Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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User:Anthon01

(Moved from WP:AN) east.718 at 21:43, February 2, 2008

It appears that this user is being subjected to remedies under the homeopathy probation, but may not have been informed of that probation and so not may not know that remedies could be appealed to the Administrators' noticeboard. Perhaps an independent admin can take a look? —Whig (talk) 18:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Without comment: [1] R. Baley (talk) 18:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That is interesting, why was Anthon01 removed from that list? —Whig (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

East. [2] Anthon01 (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. That makes sense. [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whig (talk • contribs) 19:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the second action against me in 2 days. Why? Anthon01 (talk) 19:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he was properly notified, but more to the point, the reason given for the block is 'stonewalling'.... What is 'stonewalling' in this context and are there diffs that demonstrate this supposed behavior? I know what stonewalling is, in a general sense, but I don't know how it substantively differs from 'continuing to disagree'. Disagree with whom? The consensus? Obviously there IS no consensus, any way but even if there were, disagreeing about it is not disruptive in and of itself. I thought you were allowed to express your disagreement with the consensus (if there is one), as long as you don't engage in disruptive editing. Is there a policy or guideline that describes the parameters of 'stonewalling'? I don't want to accidently violate a guideline or policy that I may not have heard of. Dlabtot (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Probationary sanctions were imposed by an uninvolved admin (see here), who also implied there were some checkuser findings being sorted out. Those sanctions can be appealed here, if that's Anthon01's intent, in which case I'd suggest briefly making a case and allowing input from other uninvolved admins. You could also ask the admin placing the sanction for specifics if that's your concern. MastCell ^Talk 19:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The stated reason for the block is "stonewalling". Was that accurate? or was he blocked for some other reason? What was that reason? Someone's suspicions? Something that was implied? What is the specific reason he was blocked? Dlabtot (talk) 20:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile the edit warring rages on with nary a warning or block or ban in sight, except me. And guess what. I haven't touch the article at all. By an admin who has express his disdain for alternative medicine. Anthon01 (talk) 19:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Presenting a case? How long will the case stay open? Will Guy come by and take another swipe at me trying reveal my indentity an accusing me of being a meat puppet and commanding to leave, as he repeatedly does? Anthon01 (talk) 19:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So far, you're not making a very persuasive case. MastCell ^Talk 19:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering I just caught you using a half dozen accounts to edit war for the past six months across multiple pseudoscience-related articles and had the results verified via checkuser, the more germane question seems to be if you can evade a block. east.718 at 20:02, February 2, 2008

Half dozen accounts? Please read the checkuser account carefully. You're making alot of unfair accusations here. You are wrong. Ask FT2 if I have a half dozen accounts. You should do you homework before accusing me. Anthon01 (talk) 21:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Again wrong. Will I be given enough for me to comment and other admins to comment? Anthon01 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

What is your comment on the Checkuser report here? Why is it wrong? Lawrence § t/e 20:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a relevant link .[4] Quack Guru 20:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

East. I know you have you work cut out for you. This problem is a big one but you've pointed your adminstrative arrow in the wrong direction. Note as I have left the problem has gotten worse. Just consider that I may be a moderating force instead of an extremist. I have reached consensus with a number of editors including Jim Butler, Art Carlson and Scientizzle and Arthur Rubin. So far I am unimpressed by your efforts in this case. Your block of JacobLad is unimpressive. [5] Used once for 1.5 hours and never never used again. Please delete as you can see I have no need for it. Anthon01 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I will defend this on my talk page. And let me say it here before Guy comes through for his drive-by accusation. I have absolutely `nothing to do with Ilena. Anthon01 (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

While there was strong suspicion in the beginning that Anthon01 might be Anthony Zaffuto, the partner of User:Ilena, I no longer believe this to be the case and think that no one should raise this accusation against him. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I will comment here once I have completed my defense there. Anthon01 (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have sent my explanation to FT2 and am awaiting his reply. Anthon01 (talk) 01:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

(copy from my talk page) You learn mostly by floating around WP. I notice from reading talk pages that some editors have more than one account. So early on in my experience here, I decided to try it as experiment. I used JacobLad on one day and one day only.[6] I wasn't sure what the point was and didn't know there was a problem with doing until after. I still don't know what the rules really are because I see others talk about openly on there talk pages. Anyway I decided it didn't interest me and haven't used it again since that day.

Bottom line is, with one exception on 1 day, I use one account and one account only, that is Anthon01. FT2 can confim that.

I have a computer at home, a computer at the office, a computer at the library. My computer at the office is static. My home computer is mostly static (cable service). There is a time limit on how long you can stay inactive before you are automatically logged out by WP servers. More in a momment. Anthon01 (talk) 21:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

FT2: I think I can prove to you that I didn't willfully evade a ban, but I will have to do it at least partially by email because it involves discussing IP addresses. Are you willing to do that? Anthon01 (talk) 22:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So I use different computers for convenience. FT2 can confirm that when I login using all those different IPs, I alway use the same account. I think in the last 2 months I have posted a message using an IP only twice, both times erroneously as I didn't notice that I had been logged out by the WP server. I'm sure all of you can relate to that. I was blocked only once, back at the beginning of December I think. FT2 can confirm that the IPs he has found were not used during that time. Anthon01 (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

...

I have no idea whether the libraries computer are static or not. I have only posted from there rarely. Why do I post from there? I have access to full-text journals. SO I can read the whole article before commenting. Could you imagine how much better WP could be if we all had acces to full text instead of depending on an Abstract? Anyway, thats the reasons for all the different IPs. Now East718 has accused me of having half a dozen different accounts. Wrong. Please read checkuser over. FT2 can confirm that. More to come ... Anthon01 (talk) 22:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(End of copy from my talk page) Anthon01 (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Commenting purely on the sock concerns (and not on any other article editing matters): Quick summary - The information available supports AGF on the sock concerns, with lessons hopefully learned about the perils of not logging in, that no harm was done with the Jacoblad account, and no malice seems to have been intended. The editing both logged in and logged out, and under multiple IPs (home, work etc) was problematic and might have led to further sock concerns, but hopefully Anthon will avoid that in future. I have taken steps in private to address that. (My comment). FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 12:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

While Anthon01 may appeal to some few collaborative situations with some editors (a couple of whom share his POV on many alternative medicine matters), he is pretty much constantly in conflict with editors who are scientific skeptics and supporters of mainstream POV. Those conflicts cannot be ignored or undone by a few favorable situations when editors of his own persuasion support him. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Fyslee: I will be commenting a little later today. Anthon01 (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a recent example where consensus is reached with mainstream editors, and not editors of [my] own persuasion.[7] I will find another. Anthon01 (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I still want to know what 'stonewalling' is, precisely, and see the diffs in which User:Anthon01 engaged in this behavior. Dlabtot (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise how can I defend myself properly. Anthon01 (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Background info regarding improper use of a sock by Anthon01

In contrast to Anthon01's statement above, I find the actions of Anthon01 while using his sock puppet, JacobLad, quite "impressive" and a significant violation of policy here. Talk about a deliberate attempt to avoid scrutiny! I noticed the edits by JacobLad at the time because they occurred at a very opportune time for Anthon01. Why? Because at that exact time period (minutes) we were engaged in a very heated discussion (with Anthon01 being backed up by Levine2112, both of whom are very strong advocates of chiropractic, a competing profession) about edits that made quite false implications about my own profession of Physical Therapy.

This diff is the last edit in the section where the discussion can be found, so the whole section can be read on that page. I tried to improve the false phrase by a rewording and the introduction of very good sources. They continually reverted it. You will notice that the List still fails to contain a single mention of chiropractic in any manner, even though numerous attempts have been made, even with good sources, to include its pseudoscientific aspects (vertebral subluxation, Innate Intelligence, vitalism). This situation is caused mainly by the efforts of Levine2112, who claims to be a "chiropractic advocate" and has admitted he is here "to protect chiropractic's reputation." [8] The edit history of the List shows this charge to be true. This type of deletionism of well sourced inclusions needs to be stopped. It is disruptive protectionism and violates NPOV policy. When Anthon01 arrived, they became a tag team to protect chiropractic.

By editing the Physical Therapy article in the manner which he did, Anthon01 was effectively taking revenge by attempting to smear my profession. He was trying to do it at the List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts, and then he used a sock puppet to do it at the PT article itself. He also edited it using his Anthon01 username, in cooperation with Levine2112.

It is important to note that I respect NPOV, even when it goes against me and even when it means the addition of nonsense, as long as it is encyclopedic and properly sourced. That is why I didn't revert his additions or edit war with him and Levine2112, since the additions were properly sourced and to some degree true. Whether they are a notable POV is another matter, since the same can be said of some aspects in most mainstream medical professions, and most aspects of all alternative medicine. It is an especially ironic situation, considering it is an example of the Two wrongs make a right logical fallacy being used by two believers in alternative medicine and pseudoscience. They delete obviously good sources that criticize their favorite profession, and then attack a mainstream profession in revenge.

All of mainstream medicine has issues of this type because we are working with inherited techniques that seem to work, but are sometimes uncertain. Fortunately they are dumped if proven to be ineffective. That last part isn't mentioned by them in their edits there.... Within alternative medicine, and to a large degree chiropractic, this is not the case. Applied Kinesiology is itself a notable example of a pseudoscience being practiced by a rather large number of chiropractors. It is also an article which Anthon01 tried to dominate when he arrived here.

What should be done about this misuse of a sock puppet to edit disruptively (even when using good sources) is up to admins to decide. It was definitely not a collaborative situation. Just because it happened some time ago, doesn't mean it should go unpunished. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Fyslee: I will be commenting a little later today. Anthon01 (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This definitely puts the use of the sock, together with copious volumes of other disruptive activites on the part of Anthon01, in a new light. Thanks Fyslee.--Filll (talk) 15:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive? Prove it! Anthon01 (talk) 15:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Two comments: (1) are you not under some administrative restriction now? (2) your posts here speak for themselves. I rest my case.--Filll (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well consider me ignorant. I am under no admin restriction. Please clarify. Please consider WP is very new to me, and certainly this process of adminstrative review is. Anthon01 (talk) 15:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Filll: Re: copious volumes of other disruptive activites. Prove it. This is hyperbole on your part. Anthon01 (talk) 15:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The current situation is a bit too dangerous for me to engage in this sort of provocative and confrontational activity. I leave it to the admins who have already dealt with you and I suspect might deal with you further in the future if an attitude and behavior shift is not imminent. I hope so.--Filll (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you consider striking out some of your inflammatory comments? Anthon01 (talk) 16:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully decline to do so, until such time as I am informed by some authority that this was a mistake or has been rescinded, and Fyslee informs me that he was mistaken. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 16:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee: This is mostly a rant. Theres is absolutely no need to respond to most of what you have written here as it belongs on a talk page. If you would like we can take it to your or my page, or a talk page if you find that more appropriate. If there is a specific violation policy that you think I should be penalized for then state it and I will respond. Anthon01 (talk) 15:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee: Please provide diffs. Anthon01 (talk) 15:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth having this user around?

Can anyone point to one positive contribution this user has made? If not, should we consider, perhaps, a community ban? ScienceApologist (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Does this editor actually do any editing? While communication is an important part of the wikipedia process, it has to be balanced with contributions to our primary purpose - that of creating an ecyclopedia. I am not seeing much evidence of this balance. I think before a community ban, the editor should be encouraged to spend some time doing some editing... --Fredrick day (talk) 19:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01 has done sufficient editing for the encouragement to be unnecessary. SA's point stands. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 20:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems a fair point, sadly. The sheer tendentiousness by which he has handled his "defence" here does not suggest future promise, either. Orderinchaos 11:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The reaction by his opponents to requests for diffs to substantiate the accusation of "stonewalling" (such requests have been made three times above and twice below by User:Dlabtot and twice above by User:Anthon01, and answered zero times) can, ironically enough (unless I've missed something) be reasonably characterized as stonewalling. —Random832 18:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I gave a diff. Did you miss it? ScienceApologist (talk) 16:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Diffs of all kinds of problematic edits

• [9] Falsely claiming lack of consensus.
• [10] Falsely claiming lack of consensus.
• [11] Disregarding a study to suit his POV.
• [12] Adding a red herring comment to further his disregard.
• [13] Adding emotive language to further insult the person offering the study.
• [14] Wikilawyering to push his POV.
• [15] Jumping to conclusions about how a review's "determination" will affect future research (as if that's Wikipedia' concern).
• [16] More Wikilawyering pretending that editors who are perhaps more steeped in NPOV than any other part of the encyclopedia don't understand it.
• [17] Discounting a survey based on raw numbers rather than considering the sampling (a common tactic of POV-pushers who wish to denounce a less-than-flattering survey).
• [18] Quixotic comment: perhaps meant to convey distrust of a source?
• [19] Pure stonewalling.
• [20] Ad hominem dismissal of a reliable source.

