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January 10

Mistakes in the Qu'ran?

I've heard that there are mistakes in the Qu'ran. See the sections Mistakes in the Quran, number 18 in page 11, and Major Mistakes in the Quran, number 19 in page 12, in Islam - A Case Of Mistaken Identity in the Answers Book. But is that true?

Islam is just one of the many different religions in the world today. There are so many different religions in the world today. Many of them have so many believers, millions and millions of them around the world. Many of them have existed for such a long time, for hundreds and thousands of years throughout history in the past to today. Religions have had such a big impact on the world’s history, art, music, societies, culture, recreation, holidays, people, philosophy, politics, government, and countries.

So I don’t understand. Is that it? Is it that simple? Can religions be disproved, proven wrong and false, and proven not to be the one true religion just by finding, looking for, and searching for mistakes and errors in its holy religious book or books?Can religions really be proven false so simply, easily, and quickly? Bowei Huang (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly generally impossible to "disprove" religions in their own terms, based on their own source materials, to faithful believers.
Whether the Qur'an contains "mistakes" as such is a somewhat polemical question, but it's certainly true that Muhammad was illiterate in all languages other than Arabic (whether he was illiterate in Arabic itself is a much-disputed question), and that no written translations of the Christian or Jewish Bible were accessible to him. That's why he seems to have gotten all his early information about Judaism and Christianity purely orally from random Jews and Christians who happened to come through the Hejaz (and who were by no means always particularly knowledgeable or doctrinally-orthododox in their own religion). This means that Muhammad did not always have realiable information, and did not distinguish between the Bible itself and non-Biblical popular traditions. So there are such anomalies in the Qur'an as Haman from the book of Esther working with Pharoah from the book of Exodus to build what seems to be the Tower of Babel from the book of Genesis. Or an accusation that Jews worship Ezra as the son of God. Or giving late Jewish folktales (such as a midrash about the visit of Queen of Sheba to Solomon, which never had scriptural status in Judaism) scriptural status in the Qur'an. Or changing the name of Saul, king of Israel, to "Talut" in order to make it rhyme with "Jalut" (the Arabic version of the name of Goliath). Muhammad also seems to incorporate stories from the Alexander Romance (a very fanciful account of Alexander the Great's life, embroidered with apocryphal legends) into the Qur'an.
When some Jews and Christians look in the Qur'an, and discover (for example) that where the Bible describes Solomon's reign with multiple names of people and places, and detailed narratives of events, while the Qur'an largely reduces Solomon to a figure in a history-free folkloric-occultistic legend about conversing with ants, or that the Qur'an portrays a Jesus that never died on the cross and is reported as denying traditional mainstream Christian doctrines, then overall they're less than impressed... AnonMoos (talk) 00:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Though the proper one word answer would be "Depends.", it is better to write "No." Religions cannot be proven false so simply, because religions are not set in stone. We do not have thousands of years of theology for nothing. Usually, when errors (or more commonly, anachronisms) are found, the religion itself changes, and is not "proven false". A good article on the subject is Exegesis. One could, for example, interpret certain things liberally as a "product of its time". This is relatively popular when analysing the morals in a holy book from a secular point of view. More orthodox interpretations that rely on a holy book to be the true "word of god(s)" sometimes attribute statements that seem false or anachronous to figures of speech. Read some of the articles linked here for more information. User:Krator (t c) 01:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bowei asked something similar before. I would say simply that any website claiming to prove any religion false is a load of crap and should be ignored. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The main monotheism divine books are Torah ,Psalms of David ,Evangel and Koran. the same Abrahamic religions.But actually the God's religion is one :

and

The true Evangel and Torah are accepted by Koran, but they have been corrupted largely.

So they can't rule out anything ,actually not credible. Koran is the God's words book, and is protected by him from being corrupted, as he says:

So if we say it has mistakes, so we'll mean the God has mistakes (mark well)... . .Flakture (talk) 19:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How dare you ask like about our holy book of our religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 23:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia encourages asking about almost anything, as long as the question is in "good faith" as it were. (There is a bad pun in there somewhere; I just can't quite put my mouse on it.) Sometimes, of course, Wikipedia doesn't know the answer, but that does not, in and of itself, invalidate the question. Bielle (talk) 23:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But have any of you read the section in that article? If not, then can you please read it? Another website that claims that there are mistakes in the Qur'an is Wikiislam. Bowei Huang (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ٌ


Wikiislam is a insulting website for scurrility and a trying to defame Islam .in the websites "about" its claimed that its not a neutral point of view. It's main editors and administrators are Selfworm (in his page:I am an atheist ... who wants to free Muslims and the world from the burden that is Islam) and Whale (so active in slandering ...). they have awarded each other for these doings. an example of the pain of the world. Flakture (talk) 20:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Death watch beetle and nativity song

In the article about the death watch beetle, the author states: "The death watch beetle appears in a nativity song in which the innkeeper complains repeatedly that "there's death watch beetle in the roof."" I have done my best to comb through lots of sources and have plugged many many search terms into the google box, but have come up empty-handed. I would love the source for this Nativity song and its text and/or history if possible. I wonder if the author might comment on his/her source?

Betsyme (talk) 01:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Betsy[reply]

That appears to have been in the article since it was created by User:Goodgerster. No source is given; you might perhaps leave a request at his talk page for further information. - Nunh-huh 03:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imperialism

I have some questions about Imperialism.

What is Darwin's theory on natural selection?

Does Darwin's theory promote imperialism?

What is social Darwinism?

How does Darwin's theory influence the thought of Herbert Spencer?

How does Rudyard Kipling justify imperialism in his famous poem "The White Man's Burden"?

What arguments does Jules Ferry advance to justify imperialism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 02:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need to look these up and read them. Here are some links: natural selection, imperialism, social Darwinism, Herbert Spencer, Rudyard Kipling, The White Man's Burden, Jules Ferry. If anything is unclear, come back and ask. - Nunh-huh 03:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also suggest the page Darwinism - it seems like enough a nice starting point for the answers you seek. Random Nonsense (talk) 03:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I got the answer for Social Darwinism, but the article about natural selection didn't say how or what is Darwin's theory on natural selection, it didn't say how his theory promote imperialism and influence the thought of Herbert Spencer and the article about Jules Ferry, it didn't say about his arguments that advance to justify imperialism. Please, answer these questions. these articles doesn't help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 23:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The articles help, if you read them. For example, in Herbert Spencer we see: "He is best known for coining the term survival of the fittest, which he did in Principles of Biology (1864), after reading Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species. This term strongly suggests natural selection, yet as Spencer extended evolution into realms of sociology and ethics he made use of Lamarckism rather than natural selection.". In the article on Jules Ferry, we read "After the military defeat of France by Germany in 1870, Ferry formed the idea of acquiring a great colonial empire, principally for the sake of economic exploitation. In a speech before the Chamber of Deputies on July 28, 1883, he declared that "the superior races have a right because they have a duty: it is their duty to civilize the inferior races.". If you don't see how the concepts in our Social Darwinism article relate to imperialism, perhaps you'll do better by reading this essay. - Nunh-huh 04:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jules Ferry justified imperialism for 3 reasons :
  • economics : France needs for its developpement both access to natural ressources and markets for its products ("La politique colonial est fille de la politique industrielle");
  • civilisation and humanity : France has the duty to civilize backward peoples. It is the duty of the superior races to bring emancipation, by the mean of reason, to the inferior ones.
  • politics : France, lest it became a second rank power, had to take part in the contest for land and countries between European nations. ("rayonner sans agir, sans se mêler aux affaires du monde, en regardant comme un piège toute expansion vers l'Afrique et vers l'Orient, c'est abdiquer, c'est descendre du premier rang au troisième et au quatrième"). (source: Raoul Girardet, L'idée coloniale en France, Hachette, collection "Pluriel", p. 81.) Gedefr (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imperialism

What are the benefits and liabilities of Imperialism? Don't refer me to your articles about Imperialism because I have read it and it didn't say about the benefits and liabilities of Imperialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 23:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Benefit: you get to take their stuff. Liability: your descendants will feel guilty about it. --66.57.81.201 (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well the guy just said it all. Benefits are that your country will have some economic benefits and more land. A liability might be running the risk of the people rebelling, and all the trouble your country might go through to get the country in the first place.--Dlo2012 (talk) 01:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Some liabilities:
  • Dependency. The centre becomes dependant on periphery. On the "why is this a liability?" question with this I refer to "do your own homework" above.
  • Generally bad things of contact between strange parts of the world. This includes diseases people in other parts of the world have no resistance to (e.g. tropical diseases) and environmental hazards (the infamous rabbits in Australia),
  • The well-phrased "you get to take their stuff" above creates wealth, which can lead to decadence. Read The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
User:Krator (t c) 01:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since you told me about the liabilities, what about the benefits? What were the benefits of imperialism? Can you guys answer properly?

How do I lead a double life?

Can someone point me to a howto for leading a double life?

I'm thinking, for example, that I should find work that's only 3-4 hours but pretend to work 8 hours, in the remaining time living my double life.

Any other pointers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Q. Doe Jr. (talk • contribs) 14:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to start by working out why you want to lead a double life. What needs do you have that cannot be satisfied by a single life? Why would it not be better to make significant lifestyle changes in a single life instead? Leading a double life usually entails some element of deceit, whether of family, colleagues or government. Who would know what? What would be the consequences of being found out? (Note that we cannot answer legal questions.) Bovlb (talk) 16:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some people satisfy such an urge by becoming an actor, impersonator, or drag queen. It really all depends on what else (or who else) you want to be.--Shantavira|feed me 16:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You'll need loads of money, because having two houses, two cars, two phone/gas/water bills and two anniversary presents to buy, won't be cheap.--Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All of the above has been very helpful! However, you all are assuming too much. I just want to be socially integrated. As opposed to the full two thirds of MIT graduate students who have never had sex. Any concrete ideas? (Other than sshing into a server rather than keeping one in my home, obviously) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Q. Doe Jr. (talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the lack of free time really the problem? —Tamfang (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did I miss something? I’m unclear about exactly what you want to do. Be a student mostly, but have a double life as a Goth bicker dude so you can have more sex (unlike the MIT guys) or somthing like that? --S.dedalus (talk) 04:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
YES - exctly. you've hit the nail on the head. can you point me to any resources please or share any thoughts/advice/pointers you might have? Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Q. Doe Jr. (talk • contribs) 10:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Tardis hotclaws 08:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, obviously a drastically different look and style will help. Wearing leather jackets (that is, if you can pull it off) as oppose to jumpers and sandals will go along way. But if you don't look the part you'll stand out like a thousand candles at a gas station. If your seeking to have a cyber double life, it should be fairly easy. Choose radically different usernames (like "James84Student" and "razorblade"), and develop some quirks in your writing. Deliberately misspelling some words, for example, while spelling them correctly in your real life. This can be extended to the real world with your handwriting. So learn to write with both your left and right hands. You'll also want to adopt a different style of speech (more / less aggressive, faster / slower etc) and if your trying to pull off the college dropout look then words such as "dude" should become a staple of your speech. Think outside the box 16:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This would be more likely to work if you found employment where there is no direct supervision. In the US, there are occasional stories of utility, municipal, state or federal employees who are paid to do something like inspecting traffic lights or bridges, or supervising work crews at various locations who have "side businesses." One utility worker spent a lot of time on the phone managing his apartment while getting paid for utility work. While they are making their rounds on the government job, they also conduct personal business like doing home improvements, or selling things. There was a news story 5 or 10 years ago about a college professor who while a full-time professor at one college, taught part time at one or more other colleges. One full time tenured professor was also a full time farmer. There are some "full time" relatively unsupervised jobs which can be handled in 2 days a week, where only the productivity is judged, not the time behind the desk. Then there is the "mole" or spy, who might work in a job for government or industry while secretly working for the competition. There have been news stories of police officers who were also burglars, hauling away the loot in the trunk of the police car, or police officers who were simultaneously dope dealers or hitmen. The funniest cases are where the double dipper uses different names, and runs into an associate from one job while in the presence of an associate from the other job. Then there are the "double lives" which are lived by public figures, who on the one hand decry sin and immorality, but spend many hours in tawdry pursuits (until they get busted in some awkward situation). Edison (talk) 20:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You could have a problem is any of your sexual liaisons or whatever get serious. Undoubtedly a woman will be a bit surprised (to say the least) when they discover your other life. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NON PROFIT FOUNDATION

Hello, I would like to start a non profit foundation,How would I start? Thanks [email removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 15:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Depends. To which nation state do you owe fealty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skomorokh (talk • contribs) 18:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's some useful information at Wikipedia's article on Non-profit organization.Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 18:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Killing in the name of...

