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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dat789 (talk | contribs) at 01:32, 4 February 2008 (→Eating duck is considered bad luck. Sometimes - it all depends on your beliefs). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Eating duck is considered bad luck. Sometimes - it all depends on your beliefs

Someone has edited the Bad Luck section of this article. It originally had "The eating of duck is thought to cause heavy misfortune, as ducks are (at least traditionally) eaten in times of funerals or deaths in the family" I have been celebrating Chinese New Years since I was born and believe that this should be put in rather than cut out. I think that eating duck is good luck and I always eat what the symbol is for that year; example, I ate a pig this year.

→I would like to maintain the opinion of putting away baseless and contradictory statements such as what act/belief is good luck or bad luck. The battle in deciding what to put down cannot end unless one takes an unbiased viewpoint, perhaps by mentioning the existence of the contrary belief. A lot of things written on the article page are mostly drawn from the many years of experiences celebrating the event, so lets keep it as real and informative as it can. Dat789 01:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(Cool) Good luck vs. Bad luck

The article states that doing various things (eg. washing hair, buying shoes etc. is bad luck howevernnnn my trips to China proved differently. I think they need to be referenced otherwise we could add anything to that list. Tipexcom2 11:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has hacked into the page and vandalized it. In the middle of the bad luck section, it contains a profane statement. When I try to edit it, it doesn't appear on the edit screen, so I can't change it. If someone has good Wikipedia skills, please remove the statement, or ask someone else to do so. It's disrespectful. I don't know the Wikipedia guidelines, but it obviously violates a number of them. Thanks! Cliffordrosky 17:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply] 


                 I love bad luck becauses it is cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                 Write below on yoour coments:

"Japanese and Chinese/Lunar New Year"

The article states:

Chinese New Year is considered to be a major holiday for the Chinese as well as ethnic groups who were strongly influenced by Chinese culture. This includes Japanese, Koreans, Miao (Chinese Hmong), Mongolians, Vietnamese, Tibetans, the Nepalese and the Bhutanese (see Losar).

However, Japanese celebrate the New Year on January 1, as in Western countries. According to the Wikipedia article Japanese_New_Year this began in 1873, which would mean it occurred shortly after the Meiji Restoration (明治維新) during the Meiji Era (明治時代) - a period that marks the modernization of Japan. (Not that this last piece of trivia is of great importance to my point, but it seemed worth mentioning).

Kaizendenki 12:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really relevant to the entry, but Chinese also celebrate western New Year. Japan moved traditional celebrations to a new date (moved it from the lunar calender to the Gregorian calender), while China kept the traditional date, but added new (non-traditional) celebrations in on the second date. Mostly, it's just partying and setting off fireworks, which happens at any kind of celebration in China anyway.

perfectblue 13:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It may be true that fireworks (where its legal) happen all the time, but no other holiday or celebration, including the Gregorian new year, can compare with the Chinese New Year as a pan-Chinese holiday. And for most people, its not "mostly" partying. tess 17:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When I said "mostly partying" I meant the Gregorian new year. Believe it or not, it is just mostly partying. While Japan celebrates western new year with traditional Japanese celebrations like crossover noodles etc, China doesn't do anything much more traditional that let of fireworks (which is a stable of almost any celebration in China) all of the tradition is saved the lunar festival.
perfectblue 18:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I missread your statement. tess 19:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the Chinese didn't name the holiday "Lunar" New Year. We went along with it to distinguish it from the Gregorian new year. tess 17:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's often not referred to as being new year at all. Just "Spring Festival".
perfectblue 18:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Chinese New Year" vs. "Lunar New Year"

Why don't we really change round the order of the redirects - this page should be called Lunar New Year because that is more general (Korean and Vietnamese communities in the SF bay area are on record as being upset because everyone calls it Chinese New Year, squeezing out their festivities). Anyone see any reason why I shouldn't switch them round? seglea 22:21, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

  • Do the Korean New Year and Vietnamese New Year always fall on precisely the same date as the Chinese New Year?
  • Please keep in mind that the Chinese calendar is lunisolar, not purely lunar. (Please see lunisolar calendar and lunar calendar.) Also, what about the Jewish and Islamic calendars? (The Jewish is lunisolare; the Islamic is lunar.)