I could keep going, but will spare the reader. Just go through his contributions. It's not hard to see that this user does not so much disrupt discussions as much as he destroys them with questionable rhetoric and ridiculous repetition.

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for providing diffs. I will review them and comment later. Anthon01 (talk) 22:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist: Why did you feel you needed to comment on each the diffs? If they're so damning, shouldn't they speak for themselves? Anthon01 (talk) 01:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why it is User:ScienceApologist, one of the main combatants in this WP:BATTLE, who is providing this 'evidence', rather than User:East718, the blocking admin... Dlabtot (talk) 22:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have personally checked all of the diffs that ScienceApologist supplied. None of them seem remotely problematic to me, all of them seem perfectly appropriate. The last one, which ScienceApologist characterized as "Ad hominem dismissal of a reliable source" is particularly contrary to the fact that Quackwatch has been found to be an unreliable and partisan source by the Arbitration committee. —Whig (talk) 22:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Whig, we know that you are not neutral on this issue. Please refrain from lobbying. I am unsure why East718 has not commented. The continued battling here is not helpful. Please send an email to East718 asking for a response, Anthon01. Thank you. Jehochman ^Talk 22:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobody seems to be neutral on this issue, however. I am correct in pointing out counterfactual descriptions of diffs if nobody else will do so, as Anthon01 is entitled to have someone point that out. —Whig (talk) 04:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sent him an email. ScienceApologist isn't neutral either as we are often on opposite sides of an issue. Anthon01 (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

East.718 has not been online on 5 Feb, and only made one edit on 4 Feb. It's likely that he hasn't seen this thread. Horologium (talk) 01:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the statement that QW was found not to be a WP:RS was clarified to state that some QW pages are not reliable. Whig's statement above qualifies as censored tendentious. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How so? Do you mean that incorrect statements are qualified as tendentious. Anthon01 (talk) 18:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I mean that Whig's statement is a misinterpretation of the ArbComm ruling as clarified. As it's being used in an edit war, that makes it tendentious. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I need to express concern that Jehochman has asked Whig to refrain from lobbying because Whig is not "neutral" on this case. However, neither is Jehochman or anyone else here (including myself)...and because there are a lot more people here who have strong POV against homeopathy and Anthon01, the result is obvious and predictable. I sincerely hope that all penalties against Anthon01 be voided until an independent and/or outside group analyse the situation. Anthon01 has continually be a gentleman, but he has also had a backbone, and many of us have continually seen an active effort to mute people who express a pro-homeopathy point of view. Considering all of the strongly worded antagonistic and even offensive statements that exist in many articles related to homeopathy, the individuals who try to provide some balance by providing RS, V, and notable references that just happen to provide a positive view of homeopathy are often harrassed, have their contributions deleted completely (not just partially), and have had efforts like this one to mute them. Dana Ullman ^Talk 07:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-cleaning glass spamming

There is a discussion about Self-cleaning glass on Talk:Self-cleaning glass, which needs third person imput, User:Mikkalai, removed the speedy delete templates on brandname SunClean and Pilkington Activ he started himself, wont agree on removing the manufacturer part on the article, however i believe its an active editor, so what to do. Mion (talk) 03:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What you didn't mention is that both are not articles he started, but simple redirects, one to the company that makes the brand and the other to the generic product article. Is it even possible for a redirect to be spam, or speedily deletable? In any event I don't see that this is spam at all. Plus, the user listed both competing companies - he's obviously not shilling for one of them or the other. I cleaned up the Self-cleaning glass article slightly to mention the manufacturers in prose (and avoid the links to redirects) rather than listing them so it would be less of a list. Beyond that, I don't see how this is possibly important enough to worry about. I'm not an administrator so I'll let the administrators decide if this is worthy of intervention. Wikidemo (talk) 05:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Like i said, he started the redirects to extrapromote the brand, i didn't say Mikkalai started the articles, so i didn't mention that, now to prevent editwars, the speedy delete template states, you can add {{hangon}} and give your argument to an admin, there is no exception for that. Mion (talk) 06:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

As for the new edits on the article from user Wikidemo, moving the disputed content from the left to the right of the article is not changing anything in my opinion. However it gets interesting, even if internal spamming is not seen the same as external spamming, the page is used as yellow pages, and for that, Wikipedia is not the yellow pages, as per Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Mion (talk) 13:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC).

User:Mion has to be explained that their notion about "spamming" are nontraditional, to put it mildly. What I am doing with the article is kinda "industrial espionage" rather than "advertising" or something. Also, I would ask someone to advice them that a better good is in expanding articles instead of messing with formalities and bickering in talk pages. 'Míkka>t 01:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Does Mikka work for both Pilkington and PPG? I don't think so. I'd call those plausible search terms, and therefore reasonable candidates for redirects. Guy (Help!) 18:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, my notion of SPAM is not so nontraditional, Wikipedia_talk:Spam#Internal_link_spamming, it might not be covered by WP:SPAM, which is used as an argument now, it still is in conflict with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and to be traditional, brandnames are copyrighted and non free, use of them is not advised/discouraged on wikipedia, this might change if you deliver proof of permission to Wikipedia:OTRS. Cheers Mion (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

To follow the advice : I ask an admin to rollback them all, add a speedy delete template on the brandname redirects and posting a warning on the user's talk page that the editor is not only being disruptive but should read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Mion (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Brand names are trademarked, not copyrighted. And you're misinterpreting that "internal link spamming" definition. —Random832 14:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And trademarks are copyrighted, however this might be different per country. Mion (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That might be, but for me yellow pages provide productinformation, and related company names and brands, according to the yellow pages definition it looks like this article Self-cleaning glass. Mion (talk) 20:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I moved this discussion to the proper talkpage Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#.3D.3D_Self-cleaning_glass_spamming_.3D.3D, any follow up on this discussion please on the talkpage of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Mion (talk) 21:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Intolerable intolerance (at Muhammad)

I know this is at least the third section here on the fiasco over at Muhammad because of the images, but none of those sections seemed to get at the heart of the issue. So, I have to ask: is the block button broken? The support for the images goes back through months, and perhaps years, and are immortalized in our (caution: irony ahead) five pillars. And yet, when accounts, no doubt spawned by a 90K-signature petition come here to remove the images, we respond by protecting the article, calling this an edit war, and leaving the single-purpose meatpuppets alone. Why? We should remove the full protection (but keep the semi-protection), so good-faith editors on Wikipedia can make valid improvements to the article, and block the offenders. We should not be tolerating the type of intolerance coming from these disruptive users, who obviously have no respect for how Wikipedia works and are instead bent on disrupting the article into submission. They haven't succeeded (and won't succeed) in disrupting it to the point of getting the images removed, but they, in a way, have still succeeded by getting the article protected -- not just from them, but from good-faith contributors -- for the umpteenth time. Seriously, at what point are we going stand up and see this as an intolerable level of disruption that needs to be killed in the face? -- tariqabjotu 17:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

and the flip to this is that some of our "good faith" editors want to more seriously consider their posts on the associated talkpages because a lot of the commentary from our experienced editors is just baiting, pure and simple and is not helpful. If we want people to have respect for how we work - let's not piss on their hands when they reach them out... --Fredrick day (talk) 17:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what or whom you're referring to. -- tariqabjotu 17:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, it's the nicest thing to do and the most political thing to do to let people have their say and move on. If you want to make edits to the articles, use the {{editprotected}} template. Cheers, WilyD 17:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm not sure what you're saying here. -- tariqabjotu 17:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocking IPs or clueless newbies is unlikely to bring any positive results, but it is likely to bring negative results. Explain patiently what's going on, or ignore them - the comments will be archived soon enough. In the meantime, use the editprotected template for any edit you want to make. WilyD 18:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"The comments will be archived soon enough"? I'm not talking about the commenters; I'm talking about the drive-by image removers, the ones who got the article protected. Those drive-by removers certainly should be pointed to the talk page, but if they have no interest to go there but continue removing the image, they should be blocked. And (as I said to Wily in a talk page comment), I don't see the negative results as a likely consequence. -- tariqabjotu 18:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What are you suggesting? Semi-protect the article and block new SPA accounts that remove the images? Perhaps this might work when things have died down a bit, but right now I'd say protection is warranted due to the numbers of individuals involved. Guy (Help!) 18:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

As it stands, the article is indef semi'd (for a variety of reasons) and various SPAs are blocked (although we try to be gentle with image removers, considering, and give them a goodly number of chances). Full protection is common there too, not much we can do about it. But we don't need to be any more draconian in enforcing order. Protections are fine, blocks are usually the wrong direction. WilyD —Preceding comment was added at 18:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is fully protected, and has been for several hours. The template was just incorrect (and I went ahead and corrected it just now). But, anyway, yes JzG, that's what I was suggesting -- downgrade to semi-protection and block the SPAs. (The last two SPAs to edit the article before protection do not appear to be blocked, which is why I came here to raise the issue of reconsidering our approach to this). -- tariqabjotu 18:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It was already semi-protected the day before, so the SPAs were registering accouns and removing the images. All that happened was it was moved from semi to full. It's best left at full protection. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 19:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning that this business is getting major coverage on the mouth-breathing side of the blogosphere, notably this thread on Little Green Footballs. Expect a higher than normal amount of trolling and Islamophobic comments as a result. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You realize that it's been mentioned in places like the New York Times as well? -Amarkov moo! 01:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I do now that you've pointed it out. :-) However, I somehow doubt that hordes of pitchfork-wielding NYT readers are likely to descend on the article... -- ChrisO (talk) 01:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's important to note that the vast majority of the edits done in the past few days to remove the images in question were done by sleeper accounts, some of which were registered as far back as 2006. It's possible that some of them were created at the time to create articles that were subsequently deleted, because most of them have few or no other edits in their logs. Nevertheless, they have popped back up in an effort to continue vandalizing this article while it is semi-protected. See the following account creation logs if you're curious (for some reason, the last one doesn't actually have any entries in the account creation log): [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] --Dachannien^Talk_Contrib 20:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I really think the first account on that list should be indefblocked right now.

Actually, though, I had a response to Tariq's statement above; in particular, I think its patently ridiculous to call these various SPAs 'meatpuppets', given that there's evidence that 90,000 people at least feel strongly about this issue. Unless we now wish to extend that label to everyone who disagrees, in a particular way, with how any article is written.