Which religion has killed more of its enemies in the name of their god? Has this ever been calculated? Could it be calculated? Should I be banned from Wikipedia for life for asking such a naive question? Thank you. Beekone (talk) 17:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you culd calculate such a thing. But I also think you shouldn't be banned :) . What do you mean by religion? Lutherans, Catholics, and Russian Orthodox, or broader, like Christians, Muslims, and Jews? Wrad (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
for the sake of even just ball parking the figures they would have to be put into broad terms. Nazis, KKK, the Crusades all being Christian, for example. You got to admit it would be interesting to see, right? Beekone (talk) 17:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I'd like to retract my Nazi example if it's shown that there was a stronger influence than religion in the persuasion of German citizens to commit atrocities. WWII buff I am not. Beekone (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...and by participating German citizens I mean the willing ones of course. Beekone (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalism. Followed closely by Communism. Just kidding. or am I? Jossy's Giant (talk) 17:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

that's a really interesting point. There's definitely something to be said for the worship of money. Beekone (talk) 17:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are similarities between both ideologies and religion, particularly in the case of communism. And each ideology has led to the deaths of more people than have been killed in all of history's religious wars put together. Oh and I forgot to mention the State, which like God is an abstract concept based on mythology, which is worshiped. With killers like these religions would be hard pressed to keep up. Jossy's Giant (talk) 17:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the sake of argument then, between the major contendors, Christianity, Islam and any Eastern religions (defined by praise and direct credit given to a non-existant being) what does the scoreboard look like? Beekone (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, start naming some wars... Wrad (talk) 18:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The big ones that come to mind are the Crusades (obviously the numbers would be staggering for both sides, but probably more for christians when accounting the pre-war slaughter of Jewish communities in Europe), WWII, Iraq and all related and unrelated terrorist/insurgent killings (not counting the US's since their numbers aren't attributed to whether or not they get into Heaven), and probably a lot of the Manifest Destiny type activities where Native Americans were killed in the name of cleansing the land of heathens. I'm sure there are a lot more, that's why I'm hoping someone's already done this whole thing. Beekone (talk) 18:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check Religious war and Religious violence, and Category:Religion and violence. Also see List of wars and disasters by death toll, picking out the wars that were mostly religious. The thing is many 'religious wars' are to some extent also to do with other things like money, power, resources, empire, nationalism, politics etc. Jossy's Giant (talk) 18:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Historical comparison of death tolls is generally awful because the world population increased a lot over the past millennia. User:Krator (t c) 20:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well first of all killings have happened for all kinds of differences of opinion.... I would say overall, the most killings have been in the name of a woman... just a thought... Overall as religions go, you gotta say Christianity and Islam are the two frontrunners, although things like the Holocaust cannot be blamed on being in the name of a religion... in fact it actually bodes another interesting question... which religion has had the most people killed for practising it? I'd say Christianity and Judaism, but there really are no real numbers for any of this. It is all a matter of opinion, which someone might disagree with me enough to kill me in the name of it someday. Croat Canuck If I were from Laos, The Laotian Croatian would fit 09:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know whether Judaism really fits. Most anti-semitic killings were and are more about ethnicity then religion. I would say Christianity and Islam since as you said, they are the top two frontrunners for the number of killings and they were often killing each other as well as a large number of other non-believers. And the people they killed sometimes faught back. Nil Einne (talk) 10:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This question comes about from an argument I was having with an acquaintance that was regurgitating some Ann Coulter concerning Obama's heritage. Because the man has ties to Islam in general this person feels he's inherently Al Quiada trying to infiltrate the Oval Office. While this may seem biased and ugly and borderline insane to some it's a completely valid argument to the Evangelical vter base trying to put his campaign down. I realize this isn't a forum of discussion on the issue, I just htought it would help clear this up if I mentioned my motive. Does a Christian have any reason to fear a Muslim and hold inherent biases against them? In my opinion christian atrocities far out weigh Muslim, but I don't have any kind of number to back that up. thanks again, everyone, for your participation in this inquiry. Beekone (talk) 15:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well no evangelical Christian is created equal... there are some who hold biases but there are some who aren't. Basically a Christian has no more reason to fear a Muslim than an atheist has reason to fear a Christian for the sole reason of being a Christian. The problem lies not with religion, but when bad people twist it to fit their own ideals and justify doing evil things.... or when ignorant people are preaching something they really don't understand. Croat Canuck If I were from Laos, The Laotian Croatian would fit 20:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to hold all Evangelicals to the same light at all, I hope I didn't come across that way. On the contrary, it's my acquaintance that wishes to hold all Muslims under an extremist light. I don't think it's unfair to say that that bias is common in America right now. What I'm asking is, in consideration to both religions violent past, does either side have a reason to be inherent;y afraid of the other? Obviously the answer is no, but that's not what I'm here to ask. My question is, does anybody have any ballpark numbers on the subject? If not I wouldn't expect you to reply. Thanks again. Beekone (talk) 21:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even if you could somehow come up with numbers, what could they possibly mean? It's not as though Hitler decided to cap the number of dead Jews at 6 million out of some vestige of Christian compassion. The Nazis killed that many Jews because that's roughly how many Jews there were in areas controlled by the Nazis. For serial killers and mass murderers a larger body count doesn't mean greater evil or greater danger, it means they were lucky enough or skillful enough to get away with it for longer. -- BenRG (talk) 10:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is nearly impossible to find an answer to this question. To do so, one has to make a distinction between religion as a professed reason (i kill you in the name of god) and religion as a causal reason (religion as a sociological explanation of war and killings) that is nearly imposible to make. For instance, Hitler killed jews, and he did not do so because of any religious creed, but for the "purity" of the race, and to save Europe from the "jew conspiracy" and so on. But, as a matter of fact, the modern antisemitism that underpinned Hitler policies is the heir of the traditional, christian, antisemitism. So, you can argue that christian beliefs are, somehow, accountable for the holocaust. Gedefr (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christian or Jewish name

As part of a genealogy search on family, the name Balthassa has tured up. He was from Germany, born about 1820. Would that name have been given to a Christian, a Jew or possible both.scutchie 17:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

About Panchatantra

Panchatantra was influenced on who?T3hStoner (talk) 19:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is unclear. There is quite a lot of information in our article on Panchatantra. Does that tell you what you wish to know?--Shantavira|feed me 08:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

actually i'm sorry that was pretty much my first time trying to use i'll look there if that doesnt help me well then thanks anyway =)T3hStoner (talk) 17:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bara bröst

The Swedish feminist movement "bara bröst" has been noticed in the Finnish press. Feminists in Sundvall want women to be able to go topless in public swimming pools. Their reasoning is, if men see enough women topless, they will accept them as commonplace and stop lusting after them so much. I can certainly understand that. There have come three arguments against this:

  • Protecting the children. This creates a chicken-and-egg problem. Children (boys?) can't see topless women until they've accepted them as commonplace. But they won't do so unless they've seen them often enough. Adult men have no such problem because they can see topless women anyway, just by going to the nearest strip club.
  • If men accept topless women as commonplace, they will no longer get excited by them. This creates a problem when a woman wants a man to get excited.
  • It is (I hear) more difficult for a woman to swim topless than when her breasts are bound against her body.

I can only answer the second question myself. As much as I like women's breasts, I am (lesserly) excited by their bared arms and legs too. If they have no problem showing them, why shouldn't this be extended to the breasts? What are your thoughts about this? JIP | Talk 20:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Children have better things to do than hang around pools all day and look at women (what? I don't know, but they don't do it now to see women in bikinis or thongs or whatever). As for swimming, I don't think a woman swimming topless is going to be going for any lap records or anything. Presumably, it would be a comfort issue, in which case she can wear a swimsuit if she's more comfortable that way. Recury (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, folks, this is not supposed to be a debate forum, remember? --Anon, 21:34 UTC, January 10.

. . .and this doesn’t appear to be a debate. The quest is apparently what validity if any these three arguments have; a standard political/moral question. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This may well be the stupidest (and funniest) idea I've ever heard. I was tempted to post "hahahahahahahahahahaha" and leave it at that. It just goes to show how little women understand the male sex drive. Why don't they also have sex with every man they see as often as possible, hoping that the men will get tired of it? The feminists are tired of sex, the men will never get tired of it. Or maybe they're looking at their own elephant-scrotum-like tits in the mirror and reason that they'll gross us out of our lust. What a hoot! --Milkbreath (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be strictly practical, women don't just wear bras for modesty and shapeliness, they ear them for the same reason guys cover up their lower parts—to protect a sensitive part of their body that tends to flop around a lot. Awkward to picture in your mind, but true. I don't know if you've ever read Clan of the Cave Bear, but it touches on this issue. A woman lives in this cave-man society but she's kind of a rebel and goes hunting, which the women aren't supposed to do in her society. She finds that her breasts are being ornery and notices that the men cover their parts with a loincloth to alleviate a similar problem. She copies them by creating the first bra. Of course this is all fictional, but you get the idea. Wrad (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Milkbreath, I disagree. There is some evidence (tapestries, illustrations) that breasts were not treated as particularly important sexual characteristics in medieval Europe. They were seen as a way to feed children and women didn’t even bother to cover them in some social circumstances. (This is in sharp contrast to the ankles which were often treated as highly arousing anatomy.) Friends of mine also tell me that in many Asian countries public partial or even complete nudity is not uncommon under some circumstances. Strangers, houseguests, etc. simply “don’t see it.” I believe Europe is moving in this direction. As far back as in the 50s directors like Bergman were making films such as Summer with Monika which depicted nudity frankly. The sexual appeal of secondary sexual characteristics has a lot to do with the circumstances. I’m sure that it would also be a huge step forward for the world if we stop imposing silly prudish customs on people. --S.dedalus (talk) 03:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As for the “boys might see breasts!” argument most boys have already seen a breast or two by the time they reach high school anyway. (If not live then on Wikipedia.) In fact for many boys the first breast they see is their mother’s. :) I’m sure if breasts and sexuality were treated a bit more openly in public it would help take some of the glamour out of pornography for tweens. --S.dedalus (talk) 03:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly. It would just move the focus south. Imagine how Swedish women will have to dress in public to discourage that....- Nunh-huh 03:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds to me like it’s the Swedish women (or at least feminists) who want to do this in the first place. The focus already is on “the south” for guys and we cope just fine. Perhaps I should counter that social focus by wearing a hoop skirt in public (or conversely go nude, but it’s kind of cold up here). :-) --S.dedalus (talk) 05:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think allowing women to go topless in public swimming pools is a good idea.

