / Rift / Canyon etc.

What is the right word to use when describing a very narrow "chasm/passage" that forms up in the mountains between higher points and peaks? I have tried to find out by searching the words but all words always just link to "valley", "Dale", "Vale" and such, which is more down in the flat-land, and much larger than what i am after so i am a bit confused, no longer knowing which word is right to use where exactly when there is so many words meaning almost the same...

Imagine a place high up in the mountains where a passage forms between two peaks or high-points, (or even between two mountain walls could be a possibility) and it is so narrow that one has actually built a bridge from side to side to cross. what is this passage below correctly called?

Though, it might not necessarily be THAT narrow, it might be a quite long bridge you know, considering its location.

gorge, ravine, rift, canyon, chasm etc.?

I find it hard to seperate these words and its meanings from one another...

85.164.187.94 (talk) 10:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If there is a way through, it is called a pass. --Lgriot (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

what if there is NOT a way through then? if its rocky etc. that one cant walk there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.187.94 (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't use george, canyon or ravine, since they are created by a stream or river. Chasm or rift seem to be asociated with tectonic activity. What you are describing was simply not elevated (by chance) as high as the two peaks next to it. So I am not sure there is a name in English for that. Anyone else got an idea? I can only think of "impactical pass" --Lgriot (talk) 11:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The low-lying region between two peaks is a saddle. [4] Hooray! My land navigation training is applicable to civilian uses. EvilCouch (talk) 11:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Chasm" is the generic term for such a thing (AHD: A deep, steep-sided opening in the earth's surface; an abyss or gorge.). A "gorge" is defined in some dictionaries as what you want, such as Webster's 1913. I can't say that the word "gorge" calls to mind a "mountain defile", but it does mean that. It's from "throat", you know, so its etymology implies a narrow passage more than it does an abyss. I'm going with "gorge". --Milkbreath (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Our article on topographic prominence calls such a point a col. —Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What gets exhumed?

As I understand the terms in [US] English: a grave is exhumed; buried remains are disinterred. Is this usage correct? NB: I'd initially posted this query on the Talk page of the article on Burial, but have gotten no response there. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

According to a couple of on-line dictionaries disinter means to remove remains from a grave. This definition is exactly the same as exhume. My understanding is that a grave is opened to exhume or disinter the body or remains therein. Richard Avery (talk) 11:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Richard Avery that there is no distinction between exhume and disinter. In both cases it is the body/remains which is the object of the verb. Graves cannot be exhumed.TheMathemagician (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Chambers Dictionary, 1983 ed., says "Exhume, verb transitive, to take out of the ground or place of burial: to disinter: to bring to light." DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And "Disinter, verb transitive, to take out of the earth, from a grave, or from obscurity." DuncanHill (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that exhume is specific to graves. Disinter can be applied to a grave, or simply somewhere where remains have been interred (buried). Thus exhume is a subset of disinter. Steewi (talk) 00:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As an alternative (if you're into obscure antonyms), 'exter' has been used in print and is thus officially a word. Algebraist 06:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Jaettu maa

What does the Finnish title of North and South exactly mean? --KnightMove (talk) 12:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Divided land. ›mysid (☎∆) 12:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be "Jättää Maa" instead? Saukkomies 17:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I just answered my own kuusamus. I was thinking the word would have been "Jättää", meaning "leave or move", but it takes the declined form of the word "Jakaa", which means "to divide". Oops! Thus "Jakaa" declines to "Jake-, and then the passive past participles case ending "-ttu" is added to the end of the word, making it translate into meaning "someone or something has divided...". When the "-ttu" is added to the end of the word "Jake-", the second syllable is closed at the end by the first "t" in "-ttu". This makes it so that the hard "k" in "Jake-" is dropped. So instead of the word turning out to be "Jakettu", the "k" is dropped because of the closed second syllable of "-ket-", so the word becomes "Jaettu" instead. The word "Maa" is pretty straightforward, since it simply means "land" or "world". Thus, when refering to the title of the movie "North and South" that is about the American Civil War, the Finnish translation of the title would literally be "the divided land" (implying that someone divided the land, not that the land divided itself), or something like that... I'm just writing all of this to give people an idea of how the fascinating Finnish language works! Saukkomies 17:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, question=kysymys, not kuusamus :-) ›mysid (☎∆) 21:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