In fact, its probably a little inappropriate to call them SPAs as well, as they would probably have happily removed the pictures as IPs if the article weren't semi-protected. We're forcing them to log in to accounts they might not otherwise use. That's a far cry from a preferred "style of account use". Relata refero (talk) 04:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The definition of "meatpuppet" seems to work perfectly well with the situation here. We have a petition that it herding people toward this article. There are some who create accounts (or even don't create accounts) and comment on the talk page. Annoying, but okay. Then there are others who have created accounts at some point and then have edits that are almost exclusively (or just exclusively) about deleting this image. When the article is fully-protected or when they are told to hit the talk page, they are, unsurprisingly, MIA on the talk page. As I see it, those are single-purpose meatpuppets. The fact that the initiator of this petition has gotten thousands of people (it's not really 100,000 individuals) to flood the page does not dilute that fact that they're meatpuppets. Certainly "single-purpose" anmd "meatpuppets" are debatable terms, but they're in no way "patently ridiculous" or "a little inappropriate". -- tariqabjotu 05:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

We should reserve use of the term to when individuals attempt to gain consensus by recruiting other individuals. I saw the definition of meatpuppet, and its quite clear that a meatpuppet is one who edits "on behalf or as a proxy for another editor". That isn't at all what we have here. The petition doesn't suggest changing the article, it suggests signing the petition and hopes that WP will take notice. The inititator of the petition hasn't told all these people individually; news of the petition has spread organically, and is now even in reliable sources. The point is that calling these people 'meatpuppets' means that we are claiming that their opinions are to be disregarded because they are all representing a single editor. That is, indeed, ridiculous. There are, other, foundational, issues, why we may ignore their opinion, but that isn't one of them. Relata refero (talk) 07:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Incivility, Talk page violations, harassment, despite warnings, sock puppeteering, User:Griot

User:Griot is repeatedly inserting inappropriate content on my talk page, http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:76.87.47.110&action=history, despite warnings. User has deleted my comments from article talk page, http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ralph_Nader%27s_presidential_campaigns&diff=189055562&oldid=188984445. User continues to revert content on Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns, despite warnings http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Griot&diff=189080131&oldid=189078953. Sock puppeteering, evidenced here http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:MiFeinberg&action=history and here http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User:MiFeinberg. Thank you, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 10:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I make no comment to the charges of talk-page violations or of harassment, however I see no evidence of abusive sockpuppetry. Useing two separate accounts is expressly ALLOWED, except where the use of both accounts is an attempt to disrupt or to evade a prior block. I also don't see much evidence that these are the same person at all. They don't appear to edit in the same sorts of articles for the most part... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Also strongly suspect User:Sedlam is a sock puppet of User:Griot, with User:Feedler.User:Jayron32, I have never heard that sock puppets are allowed. Could you post the link that specifically verifies this? 76.87.47.110 (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Some more examples of problems with Griot

Examples of likely sock puppetry

one two three four five

then begins extended rapidfire disruptive extended strafing as Sedlam: [35] through [36]

Then jumps back in as Griot for more disruptive editing.

Griot's Conflict of Interest

Griot describes his own serious personal grudge against Ralph Nader, yet persists in attempting to make the article show the subject in the most negative light, and disrupt efforts for balance.

False claims of "compromise"

Griot makes false claims compromises were reached on article content, than will supply article diffs, rather than actual talk page discussion, as "proof." Boodlesthecat (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If you think you've got a case for sockpuppetry, checkuser would be your best bet. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that the above statements by User:Boodlesthecat are true. User:Griot has been repeatedly warned about erasing talk pages, sock puppetry, disruptive reverting, POV pushing on articles and fabricating compromises, especially Ralph Nader and related, Chris Daly, Matt Gonzalez and others, yet the behaviors persist. It is too big of a problem for one user, or even two. Request assistance, please. Thank you, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And yet more abuse by Griot:

Deleting other editors talk page comments:

Here is one example of Griot deleting other editor's talk page comments; in this case deleting a request that he stop making obviously false mischaracterizations of other editors. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding fabrication and personal attack from http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ralph_Nader%27s_presidential_campaigns&diff=189557192&oldid=189554703: "User 76.87.47.110's actions were deemed without merit -- because they have no merit." 76.87.47.110 (talk) 22:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Interested admins may want to note that the above IP (76.87.47.110 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) was blocked in November for sockpuppeting -- oh, the irony -- and comes from the same ISP as the blocked-for-6-months IP 76.166.123.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) aka the now-blocked Teleogen (talk · contribs) aka The Nervous Mermaid (talk · contribs) (see also here), pursuing a years-long edit war on Ralph Nader and against User:Griot specifically. Lots of smoke, no fire, in other words. --Calton | Talk 02:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The above user was offered an incivility warning here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Calton#Civility, which might explain his sudden presence and unfounded accusations. Attempts to discredit other editors do not erase or smoke screen the violations of User:Griot. 76.87.47.110 (talk) 10:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Why yes, that must be it, considering that your "civility warning" -- which has already been called bogus or, the use the exact term, "unwarranted" -- 'was placed by you nearly 4 hours AFTER I posted the above[37]. In which chronological direction does cause and effect work for you?

If any evidence of the lack of substance to the ever-edit-warring anon were needed, that might be a good one. --Calton | Talk 15:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, comments like "In which chronological direction does cause and effect work for you?" are uncivil. The editor pointed out that reverting content is not necessarily uncivil, but was not addressing your tone, which is. I see you have been warned and were recently blocked for incivility. Please try to remain WP:CIVIL. Thank you, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 01:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nooo, they're reality-based, commenting on the physical impossiblity of your latest absurd claim/paranoia. --Calton | Talk 06:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

IP posts the Jyllands-Posten cartoons on the talk page of a muslim

About ten minutes ago, 61.69.35.1 (talk · contribs) told us to remove the images of the prophet Muhammad from Wikipedia. A few minutes later, 75.164.187.15 (talk · contribs) posted the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammad on the talk page of 61.69.35.1. Is a stern warning enough? Or has this happened before? Is this something to keep an eye out for? Aecis^Brievenbus 00:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've issued a level one vandalism warning to User:75.164.187.15. Corvus cornix_talk 00:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Level one seems on the low side for what was clearly a deliberate attempt to provoke an editor's religious sensitivities. Bencherlite^Talk 00:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think a level 3 (formerly "blatant vandalism") would havew been appropriate. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 00:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd have no objection to deleting the edit--or even to oversight it. DGG (talk) 00:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It does no good to jump the queue, or admins will remove it at WP:AIV for not having given the user the full series of warnings. Corvus cornix_talk 00:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The warning should be for use of copyright images in a context where fair use is not allowed. The religious sensibilities of someone who makes what appear to be legal and other threats from a single-purpose/single-edit IP address shouldn't count for anything. Argyriou (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit was clearly in bad faith and an attempt to provoke the other anon. "The religious sensibilities of someone..." - they are still a person and deserve respect. Let's not make a bad situation worse by suggesting that we only care about people who are nice to us and others can be treated like crap as long as there isn't a copyright violation in the process. Mr.Z-man 00:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I strongly disagree. This user has an issue with the images. We have made a consensual decision not to let such issues change our stance. But that doesn't mean that shoving such images in the face of the user is alright. When the user views articles about Muhammad, he or she may expect images of Muhammad. But no users expects to see the image when clicking "You've got a new message." This was a clear and deliberate attempt to offend a muslim user. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(double ec) Agree with Z-man and Aecis. Just because someone makes an apparent threat does not mean that it's open season for others to retaliate. Bencherlite^Talk 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Corvus, there is no rule that says that warnings must always start at level one. The level of faith required for each warning is illustrated at Wikipedia:WARN#Multi-level templates - a bad faith edit can get a level three warning straight away. No admin will say "he's vandalised past a level 4, but never had a level 1, so I'll let him off for now". Bencherlite^Talk 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No, there is no rule, but it has always been my experience that if a vandal doesn't get four warnings, the person doing the vandal fighting is the one who gets slapped in the face for reporting it to WP:AIV (and not even getting a notice that the nomination has been removed) so that the vandal can continue with their efforts. Corvus cornix_talk 00:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re Corvus: I changed the AIV rules so that a full series of warnings wasn't required (which is unneedlessly bureaucratic) to a more sensible, more likely followed way of reporting - if an editor has vandalised, knows they're doing it, and hasn't stopped, only a lvl4 or a lvl3+4 is needed. If an admin insists on the former, they really really shouldn't have the tools unless they can show at least an ounce of common sense. Will ^(talk) 00:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Corvis' hesitation is rightly felt, we've seen the sort of backlash he describes before; however, I think that community consensus on this is that for either the image use, or the generally hateful use of the images, a higher level warning would be acceptable. Both, taken in provocation oriented context, clearly have community support for either the lvl 4 or the 'One chance warning'. And that's kind, i'd put a month long IP block in place if I had the buttons. ThuranX (talk) 01:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Its just a generic residential IP, a month would most likely be overkill by about 29 days. Mr.Z-man 01:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Meh, I'm no good at understanding IP to English translations, so it's jsut as well that I lack the button for that, although wouldn't a generic residential IP mean that it's one that's more or less tied to a household? ThuranX (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is really bad that Argyriou think it is OK to attack Muslims. Here people can go to jail for this kind of attacks. The user should get a long block. --Kaypoh (talk) 01:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Woah! Point to one single solitary thing I have said which says that I think it's ok to attack Muslims. I demand a retraction and an apology immediately. 03:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corvus cornix (talk • contribs)

I misread the part about the level one warning. If you think this attack should get a level one warning, it means you think he should get away with attacking Muslims. But when I read it again, I see you just think that you must give a level one warning and go up to a level four warning or the admins won't block the user. My English is not so good. Now I give you a retraction and apology. By the way, I think a level one warning is not enough and he should get a long block or a higher level warning. --Kaypoh (talk) 04:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I was flabbergasted at the accusation, and probably reacted harshly, but I didn't want that sort of reputation. Corvus cornix_talk 05:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I find it really offfensive that Attiq Ur Rehman thinks it's ok to attack free speech. In a free country like the United States, where Wikipedia is located, people are free from the censorious behavior of religious "authorities". People like Ur Rehman should go to jail for their attempted censorship. Argyriou (talk) 19:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

By all means, that's not any sort of behavior I'd want to see encouraged or tolerated. Racial, cultural, and religious attacks must be non-starters in our community. Definitely the user should have been warned and monitored, and blocked if they had continued. I'm inclined to see the single edit from 75.164.187.15 in a rather negative light, but I have to admit it's pretty hard to accurately read intention from a single text-free edit. In context, this is essentially posting a shock image on someone's user talk. Definite no-no. This seems to be resolved, for now, pending new developments. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Obvious baiting should be removed, if persistant block the offender. WilyD 19:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's absolutely unacceptable for that IP to have posted those pictures. There's no need to go through the traditional warning process in this case, the same way we wouldn't go through it for a vandal who used slurs against a gay editor, or a jewish editor. We'd block that account immediately. Seeing as it's an IP, blocking isn't a first-choice response, but we certainly shouldn't be tolerating it. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jeeny (talk · contribs) → GeeAlice (talk · contribs)

Just a heads up that I've filed an RFCU about Jeeny (talk · contribs) and GeeAlice (talk · contribs). It does not look like previous disruptive conduct is about to reform any time soon. — Zerida 00:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a notice on GeeAlice's talk page about this or the RFCU. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Notified GeeAlice, though I suspect she knew given that she deleted these quotes from her user page [38] (which User:Jeeny also used to have on hers) after I filed the 3RR report. — Zerida 01:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the quotes because of rude behavor by Zerida, and others. Zerida kept reverting a tag I placed on an image to be renamed, Egyptians.jpg to Egyptians collage.jpg. I posted to his talk page asking why, and he responded rudely. I was trying to explain the reason for this change, now this. ←Gee♥Alice 01:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a note that I have indef blocked GeeAlice (talk · contribs) per the outcome of the checkuser. A no brainer since she logged out and started editwarring on the RFCU. -- lucasbfr ^talk 10:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that User talk:Jeeny was deleted because Jeeny claimed to want to execute the right to vanish, but plainly has not done so, should it be undeleted? -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 16:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Lot of that going around lately, huh. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's only a matter of time before she creates her next sockpuppet--I've seen it before. It doesn't stop their pathological obsession or stalking either. However, I don't think it was a good idea to delete the talk page; with such abusive users, all the evidence goes along with it. — Zerida 20:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The talk page should definitely be undeleted. In fact, I seem to recall posting to this very board a while ago that Jeeny was going to be a problem user.....⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 20:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, problem users that use the right to disappear as a fast exit strategy should lose that right if they reappear. David D. (Talk) 22:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Bluemarine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) evading ban on Wikimedia Commons

Banned User Matt Sanchez aka Bluemarine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is posting photos of himself to Wikimedia Commons here, in an apparent attempt to place more photos that violate copyright on his article page. If he's banned for one year on Wikipedia, shouldn't that also extend to Commons? --Eleemosynary (talk) 03:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

For better or worse, En-wiki bans apply only to this project. If the user is misbehaving on Commons, the matter would have to be raised with Commons administrators. Commons is free-media only (no fair use) so one would assume that if the pictures are indeed copyvios, that would be addressed there expeditiously. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Eleemosynary (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked his last upload, he's not putting any source, post this at common's admin board and it should be handled quickly. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've given the Commons account a warning and asked Mr Sanchez to provide the necessary source and licence information. If he does so and anyone then wants to contest that information, they can do so at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests. Sandstein (talk) 12:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:SandyGeorgia, User:MastCell, User:Eubulides POV issues on Wikipedia:Asperger_syndrome

Asperger's Syndrome is a complex disorder in which functional deficits co-occur with areas of talent. This has been demonstrated clinically in large scale studies.