  • Short-term effects: Men get to see more topless women! Yay!
  • Long-term effects: Men get accustomed to topless women, so they stop being so obsessed about them, and women can choose to either cover or bare their breasts as they see fit. Everyone's happy. JIP | Talk 01:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And, because this is all about allowing women to go topless, not about forcing them, even if no one gains anything, no one loses either. Men will only benefit from seeing women topless, and as for women, before men have been accustomed to them, those who go topless are already brave enough not to mind, and those who don't, can go about as normal, and after, it's all the same. So I really can't see a reason not to go forward with this, given it's all voluntary by the women. JIP | Talk 21:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


January 11

Travel across the Mediterranean Sea in ancient and medieval times

How long did it take to get from one end of the Mediterranean Sea to the other in classical times? Roman times? Medieval times? I can't find anything on this at Mediterranean Sea or History of the Mediterranean region and was hoping someone here might have some insight. As for what I mean by "one end to the other", I suppose I mean both from southern Europe to northern Africa from north to south and from the Strait of Gibraltar to Palestine from west to east. Thanks! — Dulcem (talk) 02:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In classical (Roman) times, it could take weeks (or longer with adverse winds) to get from east to west or vice versa, and there was a stormy season during which much of the Mediterranean was essentially closed to long-distance shipping. You can read the account of St. Paul's journey to Rome in Acts for one account of a long voyage by sea... AnonMoos (talk) 04:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I saw a map of this not long ago, but can't find it now. There's a section in Fernand Braudel's book The Mediterranean (Vol. I) on sea travel times during the 1500s. He focuses on "exceptional" travel times, trying to estimate the minimum time required for various routes. He estimates the best speeds available at the time as being around 200 kilometers per day. Normal average time would vary widely, ranging from twice to over ten times the minimum time. He gives numerous examples of known voyages and how long they took, pointing out how "normal" travel time varied widely depending on season, ship, route, and of course, weather. After after all these caveats, he cautiously says that between 1500 and about 1700 average travel time for crossing the Mediterranean from north to south took about 1-2 weeks, "and that it was likely to be a matter of two or three months if one were sailing from east to west or vice versa." Pfly (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Great information! Thanks for the help! — Dulcem (talk) 04:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Ulysses took a generation to travel around the Med (his baby son had grown into a man by the time he got home) so clearly any long-distance travel was always regarded as a chancy thing. More recently in 1995, travel writer Paul Theroux circumnavigated the Med, mostly on land, and referred to ancient travel in his book Pillars of Hercules. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But Ulysses also took a 10-year stop in Troy before continuing the voyage, so the journey itself was ten years shorter than a generation. Corvus cornixtalk 22:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something to take into account is that Romans generally stuck to the coasts and didn't go far out on sea. This means longer routes, and therefore longer travelling times. User:Krator (t c) 13:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the 1500s, according to Braudel, ships mainly kept close to the coast. Multiple day trips out of sight of land were still unusual, except on certain well-established routes, like Rhodes to Alexandria, given good weather. Even there direct crossings were not exactly commonplace. Pfly (talk) 22:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See also the Michael of Rhodes website for a great source about ships, routes and navigation in the 1400's. [1]

Obtaining sculpture

I'd like to obtain a copy of a sculpture which I think is called "Circle of friends". It depicts a group of serene figures seated crosslegged and holding hands. If you know Stargate Atlantis, you can see an example of it on Dr Weir's desk. Can it be obtained through the Internet? LuckyThracian (Talk) 03:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Try this: http://www.mexicanbeautygiftshop.com/terra_cotta.htm --Petteroes (talk) 06:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Petteroes. LuckyThracian (Talk) 02:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fiction books about Pankration?

Are there any fiction books (novels) about Pankration (the ancient Greek olympic sport)? Or howabout any movies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.223.87 (talk) 06:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a 1997 novel Pankrationfor young adults. SaundersW (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Patrida seems to be another, maybe for adults. I found both of these by googling Pankration novel. SaundersW (talk) 19:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Voting twice in U.S. primaries

If a Utah resident is an independent, then will it be possible for him to vote in the Republican and Democratic primaries on Super Duper Tuesday?--71.107.214.106 (talk) 09:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • From what I can find, an independent can vote in either primary that day, but not both. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Americans are not party members as that is understood in some other countries. Often the indication is simply which ballot is voted at a primary. In states with open primaries, there is no need to declare a party preference (although usually you can only vote for one party's candidates), and therefore there are large numbers of "independents". In closed primaries, you must declare a party preference but you may not need any party membership before the registration deadline or need to stay with that party the next primary. My spouse is on both the Republican and Democratic mailing lists probably for this reason, due to switches between closed and open primaries in our state. Our article on Primary election seems to indicate that Utah is having a closed primary so independents can't vote at all. However there are errors on that page. Rmhermen (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have never understood the way that US parties choose their presidential candidates. I thought this was just because I am British. Having skimmed the primary election article, I now wonder how many Americans understand it. Not even Mr. Robinson and Mr. Goldberg could have designed a more convoluted process ! Gandalf61 (talk) 16:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That article doesn't even touch on caucuses like Iowa's Democratic one where you literally stand in a corner for your candidate - now there is oddness. Or irregularities like some of the delegates to the national convention aren't voted on at all - the superdelegates. Rmhermen (talk) 20:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Gandalf. These current US processes seem to be more-or-less the equivalent of what we'd call party preselection over here, except that rather than candidates being selected by internal party processes and announced to the public, as happens here, they're voted for by the public over there. They are far from the main event, but the way the papers present them, you'd almost think every single event was its own "main event". We've just been through a year-long federal election campaign here, of which only the last 6 weeks was the official campaign. Now we have to put up with another whole year of the US official electoral process, and being told breathlessly by our own media outlets, let alone the US ones, of what's happening at every step along the way, with front-page photos and huge 4-page spreads and editorial commentary for every single caucus or primary. It's almost as if what's happening in the US is of greatly more significance to us than what happens here. It's not insignificant, but come on, a little perspective wouldn't go astray. This is traditionally the non-news season, so they have to find something to qualify for the front pages, but I'm sick of it already, and the year's hardly begun. (Oops, I slipped into my first, and hopefully last, rant for 2008. Sorry.) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With no incumbent, the campaigning (or at least positioning) has been going on for a couple years here already. Many of us are quite tired of it. (And my state's primary won't even count.) Rmhermen (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Short articles on various topics

Hi there. I've just come back from my local book store, a little bit dissapointed, as I wasn't able to find just what I was looking for. I've turned to the internet now and I need a little help. For my language classes I need a handful of short articles (in the order of 300-1000 words) on important world topics that could be read by high-schoolers. Broad topics are best, such as, "Language Extinction", "Human Memory", "Stress relief", "Glow-in-the-dark mice", etc.

My problem is that although there are plenty of good articles available on topics like these, they're often extremely long and not appropriate for the high-school students I teach. I want to make sure they're getting properly referenced information (none of this 400 words for 'snow' poppycock), which rules out most of the English textbooks that I've seen, and I'm not really that great at writing interesting science / society articles, so I'm kind of at a loss for ideas.

Does anybody know of any good online resources? Thanks a bunch. 220.146.214.130 (talk) 14:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe try the Simple English Wikipedia? User:Krator (t c) 15:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not online, but you could go back to your book store and look for A Little Knowledge by Michael Macrone - a collection of short essays on influential concepts in the history of ideas. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This may be of limited use because you've probably already considered this one, but I would suggest going to your local library and photocopying some decent Britannica articles. Loads of them would be too long, but some would be around 1000 words, and on reasonable topics. Tricky one, though. Let us know if you find anything, because my own teaching would prob. benefit from the resource. 203.221.126.81 (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about periodical articles? You can search online at the magazine's website, or your library will have printed or online guides to periodical literature. In the U.S., for example, the articles in newsmagazines like Time and Newsweek are generally short, cover all kinds of topics, and are written at a level high school students can understand. Catrionak (talk) 15:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the UK, you might consider articles from Guardian science, (or any other section from that paper), or New Scientist. They are well written nd pretty well referenced. SaundersW (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At a slight tangent, the book The Practical Cogitator by Charles Curtis and Ferris Greenslet, while not "up to the minute", has an excellent range of pieces covering a wide range of ideas and writers. DuncanHill (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to bet that your local school library and/or public library has access to the high school version of Encyclopedia Britannica online. Either way it's free. You should contact them and see. 160.10.98.44 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't even considered Britannica, what with Wikipedia being so huge these days! I'll definitely check that out, as well as the other sources suggested. Thanks again! 210.138.109.72 (talk) 23:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NON PROFIT FOUNDATION IN GREAT BRITAIN

Just looking for some more guide lines to start a non profit foundation in the U.K. called "Helping Hand Foundation" Re doners,setting up for tax purposes and so on. Thanks. Fluter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you mean "England and Wales" rather than the unhelpfully vague UK, there is some info here, but for more in-depth/specific advice you'd need to contact a lawyer and/or accountant. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the information and web site Angus Mclellan,Yes I did mean England and Wales,although I would like the foundation to go worlwide in time.But this will be a start.Fluter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 15:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are we constantly lying?

Are woman lying when they use make-up, since they may look younger? Are men lying when they wear a coat, since they may look broader? 217.168.0.24 (talk) 19:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No one is lying, because no one knows the truth. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are we lying by wearing clothes because we're actually naked? I think lying is only lying if there is actually a threat that people will be deceived. Wrad (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is yes and no because lying is too much of a loose term and can be applied to say 'yes' and also 'no' as answers. In some ways we're lying. In other ways we're not lying. So maybe if you refine the question a bit more you can receive a better answer. It's like asking "What's the meaning of life". Does that mean "What is the meaning in my life" or "What is the purpose of my life" or "What is the purposes of life in general" or "What does the word 'life' mean" or "What significance does the existance of life in general have" or does it mean "What is the significance of Human Consciousness that separates us from animals". As you can see, a vague question has too many answers. Rfwoolf (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vague questions can be useful, though. A woman who wears makeup to look 10 years younger is not consider a liar (in the US). But a woman who wears glasses that look like they are prescriptive lenses but are actually not, with the intention of looking "smarter", might be. Somewhere in the middle are those who wear false-color contact lenses, which I personally don't mind but have often understood the implication that some people thought that was crossing some sort of uncomfortable line. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 04:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And there there are . . . Hair transplantation, Liposuction, Codpiece, Cosmetic surgery, Cosmetic dentistry, Artificial limbs, Dermabrasion, Wigs, Hair extensions, Waxing, Hair colouring, Merkin and Cosmetology, to name just a few ways in which we set out to deceive ourselves and others. “Will the real person stand up please?” Bielle (talk) 17:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The question seems to include a category mistake. Xn4 22:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Are humans not capable or lying? Or this is the nature of the beast?217.168.3.246 (talk) 01:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there someone with a subscription to Highbeam research? I want to know the name of the third hijacker of Ethiopian 961

I found this: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-64680823.html

It gives names of two of the hijackers, but the third only has his given name. I want to know his surname too.

So, does someone with a subscription to Highbeam work here? I would like to know the surname of the third hijacker of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We don't work here; we do this for fun.
First, note that the Highbeam article is just an archived Seattle Post-Intelligencer article, so any newspaper that carried the story would have the same information. I did a Google search on "ethopian", "hijackers", and "1996", and at the end of the first page of results it gave me a link to do a "news archive search". I did that and it gave me links to the Highbeam page and others at similar sites, presumably all sites requiring payment. I looked down the synopses to see other ones from the same date, and noticed that some of them used the phrase "two unemployed high school graduates and a nurse". I then did a Google phrase search on that phrase and found a hit on this web page at the Minnesota Daily, which includes three news articles, and the third one gives the missing name. I'll add it to the Wikipedia article.
--Anonymous, 06:23 UTC, January 12, 2008.

Ancient religious symbols

Where on earth or on Wikipedia can I find a book or images of anceint religious symbols. I am have searched here and found very little no drawings of symbols... what I've found was not very impressive and extremely limited.

Any ideas?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.154.80 (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Astarte was a female god and here is her image.
The ancient peoples had many gods. Many later rulers like Theodosius I banned Roman polytheism and other forms of polytheism. Twelve Olympians and other articles abound in religious symbols.--71.107.218.211 (talk) 21:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some are at site http://www.symbols.com/ -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Religious symbolism, commons:Religious symbol may be of help. --Neutralitytalk 22:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some questions

I was wondering: 1. What is the highest unclimbed mountain? 2. What mountain is found farthest from the center of the earth? I've heard of the answers, but I forgot and was trying to remember. Spencer 22:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might start with Highest unclimbed mountain.  :) Corvus cornixtalk 23:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And the mountain most often cited as having its peak farthest from the center of the earth is Chimborazo (volcano) in Ecuador. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

discharge under mental health act

I am trying to write a question about the extent to which the discharge provisions of the MHA 83 safeguard a patients right against arbitrary detention.

So far i have focused on article 5 (4) and the MH tribunals, with issues such as speed and also the controversy surrounding the medical member as a tribunal member because the member can be seen to be not impartial.

How can i bring in an assessment of article 5 (1) into this with consideration also of the substantive criteria for defintion?

Any help will be very much appreciated

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.1.128 (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Specifying the jurisdiction (country or state) you are asking about could help. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The UK 1983 MHA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.194.126 (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


January 12

Meaning of “Jailed”

This is both a Language question and a Humanities question. We hear about people being sentenced to jail, but their jail term is set to commence not immediately but some months down the track, e.g. Conrad Black [1], and Marion Jones [2].

Firstly, why don’t these sentences commence immediately, as they do for most other jail terms? Why do they need any more time to get their affairs in order, or whatever, when they’ve known for a long time this could be the outcome of the trial? What is their status pending their physical incarceration – are they under house arrest? Are they free to go about their daily lives and conduct their business? Do they have to report to the police on a regular basis? Do they have to surrender their passports to prevent them skipping the country?