The chinese calendar uses the location of Beijing as a reference point (or more correctly, it used Beijing until 1928 and since then 128° East. The traditional japanese calendar used the location of Tokio (but was otherwise identical with the chinese one), and AFAIK the vietnamese one is also the same with only another different reference longitude. I have no idea if it has a different one for the Koreans. But it will have a difference of one day if the new moon occurs around midnight local time at the reference latitudes of the calendars.

And yes, the chinese calendar is lunisolar, but it isn't the only lunisolar calendar, there are more additionally to the above variants of the chinese one. Thus a title Lunisolar New Year would be wrong as well. andy 23:21, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Although a late response, the modern meridian of the Chinese calendar is 120°, not 128° (probably just a typo). The meridian for the traditional Japanese calendar, at least before 1873, was that of Kyoto. I suspect that the 'modern' traditional Japanese calendar uses 135°, the meridian of Japanese Standard Time (UTC+9h), not the meridian of Tokyo. I suspect the same for Vietnam (UTC+8h), but don't know. Because Korea was a vassal state of China before it was invaded by Japan in 1905, it accepted the Chinese calendar without making any changes. Indeed, the Korean court accepted the Chinese calendar from the Chinese delegate with elaborate ceremony. I have no idea what its modern incarnation may be. — Joe Kress 18:31, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)
Well, if you change it to Lunar New Year, it would still be the same as Chinese New Year... It just, maybe, maybe piss off us china peoples. Your choice. tsyoshi
Please don't use lunar new year. Where I come from "lunar new year" is equivalent to "islamic new year". If Wiki is intended to be international then it would cause confusion. Perhaps Chinese/Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese New Year is more appropriate, albeit longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.224.164 (talk • contribs)

This article is really about how the Chinese celebrate their new year. As such, the name is fine. There is already a separate article for the Japanese new year. There really should be articles on how Koreans and Vienamese people celebrate their new year, no matter when in the calendar they fall on. There should also be an article for the Islamic New Year. tess 19:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey what do you know, there's already an article for the Vietnamese new Year: Tết. tess 19:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Things to do

1) Add the ten heavenly characters which are conjugated with the 12 animal zodiacs.

2) Add entry for 8th day of new year...birthday of the jade emperor

Icons and Ornaments

Chinese New Year (CNY) or Chinese Spring Festivals are celebrated with many icons, decorative ornaments, symbols and other significant images that are peculiar only during the festive season. I propose a dedicated subtopic explaining what each is and what they mean. e.g. Fish -- often pictures of fishes are found and they symbolise to represent the Chinese idioms of 年年有餘 (nián nián yǒu yú). I'm sure we can come up with many more. Illustrations with its description.Dat789 21:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CNY concludes with Lantern festival?

Can somebody well versed in Chinese customs confirm that CNY celebrations are concluded with Lantern festival? This is so as I recall that the 15th (last day of CNY) is "Chinese Valentines' Day" or 元宵节. I stand to be corrected. - p 0 r + z 10:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the relevant link in Mandarin: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%98%A5%E8%8A%82 -- traditionally it's concluded with the Lantern Festival, but many regions have the custom of celebrating what can be literally translated as "the small new year" ( http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%8F%E5%B9%B4 ). As the article states, "大年从腊月最末一天开始，一般认为到正月十五日元宵节为止，亦有未出正月就是年的说法。"
Oh yeah, please don't perpetuate that the Lantern Festival has anything to do with Qi Xi, Chinese Valentines day! They are two completely seperate holidays.Jeffyboy 04:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fifteenth day

I removed the sentence about an old woman with a basket of celery as it didn't make sense and I was unable to find any references or sources that supported its relevance. If there is some reason the old woman and the celery should be in there, please provide a citation. Meiruo 00:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the Chinese link for the 15th of Chinese New Years -- http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%83%E5%AE%B5%E7%AF%80 -- it's not celery that's being used, but green onions (scallions). "在台灣早期，有在元宵節夜裡未婚的女性要偷得蔥來討個吉兆的說法。俗語說：「偷挽蔥，嫁好翁；偷挽菜，嫁好婿」（台灣話發音)". Jeffyboy 04:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pinyin for 除夕