The article, and the small group of editors currently prevailing there, reject and revert any contribution which attempts to include this information. This has been going on for quite some time.

I placed a POV tag on the article, and added some material as a start. I knew a certain skepticism prevailed, so i stuck with the highest quality sources, world-famous researchers and research centers, peer reviewed with PMID's, etc. Within 24 hours my work was expunged, the POV tag repeatedly removed, and I received several threats to my userpage.

Not to take up too much of your time, but to recap,

I added this ...[39]

User:SandyGeorgia deleted the POV tag, due to my low edit count. She insists I need the group's permission to place the tag. She also moves my contribution to the trailing section [40]

The inevitable debate ensues in Talk, and I insist the tag is not placed by group consent, but precisely to indicate there are is an ongoing debate (and to welcome the reader to visit the debate in Talk.) I replace the POV tag, and polish what little material i have had chance to add thus far. User:MastCell then moves the tag from the Article to a subsection : [41]

I move it back, explaining that I find that POV applies to the entire article : [42]

I add a dozen or so sources to support this in Talk, here:[43]

User:Eublides removes the POV tag once again. He then removes my contributions to the article (with 2 out of 3 sources) - without so much as waiting for me to reply in Talk. [44]

Obviously I am not a newb; in fact an old timer who invoked his Jimbo-given Right To Disappear. But that shouldn't matter.

I am saddened that a newb coming here, regardless of his sources and good faith should be required to ask permission to simply disagree, and can expect his edits to be summarily zapped. I also have apparently accused of being "off-wiki canvassed" or some such thing. Anyway, you get the idea. Sitadel (talk) 05:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Drive-by tagging is an issue which has no good resolution; that is, when individuals bring up arguments about the neutrality of an article which have either been settled before, or which have no basis in fact. Often, in these cases, editors come to the conclusion that there needs to be an agreement that the disagreement is substantially different from those which have come before, and been addressed. --Haemo (talk) 05:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk page review of the situation begins here, along with links to off-Wiki canvassing and another fine example of a civil discussion towards consensus among the regular editors at Asperger syndrome, who all six unanimously agreed the POV tag was unwarranted and worked towards incorporating Sitadel's concerns. Because of ongoing off-Wiki canvassing, this article is going to need extra eyes. (I notified Eubulies and MastCell they had been mentioned here.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little unsure of your problem here. I found this on the talk page of AS.

I'll second what Colin has said, and add that the material proposed by Sitadel (talk · contribs) is sourceable and relevant. There will inevitably be some back-and-forth about how to present the sources most accurately, but no one is out to get anyone and I think all of the people who have commented here (including Sitadel) share the goal of making this a better article, so let's work from there. One point of Colin's that deserves special reinforcement is that on an article like this, which has been the subject of extensive discussion and collaboration, it's often best to come directly to the talk page if one of your edits has been reverted, and discuss it. Often that will lead to a solution everyone's happy with, whereas reinserting the material without coming here just gets everyone worked up. MastCell ^Talk 18:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This does not sound like they are opposed to the content you are trying to add. I'm not sure this is the best place for your question. I'd suggest you need to work with the user on the talk page to reach a consensus, at least give it a week. Then possibly go for mediation. David D. (Talk) 05:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, Mastcell has not been a problem, and on second thought I shdn't list him here. The problem is, specifically, I have not been allowed to add a POV tag even tho everybody admits a POV debate is in progress. It has been reverted 3 times now. What's that tag for, again? Perhaps the reader would like to join this discussion.

I have not been allowed to edit the article, my material was removed within 24 hours, despite the quality of the sources.

I appreciate Mastcell's invitation to discussion, but honestly - if i don't have the right to place a POV tag on an article undergoing a POV discussion, nor the right to add two sentences citing neurological studies in medical literature - if i must advocate for these very unsubtle and basic things - what can I expect to come out of a week-long debate?

In any case, my problem is with what has occurred, not what is about to occur. I do welcome MastCell's comment and reiterate I have no real complaint against him. Sitadel (talk) 07:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(afterthought) It is easy to forget (I have sometimes forgotten) that wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy. Six 'regular editors do not trump a newb. It's policy that matters, and opposing points of view should find comprises within policy. It is precisely the tension of disagreements that improve an article, by highlighting controversy and illucidating all sides.

But all views must be given an equal chance. I am not allowed to edit the article, yet the opposing editors are making hourly edits. I am not allowed to add a POV tag, even tho a POV tag was added by SandyGeorgia some months ago when she wished to introduce changes. The prevailing group of editors demand concessions they themselves refuse to offer.

Long story short, one editor cannot demand a POV tag be removed, and cannot summarily delete well-sourced contributions. Sitadel (talk) 08:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If everyone is aware there is a POV problem I wouldn't worry about the tag. Just try and reach a compromise on the talk page and then add the text. I imagine the reason your edits are being reverted is that you are not close to a compromise yet. If the topic is controversial it is quite normal to workout the text on the talk page, or even a subpage, before adding it to the article. David D. (Talk) 07:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The reader is not aware there is a POV problem. Perhaps the reader would like to participate in the discussion! Sitadel (talk) 08:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well if you get it sorted out fast enough there would be no need. Do you imagine this will be a long protracted fight? It will if you spend a lot of time here. As far as I can tell there is nothing unusual about just getting the job done without tags. It's not like the article is wrong, its just an absense of another view. How long do you thjink it will take? David D. (Talk) 08:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I just went to the talk page to see what is slowing down the process.

Sitadel - this has been discussed before, you are pulling information from the archives which has already been dealt with - in some cases, twice. The page requires new information, because we've already dealt with this. Three times as of 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC) As SG said, much of this would be good in the HFA page, which is quite bare of content and has I think only 3 soures. HFA does not equal AS. I'm reaching the point of asperity. WLU (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you don't have a case for the material you want to add, that would be why they are removing the POV tag, there is consensus against your additions. You need to work closely with Mastcell since he clearly saw an the need for some content to give more balance and might be able to craft something with you that has appropriate sources for the AS topic. David D. (Talk) 08:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>I am one of the 'orrible editors who threatened Sitadel. Though actually, the threat which we (myself and SandyGeorgia) made was to point out the WP:3RR in case Sitadel attempted to replace the POV tag three times in one day after multiple editors removed it. It is not a threat since neither I nor Sandy are admins, so we can't block someone. And we have pointed out to Sitadel, possibly to the point of exhaustion, that on wikipedia, high-functioning autism, autism and Asperger syndrome are not the same thing. The references Sitadel pulled out of the archives were all about HFA, autism or general autistic spectrum disorders, and therefore not appropriate or specific enough for the Asperger page, which is a featured article. And as I am quoted as saying above, these very articles have been dealt with repeatedly (thrice now), with exactly the same arguments and comments from both sides. The one RS discussing advantages of AS in processing fine-grained details is on the page (though it is specific to the autism spectrum rather than AS, and therefore a stretch to include it) is included here. WLU (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed the comment about the 'right to disappear'. I understand the right to disappear, but if it's official, if you really disappear (as opposed to merely leaving the project or simply not editing anymore), then do you have the right to come back under a new identity whenever you feel like it? User:Zeraeph recently invoked her right to vanish during an arbitration hearing. I believe that the right to unvanish should be made publicly and at least in Z's case, through the arbitration committee. If it's a matter of ceasing to edit, then no RTV is needed. If it's a true RTV, and involves admin, bureaucrat or something other than simply abandoning an account, then my opinion is that the right to unvanish should happen through some sort of official channel. Otherwise, my opinion is it's not the right to vanish/unvanish, it's just sockpuppeting. WLU (talk) 12:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel is not Zeraeph (talk · contribs), IMO. Sitadel is, however, posting and revisiting exact text well discussed multiple times in archives that has been spread across at least three autism activist websites by other former editors posting on websites with Zeraeph, who was in regular e-mail contact with at least two other former AS editors. Canvassing on the autism articles is and will remain an issue. ([45][46][47][48]) Extra eyes will always be needed; we added {{recruiting}} to the talk page. Sitadel's list of sources has been covered over ... and over ... and over. The sources are either not about Asperger syndrome and/or have been refuted by other more reliable sources, and every other editor (at least seven now) who has looked at them has come to the same conclusion. Nonetheless, we worked in one of Sitadel's points even though it's a stretch to include the info non-specific to Asperger's, and even though we then had to add the refuting text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) speculation on who I am in real life is inappropriate here.

David, I will take you up on your suggestion to work with MastCell. I must point out the following tho,

a)Most of those sources did not receive a syllable of discussion in Talk. They were ignored. You can check this for yourself.

b)We cannot argue - ever - that sources have "already been dealt with in Talk." It is wikipedia's very heart and soul that new people come along, or existing people take up interests in new topics. WikiPolicy nowhere mentions that sources may be dismissed because they have already been discussed in the past.

c)SandyGeorgia's repeated mention of off-wiki canvassing and of Zaraeph has no bearing on the issues i present here, and serves only to besmirch my good-faith. She has presented no proof that I have engaged in off-wiki canvassing, have been off-wiki canvassed, or that I am a user avoiding a ban (I am none of those things.)

These assertions are unfounded, untrue and ultimately irrelevant. Sitadel (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel, you are misreading my post; please assume good faith. Readers unfamiliar with the situation could have been left with the impression from the previous post that you are Zeraeph; I clarified for your protection and specifically to avoid your name being besmirched. I have not said you canvassed or that you are avoiding a ban; I have said you brought back (verbatim, I believe) text that is spread across three off-Wiki sites. That this article suffers because of off-Wiki canvassing can't be ignored, and is a legitimate ANI issue (content disputes aren't usually in ANI territory). And every point/source that you raised was discussed on talk, addressed, dealt with and even incorporated in one case. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

assume good faith ? I did not bring those sources 'back' from 3 off-wiki sites, that list was pulled from the Talk archives of that article right here on wikipedia. If I had, it wouldn't matter. Sources are sources. They do not become invalidated by appearing elsewhere, nor by previous discussion. This speculation on your part is untrue, Ad hominem and irrelevant. Please find an appropriate forum in which to discuss them.

I'd like to remind the spectator that all of this was brought on by my introduction of three well-sourced sentences and a POV tag. Sitadel (talk) 18:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I am completely indifferent to your real life identity, but I am interested in your previous wiki-identities because (as in the case of Zeraeph) some people, not accounts but people, have been banned from editing wikipedia; it is a person that is banned, not an account, which is why sockpuppeting is considered a bad thing. I would say that this is a polysyllabic discussion of every single source you ressurected from the archive. Sources can be dismissed now, if they were dismissed previously and no new reasons have arisen to reconsider them. They were rejected now for the same reasons they were rejected in the past. The problem isn't new people bringing up new points, it's new people (possibly, I've still not had confirmed or denied if Sitadel was one of the individuals who brought up these points in the past, like User:CeilingCrash or User:Species8471 or any of the various anon IPs who were present in past discussions of this issue) bringing up the same points. Sandy's saying that someone is engaging in off-wiki canvassing, and that is why we may expect multiple people coming to the page on this point. As I've said before, new information and studies that support your point will be added to the page, but right now there is little to verify that Asperger syndrome is accompanied by advantages (beyond the one already noted in the page, though it is a stretch as the source appears to discuss the autistic spectrum rather than Asperger specifically). Wikipedia includes verifiable information, not truth; right now the opinion that AS can be beneficial in some areas is not verifiable, though it may be true. WLU (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)The polysyllabic discussion, [49] mentioned above is one day old, at about the time i posted this notice. I didn't take part in that discussion, I was busy here. Now you're saying "it's been discussed, done deal." Honestly this is sophistry that fails the "laugh test." Sitadel (talk) 22:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Legal threat on Talk:Serio