...Jesus, are there any second-language Finnish speakers in the world?? ;) -Elmer Clark (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Jaettu maa" means "the divided land". End of story. There are second-language Finnish speakers, but all of them live in Finland. No one has ever learned Finnish as a foreign language for any other reason than needing to understand what the people in their new homeland talk about. From my experience, adult immigrants quickly grasp enough of the language to make themselves understood, but make very minor grammatical mistakes in every sentence. They also have a very distinct non-Finnish accent. Their children speak perfect Finnish. Some Finnish people immediately switch to English when realising they are speaking with an immigrant, but I make it a point never to do that unless the addressee clearly has difficulties understanding me. It is insulting to the immigrants to do it otherwise. I personally find it annoying when Swedes or Germans switch to English when I'm trying to talk to them in their native language. JIP | Talk 20:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"No one has ever learned Finnish as a foreign language for any other reason than needing to understand what the people in their new homeland talk about"... that's a little over-stated, JIP. J. R. R. Tolkien said he taught himself Finnish so that he could read Elias Lönnrot's Kalevala in the original. (He later partly based his Elvish language Quenya on it, so I guess there may well be Tolkien fans who have studied Finnish for that reason.) Xn4 03:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Count me as one second-language Finnish speaker who does not live in Finland. Okay, well I lived in Finland for a couple of years back in the late 1970s, but other than that I've lived in the Unites States. I currently live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula among many Finnish Americans (although I myself am not of Finnish ancestry), and Finnish is taught in some of the schools here as a second language, including Finlandia University in Hancock, Michigan, which is the town where I live. It is true that I make many mistakes when speaking Finnish (such as the very bad mistake of writing Kuusamus instead of Kysymys), and I undoubtedly have a wretched accent when I speak Finnish, but I find that if I get talking in it for a while I am able to remember things better and so it goes. One of the benefits of living where I do is that I occasionally get to practice my Finnish on some of the old-timer Finns who still speak it as their mother tongue. There's also a weekly (Sunday morning) local television show that has been on the air since March 27, 1962, and is done partly in Finnish called "Suomi Kutsuu", or "Finland Calling". It is hosted by Carl Pellonpaa, and originates from the station of WLUC-TV in the town of Negaunee, Michigan. Pellonpaa invites guests to his show, often visitors to the area from Finland, and speaks to them in Finnish. He also plays old timey Finnish polkas while showing home videos from his many visits to Finland. So I hope that this has settled the question of there not being anyone outside of Finland who is second language speakers of Finnish. It says in your Wiki profile, JIP, that you are an expert in Finnish Culture, so maybe as part of that it would be good to learn about the Finnish culture in America... Just a friendly suggestion. Saukkomies 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

December 13

Poetry Punctuation

Poet Robert Creeley often uses periods in between stanzas that are centered in the space between the stanzas. What are they called? What is the correct term for such line breaks? Regard, Mark Lee--74.138.145.133 (talk) 03:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A kind of interpunct, perhaps? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd call the symbols themselves bullets rather than periods. I think this corresponds to what Noah Lukeman calls a section break, "the most subjective of punctuation marks" (A Dash of Style: The Art and Mastery of Punctuation ISBN 9780393060874). There is a wide range of variation in the symbols or glyphs used to indicate such a breaks. A common form consists of three asterisks, sometimes called asterism, also when more or less collinear and with white space in-between rather than in a tight triangular arrangement, but I've also seen fleurons like ❧ and other dingbats used for the purpose.  --Lambiam 09:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking for a word meaning "devoid of authority."

I am looking for a word meaning "devoid of authority."