The pinyin for 除夕 should be Chúxī not Chúxì.--M.H. 05:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It is chúxī in mainland China and chúxì in Taiwan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cgkm (talk • contribs) 05:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
But which way is "pinyin"? Or are both pronounciations "pinyin"? --tess 18:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Both are Hanyu pinyin, the disagreement is over the tone of xi 夕. It would be interesting to look into why (speaking in traditional tonal categories), xi is level in one case and oblique in the other. Apeman 06:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Historically 夕 belongs to the entering tone, which no longer exists (and often maps randomly to one of the other tones) in Mandarin. I'm not sure that explains why it's different on the mainland versus Taiwan though, other than perhaps language change. --ian (talk) 03:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

San Francisco

I do not see it mentioned in the article, but I have noticed that the parade here is held a couple of weeks after the New Year starts, so presumably it is set to coincide with the Lantern Festival? It also seems to occur on the weekend, as do most parades here. This year it is scheduled for Saturday, March 3. Past years were February 11, 2006, February 19, 2005, and February 7, 2004, all Saturdays. --Nike 05:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see why SF is singled out since it was the first such parade, but other cities now hold parades too (NYC for one). I'm going to change the heading to the more generic "Chinatown parades" if nobody objects. Wl219 21:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Honorability"

Under the 'Reunion Dinner' heading, the article says that the red packets 'often contain money in certain numbers that reflect good luck and honorability.' There is no such word as 'honorability'; and I'm not sure what was intended and, therefore, whether 'honour' (or 'honor' if you insist on American spelling) is an appropriate substitute. Any suggestions? --Zoe Ocean 01:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think "respect" may be a better term. --tess 18:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boar, not pig ?

Why does it say BOAR and not PIG, pig is the correct translation Potaaatos 16:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we could vote and what ever side gets the more votes that will be the used word, I vote for pig because that is the correct translation Potaaatos 17:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Pig" in Chinese refer to both wild boar and domestic pig because of the difference in language structure. For example, we would say "DomesticPig (家猪)" or "WildPig (野猪)" as one word; this is perfectly normal in Mandarin, however it might seem silly in English. So theoretically both are correct. There's really no need to change it. So I oppose. Yongke 20:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"boar" is just stupid. when was the last time you saw a boar in China? This is like saying we should translate 龍 ("dragon") as "dinosaur" because in Chinese it's also called a "dragon" (恐龍, "terror dragon") --Sumple (Talk) 01:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please avoid injecting personal opinions into the debate. The word "boar" is commonly used where the term "pig" is considered slightly derogatory and informal, such as in media events or other stage performances. Please read Boar before assuming they are entirely different animals from pigs. In actual fact, they are the same. Also note Pig (zodiac), which routinely refers to the Boar.--Huaiwei 01:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kindly note that Wikipedia is not censored. It is wrong to pervert the natural translation of a term because of the hypersensitivity of certain peoples or groups. The fact that the article is at Pig (zodiac), not "Boar (zodiac)", I think, is highly persuasive if not conclusive.
I do know what a boar is, thank you very much, having read Asterix comics in my youth.
They are not the same - which is why we have two words for them in English - boar, and pig. Likewise, there are two words for them in Chinese: 猪 and 野猪.
Look up "pig" in any English-Chinese dictionary, and I warrant you that the first definition is "猪". Likewise, look up "猪" in any Chinese-English dictionary, and I warrant you that the first definition is "pig". --Sumple (Talk) 02:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If they are not the same, would you mind telling us what the differences are, and if the article boar supports your assumptions? If 野猪 is not a 猪, then I suppose 男人 is not a 人 too? Kindly note that this is not a censorship exercise, and does not reflect "hypersensitiveness". It reflects actual usage, while you are attempting to deny the use of one of the two terms.--Huaiwei 03:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, 野猪 is a 猪. But that does not mean that a 猪 is a 野猪. An apple is a fruit, that does not mean a fruit is an apple. As you said, a man is a person, but a person may not be a man!
It's very simple: 猪 means pig, and 野猪 means boar. As for the difference between them, just read boar and pig! Why are there two articles if they are the same thing?
To censor "pig" into "boar" is hypersensitivity, it does not reflect actual usage. Google [1] returns 1.62 million results for "year of the boar", but [2] 7.39 million results for "year of the pig".
Here are some examples of the official usage of "Year of the Pig":
by the Sydney City Council;
by Australia Post;
by New Zealand Post
by the People's Daily
by the Royal Mint.
Before this goes on, let me make it clear that I agree with you that people do call it "Year of the boar" - my contention is that (1) it is not the most common usage and (2) it is inaccurate. "Year of the pig" is more common and more accurate. --Sumple (Talk) 04:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you concur that both terms are indeed used, than why are you the one attempting to censor the use of these terms? I am arguing that both can be used, while you are insisting only one. So just who is doing the censorship exercise here? Secondly, I find it intriguing that you consider the term "pig" more accurate. From where did you actually garner evidence to say that the ancient Chinese are refering only to the domesticated female pig?--Huaiwei 04:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm impressed by your chocolate-vanilla-free choice argument. If you read the article pig, you will notice that the "Pig" genus covers both domestic pigs and wild pigs. It's entirely redundant to say "Pig/Boar" if you want to include male and female, domesticated and wild pigs. "Pig" is a bigger concept than "boar". So "pig" does not mean the domesticated female pig (don't know where you are getting that idea from. Those are called sows.
Secondly, listing both pig and boar everywhere is redundant and does not accord with Wikipedia's Common Names policy. We don't go around listing all names of things - we refer to them by their most common name. If you feel that the "pig/boar" confusion requires explanation, that is best done under Pig (Zodiac), which would greatly benefit from such an explanation. --Sumple (Talk) 06:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, I suggest all you people to first read the entire article on Wikipedia:Naming conflict#How to make a choice among controversial names. It will then become apparent that the most preferred choice is to settle on the most common name or usage of the term in dispute. To identify the common name, I have resorted to the Google Test or Search Engine test. The number of results yielded represents the factor of common usage.
Search Engine results
Search Year of Boar Year of Pig
Google 16,800 310,000
Yahoo 2,500 685,000
ask.com 486 10,900
BBC.co.uk 0 4
In consideration of the above results, it is proven beyond all shadows of doubt that the most common usage is "The Year of Pig".
Further, the term boar by definition is a "a member of the pig's species" by zoological's definition. Naming the specis is the order of choice in the Chinese zodiacs, not a-member-of-something. Just as Rat, which is a name for over 650 species of mammals in a number of different families of the order Rodentia. There is no such thing as Hamster in the Chinese zodiac, because hamster is a member of the order Rodentia.
For the reasons above, I have therefore changed to the use of Pig instead of Boar--Dat789 13:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to rain on your parade, but you did not change it, you need to change both words into pig not just the first one Potaaatos 13:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hah. What a silly discussion on a moot point. I suppose it isn't time to bring up the differences between sheep, goat and ram. Oops, I just did. --Kvasir 23:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most Mainland Chinese translate it as "pig" because they are not taught the word "Boar" as part of standard English teaching. Boar might seem more apt and more accurately reflects traditional artwork, but Pig is the more common English usage in China. - perfectblue (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ehh?