After the page on a Chicano rapper named Serio was deleted at AfD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Serio), an anonymous editor left a legal threat here, stating that she wishes to seek legal action if Serio's page is not undeleted, due to the fact that "it tends that over half of the Chicano Rappers pages have been deleted... Some of which are very known artists and have had heavy radio rotation." User goes on to say "Please place his article back or he will do whatever it takes we have already contacted the office in Florida and are trying to resolve this without action. We are aware of the policies of Wikipedia and know how it works. However we will move forward to see that all Mexican American Rap Artists are treated fairly on the English Wikipedia site and that authors or admins are correct in their judgment and not bias towards are people especially Serio." I am not sure of what office in Florida she has contacted, but this nonetheless sounds very serious. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 06:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The office in Florida, the editor is talking about, I assume, was our former HQ in St. Petersburg. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

There was a very similar case, as I recall, in which Fark.com was ordered to link to a particular news story which was, in the words of Antonin Scalia writing for the six justice majority, "clearly cool". I hope the Foundation's prepared to pay its lawyers overtime on this one. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 06:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It turns out that the very same IP created a page on the Spanish Wikipedia about this subject. It also has been blocked three times relating to this matter. And there's sockpuppetry as well. I'd recommend a long term block as they clearly don't understand the purpose of Wikipedia. MER-C 07:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Page containing threat deleted per CSD G8. —Kurykh 07:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I blocked the user for a month per WP:NLT, of course I'm willing to reconsider the block if the threat is withdrawn. As a side note I'm somewhat skeptical about the user's claim, she says that she has connections with the rapper but a few months ago this same address wrote this on the article's talk page: "Please don't remove page serio is my favorite rapper I am a huge fan and all my friends listen to him at my school. He is the best rapper I have heard in a long time. Thanks Wikipedia for having him on here. Sincerley, Hector Suarez" its everyone decision to make but the options are either a school age fan or part of Serio's legal team, and to be honest my opinion is inclining towards the first. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

She actually claims to be an employee of his record label, not a member of his legal team; it's plausible that someone from his record label would have posed as a fan to try to make him look more credible than he is. Or it's possible that both posts were by Serio himself.

But in any event, you're all taking this much too seriously. This whole incident is hilarious. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If you follow the entire history, and the AFD itself, the entire situation is like a bad rash that won't go away. Rlevse was around and is familiar with it. Most of the puppet rings includes User:63.224.213.47, User:67.185.23.74‎, User:Serio1, User:Serio2, User:Serio3 and include "official" letters from his self-owned publisher/basement/whatever. PHARMBOY (TALK) 19:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Further commentary by one of the socks here. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 20:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Matt Sanchez evading 1 year Arbcom block

Resolved

 – Ban-evading sock blocked, no further administrator action necessary. Sandstein (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

See Special:Contributions/matthewsanchez. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 08:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This actually should go at arbitration enforcement.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and blocked, since it seems pretty unambiguous. Is that an error on my part? – Luna Santin (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Matt was not "evading" a ban. He left one comment on my talk. Why the rush? John Vandenberg (talk) 09:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

He wasn't? Editing on Wikipedia is a violation of the ban. So what do you call it? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 09:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The "comment" in question was an untruth in an attempt to purge his photo from his article page. A clear violation of his block. --Eleemosynary (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm beginning to see a lynch mob here, and it's not a pretty sight. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Fut.Perf., I am guessing that that comment is aimed (at least in part) at me. For the record, other than talk pages, I have not communicated with any other editor before making a report to WP:AE. What about WP:AGF? Jay*Jay (talk) 11:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Banned means no editing, at all. Not by the banned account, a sock, future or past accounts, nor IP thereof. Why is that difficult to understand? From the ban policy: "no longer welcome" and "bans apply to the person and not the account." — Rlevse • Talk • 11:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This is, I feel, way over the top. The guy has an article here at Wikipedia and he is entitled to ensure that it complies with the relevant policies, such as WP:BLP, VP:V et al. Yeah, he is evading a ban, but sadly, but it's down to a lack of foresight by the Arbcom people. Nudge him towards OTRS and we'll see what we can do, without Matt violating an oh so precious year long ban. Nick (talk) 11:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Enforcing ArbCom-sanctioned bans is not over the top at all. Being banned means no editing, period. If the ArbCom would have wanted to allow exceptions from the ban, they would have said so. Sandstein (talk) 12:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure. The point is just the big fuss that's being made about it. A banned user makes a single posting on the talk page of the admin who blocked him earlier. Even if formally a breach of the rules, it was something that was evidently not meant to be deceptive, disruptive, etc. The default assumption is that the admin will quietly deal with it, and that's it. Instead, we get a horde of people screaming and shouting with wild accusations, forum-shopping in half a dozen places, carrying the fuss over to commons and whatnot. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

What screaming and shouting, or wild accusations, or forum-shopping have you come across? Natalie (talk) 15:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Banned means banned. Period. It's not a big fuss, you're the one making a fuss, FutPerf. Banned does NOT mean "if it's a minor edit and I think it's okay, it is okay". It means no editing at all. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside the issue of who might or might not be "making a fuss", I do agree that banned editors should not be permitted to edit the Pedia whatsoever. If they have an issue, they must use the Wikipedia:OTRS. — Satori Son 12:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

When a banned user is himself or herself the subject of a mainspace article that he or she wishes to comment on, a difficult situation is created, which is one of the reasons that bans should be a last resort in these among other types of cases. Unfortunately, in this instance the user conduct was egregious, continuous, and really left little choice (and note this user is community banned and ArbCom banned). Someone should again steer the user in the direction of OTRS, and after a reasonable time a lifting of the ban can be requested through the ArbCom mailing list, although the committee would certainly need a major assurance that the problematic activity would not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Compare with WP:NPA. The policy means no personal attacks, at all. Yet when a personal attack actually happens, what is the appropriate response? Usually to ignore it. A violation of policy is a violation of policy, but does not necessarily result in blocks, long threads on AN/I, etc. Or compare with 3RR. What do you usually do? If it's a few hours in the past, a first offense etc. you just do nothing usually, I think. I suggest just letting the admin in question handle this. (What's IAR for?) --Coppertwig (talk) 02:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have made a suggestion on the ArbCom discussion page here offering a potential way for blocked editors to be able to comment in a non-disruptive way on articles of which they are the subject. Comment is welcomed there, as it is an issue for ArbCom to consider, not one calling for admin action. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible copyright violations

• Traveller2020 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has uploaded a number of photos from http://flickr.com/photos/traveller2020/ . Unfortunately, some are untagged and the Flickr page says all rights reserved, which contradicts the CC-BY-2.5 assertion made on some of the images (example | local copy). I've asked him to clarify the licensing info and/or email OTRS, but the problem is that he hasn't edited for 6 months... MER-C 12:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sent him (assuming it is him, of course) a "flickrmail", copying most of the text of what you've written on his talk page, MER-C. He last uploaded to Flickr a few days ago, so he's more likely to see it there, I hope. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 12:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, he has replied affirming that the licence is correct on Flickr and the images on Wikipedia should be deleted. I can forward the mail to anyone who would like to see it. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 13:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If he is, in fact, the same person as this user, this is an attempt to revoke a license that he released the pictures under. —Random832 13:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Any with no tags will have to go, as the Flickr copyright statement trumps the information we have. But CC-BY/GFDL assertion is irrevocable, no matter what he puts elsewhere, and if he tagged them here as freely licensed, then freely licensed they are. But just the ones he uploaded, not the bigger versions on Flickr. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, any untagged ones have been deleted and the rest have valid CC-BY or GFDL/CC tags. The only exception is Image:ATTPlaza.jpg, where the tag was removed on 1 February by an IP and replaced with "All Rights Reserved". I've taken the liberty of reverting the IP. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

None heared me before, but if you could, please block this disruptive socks!

I am moving this post to WP:SSP. Jehochman ^Talk 15:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mrschimpf and Gladys j cortez

These guys think ACMEMan is Gsnguy. Thats a lie!!! ACMEMan is a good editor! Gsnguy is a very bad editor!! Eartha Brute (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• • Oh look. I came here to post that an individual by the name of Judge Jones had decided to make his user page a "courtroom" against me and another user, and what do I find? An entirely "third" user, this charming soul, has already done my work for me, albeit in a slightly-different form than I'd planned. I'll be ducking over to WP:RFCU now...this looks fairly cut-and-dried to me. (If you take a look at my talk page, I think you'll see what a tempest in a teapot this is....sorry for the bother.)(Oh, and by the way, AcmeGSNEarthaJones, you're supposed to post at the BOTTOM when making a report. Just a thought. Moving this there....)Gladys J Cortez 13:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(Moved, formatting and spelling intact, from the top of the page where it didn't belong.)

Judge Jones (talk · contribs) and Eartha Brute (talk · contribs) both blocked permanently for harassment. Instant response: this and this, leading to an instant permanent block of James Bond3232 (talk · contribs) as well. Neat. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And James Bond3232a (talk · contribs), too. Fun! ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 14:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I go to sleep early for one night :-P...Anyways, I was not saying for sure these accounts were related in my conversations about the subject with Gladys and on WP:TVS, I was saying they may be related. However with last night's funny business around these accounts I'm ready to confirm they are all related. I got an email this morning saying I had a password change which was probably initiated by one of these accounts using the forgotten password feature, which didn't work because that new password (which I can assure you will NOT be activated) only goes to my private email address. The similarities between all of these accounts is obvious if you look at each of their histories; one of them had tried to put a block template on my talk page, when I can assure you I've never come close to one since I avoid tenous edit wars all I can. Thank you Gladys and Redvers for coming to my aid in my absence, you both did a great job containing all of this hassle. Nate • (chatter) 22:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Redvers, thanks as always. That reaction on your talk page was teh zexy--clearly, this user is very "special". But as I said to Nate--at least now, having had an attack page created against me and having had to file an RFCU, I can say with pride that I'm a REAL Wikipedian!! Gladys J Cortez 22:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Y'all can mark this one resolved--the RFCU came back quacktacular. Again, sorry for the kerfuffle. Gladys J Cortez 01:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:CambridgeBayWeather Wikistalking User:MoralVictor

Pretty clearcut case exposed by the contributions up to 14:41 : [50]. Earnestly desired that you might give that editor an etiquette check talking to about this and take other appropriate action. Seems to be a serial-reverter causing problems for actual contributors. Thanking you in advance, Upheld (talk) 15:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Upheld appears to be a sock of user:MoralVictor, sent request to look into this at WP:SSP. Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Upheld, if you are going to run sockpuppets I suggest that you remember which account you are using. It was your edits I reverted not MoralVictor. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocking request User:206.126.170.20

Just warned for adding unsourced material, looking back at his/her talk page, this user has a history of vandalism and has been blocked in the past. Another block is in order.--Rtphokie (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a shared IP and has made only 1 edit in the past 6 days, so I don't think a block is in order quite yet. If the IP continues editing disruptively, then I'd suggest a rapidly escalating series of warnings (given its history) and reporting to WP:AIV, in which case a block will be forthcoming. MastCell ^Talk 17:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Suttonplacesouth

Believe this is a clear-cut case of a user who is continuing to reinsert lengthy POV content in article via IPs after an "informal final" warning. The first IP was blocked at WP:AIV but another admin referred me here. Requesting appropriate blocks on user and other IP, as well as a check on the IP range for similar activity. Please read all 6 links. Full report was:

• Suttonplacesouth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and
• 71.222.23.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and
• 71.222.27.3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) See [51] (borderline vandalism) followed by clear-cut [52] and [53]. Also these warnings. Identity of user with IPs is obvious by edit contents. Please check the IP range for similar activity and let me know what happens. John J. Bulten (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Cyrus111 making a mess again

Unresolved incident resubmitted because the user came back to insert [54] his undue stuff again without any intention to resolve the disagreement per TALK. Quote:

This user tries to revive Aryans and does not mind to use false references to fill Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA) (and reinsert stubbornly) with WP:UNDUE gibberish:

[55].

Moreover, he tries to put material together in a way that constitutes original research (WP:SYNTH), even though he does not manage for the "simple" reason that his sourced references don't support his claims for a bit. This is POV-pushing and in violation of WP:NOR. To be sure, this does not have anything to do with a justified encyclopedic compilation using proper quotes. One example of this abuse of sources out of three:

• His own quote "The Kurgan's thesis is the predominant model of Indo-European origins and likely the origin of the spread of R1a and R1a1." he sourced with Mallory (1989:185). Apart from the very one-sided inaccuracy of the first part of this statement, Mallory was absolutely agnostic of the gene R1a1 in 1989.