Rlemay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rlemay (talk • contribs) 08:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Powerless? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

chaotic, anarchic. Maybe lawless, unruly? The Evil Spartan (talk) 09:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you give an example sentence in which you'd like to use that word? If you mean an adjective to qualify a person who carries no authority, perhaps amateur, nonprofessional, dilettante, novice, insignificant, low-ranking, undistinguished. For nouns, you could say that someone is a nobody, a nonentity, a little guy.  --Lambiam 09:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Also powerless or toothless. In a specific context in US politics, a lame duck. --Anonymous, 19:47 UTC, December 13.

It could also possibly mean invalid (a decree devoid of authority, for example). Wareh (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

In that context, the decree is void or it is a nullity. --Anon, 19:47 UTC, December 13.

Uncharismatic Steewi (talk) 23:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Hollow? Toothless? Extralegal? Unauthorized? Non-authoritative? Clarityfiend (talk) 19:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Vocab Qeustion

I have a sentance in a reccomendation and a word seems to be misused. The sentence is below... any advice will help.

Her sense of self is one of her most endearing traits.

Shouldn't endearing be enduring? Thanks --Devol4 (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Depends on whether you want to say that it's lasted a long time, or that it makes other people like her... AnonMoos (talk) 14:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it would probably make sense as endearing than as enduring —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.202.92.247 (talk) 20:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a good and somehow sentimental sentence.There is nothing wrong with 'endearing',however ,this depends on what feelings the person wants to convey.In that case any one of the lexis from this sentence can be put on objection.--Mike robert (talk) 22:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, what does "any one of the lexis from this sentence can be put on objection" mean? --Anon, 22:59 UTC, December 13.

He means that if you don't assume that the sentence is supposed to mean what it seems to mean - that a female person possessed a sense of self which was among those of her traits that caused people to like her most - then there's no way to know whether any of the words are right, since the intended meaning of the sentence would then be unknown. (However, lexemes, or even better words, not lexis, should have been used.) -Elmer Clark (talk) 03:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Using multiple titles for names

I recently was charged with creating a flyer for MLK day at my office. I have seen many different sources refer to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." I was wondering if there is a general rule for limiting the number of titles used. Generally, the title of Mr. is dropped in lieu of Dr. if the person has attained that level of education, but titles from military service (Sgt., Lt., Col., etc.) and the Church as well seem to be a bit more confusing. I don't think that addressing someone as Rev. Col. Dr. Smith is correct, but I haven't been able to find a documented grammar rule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cholycross (talk • contribs) 21:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Rev. Dr" is not so uncommon, nor is "Professor Sir ...". "Professor Dr ..." is not used. Professor Lord Robert Winston is probably one of a kind. [5] Steve Redgrave's wife seems to be Dr Lady Ann Redgrave (which seems odd to me, as unless she has her own lady title she is Lady Redgrave, not Lady Ann Redgrave). There are a few "Dr Sirs" around, too.

There was Professor Lord David Cecil. As a humble baron (not the son of a duke or a marquess), Robert Winston is Professor Lord Winston, not Professor Lord Robert Winston. Xn4 03:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

True. The examples of "Dr Lady Ann Redgrave", and "Princess Diana" as well seem to show we are becoming less strict in the application of these rules. SaundersW (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Military ranks can be used with "sir" such as "Col Sir Donald Cameron of Lochiel" [6], and also Lord, eg Maj Gen Lord Michael Fitzalan Howard [7].

Here is Lt. Col. Dr. Robert Bowman [8] though many military folk with a doctorate seem to put that in brackets. I suspect that is why you don't see the Rev. Col Dr: if (Dr) is put into parentheses with a military title, it would then disappear altogether with a Rev. as well. SaundersW (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

We had the case of Florence Bjelke-Petersen, whose husband was knighted; and thus she was Lady B-P. Then she was elected to the Senate and became either Senator Florence B-P or Senator Lady B-P. Folks tried to accord her her full title Senator Lady Florence B-P, but that didn't work because "Lady Florence" implies she was the daughter of a peer, or something like that. You couldn't imagine the amount of bureaucratic wrangling that went on in Canberra about her proper form of address. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