More interurban trips are taken in mainland China in this 40-day period than the total population of China. Can someone please explain to me what this sentence is saying? It doesn't make sense. More than the total population...what? Smokes cannabis in one day? Tourskin 01:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

more trips than people. how hard is that to understand? --Sumple (Talk) 01:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simmer down, took me a couple of goes to get it. The wording is a little hinky - something like "more trips are taken than there are people in China" would be easier to parse. Leobrien 06:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm you're right. --Sumple (Talk) 06:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings

The "Happy New Year" subsection of "Greetings" is sort of a mess. "Guo Nian Hao" is listed as pinyin, yet lacks tones, and is preceeded by simplified characters and succeeded by traditional characters with no reference to their commonality...with another phrase (without pinyin transliteration) in-between. Sadly my Mandarin isn't good enough to fix this, can someone please intercede?

Please revert History section

I really don't care if someone likes potatoes and cheese, and that he/she/it cannot spell. I just want some history. ^_- --72.177.71.189 05:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

already done, but you're well able to do it yourself if neccessary. we can always use more help. Leobrien 06:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you want more history, you should really put in more efforts to fill up the history section. Not come here and wail for one to appear. By the way, you do know that Wikipedia is a charity organisation that strive to keep this as The Free Encyclopedia, dont' you? Nobody works for you in here.--Dat789 13:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bad Luck

Please decide if it is the buying of shoes or of socks is the bad luck. It has been changed back and forth countless of times. And would you please state your reasons as to why you think the change is justified. Please sign in and then edit!