I don't know yet what policy he is violating by putting references around his claims using quotes that don't match, still this looks a pretty serious violation of something.

1. An assessment to the abuse of his sourced references you'll find at Talk:Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#Iran_and_Central_Asia
2. We also had discussions here:[56]
3. And also here: [57]

Please do something, because nothing works to make him stop.

Rokus01 (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a content dispute? It looks like one, and it is not for Administrator attention (Administrators cannot weigh in on content disputes with their various tools). If it is, then see dispute resolution. Looking at that, I suggest a request for comment. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

An improper RfA

Could someone please take a look at this interesting RfA by a novice editor, where the only support would appear to be a cunning little bit of sockpuppetry. It hasn't been properly formatted, so isn't appearing at WP:RFA, but when / if it did, I have no doubt WP:SNOW would apply. Can it be snipped in the bud? Or does it have go through the motions? gb ^{(t, c)} 18:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought that name looked familiar. See the differently-capitalized Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/mr kc, which I snow-closed a month ago. (on a tangent, actual capitalization should be "/Mr kc".) Since it isn't transcribed, I'd suggest a talk with the editor on his talk page about how RfA's work before he does transcribe it. --barneca (talk) 18:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll delete it as a improperly formed duplicate if there are no objections. Rudget. 18:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

OK - I've left a message suggesting he {{db-author}} it, and pointed him at WP:SOCK. I have no objection to it being deleted, of course. I think, given it's a newbie and the principles of WP:BITE, it can probably be left at this stage (but I'll keep a cursory eye on his contributions). gb ^{(t, c)} 18:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably the best actions as of now. Diligence at work. :) Rudget. 18:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible edit-war

Hi, I was recently banned so I took a break and haveing been said that, I feel I should ask for help before it escalates. Here's the situation, I've been trying to edit on an article and I provided a reference in the form of a narrative from the video game itself, but there seems to be some people who don't feel I can interpret the narratives portrayals. I do believe the below adheres to my right to contribute to Wikipedia. Anyway, here's the page: [58]

"Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event.[3] Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims.[4][5] Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." InternetHero (talk) 19:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The short version is, you personally are not a secondary source but rather an agent of original research. Find an appropriately published secondary source with the game narrative and you may have something to work with -- though simply having a source is not itself a guarantee that the material is suitable for inclusion (I make no judgment either way here). — Lomn 21:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User editing another's 3RR report

My attention was called to this series of edits by User:G2bambino. It appears that he changed another user's 3RR report to one against that user. There may be more to this and I don't have the time to look into this now. I initially blocked G2bambino for 3 days but I am not 100% sure that this is the correct action, therefore I'm looking for someone else to check into it. Stifle (talk) 22:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Some background might be useful. I blocked G2bambino on 2 Feb for his 7 or 8th 3rr violation and made it 2 weeks given his long history of edit warring. I subsequently unblocked him after extracting a promise of 1RR for the remaining period of the original block. I saw the report at AN3 and asked him what it was about and was told that it was in retaliation for the report he had raised against the other editor and when I checked back on AN3 the state of the page (as apparantly edited by G2b) reflected this. Given this and what appeared to be a disruptive and vexatious report plus a pretty empty request for arbitration that has been turned down I blocked the other user for harrassment. I was suprised that G2b didn't seem bothered by this and went away to think. I realised that I had overreacted and unblocked the other user with a warning not to harrass again. They subsequently contacted myself and Stifle to advise of the altered report and here we are. I confess that I'm somewhat bemused by what has gone on (its late here and I have been up since 6am). I can't make head of tail of the diffs provided myself but would appreciate another admin thoroughly reviewing the situation. I apologise publically for issuing an incorrect and imperfectly considered block against the other user and can only throw myself on the mercy of the court for this. I recuse myself from further activity with either user. I should say that I have found G2b a very intractable user and I would personally suggest that, should further action beyond Stifle's block be considered, a decent sized block be imposed. I'm very disappointed that having given G2b a lifeline from his block that he goes and does something like this. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sad, then, that you should cast a judgement on me when you clearly have no clue what went on and have taken one user's story completely at face value. In fact, Soulscanner is the instigator - perhaps accidentally, perhaps not - of all this. The process of events were as follows:

• I made a report against Soulscanner. 04:48, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then, in retaliation, made a report against me. 05:03, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then removed the report I made against him. 05:05, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then made a duplicate report against me. 08:08, 7 February 2008
• I then fixed one of Soulscanner's duplicate reports back to the way mine was before he deleted it, leaving his in place untouched. 16:52, 7 February 2008

Another fine example of Wikpedia justice in action. --G2bambino (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Why don't you just wait until an untired admin with time to wade through this responds? I may have misjudged this (in which case you will get an apology). How about you cut me some slack for being tired now and accept that everyone is human. I haven't seen any justice dished out just yet; stifle unblocked you to get this looked at. I have taken no admin action against you. You must admit its a mess. I'm going to bed. Night all. Spartaz ^Humbug! 23:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine, fair enough; but I ask the exact same of you. As I'm sure you're aware, events before this had already left me wondering about my continued participation in Wikipedia. But then this person comes along and files a spurious RfA regarding my "behaviour," creates a bogus 3RR report against me for a page I haven’t edited in months, and now has gone from page to page to page to page screeching about this supposed crime, which is just a mess that his mistake caused in the first place! I'd also say being swiftly blocked for three days was indeed judicial. Needless to say, my patience has worn very thin, and I apologise if it's showing too clearly. --G2bambino (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalizing Administrators board

I accept Spartaz's apology. It is not his fault. He assumed good faith, which is what Wikipedia is all about. He blocked me because he sincerely thought I was harassing G2bambino with specious claims. Spartaz has been the victim of a rather crude scam. When you see something on an Administrators board, you assume that people won't have the audacity and time to vandalize it and deliberately misrepresent other people's posts. Spartaz has the right to be angry, and I think I do too. He has been suckered into abusing his priveledges, and I've been the victim of the scam. The facts can be discerned by simply examining 2 key posts at the history page of the 3RR board.

• I originally posted 2 reports of G2bambino and 1 of is associate Quizimodo who had twice indulged in tag team edit warring with my posts to circumvent 3RR rules. Administrator Stifle issued warning decisions imploring them to cease. This link documents the situation before G2bambino began altering my posts. . You will see my 3 reports on the bottom of the page. Administrator [User:Stifle|Stifle] issued warnings to G2bambino and Quizimodo (Please see link to verify.)
• G2bambino then altered my first report on him to make it appear like his report against me. He then suggested that my second post (refering to a previously unreported edit war in October similar to yesterday's edit war) was in retaliation against his make-believe post. (please see link) Spartaz read it, and issued a block against me. He did this with no warning. He then later reconsidered and undid the block. I figured out what was going on by carefully examining the history page, reported this to him, he apologized, and I accepted (actually, even before he apologized). It was a malicious and willful attempt to get me blocked. He has vandalized an Administrator board in pursuit of a personal vendetta, and victimized an Administrator who was simply assuming good faith.

I warn you that he will probably alter this post, arguing with the facts, hurl personal insults, and render this discussion impossible to follow. This has been his way ina ll his dealings with me. He has driven many editors into exasperation and fatigue with such tactics. I urge you to block him until Administrators can verify the facts presented here. --soulscanner (talk) 00:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Your actions, and mine, are clearly spelled out in the edit summary of the 3RR notice board; I have highlighted the specific ones above. Your conspiracy theories are well known, but let's see what others have to say about your actions over the past two days. --G2bambino (talk) 00:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In chronological order, edits to WP:3RRN with respect to User:Soulscanner and User:G2bambino, oldest first:

• soulscanner
• soulscanner
• G2bambino
• soulscanner
• soulscanner <- soulscanner removes G2bambino's report
• G2bambino
• soulscanner
• soulscanner
• G2bambino <- Appears to be the offending edit
• G2bambino
• G2bambino
• G2bambino
• G2bambino
• G2bambino
• G2bambino

I'll let others decide on what to do here. x42bn6 Talk Mess 00:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, for god's sake, I see what's happened now.

• I made a report against Soulscanner. 04:48, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then made a report against me. 05:03, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then deleted the report I made against him with the edit summary "Removing duplicate post." 05:05, 7 February 2008
• Soulscanner then made another different report against me. 08:08, 7 February 2008
• I then altered Soulscanner's report from 05:03, 7 February 2008, not seeing it was actually different to his report of 08:08, 7 February 2008, and thinking it was the duplicate that Soulscanner had intended to remove when deleting my report against him.

I think that clarifies what happened; I made a mistake in not reading Soulscanner's two near-identical and concecutive reports carefully enough, and I apologise. But it leaves me wondering: why did Soulscanner delete my report against him in the first place? --G2bambino (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Noted. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Holy cow, you're right. Oh man, I'm so sorry. I remember now. I thought your post was my duplicate post. Oh, I feel stupid. What a waste of time. I apologize to everyone here. --soulscanner (talk) 01:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked or not blocked?

I'm not sure how this works...

Yesterday my bot SatyrBot (talk · contribs) started doing stuff I didn't like and wouldn't shut down. So I blocked it. I've gone in and cleaned up the code and put in an emergency shut-off valve (so I don't have to block anymore), and un-blocked it. If I log in as the bot, I can edit. But when I tell the bot to run on its server, it can't - and it has an autoblock error. Is there something blocking the IP address the bot's server runs on? How do I test that and/or remove it?

Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• I cleared the autoblock. Try it now. Next time try blocking with autoblock off. I'm too tired to explain how to find autoblocks when the tool is down (seems like months) but drop me a note on my talk page if you are interested and I'll explain how. If you feel like doing a favour in return, please feel free to sort out the mess in the preceding section.  :). Now I'm really off to bed. Spartaz ^Humbug! 23:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - that seems to have cleared it. I can't promise I can clear up the above nearly as quickly :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

PS the TS is back up, but with ugly replag for s1, and worse replag for s3 :( – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 02:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:VoABot II

User:VoABot II just reverted my edits to Jerry Hall where I added several references substantiating that Jerry Hall and Grace Jones shared an apartment together. This was hardly spam! 64.122.14.55 (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

A blog is not a reliable source. bibliomaniac15 23:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Bubbamickmac

Is this edit worth keeping this user around? -[59] - I gave them a level one vandalism warning, but I'm thinking it should have been stronger. Corvus cornix_talk 23:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems like the sort of fella who never lasts long. Lawrence § t/e 23:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This user should get, at a minimum, a 36 hour block. This should happen just about anytime anyone has demonstrated they are here to attack editors (add:esp. when it can be ascertained to be personal, and dragged over to wiki from real life). If they come back from that and do it again, indef block the account. R. Baley (talk) 00:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 00:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The editor who was being attacked has a user name which appears to coincide with "Northern Highlands High School". Sounds like somebody he knows. Corvus cornix_talk 00:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That just makes it worse, and I am monitoring the situation. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 00:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

31 hour block issued for Bubbamickmac. Vsmith (talk) 00:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Backlog on WikiProject on open proxies

The WikiProject on open proxies has a large backlog that needs clearing. If any admins are looking for a task to do, your presence is requested on this page. Thanks! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 00:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Bear

Resolved

Can an admin please fix the page moves on Bear? Thanks. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

HELP

Resolved

Camel HOW COME Camel does not show?????

Camelus dromedarius, Wadi Rum,Jordan.