Secondly, it seems to have changed the meaning of the verb "to jail". Once, it meant both the act of sentencing someone to a jail term and also causing them to be physically imprisoned. Now, it means the former but not necessarily the latter, or not yet anyway. A person skimming a paper and reading the headline "Conrad Black jailed" would be entitled to assume he’s now physically behind bars, wouldn’t they? Or are people cluey enough nowadays to know that jail terms don’t always commence immediately? In other words, "jailed" in a headline would formerly have been understood to mean "has been locked up", but now it seems to mean "either has been locked up or will be locked up, but you have to read further to know which is the case in this case". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason they are not immediately jailed may have to do with the appeal process. Why the meaning of the word changed I don't understand. Need for snappier headlines? Rmhermen (talk) 00:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To me at least, "jailed" means imprisoned, and "sentenced" means sentenced. The OED definitions also all seem to be synonyms of "imprisoned" or "confined", and not of "sentenced". If headline writers have been using "jailed" to mean "sentenced", they're being inaccurate. - Nunh-huh 03:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but they're all doing it. This seems to be the process of language change before our very eyes and ears. If enough people say the wrong thing, the wrong thing becomes the right thing. Why, only today I've heard radio reports, and seen and heard TV reports, about Marion Jones, and each time it was the unequivocal "Marion Jones has been jailed" - when in fact she's still out there in free-land until March. Apparently she can report to prison at a time of her choosing some time between now and then; it's nothing to do with any appeals process as far as I can tell. I just don't know whom to trust anymore! -- JackofOz (talk) 09:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You probably know this, but after a person is found guilty or pleads guilty, sentencing usually doesn't take place right away. The judge usually schedules a date for sentencing. And of course in some cases the guilty party may be 'released' pending sentencing (in cases for non-violent crimes like fraud etc) and are expected to appear back in court for sentencing. In such cases people use this opportunity to flee the country. Also, I *think* it's possible for the judge to hand down sentencing but only give a later date for the beginning of the sentence, such as "[next week] you will appear at place x to begin your sentence". Other reasons for this delay is parole issues, appeal issues, the defence attorney may want to be heard on sentencing, the prosecution may argue against the defence attorney, etc. There may be mitigating circumstances that would make it difficult to go straight into jail, etc. Rfwoolf (talk) 09:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Rfwoolf, but I didn't know that. Well, not the bit about sentences not beginning straight away. There's often a lengthy delay between conviction and sentencing, but once the sentence is handed down, that should be it. The stereotype one gets from movies and TV shows is the judge intoning "I hereby sentence you to XXX years in prison", and the convicted person being led away from the court room to spend their first night behind bars. I don't see why the existence of an appeal would automatically mean the imprisonment should be deferred. Appeals can go on for years, through various levels of court, and if the final appeal failed, and they'd never been to prison, they'd then have to start their term. Whereas, if they'd been behind bars during the appeals process, they'd have much less time to serve by the time the final appeal was heard - or maybe they'd even be out by now. Legally, they've been found guilty and been sentenced, so why shouldn't whatever punishment be applied forthwith. There may be cases where the commencement of the sentence is delayed pending appeals or whatever, but there are just as many cases where the appeal is conducted while the person is behind bars. It seems to be a quite recent development for jail sentences not to commence straight away, and the reasons, whatever they are, seem to have nothing to do with whether the conviction or the sentence is under appeal. I've only ever heard of it in celebrity cases, but maybe it happens in non-celebrity cases too. The perception remains, nevertheless, that celebrities get a better deal than other people. That aside, I honestly can't see what benefit flows to the legal system, or society, by (a) putting off the inevitable and (b) letting a convicted person decide the commencement date of their own prison term. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be forgetting that verdicts can be overturned, jail terms can be reduced etc. I presume if the judge feels there is a resonable chance this may happen, and the convict requests it, and there is no obvious danger or risk to keeping the person out of jail then there is no reason to deny the request (the same with any other bail request). If someone goes to jail when they shouldn't have or stays longer then they should have, there is NO WAY you can fix this. At best you can pay them compensation. However if you don't send a person to jail right away, you can send them later. It's not as if you're reducing the jail time. And as I said, I'm pretty sure this will usually happen only on request. Presuming the person doesn't feel their appeal has much chance, they'll most likely want to start their term as soon as possible rather then spend several months appealing in a cloud of doubt only to have to go to jail after that. Also, I don't know about in the U.S. but I'm pretty sure in most countries celebrity or not it doesn't matter (much). People only hear about it in the case of celebrities so they make a fuss but the law isn't that bad. The bigger problem, probably particularly in the U.S. is that celebrities or rather the rich have access to significantly better legal resources which makes a big difference. Also as the U.S. rarely allows much supression of the details involved in cases and it uses a jury system it's easily possible perhaps even likely that the jury is unduly influenced by the external coverage of a trial. The other issue perhaps is the difference in treatment of white collar crime but that's something for a seperate discussion Nil Einne (talk) 10:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One point: In a case heavily covered by the media in the U.S., the jury is usually sequestered, so it's doubtful they would be affected by media coverage of the trial. It's possible they could be affected by media coverage before the trial, which is why there is an intensive jury-selection process and perhaps even a change of venue to another county in the most extreme situations. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The web site www diaries of doing time until the ice men cometh .co.uk will also give any person an inside view of the prison system for profit in the united states of america.It is an un-biased factual point of view,and explains the whole system.fluter.

PAGE NEEDS YOUR HELP!!!

HELP THIS PAGE Cold chill!!!--74.138.83.10 (talk) 00:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are many pages like that that need help on Wikipedia. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that ANYBODY can edit a page. Consider improving the page yourself. Wikipedia:How to edit a page would be a good thing to read first. You could also consider getting a username here. --S.dedalus (talk) 02:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

how do i outsource on a small scale

I used to spend several hours a day copying and pasting responses to inquiries into my business. I've made a program that gets it down to just clicking a button to identify each e-mail and send the appropriate response and would like to take the final step of having someone else click the buttons instead of me. e.g. if I get an e-mail that says only "thank you", I click the 'thank you' button to identify that the e-mail should be answered with my 'you're welcome' form.

i'm thinking this identification could be done easily by anyone who speaks English, for example in India where call centers are frequently located (for example: Dell's). So, how do I go about purchasing a few minutes a day of someone's time to do this outsourcing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clickyclicks (talk • contribs) 08:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You do get business services (depending on where you are in the world) where you get assigned a number like 1800 123 456 which goes through to a call centre and your own shared receptionist is briefed on how to handle enquiries. The receptionist also works for a variety of other businesses that also each have their contact numbers. They usually are capable of sending emails for you based on the enquiries, for example if a customer calls in and asks for a brochure of more information on a product. However, some of these are based in western countries like the USA, UK or Australia where it would probably be more feasible to use a service in India or elsewhere (there are more nad more 'hubs' these days for this sort of thing, no longer just India). As a search strategy I would look for call centres and business services in places like India. Good luck, and I'm curious about your program. Rfwoolf (talk) 09:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may also be interested in our article on Crowdsourcing and the Amazon Mechanical Turk. Haukur (talk) 16:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

calculation of Easter 1808

I am probably very stupid but can anyone tell me please where to find the date of Easter in 1808. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.100.195.10 (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

April 17. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, 194.171.56.13 found that by going to the Wikipedia article for Easter, scrolling to the bottom to find the list of external links, then clicking on the one that said "A simple method for determining the date of Easter". That is why Wikipedia is such a good first port of call, because for the most part the most informative links have already been assessed, whereas a search engine is rather hit and miss.--Shantavira|feed me 13:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I googled 'calculate easter', picked the first link, and after I had thoroughly checked the data on that website using computus, I posted it here. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 13:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Happily Married Philosopher?

Could anyone provide the names of some philosophers who were happily married? It is difficult to find some who were married, none that I can find that were notably happy about it. Elokiah Tu'un (talk) 12:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There were none. The presence of women inhibits rational thought. Ix Dschubba 12:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Err, not all philosopers are men.--Shantavira|feed me 13:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the women on that list are not even philosophers. George Eliot? Hildegard of Bingen? Iris Murdoch? It is special pleading in extremis. What a joke. Malcolm Starkey (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


More like the presence of a philosopher inhibits all feelings of affection.
NOTE: this is no mere conjecture! You could smell Socrates coming before you could see him (he so rarely bathed) and boy did I cringe reading in Russell's autobiography how he realized the reason he hadn't had any closeness from his wife for many months was a bad case of halitosis that she could not bring herself to mention to him. Geez! (BTW, to the poster asking the question, the Bertrand Russell autobriography -- that part specifically -- may be an interesting reference for you to follow up on) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.122.5 (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is hard to judge a happy marriage from a regular one, at least for philosophers I don't know much about. But a quick look through some of the Lists of philosophers page provides some possibilities. Some people listed may not quite fit a strict definition of "philosopher". Some may be closer to scientists or artists, but they are listed as philosophers above, so.. As for marriage, these people seem to have had non-terrible marriages, but I don't know how happy. Some had divorces and maybe some family conflicts, but that is pretty common even among the "happily married" (what are the required qualities of a happy marriage anyway?). So who knows, but some ideas: Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung, Alfred Russel Wallace (maybe?), Kurt Gödel, John von Neumann (was the 2nd marriage happy?), Thomas Henry Huxley, Charles Darwin, Niels Bohr, Thomas Jefferson, Douglas Hofstadter, Freeman Dyson... Pfly (talk) 19:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Socrates said "By all means marry. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy. If not, you'll become a philosopher." Xn4 17:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Paul and Patricia Churchland seem happy enough. They also are both philosophers.--droptone (talk) 14:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Christine Overall [3], research chair at Queen's University and author of many works on ethics, is happily married. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
John Stuart Mill? Quorumangelorum (talk) 19:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tabula Gerlandi

Apparently there was this guy Gerlandus who worked out some sort of chronology, tabula Gerlandi or computatio Gerlandi, which was off by a few years from the conventional Anno Domini chronology. But I have difficulty finding solid information on this and Wikipedia comes up blank. Haukur (talk) 13:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page mentions him as from Alsace-Lorraine and coming after Bede: [4]. Rmhermen (talk) 15:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is he the same as the Gerlandus of Besançon discused here: [5] ? Rmhermen (talk) 15:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mostly I find notes to note confuse him with John Garland of England but little information on the "Garlandus, a canon of Besançon in the 12th century" (EB). He apparently wrote about music theory as well? Rmhermen (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are French and Italian wikipedia stubs about that Saint Gerland, fr:Gerland d'Agrigente and it:San Gerlando. They don't mention the calendar, though. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think he is our man, because this mentions "Table de Gerland de Besançon (pour les années de 1044 à 1548)". 194.171.56.13 (talk) 15:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are apparently two Gerlands of Besançon which appear in documents and are often confused. The one we're interested in wrote his treatise in 1081 and is cited as early as 1102, the other is mentioned c. 1132-48. The music theorist is probably Johannes de Garlandia?—eric 16:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gerland gives 1081 as the date of his twenty-seven chapters, Computus.—eric 15:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, you all! Looks like a redirect from Gerlandus to Gerland is reasonable. Apparently his tabula started in 1038 by his reckoning, 1045 by the AD system. It's used in some Old Norse documents, which is how I came upon it. Haukur (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it would be better to make Gerlandus a disambiguation page, that distinguishes between Gerland the mathematician and St. Gerland bishop of Agrigento, both from Besançon. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 16:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have articles for:

and disambiguation pages for:

And I still don't know who Gerland/Gerlandus is. Are some of these the same people?Rmhermen (talk) 22:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gerland and Garlandus Compotista are the same. All the disambiguation pages should redirect to the same place. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...Garlandus Compotista. His Dialectica, which may have been written before 1040, is the earliest complete medieval logic text still extant..." Wagner, David L. (1983) The Seven Liberal Arts in the Middle Ages. p. 135.
  • "...and the computus of John of Gerland, written in the eleventh century, were to be the most influential medieval treatises in this genre." Ibid. p. 232.
  • "...the Dialectica of Garland the Computist (i.e. author of a computus, or treatise on the calculation of almanacs), which may have been composed in Liège a little before 1040..." Kneale, Martha and Kneale, William. (1984) The Development of Logic. p. 199.
  • "Garlandus of Besançon is known for his Dialectica, a comprehensive textbook on logic which was probably written at the turn of the twelfth century." Marenbon, John. (1998) Medieval Philosophy. p. 152-3.
  • "...the Lotharingian scholar, Garlandus Composita (d. before 1086), refers in his Dialectica..." Webber, Teresa. (1992) Scribes and Scholars at Salisbury Cathedral, C. 1075-C. 1125. p. 94.
  • "Garlandus was associated with the schools at Liége, and in 1084 was magister scholarum at Besane" Ibid. fn. 53, p. 94.
  • "...Gerland in his Computus,...Author likewise of treatises on the abacus and on ecclesiastical matters, Gerland has usually been identified with a canon of Besançon who appears in documents of 1132-48,...It would seem, however, that this is a different person from the computist, who specifically gives the year of his treatise as 1081, whose 'floruit' is given as 1084 at Besançon by Albericus, and who is cited as early as 1102." Homer, Charles. (1924) Studies in the History of Mediaeval Science. p. 85.
  • "...Garlandus Compotista's Dialectica, a work from about 1080..." Radding, Charles M. and Newton, Francis. (2003) Theology, Rhetoric, and Politics in the Eucharistic Controversy, 1078-1079. fn. 34, p. 44.
The first (Wagner 1983) presents two authors, but "John of Gerland" and eleventh century looks like to be an error.—eric 01:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this is as messy as it gets :) Our sources are confused, our articles are confused and we are confused. Haukur (talk) 02:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gays in Bangladesh?