Take a look at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%98%A5%E8%8A%82 , under 習俗, it clearly states that 不買鞋。廣東民間習俗，指農曆一月不應購買鞋（因為「鞋」與廣東話的「唉」聲相似）。 For those less familiar with Mandarin, it states that "People do not buy shoes. In Cantonese tradition, people do not buy shoes on the first month due to "shoes" sounding very similar to "sigh" in their dialect. I do not see any citations for socks, nor do I personally know of this practice being applied to socks amongst my friends and family in the region. Jeffyboy 04:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Cantonese. Its shoes, not socks. So whoever is changing it to socks, if they don't quote another dialect, then they're vandalizing. Also, books are not given because it sounds like the word for "lose" (as in not win). There's a similar issue with "clock" because it sounds like one of the words for "end". tess 22:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion board clean up

Anybody in favor of cleaning up this discussion board for entries dating earlier than January 2006?

semi-protection

I requested semi-protection from IP vandalism several days ago. It was granted, but another admin took it off and we ended up back where we were before. Do people here think vandalism is manageable without semi- or full protection or should we try to bring it back to the admins' attention again? Wl219 22:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Full Moon, Lunar month, etc...

Do we have this article correct, do we mean the Chinese New Year starts with the full moon or within the first lunar month?

Quotation and reference

There is now a quotation, which should appear adjacent to the table of contents. It is intended to give a summary of what Spring Festival is about, from an influential Chinese perspective. It also encourages readers to persevere past the very long table of contents. Discussion on its suitability is welcomed, but I would encourage editors to preserve the reference, even if they alter the quotation in other ways - it is only the second academic source in a very long article. Matt 23:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish, Persian and Kurdish??? !!!!!

Can someone please tell me what is a Muslim greeting used on Ramazan Bayram (Idu l-Fitr) doing in an article about a traditional Chinese festival? I mean, I know that Turks use "Bayram" for every kind of festival, but I don't think there are enough Chinese in Turkey (at least comparing to the US -- English is not here if you care to notice). Moreover, I believe -- although I am not a Muslim so I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty much positive about it -- that the Turkish phrase presented here would only be used for Eid ul-Fitr. This looks very much like a joke to my eyes. Come on?! Turkish, Persian and Kurdish??? Might just add Classical Ottoman, Ancient Greek and everyone's favourite, good old Latin. However there is a point in telling people if there is any greeting in English that Asian people use during this Festival... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.37.166.68 (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Days before the New Year

Can someone tell me what the following sentence (in the second paragraph of that section) means in its context?

"It is for display for the New Year's Eve dinner."

tess (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

It looks like all versions after 4:48 on 2008-01-09 have been vandalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.0.132.109 (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All vandalism on 2008-01-09 was reverted within one minute. — Joe Kress (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Calculating CNY?

Is there a simple way of calculating the date of chinese new year for any year? Like there is one to find the date when Easter falls?82.69.16.174 (talk) 08:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. Nor would I call the arithmetical Easter calculations simple, although they were intentionally simplified to allow table look-up of each underlying parameter (golden number, epact, dominical letter). The Chinese calendar uses astronomical calculations, which are much more complicated. The easiest method is to look up the date in a pre-calculated table, such as the animal/branch table in this article. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Year of the Mouse or the Year of the Rat

My Hong Kong friends and my Vietnamese friends are adamant that this New Year will be the Year of the Mouse. Prior Years of the Rat have been turbulent. Some people are working to change their stars, take control of their destinies, and break with tradition. I know many people with cute mouse statues on their desks right now. --Tintle (talk) 19:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Chinese, the word 鼠 can mean either species. --tess (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chu literally means "change"?

I'm not aware of any definition of chu where it means change. Typical definition indicates elimination or removal. I'm not an etymologist, but it seems like it's chu because it marks the end of the year and that the old year (worries, debt, etc) is eliminated. Auroragb (talk) 16:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "change" is a bad translation--from reading this article it seems maybe whoever put that definition in meant "exchange". "Eliminate" sounds like a better definition. --ian (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even in that case, the "exchange" definition is a lesser contextual meaning, not literal. The article indicates that it has that contextual meaning because it is the connection with the new year day. Auroragb (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

printing problem

I'm running Firefox/2.0.0.11 on OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600.

I can't print this page--to a printer or to PDF.

Works OK in Internet Exploder.

134.84.164.92 (talk) 19:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked to see that your printer supports the character encoding that firefox is set to? - perfectblue (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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