HELP--Goon Noot (talk) 01:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You appear to have fixed it. Awesome camel, by the way. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It does show.--Hu12 (talk) 01:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

3RR violator continuing after block

156.110.42.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked for 3RR after continually adding the same list of facts over and over. The instant their block expired, they immediately continued. I think a sterner warning and a longer block would be appropriate. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 04:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Except they haven't reverted anything? I don't see where a second 3RR block is needed here, since there's not even one revert by the user since the block expired. Could you explain the problem in more detail, so that we can see what's up? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I should have outlined more diffs. This user reinserted the same material a total of ten times before the article was protected and he was blocked. His block just ended and he simply restored it again. He's also reverted again since I reported this. He never responds to warnings on his talk pages, instead just using edit summaries as he reverts. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 04:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Relentless Accusations of Plagiarism, Need Assistance

Editor Cfrito persists in accusing me of plagiarism. This is a harsh accusation to hurl, not to mention reputation threatening. I have reviewed the complaint and found it absurd at face value. Not only have I not plagiarized, Cfrito has not even depicted plagiarism yet he keeps making his accusation. I have marked some of this editor's instances of hurling this accusation against me. At this link administrators can find his first allegation of plagiarism. At this link is found his second allegation of plagiarism. At this link you will find his third allegation of plagiarism against my person. At this link you will find my warning for him to cease the allegation of plagairism. At the following link administrators can see that he persists in his allegation. Cfrito’s reputation damaging accusation must end, or else someone needs to show me where I have plagiarized. I appreciate assistance.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 04:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Zenwhat blocked indefinitely

I have blocked Zenwhat (talk · contribs) for what seems to be a bizarre pattern of disruption - odd "joke" edits such as [60], adding provocative discussion to Jimbo's talk page when Jimbo has nothing to do with it at all, edit warring with other users on their talk pages, making POINTy userspace pages that have been repeatedly speedied, among many others; all with very contribution to building our encyclopedia. Others have tried to reason with/warn him, such as at User talk:Zenwhat#Your purpose here and User talk:Zenwhat#Only warning, but it really just seems like he's only here for general disruption and trolling of the project and its community. I think it's clear that the community is at the end of its rope with him, and I have blocked him indefinitely; I welcome any further review or comments from the community. krimpet✽ 04:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

About time someone stopped the trolling. β^_command 04:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and endorse indef block. I think we've had enough. - Rjd0060 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully support this block. I also posted to Zenwhat's talk page recently here; seems no amount of hinting is getting through to an obviously intelligent editor. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecX2):From what I can tell of the timeline, his only edit after the final warning was a reasonable discussion of "the Register" article on Jimbo's talk page which in itself isn't reason for block. Granted some of his edits have been "weird", he hasn't done anything block worthy after the mentioned final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 04:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This was an older one. I had been musing on what to do myself - [61]....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Might be a little abrupt, but sometimes enough is enough. RxS (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block per these edits: "inclusionism the force of evil," "inclusionism and deletionism are evil," [62], [63], "The inclusionist cabal," [64], [65], and [66]. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 04:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All of which happened before his final warning.. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 04:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been expecting this block for a while. Yes, there's a chance that he'll behave better if someone unblocks him, but more likely, he'll just be re-indef'd in two weeks or so. --Carnildo (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"For instance, I assume that your constructive PETA and WP:V are just a cover for your anti-Libyan POV pushing. " Joking or not, that's trolling. Endorse the block. — DarkFalls ^talk 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Been watching it since this [67]. Endorse the block, trolling needs to stop.--Ѕandahl 04:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with the block, it just seems so sudden, from the look of his talk page the user was discussing about a warning concerning his behavior shortly before being blocked, perhaps it would have been wise to let that discussion continue (since he only edited mainspace once after it was started) or at least issuing a shorter block before the indef. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly oppose this block - Zenwhat's mostly meta-editing, and a lot of it's silly, but very little of it crosses the line into truly disruptive.

Mostly or entirely meta-editing is an issue, which has been held to be something which isn't good and needs to be corrected. Crossing the line with silly stuff has also been held to be a problem.

But this block fails to AGF and fails to give the type of clear warnings and good-faith efforts to work with the user to correct problematic behavior that we expect.

I am strongly inclined to unblock. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You make a reasonable case, I think. From the support for the block it sound like many people find him annoying, but this in itself isn't reason for an indef block. Maybe people with serious concerns about his editing would consider an RFC? An indef block is a harsh step if other dispute resolution avenues have not yet been explored. Friday (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How are edits like this not disruptive? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also done before his final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 05:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's disruptive (on the disruptive side of being silly, but disruptive). No warning, no shorter block, straight to indef because of this? This exceeds the tolerance band for "exhausted community patience". Failure to provide adequate feedback to problem users and adequate opportunity for reform is a massive failure of administrator good faith. Mentor? Sure. Shorter block? Sure. Warnings? Definitely. Indef right now? I am wondering if it's necessary to file an arbcom case. Hopefully both the community and Krimpet see reason and adjust response accordingly.

If all he does for the next month, after being properly warned and helped and talked to and shorter blocked, is more disruption, then I stand aside. Lacking those efforts... this is wrong, here and now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I endorse this block from the diffs provided and my interactions with the user. Lara❤Love 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)I've encountered Zenwhat on various pages and generally found his comments to usually be somewhere between comically strange and trolling. Unfortunately his comments have been mostly toward the latter lately. I endorse this block. Mr.Z-man 05:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would advocate that an unblock be applied only if he is mentored, otherwise remain blocked. I might be biased, as I have only seen the more negative sides of him, but the mere existence of blatantly POINTy requests and actions and trolling over an extended period of time is too poignant to ignore. AGF does not mean we don't react if we keep getting slapped in the face. —Kurykh 05:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

An indefinite block is extreme overkill. Blocking itself is a last resort, and indef. blocking even more so. Do shorten this block, per the blocking policy. This user has gotten two blocks in their time here. Is there any reason to believe that a 24 hour block would not suffice? -- Ned Scott 05:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly my point, no other blocks or anything of the sort, just jumping directly to the banhammer seems inappropiate, and I feel that the block was placed to get rid of him because he has a tendency of being "annoying". - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Support block, though uncertain on length of time. Zenwhat has little to no understanding of our basic policies, and even when they are explained, he responds with nothing more than contempt. Here he refers to me as a single purpose account and POV-pusher. There is no doubt in my mind Zenwhat is a reincarnation of a former editor (banned or retired, again I'm not sure) and his edits do nothing to benefit this project. With that said, Zenwhat needs to immediately change his ways, but there is a chance he could be a productive editor if he does so. - auburnpilot talk 05:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, a block is in order, but we shouldn't conclude an indef block yet. -- Ned Scott 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Remember, indefinite doesn't mean infinite; it just means the length of the block hasn't been decided or will be determined by the future actions of the blocked user. Sancho 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I support the indef block given much of what I've seen over the last several weeks. But since I can reasonably guess it'll be shortened, I'd support a namespace ban, no edits to the project space/project talk space for 2 months, excepting Wikipedia:Bots/Status. Possibly extending to other "discussion" spaces, depending on a more detailed examination of his edits. MBisanz ^talk 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think that might be too extreme. Give him a 24 hour, or even a week long block. He's only gotten one other block other than the one he has now. I've come across him in the project talk namespace, and while I thought his comments were a bit off the wall, I didn't consider it disruptive. -- Ned Scott 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Everyone, please do remember that "indefinite" does not mean "infinite," whatever precedent may indicate or imply. An unblock or shortening of the existing block is still on the table. —Kurykh 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd support a shortening of his block to a week or more and then a Wikispace ban after that, besides requests to AIV, RPP, and the like. I think that indef blocking is overkill in this case, but the trolling still warrants a block for a longer period of time. bibliomaniac15 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse the block. The user has been bordeline trolling at the Village Pump for some time; his discussions are unneccesarily provacative. I would support an unblock ONLY under the condition that he receive a ban against all non-article editing. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Would people support a reduction to 48 hours with a further warning? He's had a 24 hour block, for a similar reason, 48 might be a good middle ground for a next step. RxS (talk) 05:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Only if that includes a temporary ban on project space. - auburnpilot talk 05:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The original indef block makes more sense than a reduction to me. _(1 == 2)^Until 05:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well, too bad the blocking policy doesn't think that way. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think he'll get the message enough that we won't need a project space ban. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary limits seem silly. If we believed that the user was interested in stopping the problematic behavior today, then there would be overwhelming support to overturn the block. 48 hours is not a magic number, unless we are in the business of handing out "sentances" for "crimes", and last I checked, that was not part of an admin's job description. Unless the user agrees to abide by a Wikipedia: namespace ban, I don't see where any arbitrarily shortened block would serve any purpose at all. This block is not an attempt to stop an imminently disruptive behavior, this is a chronic problem and deserves a permanent solution. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Our procedure for handling chronic problems is warn, warn, warn, try to mentor, warn, block short period, warn, try to mentor, block longer period, warn, warn, try to mentor, block slightl longer period... and repeat a bunch until indef is the last option left.

If that procedure is followed and at the end of it, Zenwhat remains disruptive, then pull the plug. But this action has unacceptably foreshortened the endgame. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

INdeed. I agree with you 100%. I was questioning the wisdom of a 48 hour block for this. Again, we are not a court system, we don't hand out punishments. One of two things must be true: The user either poses an iminent threat that we need to stop NOW (i.e. edit warring or 3RR), or the user has exhausted the patience of the community and is no longer welcome. The debate should be about unblocking them NOW or leaving it as an indefiniate block. The inbetween stuff is pointless, as it serves no purpose. We're not lawyers working out a plea-bargin here. We're trying to decide if this user poses a net risk to Wikipedia. If they don't, unblock them now. If they do, leave it up indefinately. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think he should be blocked at all, but I figure 48 was something to make those who wanted indef something they could see as reasonable. -- Ned Scott 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm just a bit concerned about the timing of this block relative to the arrival of an article critical of Wikipedia which Zenwhat claimed to have been a (apparently unwitting) part of. Feels like someone felt he borke the first rule of Fight Club Wikipedia. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a link for this? -- Ned Scott 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This link? Endorse shortened block and project space ban. Franamax (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not even 48 hours. His only edit after the final warning, was not a disruptive one and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So he is allowed to disregard all previous warnings, but if he supposedly heeds the final warning, which shouldn't be needed in the first place, he should be unblocked? Every warning should be a final warning. —Kurykh 05:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Say what ???? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No but at least that should have been taken under consideration before blocking, usually blocks are issued when a violation happens after the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecX5): Considering it was given as a final warning, even named as such on his talk page, he shouldn't have been blocked until he violated it. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecXmany) Endorse unblock (with extreme reluctance, because I think it's fair to say that Wikipedia's a more pleasant place without him) for several reasons, primarily those put forward by User:Allstarecho. If he violates his final warning after being unblocked, he should receive escalating blocks. He's just not a clear enough troll to warrant an indef. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Haggling

So, we've got quite a crowd endorsing the indefinite, and a few strongly objecting. How about a week? It's not at all obvious to me that dispute resolution methods short of the indefinite block have been exhausted. Friday (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would rather want a guarantee that he will change and his understanding of what the consequences of another such violation of our policies here will be, rather than an arbitrary block duration that is almost meaningless. —Kurykh 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You can't make someone turn on a dime. Lets ask for reasonable improvement. -- Ned Scott 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat has an unusual contribution history. His very first edit (and 3 subsequent edits) were to his monobook.css file. His fourth was a revert on The Transhumanist's user page. Has anyone done a check to see if these users are the same person? Zenwhat is clearly not a new user when he signed up for his account. It's possible, of course, that he had been editing for some time under an IP address (which is allowed), but it's more likely that he is either a reincarnation of another user, or a sockpuppet. None of that is necessarily against Wikipedia rules, but this account has been used from the start primarily for disruptive and bizarre project-space edits. If the account is a sock, then it should be blocked and the user told to stop doing silly stuff and to edit from his main account. If not, the user should be restricted to editing only articles (no project space or user space) and put on vandalism parole. *** Crotalus *** 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