In Germany you just string everything along: "Herr Professor Dr. Dr.-Ing. h.c.".[9] Something like what Anglo-Saxons do at the end: "Chilton, Charles, M.A., D.Sc., LL.D., F.L.S., C.M.Z.S., F.R.S.N.Z."[10]  --Lambiam 23:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Similar in Polish. Here's a real life example: Tadeusz Płoski is a military chaplain, a bishop holding a general's rank. He also holds a PhD in theology. He is therefore officially referred to in Polish as: Jego Ekscelencja ks. bp gen. bryg. dr Tadeusz Płoski (His Excellency Rev. Bishop Brigadier General Dr ...). — Kpalion^(talk) 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

December 14

Help creating page in Hebrew

Perhaps someone can please create a Hebrew page for Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner, משה שמואל גלאזנר and also replacing the aleph in גלאזנר with an ayin משה שמואל גלעזנר and deleting the aleph altogether משה שמואל גלזנר (these are three different spellings I've seen; any of the two can redirect to the third; the most recent publication of his book Dor Revi'i has the ayin in his name, so perhaps that is the best one to be the "homepage").

This page could just have a WikiProject Echo tag {{FAOL|English|en:Moshe Shmuel Glasner}}, and hopefully someone will come along and translate this page into Hebrew. At that point, someone can make sure the two pages are suitably cross-referenced to each other.

My Hebrew skills are still very rudimentary; therefore, when the "cannot find this page" page comes up in Hebrew, I don't know which link is the link to actually create a new page.

Thank you! Sevendust62 (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what the rules are like at Hebrew Wikipedia, but if I found an article here that consisted of nothing at all but a link to another language's featured article, I'd delete it. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Moshe Shmuel Glasner isn't even featured here, so the WikiProject Echo tag would be incorrect. (And it wouldn't work anyway, since there is no template at he:Template:FAOL. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Using `Ayin ע as a Mater lectionis is a feature of Yiddish, orthography, but not Hebrew orthography, and is considered a "Yiddishism" in Hebrew... AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Italics

In languages that don't read left to right, how are italics slanted? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, copying some Hebrew from the question above and putting italics tags around it produces this:

משה שמואל גלאזנר

So assuming the Wiki software is handling it correctly, the same direction as left-to-right scripts. -Elmer Clark (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The italic Arabic font on this page slants to the LEFT. But I wonder when italic Arabic is used.--K.C. Tang (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

What about Chinese? Clarityfiend (talk) 10:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

中文--K.C. Tang (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

日本語 Japanese. Oda Mari (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... none of these writing systems normally uses italics. Strictly speaking, what's shown above is automatically computer-generated oblique forms, not true italics (which involve more than just being slanty, they also involve slightly different letter shapes). As far as I know (and I asked about this once a while back at the reference desk), the only alphabets that use true italics are Latin and Cyrillic. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 10:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Considering italic script is generally based on cursive writing, it should be possible to create fonts that would imitate cursive Hebrew, for example. I don't know if this is actually practiced, though. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Eclampsia

Somebody told me that this word is derived from the Latin for "lightning bolt." Is that true? Fenton Bailey (talk) 11:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Nearly: it in fact comes from the Greek for "sudden flash[ing]", "lightning" or "lightning bolt". Last paragraph here makes reference, as does the first sentence here. Hassocks5489 (talk) 12:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Epi-something

I can't remember the word for the part of a name such as Richard the Lion-hearted. I think it begins with the prefix "epi." Epigraph... no. Epitaph... no. Epi- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.16.89.80 (talk) 13:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That's an epithet. Hassocks5489 (talk) 13:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Mrs. Malaprop was known for her "nice derangement of epitaphs"! AnonMoos (talk) 14:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ich fing Feuer

I've come across this, and the context doesn't really call for its literal meaning - "I caught on fire". Is there any idiomatic meaning to this? --Bearbear (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)