According to your article, you said that people who directed and produced the film "A Jihad for Love" interviewed people in Bangladesh. It is this true that Bangladesh, a poor Muslim nation, has people who are gay and lesbian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.53.196 (talk) 15:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be true to say that all countries have people of all sexualities. DuncanHill (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Our article LGBT rights in Bangladesh may be of interest. DuncanHill (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Homosexuality knows no national or religious boundaries. —Nricardo (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Except those of Iran, obviously. Algebraist 03:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may have a hard time finding a homosexual of either gender in Vatican City as well. Dismas|(talk) 04:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, acknowledged homosexuals, anyway. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Last time I checked, you could feel as homosexual as you liked in the Roman Catholic church -- you just couldn't act on those feelings. --Carnildo (talk) 22:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poems written by Alexander Scriabin

As a pianist, I have found that Aleander Scriabin's (Russian Composer, 1872-1915) works for the piano are simply exhilarating to play. I own a copy of almost every work that he has written. However, in many of the books, there are excerpts of textual poetry that he has written to describe the various musical pieces. I have looked online for more of these poems, but to no avail. I read online that he wrote a lot of poetry, but I can find nothing textual written by him, other than his musical poems. I would love to find out more about what he wrote mainly because he is my favorite composer. Any help would be greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.234.31.199 (talk) 23:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here’s some – [6]. Another reference is [7]. Apparently Faubion Bowers' book Scriabin: A Biography contains excerpts and translations of some his poetry – [8]. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 13

cult cure

If someone were to join a cult, say one that teaches a certain man is now god because he had killed the original god. Ok, so the family of the one in the cult wanted to get that person out, who would they hire? What is the name if someone in this profession? Thanks, schyler (talk) 03:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exit counsellor seems to be a reasonably popular term. You might want to see deprogramming as well. Algebraist 03:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deprogramming is the one. Thanks very much. schyler (talk) 04:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obesity/popular culture

Cross-posting with Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science

For some time I've been working on the obesity article. It contains a commonsense but entirely original research section on the place of obesity in popular culture. I cannot imagine there are no academic sources that deal with this question, but I have had great difficulty in finding the most suitable (and accessible) sources on this topic. Would anyone know of a source that deals with this reliably? JFW | T@lk 06:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For scholarly articles on obesity in popular culture see list at [9]. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Principles of Feminism

What's the listed principles and main points of view of feminism? Flakture (talk) 08:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does this help? Here [10] and the article Feminist theory. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually not, these contents are the expanded and ramified of some fundamental ideas that are wanted. 85.198.41.213 (talk) 21:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dolly Madison

Who is Dolly Madison? I'm studying American History, and I can't remember who Dolly Madison is. When I search her name in Wikipedia, I get a pastry brand name. Maybe add a page? Also, I don't know who had juristiction to do this, but if you're in contact with the formatter of the Humanities Ask a Question page, maybe include a sample message, so the explanation just on how to write a message is clear. Thanks! 76.104.194.195 (talk) 08:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are looking for Dolley Madison with an "e". Is there anything simpler than make a title and ask your question? The samples are in the list below the guidebox as actual people lay out their wishes. : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a specific link to Dolley Madison at the top of the Dolly Madison article.--Shantavira|feed me 10:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the name "Goldstein" a Jewish family name?

Can any user please let me know whether the name Goldstein is a Jewish family name, or are there also non-Jews with this name? Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert on Jewish names but yes, it's a Jewish surname (as in it was originally associated with Jewish people) with a rather 'interesting' heritage [11]. However there is probably no name nowadays and this definitely includes Goldstein which is held by people who are not associated with whoever the name originated from. In the case of Jewish people, since it's usually considered to descend matrilineally (see Who is a Jew?) but family names usually descend patrilineally there are going to be a lot of people who are neither considered ethnically Jewish by most definitions nor practice Judaism and definitely don't consider themselves Jewish; and have not been for several generations. They could be 95% black, native Americans, Asian and be atheists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus... In most cases I suspect someone with the surname Goldstein has some Jewish heritage as in at least one of their ancestors was Jewish but the One-drop rule is somewhat silly if forced (if someone self-identifies that's a different matter) Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wife taking husband's name

I have observed that in some countries wives take husband's name and in some not. What is the origin of this tradition? In what countries exactly does it takes place?217.168.3.246 (talk) 14:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With every culture having its own rules, this is a very complex subject. You might start by looking at our personal name article, from where there are links to naming conventions in various countries....--Shantavira|feed me 15:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know that many families in Tonga pass on the wife's/mother's name. Don't know why, though. Wrad (talk) 00:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Slightly off the subject but still relevant, some women in the U.S. will, upon marriage, start using their maiden name as their middle name and use their husband's last name as their own last name. Dismas|(talk) 11:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In quite a number of Western cultures, it is fairly common for a wife to take her husband's surname. She may or may not keep her maiden name in some way. This does not usually occur in Chinese or Korean cultures. Maiden name actually discuss this quite a bit Nil Einne (talk) 11:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to look at the article on Kinship terminology. There are some societies in which the rules governing a wife's surname are held very strictly, and other societies where they are not. There are also more than just two ways this has taken place. For instance, in the old Norse societies a person (this applied to both men and women) was given a first name, and then was given a surname based on the first name of the person's father. If it was a boy, the surname would end in -son or -sen. If it was a girl, the surname would end in -dottar. Examples: Eric Thorsen (Eric, who is the son of Thor), Sven Olafson (Sven, son of Olaf), Hilda Karlsdottar (Hilda, daughter of Karl), etc. After marriage, the person, either man or woman, would still be known by his or her surname before marriage - so that Hilda Karlsdottar would still have been known by that name after marrying Eric Thorsen. This practice has been almost totally abandoned in modern times, though. I just wanted to use it to show that there are more than two ways in which naming conventions have been created to deal with marriage. -- Saukkomies 4:23 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Military garb

At the time of Waterloo some cavalry wore a crescent shaped thing below their neck. What is it called and what is it for? - CarbonLifeForm (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're thinking of the gorget worn by officers. By the early nineteenth century, it was a small crescent-shaped badge of commissioned rank. In most cases, wearing it also showed that the officer was on duty. Xn4 17:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Living Gods

Is there a list of living gods on wikipedia? E.g. Aga Khan and Sultan of Brunei? MrsBucket (talk) 16:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's this - List of people who have been considered deities. Xn4 17:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Are you sure about your examples? The Sultan of Brunei is Muslim, no? And Aga Khan seems to be affiliated with a branch of Islam. Islam is a monotheistic religion, so no way either of those would be considered a god. —Nricardo (talk) 05:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A person believing in one religion may be himself considred a god in a different religion. Jesus was Jewish, but he is considered a son of God by Christians. Haile Selassie was Christian, but he is considred a God incarnate by Rastafarians. — Kpalion(talk) 22:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Non-fiction recommendations

I'm heading to the library tomorrow, and after having finally gotten round to reading my Christmas gifts (The World Without Us, Anyone Can Do It (autobiography by Duncan Bannatyne), and Salt: A World History (hmm, no article on that one yet)), I figured it might be worthwhile coming here to see if anyone can recommend any interesting non-fiction available through the Warwick Library Service (mostly because I'm too skint to buy any more books for a while.) I've no major qualms about subject matter, so long as the book doesn't presuppose knowledge on the topic and is a fairly good read. Any suggestions? GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 22:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Here are a few, new and old, that I have enjoyed and that appear to be in your library system, though I cannot vouch for any specific library:
Troublesome Words and A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson, plus any of his travel books, if you like a good laugh;
The Scottish Enlightenment: The Scots’ invention of the modern world by Arthur Herman;
Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman by Richard Feynman (though I am always a bit suspicious about the amount of fiction in an autobiography);
A Year in Provence by Peter Mayle;
A Brief History of Time, Black Holes and Baby Universes and The Universe in a Nutshell, by Stephen Hawking;
The Tao of Pooh and The Te of Piglet, by Benjamin Hoff;
The Bottlebrush Tree: A village in Andalusia, by Peter Seymour-Davies;
Thriving on Chaos: Handbook for a management revolution, by Thomas J. Peters. Bielle (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mutants : on the form, varieties and errors of the human body by Armand Marie Leroi. [12]
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins [13]
Touching the Void by Joe Simpson [14]
On Writing by Stephen King [15]
Rockpocket 01:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit sweeping, GeeJo. Any particular areas - Civil War history, hang-gliding, UFOs, pre-Raphaelite art? Xn4 01:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like unto Salt (a focused history), there is Cod: A Biography of the Fish That Changed the World and Rat: How the World's Most Notorious Rodent Clawed Its Way to the Top, and The Potato: How the Humble Spud Rescued the Western World , and The Big Oyster: History on the Half Shell and Spice: The History of a Temptation. Gotta love the titles. Rmhermen (talk) 01:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! The God Delusion is amazing. Try also,
Enjoy, --S.dedalus (talk) 02:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I recently enjoyed John McPhee's Uncommon Carriers, a recent non-fiction book where McPhee travels around the world looking at how stuff gets around (one chapter is about trains, another is about big rig trucks, another is about barges, etc.) and the people who make it happen. It's really pleasant and there's a lot of unexpected things, little tid-bits about one's everyday life that one never noticed. Unfortunately after typing all that out I see that it's not in your library system, so I suppose it's not all that valuable to you, but anyway it's worth taking a look at if you get a chance to, a pleasant book. Not like all those depressing-looking things that S.dedalus suggested. ;-) --24.147.69.31 (talk) 03:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think that's enough to keep me busy for a while. I was deliberately vague as I'd rather try picking from a cross-section, and it looks like it paid off, as some on the list I've already read, and others I haven't. Thanks guys :) GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 11:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite non-fiction book is The Making of the Atomic Bomb, by Richard Rhodes. --Sean 14:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tikkun

Although you have "Tikkun" in wikipedia, there is no link to it in the side bar that comes up when you search for "Torah". This made it a lot harder for me to find out what the tikkun was called. please add that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.88.220 (talk) 23:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pages that are presented are the result of a fully automated search function. There are several thousands of Wikipedia articles that prominently refer to the Torah. The page "Tikkun (book)" does appear for the search term "Torah", but only as number 156 in the list. There is no plausible way for us to make it appear earlier.
For future reference, the Wikipedia:Help desk is the best place for questions related to using Wikipedia.  --Lambiam 23:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 14

"Wars have begun that way"

In the movie The Hunt for Red October, the Soviet ambassador is warned that the situation with the Soviet and American fleets in close proximity (in a time when each country regards the other as a potential enemy) "is inherently dangerous -- wars have begun that way."

Have wars begun that way? (That is, by escalation from a local incident between military forces when neither side's government, although perhaps ready to fight a war, was interested in starting one.) Which ones?