He's admitted to being a previous user and having re-regged after forgetting his old password. He's not so much a sock as he is a nuisance. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem with a temp/indef project space ban is that we'd have no way to judge if he's gotten the message. I think he's proven he knows the behavioral guidelines well enough to know the effect he has by his editing patterns, he's gotten warnings...48 hours seems right. Can we get a general agreement on that? RxS (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, see my comments above. A any temporary length block is arbitrary. It would be punishment, and we do not punish. Either unblock now, or leave the block up. If we believe the user will cease the problematic behavior, then there is no reason to leave the block in place. If we believe the user will not cease the problematic behavior, then what is the point of simply allowing them to continue the behavior in 48 hours? What is magic about 48 hours or 1 week or any other number? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not any amount of time. As I said above, his only 2 edits after the final warning, were not a disruptive ones and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Then unblock, we can't predict what pattern he will take if he only was able to edit the mainspace once after receiving the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You'd have a point if this was a regular vandal, but we're talking about an experienced user who should know better. He's gotten enough feedback to know that his edits were a problem, whether they were official warnings or not. RxS (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No number is magical. But the answer is likely to be somewhere in between "unblock right now" and "never unblock". A few days block would help make it clear to Zenwhat that many editors find his behavior problematic. Friday (talk) 05:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I will oppose any unblock that does not contain the guarantee that he will change his attitudes, behavior, and actions, and a method of dealing with him if such circumstances arise again. Enough of his disruption and trolling. —Kurykh 05:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Indef block is way, way overkill here. Not appropriate at all. Bstone (talk) 05:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Zenwhat has retired per [68]. MBisanz ^talk 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would not pay that any mind. He's obviously upset (with a right to be), and so I don't think it's fair to say that his retirement is permeant. Regardless of that, his account should be unblocked. -- Ned Scott 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not reviewed Zenwhat's edits and know him only from interactions on my talk page. Mostly he has come there and joked around, but not in any particularly bad way if I recall. We have had some tongue-in-cheek discussions that I enjoyed. However, article space joking around is of course Not Funny(tm), and I don't approve of that. But making fun of Cade Metz's bizarre rantings in The Register seems like a good thing. I would recommend and request that he be unblocked but under a very firm request not to joke around in article space. Of course I say this not having reviewed his contributions, so I could be wrong. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue seems largely NOT with his article-space edits, but with his unneccessarily provocative edits in the project-space, such as here at ANI and on the Village Pump. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

But what is "provocative"? The blocking admin said that the last edit (straw?) to JW's page was "provocative", but clearly not everyone sees it that way. R. Baley (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to be diplomatic. He's been trolling the project discussion pages for some time. That is the central issue. Again, leave the block up or unblock now. The rest of this seems like we're plea-bargining over a punishment, and that is not why we block people. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A ban is not the first step

A ban is the last step in the process, not the first one. The first step is giving this user specific ways he/she can improve, possibly through an RFC. He's come across my radar before and I've raised an eyebrow, but he's obviously a good faith user and it's worth taking a chance on trying to help him improve. --B (talk) 05:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No one is banning him. We just want to see a commitment to improvement. How hard is it to achieve that? All I see is whimpers of "too harsh" and "should be unblocked" and "blocked after final warning," yet I see no genuine attempts or proposals of committing Zenwhat to get his act together by the naysayers here. —Kurykh 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe that final warning did what you're wanting? We will never know since he was blocked anyway, will we? Especially since he's now retired from WP. Shame too. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 06:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I have lost any good faith on Zenwhat heeding warnings, given his prior responses to them. —Kurykh 06:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(to Kurykh) No, that's not how it works. We don't care if he says sorry and gives us puppy eyes. This block is extreme overkill. We have other ways to deal with this, and any blocking is seen as a last resort. If you don't like that, Kurykh, take it up with the blocking policy. -- Ned Scott 06:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the only one who doesn't want the unconditional unblock, as you can see from this thread. And I don't need him to give puppy eyes and say sorry. I just want an explicit commitment from him, and a detail of consequences were decorum be breached again. This is common procedure in these cases. I just don't see why we are allowing this one to be the sole exception. —Kurykh 06:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that he was given a final warning, he did not cause any further violations and yet he was indef blocked anyways. That is plainly disturbing. Bstone (talk) 06:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is all over the place. How about an unblock for now with a strong warning that there are serious concerns about his behavior. The point has probably been driven home effectively over the last hour. It also has to be made clear that Jimbo's comments above do not sanction his editing habits. Let's head off any more drama, and see how he reacts to all this? RxS (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would support an unblock now. I know I said something different WAY back there, but yes, the point is made. If the problems return, the block can return. He's hardly "under the radar" now. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked and put on probation

See User talk:Zenwhat#Unblocked - I have unblocked Zenwhat as there is clearly disagreement here as to the appropriateness of the block. I have also left a more clearer and wide-ranging (and less bitey) warning and probation statement there.

I invite admins to work with him with friendly discussion and cautions as appropriate. As I noted on his talk page, further serious disruption should be met by (short but increasingly long) blocks as per policy. I am not giving him a pass - I have applied longstanding user sanctions policy here. If he continues to be disruptive act appropriately. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the block, I think there is something special about this user. The user is over active, intelligent and very aware of the wikipedia policies and its history. The user knows the system from a high level perspective: See how the user responded to me at [69], it closed my mouth to some extent. I am mostly interested to know this user, admittedly the strangest user I have ever seen on wikipedia. I originally thought that the user is over active because he wants to become an admin, and tried to check this hypothesis, but as of now, I think the user is just active in nature. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And this is [70] worth seeing. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

He's Back

[71] Charles Stewart (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I am against issuing any blocks against against this user whatsoever . As I mentioned above, this user is special and the above diff provided by Charles proves this further. This user may have things to say and I for one want to listen if there is anything to be learned. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

NiggardlyNorm

NiggardlyNorm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Carlossuarez46 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Carlossuarez46 blocked NiggardlyNorm as a result of the latter's comments to the former at User_talk:Carlossuarez46#Major_Garrett_deletion. Norm has requested an unblock and I'm inclined to grant it as an obviously unjustifiable block. Since Carlos appears to have logged off for the evening, I wanted to bring it here before taking any action. Any objections to removing the block? --B (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only do I support the unblock, I also support and early close at AfD for the bad faith nomination of the article for deletion, so that after NN returns, he can build the article nicely. ThuranX (talk) 05:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I revised the article under question somewhat with a new reference and section division. I hope that helps! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 05:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Clearly not a bad-faith nom. The article was one sentence long, and it wasn't even a particularly good sentence. The nominator speedied, the article was re-created, so he took it to AFD. He shouldn't have blocked an editor for personal attacks when he was the subject of the attacks, but let's not go overboard in assuming bad faith, please. -- Vary | Talk 05:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI to anyone reading this, I've unblocked him. We can leave this up here a little while longer in case anyone else has something to say about it or the blocking admin wants to comment. --B (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Does anyone here know what the word Niggardly means? I don't think KikieKate or ChinkyChuck would be acceptable either. Charles Stewart (talk) 07:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps someone in the Wikimedia universe does. ;) <-- extraordinarily rare emoticon placed there because, in my estimation, to fail to do so would be a violation of WP:CIVIL. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"Niggardly" means "miserly", but, some are sensitive to the use of this word [72]. Cla68 (talk) 07:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• So, apparently some people feel that calling a person a bot is OK, and that denial of one's humanity is not problematic, perhaps more especially from someone who has deliberately chosen a name that - while technically not a slur - is clearly meant to stir up emotions, just like I know that Spic & Span is a cleanser and fag is a cigarette, so who have called me those must be complimenting my cleanliness and my similarity to a cigarette. Yeah, right. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Except that his name isn't a racial slur. The mayor of Washington fired someone for using it several years back and was roundly criticized by basically everyone in the media who speaks the English language. This word and the racial slur are completely unrelated in their derivation. If he were editing articles about racial issues ... ok ... that would strain the ability to assume good faith ... but he isn't. As for his conduct, if there was anything out of line, responding with a template only inflamed the situation. --B (talk) 08:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Fadix

User:Fadix was banned by decision of the arbitration committee for 1 year, [73] and his ban was reset twice for evasion with socks. [74] Now he is posting evidence to the new arbitration case with his new self-admitted sock account Rodolui (talk · contribs). [75] Is it OK for a banned user to post evidence to arbitration cases and talks of articles? Grandmaster (talk) 05:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Posting with a sock is not ok. I could see unblocking the main account SOLEY for the purpose of editing the RFAR page, if and only if the arbitration committee feels there is something important for this user to say. (Don't know, haven't looked at this particular case.) --B (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

He tried to do the same during the previous AA case: [76] His sock account was blocked, edits reverted and ban reset. Grandmaster (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A banned user can email arbcom if they have pertinent information. The user has identified themself as Fadix, so I have blocked the account. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

As these issues often clog up ANI and because a ban may be reset if the community agrees that the account is a sock of Fadix, I have opened Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fadix (2nd) for further comment. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Incivility User:Calton

After two requests for civility,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Calton#Civility http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=189856899

User:Calton persists in making increasingly uncivil remarks and unsubstantiated, if not boggling, accusations about various users, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Telogen&diff=189873578&oldid=189867643.

His vitriol began shortly after I and User:Boodlesthecat reported User:Griot.

Thank you, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 06:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a new problem... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nor is this a new sockpuppet. It's obviously the return of an obsessive edit-warrior and self-promoter, the indefinitely blocked Telogen (talk · contribs) aka blocked-for-six-months 76.166.123.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) aka Jeanne Marie Spicuzza. Forum-shopping again for her crusade about the evilness of Griot and her perceived enemies. [77] [78] [79] [80] [81]. Oh, and this IP was itself blocked a month for sockpuppeting back in November. That part is obvious: the Checkuser is only to see if there's a connection between the IP -- which has a history of sockpuppeting -- and her new ally.

This IP also seems to make a lot of odd claims in hoping to make something stick, inclusing the physically impossible -- unless she has evidence that cause-and-effect works backwards? --Calton | Talk 06:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

False accusations and acidic insults only serve to confirm User:Calton WP:CIVIL violations. In fact, I have no idea what this user is talking about. I started sharing this apartment in January, and the rest is mind-boggling to me. Someone named Jeanne and a User:Telogen, who User:Calton clearly defames and/or dislikes and apparently shares this with User:Griot, and User:Boodlesthecat, who has a solid history as a good editor and member of the community. Is this what Wikipedia is about? I thought we were an encyclopedia, building and sharing knowledge, not a vehicle for personal vendetta, political POV pushing and slanderous attacks. If I stand corrected, then Wikipedia is reduced to a shock blog, and I will not participate in that.

User:Calton is correct on one point. I do use Time Warner, the second largest ISP in the U.S. 4.1 million subscribers. Thank you for your attention, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=189912532. 76.87.47.110 (talk) 09:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia

am i editing wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ?kjdfng83 (talk • contribs) 07:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. If you would like to play with Wikipedia, feel free to edit the sandbox. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't help but feel that this is somehow related to this edit [82] who is telling these newbies (assuming it isn't the same user that has been lost all this time) to post here to check if they are able to edit? - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There is definite similarity between this user's post, and the one above, but assuming good faith i have given ?kjdfng83 a welcome note, plus a message about their username, which seems inappropriate--Jac16888 (talk) 07:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

who are you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ?kjdfng83 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A garden variety Wiki admin, who are you? - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And I heard Roger Daltry's voice in my head. Maybe I should get to sleep. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Or just stop watching CSI--Jac16888 (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

:O

I just edited Bogdanov, and I am fairly new. I must be indefinitely banned per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Regarding The Bogdanov Affair. A rotten apple, I am. Bad Rudie, bad! >:( Rudie M. (talk) 08:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

We'd be happy to oblige, after the obligatory WTF... Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Since your edit to Bogdanov Affair was minor, [83], and mostly insignificant, I think you'll be alright--Jac16888 (talk) 08:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, what a relief. Alrighty, time to find my inner peace. Rudie M. (talk) 08:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yawn. I think this thread is done already. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, it would appear that that arbcom discussion ended 11 November 2005 , i don't know why the tag is still there, so i've removed it--Jac16888 (talk) 08:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, OK, OK, I'm not trolling, I swear. I was just afraid I'd have my hairy ass blocked frever and ever because I made an edit. Rudie M. (talk) 08:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

:O

Seeing teh dramaz around here, and loving the title of the above section. What this place needs is the following suggestion;

Attention everyone. Go edit an article.

Regards, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 08:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I missing something? GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 08:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Odd page creation

Not sure where this should be asked, but it seems that IPs can create anything in the talk namespace. Is this an intentional feature of the MediaWiki software? GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 08:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It's not perfect, but it is there because they should be allowed to comment if there is no such comment to begin with.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, okay, that clears that up. I was seriously confused about the page creation. Note that the editor who created the (now-deleted) page might need to be warned, as he/she seems to be using these talkpages to create a good deal of Harry Potter "plot" and "ending" pages. Thanks, GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 09:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look into it now.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)