--Anonymous, 23:30 UTC, January 13, 2008.

War of Jenkin's Ear?--Wetman (talk) 00:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Battle of Camlann. Wrad (talk) 00:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Seven Years War which began when Virginia Militia Lt. Col. George Washington and 40 troops had a run in with a Canadian militia ensign and his 35 troops, several thousand miles (and a couple months' journey) from their imperial authorities. Rmhermen (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For a more modern example, Gulf of Tonkin incident is something not dissimilar. --03:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.69.31 (talk)
The War of the Stray Dog must rank highly in these stakes. Algebraist 04:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A somewhat similar example where military exercises, rheoteric on both sides and various incidents and similar things created a very dangerous situation, albeit one which fortunately didn't actually lead to war Able Archer 83. To some extent the Cuban missile crisis is similar where the buildup of nuclear weapons too close for comfort on both sides (Soviet nukes in Cuba, US nukes in Turkey) nearly lead to war. The Six-Day War highlights a related case where one country effectively 'goads' the other country into war by putting troops on the frontline and otherwise making life difficult for the second country, even though the second country may know the first country was not going to invade it's a convient excuse to deal with a messy situation. Ultimately any situation where two sides who are incredibly antagonistic to each other and too close for comfort is a very risky situation since any mis-interpretation can lead to war. Nil Einne (talk) 11:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's also the case that such proximity decreases the amount of time to resolve a problem. In the Cold War this got taken to entirely new heights with the reduction of reaction times to a missile attack to mere minutes—if the US detected a Soviet launch, they'd only have minutes to respond with their own launch before it would be too late to retaliate. Rather perilous. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 17:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One could argue World War I began this way. User:Krator (t c) 12:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also the War of 1812. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The French and Indian War (1754-1755) between France and Great Britain began in that way, too. Indeed, none other than the person of George Washington himself was the instigator of this war, which began when Washington, leading a ragtag militia under orders from the colonial Virginian governor, got into a tussle in the Ohio wilderness with a French Canadian military expedition. The result of this minor skirmish out in the middle of nowhere, involving just a few dozen people was the full-on war between England and France. The results of this war was that England defeated France, seized Canada, and insured that the French would no longer seek to pursue a course of colonization in North America. -- Saukkomies 16:35 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Rmhermen mentioned that above as the Seven Years War :) Which raises the interesting point of what to call that war! Adam Bishop (talk) 17:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How Many Bills has Bush passed into law?

I'm wondering how many bills he's actually passed. A source would be nice with your answer. Rentastrawberry (talk) 01:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are referring to George W. Bush and Federal laws (as opposed to Texas laws). None. Bush never served in Congress. Congress votes on bills to make them laws. They send the law to the President. The President either chooses that the law will be enforced or he vetoes it. If he vetoes it, Congress has the option to override the President's choice and make it enforceable themselves. In the end, the President never, in any way, "passes a law", "votes on a law", or even remotely "makes a law". When people talk about "Bush's (fill in the blank) law", they mean "Congress' (fill in the blank) law that Bush wanted Congress to pass". -- kainaw™ 04:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure the original poster was asking for how many Acts have been passed under the Bush presidency, not a discursive essay on the meaning of "pass". See List of United States federal legislation for links to Acts of the US Congress by year. Matching the dates against the dates of the Bush presidency will give you the answer. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is very rare that I ever meet anyone who understands that the President does not make laws. When it comes to Bush, there are many people who believe he somehow traveled back in time to create laws in the 70's (such as FISA). Therefore, I find it a huge assumption to read "bills he's actually passed" as "bills passed by Congress while he was in office". -- kainaw™ 17:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The President can of course give executive orders which sometimes have the force of law and when they relate to national security are often classified so we have no way of knowing for sure how many he (or any other president) has given Nil Einne (talk) 10:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And the president's executive departments promulgate (that's the term they use) thousands of regulations every year. Both executive orders and regulations are laws just like any other law. What the president can't do is formally propose statutes, which is the type of law passed by Congress. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Beaver testacles as medicine?

In this template. At first, when I saw, "Beaver," I thought it was vandalism. But the article on Beaver mentions this. Can anybody confirm this and does anyone know if there's a proper term for beaver testacles as medicine? Zenwhat (talk) 06:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is correct. Ancient naturalists believed that the beaver's testicles contained castoreum. According to Animal Acts: Configuring the Human in Western History, p70 (ISBN 0415916100) tradition held that the beaver "knowing that men are pursuing him just to get the liqueur which is so useful in medicine, will tear off his testicles when he sees himself pursued by hunters and abandon them as a ransom." (Unfortunately for the hunters and the beaver, castoreum infact comes from the nearby castor gland, not the testicles). Rockpocket 06:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
see Pliny's Natural History 32.13. Also, the glands apparently contain some salicylic acid.—eric 06:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll stick with aspirin, all other things being equal. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Public library use in the UK

What percentage of adults in the United Kingdom regularly use a public library? Tamsen (talk) 12:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Museums, Libraries and Archives Council give the following statistics (from Introduction to the MLA pages 20-25)
    • 290.5 million recorded visits in 2005-2006
    • 48% of adults visit a library at least once per year – that’s over 19.1 million adults
62.136.167.175 (talk) 14:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Recipe website that gives recipes according to what ingredients you have?

I'm sure I've heard of websites where you enter what ingredients you have available, and it suggests recipes based on these. What I really want to do is enter the basic things that I normally buy, and get recipes based on these. I'm fed up of trawling through recipes only to be knocked back by calls for wine or some stupid herb or any of the millions of ingredients that I can't afford as a student. I also want to be able to save the list of ingredients so that I don't have to enter it in each time (it's not likely to change much or often). ----Seans Potato Business 15:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not buy some nice Australian Chiraz in a screw topped bottle which you can drink on days you don't cook with it? (And that reply is solely because it was Sean who asked!) SaundersW (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can try allrecipes.com's ingredients search page though you can only search using five ingredients at a time. Alternatively, you can try their advanced search which gives you more options. --Julia (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Recipezaar.com has that feature. You can also limit by other criteria like vegetarian or "simple".--droptone (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I have a missing ingredient, I adapt the recipie bu using something "similar" in it's place, or leave it out altogether. Astronaut (talk) 04:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the name

Can the origin of the name "FINEBERG", with this particular spelling be found? I am given to understand that it might be Russian or Ukranian. Ultraeagle (talk) 15:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll forward on the link from the Goldstein question above:[22]. A person who has that name could certainly be a citizen or national or Russia or Ukraine, but the name is in the German language and tends to be associated with the surnames assigned to Jews. It means "Fine Mountain," although it would have originally been spelled "Feinberg" (which is how a German would spell something that sounds like "Fineberg" in English). Googling the name, it looks like there's quite a few Finebergs now in Boston. --M@rēino 16:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is no doubt an anglicized version of the (Jewish) name "Feinberg". It is probably difficult to find one origin, because every time somebody named Feinberg immigrated to the USA they may have considered this change - or their immigration officers changed it for them. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 17:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This anglicized spelling is most common among Eastern European Jews who resettled in the United States or Canada (or perhaps in the United Kingdom), generally between about 1850 and 1920. The original name (Feinberg in the Latin alphabet, Фейнберг in Cyrillic) was common among Ashkenazi Jews, who lived before migration to an English-speaking country in a geographic belt extending from Germany across what are today the countries of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, parts of Romania, Moldova, western Ukraine, Belarus, western Russia, and Lithuania. Much of this territory lay in the part of the Russian Empire known as the Pale of Settlement. Within this region, there was a fair degree of mobility from place to place among the Jewish population in search of opportunities for livelihood or trade. So the surname Feinberg (which may have originated in more than one place) would probably have spread to many different parts of the Pale before people with this surname traveled to English-speaking countries and adopted this spelling. Marco polo (talk) 20:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

China Factories - Foriegn Ownership

Can Americans or Foreigners own Chinese Factories? --1textloud (talk) 17:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about Chinese factories, but I do know that it is common for foreign companies to run factories in China, although the middle management and below will all be likely Chinese. I know of a few people in China helping to run foreign owned factories. Steewi (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

India Real Estate - Foreign Ownership

Can people who don't have citizenship of India own real estate there? --1textloud (talk) 17:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Indian High Commission in London website - "Are there any restrictions on UK nationals operating a partnership with an indian national in India? Are there any restrictions on property ownership? Thank you for your help.
Dear Sir, Please refer to your email of 28/07/04. There are no restrictions on UK Nationals having a partnership with an Indian National in India. They can also own property with the permission of the Reserve Bank of India. For further information you can visit the RBI website which is as follows. www.rbi.org.in With regards, Commerce Section". Hope this helps, DuncanHill (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Buyouts by GM & Ford

Why are GM & Ford paying money for the employees to leave when they can be fired or dismissed? --1textloud (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They have to consider many factors...1) The staff-morale of those who will continue to work for you 2) To avoid potential bad publicity 3) There will doubtlessly be rules and regulations regarding the removal of staff who have not acted outside of the terms of their contracts 4) To ensure good relations with your previous-staff... rehiring of previous staff is quite common so you should try to leave on good terms as possible 5) Strong unions. Think about it...If Ford just fired 1,000 employees without giving them a penny, what would the media do? What would the general public backlash be if it were dragged out infront of the entire press? They would risk those staff who didn't get sacked going on strike, they would risk a boycotting of their products, they might see a downturn in sales etc. I suspect that cost-to-benefit wise it is better to give modest redundancies payments when removing noteable chunks of the workforce than it is to just get rid of them. Also a lot of times the amount of 'redundancies' that make it into the newspaper headlines ignore the amount that will be lost through natural attrition (think that's the word - basically people leaving the firm and the firm not re-hiring anybody so as to reduce the number of people forceable made redundant) ny156uk (talk) 18:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing wrong with the above answer, but the most important word in that answer is unions. GM & Ford have signed contracts with the unions guaranteeing their members severance pay. If GM or Ford tried to break these contracts, they would likely get sued and lose. --M@rēino 19:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why did Ford agree their employees to being members of UAW and allowing UAW to negotiate for them. The Battle of the Overpass says about 1 incident, but that did not conclude with Ford allowing UAW unless something major happened afterwards? --1textloud (talk) 20:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because historically a large amount of the potential 'talent pool' were union members and thus it was hard to not hire them? Companies are not all powerful (as some people consider them to be). They 'offer' jobs based on salary and terms/conditions of employment. If that salary/terms/conditions are not sufficient to ensure a steady supply of staff they have to reconsider their practices. Similarly the unionised-staff have to ensure that their own demands are not so much that they make it unappealing for the company to hire them in the first place. The 'power' can switch very quickly and both sides will almost always take advantage of their bargaining power. Be it scarcity of reliable/skilled workers driving up the price paid to each worker, or an over-abundance of reliable/skilled workers making it possible for the company to drive down wages. Unions are often seen as trying to 'limit' the workforce to drive up standards, but this can come at the expense of non-unionised members being 'frozen out' of the sector. Suffice to say it's all very political and as always in politics there is no definitively correct answer. ny156uk (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History of Buckingham Palace

Was Buckingham Palace reportedly built by the Duke of Buckingham ever known as "Buck House" or was it always called "Buckingham House"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.113.34 (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is colloquially known as "Buck House" - I doubt if it has ever formally been known as that tho'. DuncanHill (talk) 18:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
and did you know that the paint on the railing is called "Invisible Green", it is not black.--88.110.104.193 (talk) 21:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't everyone have tea with Betty and Phil at Buck House of a Sunday? Bielle (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By Betty I assume you mean Brenda? Algebraist 22:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I have ever seen "Private Eye" in Canada. Here, our reverent irreverence (or irreverent reverence) comes out as Betty, or Liz or even Lizzie. Bielle (talk) 00:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I didn't realise you were from one of the other Realms and Territories. Interesting... I, of course, could never countenance disrespect to ol' Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, as he is the Chancellor of my University. Algebraist 00:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Canada recognizing independent states

My question concerns Canada and who (whether Parliament, Prime Minister, or someone else) decides to accept a country as being independent? Would Parliament need to decide, or would the Prime Minister have that authority? Or do we have to go to the Governor General (Queen's representative)? Maybe something else? Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.132.70.59 (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that diplomatic recognition (the term for accepting a country's independence) requires legislation, so Parliament would not need to act. I think that existing legislation gives the government, led by the prime minister, the power to establish foreign relations, including diplomatic recognition, with other countries. In practice, the minister of foreign affairs would probably recommend recognition. I would think that diplomatic recognition (particularly of a country as controversial as Kosovo) would need the approval of the prime minister. Once recognition was approved, it would be the job of the minister of foreign affairs to announce diplomatic recognition and arrange for diplomatic representation. This is based on some deduction on my part, and hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Marco polo (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if it's the same in Canada, but in Australia the power to conduct foreign relations, including establishing diplomatic relations or signing treaties, are part of the royal prerogative, and thus exercised by the Governor-General in Council, i.e. in reality by the Prime Minister and executive government. See also the royal prerogative article and its discussion of foreign affairs.
Of course, the prime minister and the executive is ultimately answerable to parliament and rules while it enjoys the parliament's confidence, so ultimately the parliament does have some influence.
See, for example, the case of Bill Skate, Prime Minister of Papua New Guinea, who resigned in 1999 owing to parliamentary non-confidence, at least one of the reasons for which was his decision to recognise Taiwan instead of China as the government of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sultana disaster 1865

Where would one go to find the cemeteries where the bodies of the 1865 Sultana disaster are buried? Is there a searchable database of these burials and where a certain person might be found that was killed in the explosion? That part of the story seems to have been left out of the Sultana (steamboat) article and I am having trouble finding references to this.--Doug talk 19:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yummy plain white rice

Sometimes in Japanese anime etc, you see people going crazy over "delicious" plain white rice. What's that all about? Plain white rice is pretty bland and boring, and not all that nutritious... ----Seans Potato Business 22:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In East Asian countries (China, Japan, etc) "good" rice is prized for its unique "rice fragrance". I doubt many people eat plain rice by itself, but appreciating the smell and taste of the rice is certainly part of the culture. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've never been near east Asia, but I've certainly had white rice which I would rank as 'delicious' on its own. </OR> Algebraist 23:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Basmati! And while it's cooking, it fills the whole house with its nutty fragrance. Catrionak (talk) 23:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about you, but good plain white rice can be pretty dang good, not that dry crap you find at Chinese restaurants. bibliomaniac15 23:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes just with a good soy sauce – yum! (Some people get into the quality of rice, choosing a product without those white marks in the grain for instance.)Julia Rossi (talk) 23:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I love the steamed rice that comes from a Chinese restaurant. I love how it plops out of the little box still in cube shape. Most Westerners don't know how to make rice. They think all the rice kernels should be individual. That's dead rice. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fear Bibliomaniac15 patronizes the wrong Chinese restaurants. Algebraist 00:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never used to like white rice until I was roommates with an Asian guy. He really knew how to make it! Wrad (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was in an Indian grocery store yesterday, and they had an aisle of nothing but rice in 20+ lb. bags, all different kinds. --Sean 01:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Many restaurants use long-grained rice, which, if not freshly cooked (e.g. left out for too long), becomes "dry crap" as Bibliomaniac would put it. But it cuts both ways - long-grained rice is also less glutinous and thus has better presentation (depending on your view) when served. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Rice is nice, that's what they say [23]. Edison (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, thanks for the earworm! But it's OK, because I had forgotten they sang anything besides "Green Tambourine." Catrionak (talk) 17:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Earworm, you said? [24]. Edison (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, I am old enough to remember it without the help! But thanks (I think!).Catrionak (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 15

What East, West and North africans race belong to?

They said that the Negriod race is Indegenous to South and Central Africa, so what East, West and North africans race belongs to?!--arab 00:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who "they" are, but "indigenous" means "Negroids" come from southern and central Africa originally. So the "Black Africans" of the rest of Africa must have migrated from southern or central Africa. Many residents of North Africa would be considered "Caucasoids" in the traditional three- or four-part division of the world's peoples into "races," but anthropologists today recognize that division as pretty meaningless. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See Negroid. This is an old and discredited term. For more, see Race (classification of human beings). For an example of how migrations within Africa have overwhelmed earlier indigenous peoples, see Bantu expansion. In short, your question cannot be answered because the terms are not meaningful. Pfly (talk) 08:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Senate and democracy

In Hong Kong, people complain often and loudly that functional constituencies and appointments by the Chief Executive are undemocratic. Something about it will appear in the news at least once a week. Do they make similar complaints in Ireland about the Vocational Panels, university constituencies and nominations by the Taoiseach?

Do Irish people consider themselves to be living in a democracy? thanks F (talk) 02:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read Seanad Éireann#Calls for reform? Algebraist 02:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

American talk radio

Can you suggest an American talk radio over the internet that is not conservative?217.168.4.20 (talk) 06:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Air America Radio. Rockpocket 07:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
National Public Radio (broadcast on many public radio stations also available on the internet, see article) is quite balanced and has a lot of excellent programs, in my opinion. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greek history accounts

The early olympics in Greece had an event called Pankration (a fighting sport combining wrestling with boxing); I read that one of the most famous of pankration fighters was a guy named Dioxippus - my questions are: which historical accounts tell of him?, who were the historians who wrote of him?, where can I find these historical accounts of him (are they online somewhere or published in certain books)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.223.87 (talk) 08:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article Dioxippus, which indicates that the most famous story about him is to be found in Arrian, whose texts are available online. 131.111.8.97 (talk) 09:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Formalitate

What is it in Scotism? --Omidinist (talk) 13:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Removed. --Omidinist (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

where is cocaine legal like cigarettes in america?

In what country, if any, is cocaine legal in much the same way that cigarettes and alcohol are in America?

The cocaine article says


Is the "virtually" word unnecessary? I mean, there are, what, 194-196 countries in the world? Is cocaine legal in any of them?


thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.122.6 (talk) 14:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Cocaine#Current Prohibition where the different levels of prohibition are discussed. Astronaut (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And that subsection links to the article on legal status of cocaine which, unfortunately, does not include any references. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...and only covers 16 nations. Astronaut (talk) 15:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

list of objects that on or in the vicinity of your person make you sexy

I read that certain objects will make sexy just by virtue of your being in their presence (or maybe vice versa), or maybe having them on your person. Can someone find or furnish me with a list of such items, please? I'm male and 20-something in North America (though not at the moment). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.122.6 (talk) 14:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there is an object like that. It's called a Lamborgini. Beekone (talk) 15:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try getting some very unsexy friends. Next to them, you'll look better by comparison. Friday (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe personal grooming is the answer you are looking for? A shower, a shave, clean teeth, clean fingernails, clean clothes etc. usually work. Astronaut (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cynics might also point to Veblen goods and bling-bling. Personally, I think the contents and efficacy of any such list are extremely variable and individual and it depends on whom you wish to impress. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't listen to them - only heavy, gilded neck-chains with car logos do the charm, but the government is trying to keep it a secret ;) But seriously, I am not really certain it is a topic for the reference desk, unless you want to discuss the relativity of social norms of beauty (studied extensively in cultural anthropology). Perhaps we can sell this topic to science reference desk, as vaguely related to discussion on androstenone influence? ;) Just kidding. Pundit|utter 16:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't believe everything you read.--Shantavira|feed me 16:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In all seriousness, there is one object that, no matter who you are, no matter how unclean or ungroomed, will make you irresistable to women. That object, my friend, is a Lamborgini. I'm not kidding around here. Test the theory. What are you like 100 lbs overweight? Unibrow? Yellow, nicotine stained teeth? Perfect. Go get a Lamborgini and then tell me you don't get a woman within fifteen minutes. Beekone (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
why do you insist on dropping the "m" in your wikilink text? --LarryMac | Talk 18:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What are you even talking about, Larry? Beekone (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You still haven't spelled it right. Don't make me post diffs. And since I'm here yet again, does anybody know the difference between a porcupine and an expensive Italian sportscar? --LarryMac | Talk 18:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Damn... anyways, the point is, chicks dig Lamboghinis. Beekone (talk) 18:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not as much as they dig station wagons. Friday (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak-minded girls get with guys in Lamborghinis. Its the closest thing to a Jedi Mind Trick guys can have. Croat Canuck Talk 19:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize the questioner had specified what type of girl he wanted. Beekone (talk) 19:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, but he did say something that would make him sexy in general, not just to a particular kind, whereas I am of the opinion only the shallow girls would find him instantly sexy because of a lamborghini. I don't think there is any one object that can do the trick, except perhaps Axe body spray. ;) Croat Canuck Talk 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm such a moron. How could I forget Axe? It's like the layman's Lamborghini. Beekone (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hahahaha, yes, wheareas a Lambourghini could only get you 1, maybe 2 girls max, with Axe Body spray you can walk into any public building and every single good-looking girl in the place will come charging at you. Croat Canuck Talk 19:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And then you'll be lamenting that they won't all fit in the silly exotic car.. which brings us back to station wagons. Friday (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you all think he's about girls? He didn't write so, thus the only logical consequence is that he wants to find out about being sexy to all gender. Pundit|utter 21:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think it is a he?  --Lambiam 00:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"I'm male and 20-something..." 70.162.25.53 (talk) 01:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I just like 70.162.25.53 used my formidable powers of deduction. Male -> he. Indubitably. Pundit|utter 01:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's be fair, the complete quote is "I'm male and 20-something in North America (though not at the moment)." Too much ambiguity there to make a definitive call. Gay male, 23, travelling in Europe? Pre-op FTM transexual, 27, somewhere in Asia? Who can say? --LarryMac | Talk 21:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Doing the ultra-violent"

Hello wikipeople, I'm currently working on the ultraviolence article, after someone put a proposed deletion template there and a bunch of "citations needed". The article says that the term originates from Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange, and indeed the terms "ultra-violence" and "ultra-violent" are used several times throughout the novel. The problem is that I'm not sure if the term refers to extreme acts of violence as defined on the article, or acts of sexual violence exclusively. I simply don't understand what the narrator is saying most of the time! I'm asking for the aid of anyone who gets the novel's language a little bit better than me, so they can explain to me what exactly Mr. Burgess is referring to with the term 'ultra-violence'. (And if you could point me to serious papers or studies regarding the term, that'd be awesome too!) Thanks in advance! Kreachure (talk) 17:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read the novel, so this may not be a whole lot of help, but certainly in the film many of the droogs' acts of violence are non-sexual. This suggests that the term is not intended to refer exclusively to sexual violence. --Richardrj talk email 17:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It has been awhile since I read the book but I'm pretty sure it does not have an exclusively sexual-violence implication in the book. In some of the editions of the book there is a glossary in the back of the neologistic terms Burgess made up. I doubt this one will be in there, since it isn't one of the Polish/Russian slang words, but who knows. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 17:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Frankly, I don't think this topic is best served by a separate article. Virtually anything you say about ultraviolence could go in the A Clockwork Orange article, where it's much more likely to be read and improved. I'd recommend a merge. --M@rēino 19:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The word is a piece of Burgess word-play, being a play on "ultra-violet". As I also recall it is not restricted to sexual violence. SaundersW (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term is not suited to be mentioned only within the Clockwork orange article, precisely because Burgess may have meant something different from the popular use of the word nowadays. Kreachure (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • If you think that's the case, then you'll need to find some articles discussing "the popular use of the word nowadays". Right now, the article doesn't even claim that anyone uses it except for Burgess and critics. --M@rēino 22:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And just because the word might be used differently doesn't mean it deserves an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 23:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How can yo tell the difference between criticism and abuse?

Or is it a matter of taste?217.168.0.21 (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They overlap. There is a such thing as abusive criticism. I'd say criticism not intended to help might be called abusive, but that's just me. Wrad (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I invite a guest to a $$$$ restaurant and we get lousy service and food and shitty treatment, I may be inclined to venture criticism that is not "intended to help". But does that make it abusive? I might say something like that I have been severely disappointed by the lack of quality of the food and the utterly non-professional response to our complaints, not to help, but just to get that off my chest. But why should it be considered abusive as long as I make my opinion clear in a civilized way?  --Lambiam 00:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe instead of "intended to help", we could say "intended to be productive" or "constructive". I would guess that in the restaurant case, your goal would be to get a discount, or to demonstrate to your guest that you're displeased. Those are at least nominally positive aims. The personal abuse described by 212.51.122.6 below has no such constructive intention. jeffjon (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The number one way to tell the difference is to see if it mixes in even a single ad-hominem, such as "only an idiot could have made this." The minute you go from the thing being abused (since you're referring I take it to pretty harsh criticism) to abuse of the person who's doing it, it's not criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.122.6 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oreboat Workers

Does anyone know where I might find records/names of people who worked on the oreboats early in the 20th century? I'm interested in people who lived in Illinois and Michigan, and I live in Minnesota. Would I be able to find those records somewhere in-state, or would I have to go to another Great Lakes state? Are there any online?

Thank you, 138.192.86.254 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maybe I'm being too skeptical, but I doubt there's necessarily going to be records, at least complete and comprehensive records. Oreboating is blue-collar labor, and the companies that hired them might not have seen any reason to preserve their employee files for posterity. --M@rēino 22:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest trying to find a local historical society, also ask your local librarian (they will be able to advise you on finding and searching archives). An approach to a relevant trades union could also be fruitful. DuncanHill (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 16

how many people were killed by UN forces since WWII?

With reference if possible. I am also interested in how many people had been killed by diffrent individual governments, both from police, army or in prison. Mostly interested in EU member nation-states and US, Canada and Australia. But also all other nation-states. The stuff I already found on democide seems to be how many people were killed within a nation-state, but not exactly which nation-state was responsible. I know that it is kind of not possible to say this clearly, but for example I would include people died in Chile during Pinochet's regime as killed by Chile and US and so on. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.184.30.132 (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean by "UN forces," e.g. military forces under command of the United Nations on United Nations expeditions, or do you mean, "by UN member states." Because those are very different things. Also I'm not sure how clear your methodology is — including the US for all deaths perpetuated by the Chilean government under Pinochet makes some moral sense but at what point are you separating the responsibility from the actual people who do it and those who indirectly contribute? You can always extend causality back further and further in such situations; do the states who crafted the Treaty of Versailles get credit for the deaths at the hands of the Nazis? Does that make any statistical sense, even if it makes some vague moral/causal sense? --24.147.69.31 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello

I'm having trouble with the piano and mostly trying to play with my fingers. I can barely read sheet music and mange to play both clefs. I also become instantly confused when the music requires you to play chords like this, maybe high C-E-G in eighth notes then to high C-D-F-A, or D-F-G-Bb. My question is how could you possibly play those chords on the piano with proper fingering, having proper fingering, and how to identify notes on the treble clef and bass clef. --Writer Cartoonist (talk) 03:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Piano fingering depends quite a bit on context, but assuming no special circumstances I would finger the chords you mention like this:
(Where 1=thumb) 

C-E-G             C-D-F-A             D-F-G-Bb
1-3-5             1-2-3-5             1-2-3-5
Learning a new clef is difficult. There is no quick cure. I would do sight singing practice to work on it. Learn Solfege and sing the notes as you play; also buy an anthology of easy pieces and sight read a new one every day. You basically just need to work with the notes on the staff until your brain reads them as easily as written words. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It'll vary from player to player as well. I think that I would tend to play both the C-D-F-A chord with fingers 1-2-4-5, rather than the 1-2-3-5 that s.dedalus prefers. Either way, you'll have to play the keys at different places than you usually would for a plain major C chord; probably sliding some fingers further up the keys and/or curling the fingers under a little more. It also might be affected by what's played immediately before or after those chords. jeffjon (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Metaphorical winter

Is the word “winter” ever used in the Bible to express isolation, doubt or grief? --S.dedalus (talk) 04:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You be the judge. There is a searchable Bible at BibleGateway. I looked for "winter" in the KJV, and there was a hit in the Song of Solomon that looked a bit unliteral. --Milkbreath (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I saw that one but I think it’s talking about love as like coming out of a winter. Thanks for the great link though. I’ll see what else that brings up. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of Blank

I've been trying to compile a list of US states that were once their own countries. So far, I have Hawaii, Texas, and Vermont. Anybody know of any others? Black Carrot (talk) 05:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's the California Republic, if you count that. Algebraist 06:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some claim the Provisional Government of Oregon counts. Pfly (talk) 08:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a possibility that the State of Deseret might be considered by some to have been a semi-autonomous and semi-sovereign nation for a while. If not in fact, then in practice it was at any rate... -- Saukkomies 10:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MOU

Is there a difference between an MOU document and a terms of reference? Is there set criteria that must be in the document? Have tried googling for a template with no success.

I am a community development officer with a regional council. Officers from 3 other neighbouring Councils will be working together on a regional music project for young people. Which document is best?

Thank you Janine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.31.252.55 (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this is merely for coordination purposes (that is, if it's a glorified memo) then it probably doesn't matter. If, however, there are legal concerns as to what sort of document is used and what criteria it contains, then consult a lawyer. Per the disclaimer at the top of this page, Wikipedia does not provide legal advice. — Lomn 14:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Similar sites to Amazon Mechanical Turk

I have been experimenting a little with Amazon Mechanical Turk and have earned a couple of dollars for 2 hours of my time. The system is fine: uncomplicated and stressless. However, the payment is terrible. That's why I would like to receive suggestions about similar sites for telecommuting that offer real payment.217.168.0.21 (talk) 05:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I could be wrong but it sounds like classic market forces. If there are people willing to work for pennies (say, in poorer parts of the world, where pennies go further), then there's no way anybody is going to want to pay you more for the same work. You're better off getting in touch with a temp agency or something like that. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that Mechanical Turk is so badly paid because the task are also so simple. But I am interested in the system (uncomplicated and stressfree, like stated above) applied to other kind of jobs.217.168.0.21 (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's something called Rent-a-Coder for hiring programmers—I assume the tasks are more complex than those at the Mechanical Turk. However, my understanding is that the pay rates there are still abysmal by U.S. standards. -- Coneslayer (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

humanity

What does a person be called who do not believe in different religion but believe in a god and humanity. 122.168.16.86 (talk) 06:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deism? --S.dedalus (talk) 07:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your use of "different" makes no sense. Different than what? -- kainaw™ 13:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Probably "different" from any specific, organized religion. I think theism is probably the best and most general term. Deism might work, depending upon the questioner's specific interest, but Deism sets up a kind of deus otiosus situation in which God exists, in some form, but doesn't directly intervene in human affairs - so miracles and most supernatural events are denied. ◄Zahakiel► 14:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agnostic. Beekone (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agnostics in general do not believe in a god. Agnostic theists do, however. Algebraist 16:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Taking your question literally, I believe the answer is Pantheism. Arguably, pantheists do not believe in different religion, but rather believe that all religions are the same. Pantheists also believe in "god and humanity", because the two are one and the same. --M@rēino 16:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Basic JC-1 H2 Economics help needed

I just started taking JC-1 H2 Economics and some concepts confuse me. Could a friendly Wikipedian with Economics background help clarify my doubts?

According to my notes and lecturers, there are four types of resources: land, labour, capital (physical capital and human capital) and entrepreneurship. Isn't entrepreneurship a type of human capital? Isn't money a resource (and what type of resource is it)?

A free good is defined as a good that does not incur an opportunity cost because supply is plentiful relative to demand. Air is an example. So if demand for a free good increases greatly (e.g. due to air pollution), will the free good become an economic good?

Lastly, are issues affecting a single industry considered microeconomics or macroeconomics? I know microeconomics is about individual (people/business) decisions and macroeconomics is about the effects of these decisions on the economy as a whole. But my lecturer gave "Taiwan's local airlines hit hard by bullet train" as an example of microeconomics.

Thanks a lot!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.16 (talk) 04:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Such classifications tend to be somewhat arbitrary and up to an author's whims. For example, petroleum and various other minerals may be important resources, but are not really "land" and even less any of the other given types. And where do fish fit? Aren't human capital and physical capital two different kinds of resources? And so on. I wouldn't worry too much if what you are being taught in Economics doesn't make sense; that comes with the territory. Just remain critical, and for the rest, tell them on exams what they want to hear.  --Lambiam 08:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Entrepreneurship is a term "older" than human capital. It helped completing the simple Neoclassical model of firms, since these are more than a bunch of capital and employees. Human capital was coined, if I'm correct, by Growth Theory, as simple physical capital accumulation proved insufficient to explain growth differences between countries. Why your teacher would think of separating entrepreneurship from other human capital may be related to the importance of the capitalist as the person who takes risks and combines the other production factors. But, as Lambian said above, don't worry too much about such subtleties
Money, or better, access to credit markets, could indeed be considered a factor. Monetary restrictions show from time to time in the analysis, but the basic models you are surely studying assume that you could contract (hire) as much capital as you need (in that sense money could be thought of as a part of the factor capital, as was the case of Adam Smith's analysis, for instance).
The OP is right in the analysis of free goods. A good is free as long as you could have as much as you want for free (or in more formal terms, a good is free if its demanded quantity is less than available supply for positive prices). If demand rises, or supply falls up to the point there's no more free "trade" of the good, then it will cease to be free. Good bye free air, welcome air bottlers.
Finally, the distinction between Micro and Macroeconomic topics is subtle. The whole economy could be considered in macro or microeconomic terms (see for instance, general equilibrium theory). So, your teacher may want to speak of the interrelations between sectors of the economy in Microeconomic terms (e. g. price adjustments after a competitor enters the market), or how a sector affects the economy in Macroeconomic terms (how much it contributes to GDP, how its price rises have affected the inflation rate, etc.). Pallida  Mors 21:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was the Roman conquest of Britain a major strategic error - in retrospect of course?

Given that Rome invaded in 43 AD (notwithstanding that trading links had been established during the preceding 100 years), and further given that it took another 100 years before the Antonine Wall was built (to defend southern Britain from the marauding and rebellious Scots tribes), and further given the wet and cold weather, the rebellious and surly nature of the Brits and Welsh and Scots, the warlike tribal systems of local "government" then prevalent in Britain, and the uncertainty of what material wealth might be available to the Roman conquerors, and lastly given that the Roman Empire's resources were stretched too far by their presence in Britain causing weaknesses in their Germanic, Gallic and Meditteranean Basin satellite states, eventually causing the Romans to withdraw from Britain; can it now be safely assumed that the benefit of invading Britain and staying as long as they did was vastly over-rated and in fact, cost Rome dearly in the long term with no easily identifiable "profit" accruing to them? Or was it worth all the fuss notwithstanding all the foregoing contra-indications?? Thanks, but please don't answer "yes" or "no".81.145.240.38 (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe well it was too good an opportunity to pass up. 86.21.74.40 (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the basis of Catullus 29 I would say that perhaps the perspective you take is too broad. In Catullus' view, long term strategy didn't enter into it, Caesar just needed some money to pay his boyfriend - "Was it not this, one and only general, that took you to the farthest island of the West? So that fucked dick of yours, should consume two or three hundred thousand dinarii?" 194.171.56.13 (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It might of course be argued that Catullus' view of the matter was a bit too narrow instead of too broad. In retrospect, it's hard to tell - maybe the Romans might have prospered more by seeking to profit from trade with their neighbours and spending their resources on a really strong border defense instead of overstretching the empire with one conquest after the other, but such was not the Roman way of thinking, and the outcome of that scenario is doubtful at best. As regards the conquest of Britain, two things to keep in mind are that 1) Britain was a known exporter of tin (which was needed for making bronze), so it's not entirely true to say there was an uncertainty of what riches would lay ahead, and 2) the Celtic people on the Isles were cooperating with their relatives on the continent and Caesar was worried about a rebellion in Gaul being fed and supported from Britain. Whether the conquest was worth it in the end is hard to tell - we'd need lots of data on the actual cost of the occupation force and on the profits from trade and extortion - which, I'm afraid, is rather lacking in ancient sources (at least in the level of detail needed to take a serious stab at answering the question) -- Ferkelparade π 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "good economy" defined by economists?

I don't know much about economics, that's why I ask this. The US pres. elections are also coming up, and the issue is being talked about more. For regular people, or those not familiar with economics, "good economy" I suspect means when things are affordable to them(cheaper food, lower gas prices, etc.) But what's a good national economy through an economist's perspective? What separates a bad economy from a good one?

And I have another question related to this. How does the stock market play in the economy being good or bad? I only know the basic idea of what a stock is: ownership of a company shared by people. I get that, but I don't get how that relates to the economy being in a good or bad state. I hear in the news about when stocks go down, the economy is going bad; but why?

I'd appreciate any answer, and please if you answer try to keep jargon at minimum! Thanks. 199.76.154.127 (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/michaelofrhodes/
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