Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 February 15

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February 15

Germans from Bohemia and Moravia

Category:German natives of Bohemia to Category:Bohemian Germans
Category:German natives of Moravia to Category:Moravian Germans
Category:Sudeten Germans (subcategory of "Bohemian Germans")
Category:Czech Germans (clarify?)
Category:German-Czech people (merge?)

There are a number of potentially conflicting categories concerning Germans from Bohemia. An earlier discussion at WP:CZECH ultimately was inconclusive, so I'd like to initiate a wider discussion here. Similar to the Alsatian German proposal below, Category:German natives of Bohemia and Category:German natives of Moravia would be better at Category:Bohemian Germans and Category:Moravian Germans. Category:Sudeten Germans would remain as a subcategory of Category:Bohemian Germans, and would focus on the 19th and 20th concept of Sudeten Germans.

Category:Czech Germans and Category:German-Czech people also need to be clarified or merged. "Czech Germans" currently contains both Germans born in Czechoslovakia and Czechs born in Germany. "German-Czech people" seems like it could be merged into other categories. Olessi (talk) 20:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename both Bohemian and Moravian ones. "Sudeten Germans" should not be categorized under Bohemian one as substantial part of Sudetes is a part of Silesia. Category "Czech Germans" is a standard category for Germans with Czech ethnic ancestry, same as "Bosnian-Germans" or "Albanian-Germans". "German-Czech people" should be probably merged. - Darwinek (talk) 21:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Czech Germans" makes sense referring to Germans with Czech ancestry; Nicole Vaidišová needs to be recategorized then (Category:German Czechs?). "Sudeten Germans" could easily be a subcategory of both "Bohemian Germans" and Category:Silesian Germans, since the Sudetes overlap regions. Olessi (talk) 21:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No no, general English language preference is "ethnicity-citizenship", see e.g. Cat:German people by ethnic or national origin or Cat:European Americans, to name some. I don't think Silesian Germans would be useful category, since vast majority of Silesia was in Prussia (Germany) and majority of its citizens were Germans anyway. - Darwinek (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want "Sudeten Germans" as a subcategory of "Bohemian Germans", then many biographies in the former would have to be categorized in the latter as well, since many of the Sudeten Germans lived in Bohemia instead of Silesia. Olessi (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No no, you understood me wrongly. I am OK with this subcategorization. I just think category "Silesian Germans" is redundant. - Darwinek (talk) 00:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that the Bohemian and Moravian ones should be renamed, and that "German-Czech people" should be merged with "Czech Germans". Because "Bohemian Germans" and "Moravian Germans" could easily be classified as subsets of "Czech Germans", the latter should apply to "Czech" in the sense of post-World War II Czechoslovakia or its successor state, the Czech Republic, while the former (Bohemian and Moravian Germans) should apply during and prior to World War II, when "Moravian" and "Bohemian" are more accurate and "Czech" potentially misleading, as "Czech" lands were then variously part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, occupied by Germany, or otherwise not distinctly "Czech". HLT (talk) 07:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, with the exception of "Czech Germans", this category is supposed to be for German citizens of Czech ancestry, per "ethnicity-citizenship" precedence and general use on Wikipedia. You can't change that, because you would must change hundreds of similar categories. - Darwinek (talk) 10:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Upmerge all into Category:People whose ethnicity defies categorisation. Someone said recently we should have the guts to delete all these categories. Others say repeatedly 'X is non-defining'. Surely these attributes are in most cases both impossible to decide and 'non-defining'? (See eg Gregor Mendel and its talk page; German wiki just categorises him as Austrian. See also Vivica Genaux.) -- roundhouse0 (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:German natives of Alsace

Propose renaming Category:German natives of Alsace to Category:Alsatian Germans

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Earlier discussions ([1] [2]) have indicated that biographies should not be categorized by both ethnicity and location. I have begun categorizing articles at Category:People from Alsace-Lorraine, referring solely to the administrative territory, not the individual's ethnicity (German, French, etc). Individuals not from the 1871-1918 time period should be categorized under Category:People from Alsace or Category:People from Lorraine. To cover the ethnicity angle, individuals (regardless of time period) can be categorized under Category:Alsatian Germans, a subcategory of Category:German people by ethnic or national origin. Olessi (talk) 20:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

rename per nom. This seems like a reasonable change for clarity and simplicity. Hmains (talk) 22:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Korean diaspora

Suggest merging Category:Korean diaspora to Category:Korean people by ethnic or national origin

Nominator's rationale: Merge. These two categories basically duplicate each other. I am not wedded to the direction of the merge, but one should be merged into another. I am also not enthusiastic about the names of either of these categories; additional discussion on whether a third name is appropriate would be appreciated. --Nlu (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep both Category:Korean diaspora is for Korean people not in Korea. Category:Korean people by ethnic or national origin is for people in Korea who are not entirely Korean and is part of the large Category:People by ethnic or national origin. Both names seem fine (except South and North are lumped together). -- roundhouse0 (talk) 20:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep both per roundhouse. These are two distinct and useful categories. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
keep both per above; they are as different as can be, as can be seen by looking at their parent categories. This may illustrate the confusion that arises with the categories we have that do not state their purpose/inclusion criteria. Hmains (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Surf breaks by country

Propose renaming Category:Surf breaks by country to Category:Surfing locations by country

Nominator's rationale: Rename. I am proposing this renaming because I think Locations by country should be a subcat of Category:Surfing locations, and I feel the use of "breaks" or "locations" should be standardized in the clearest way possible. "Location" is, I think, the more encyclopedic term. If successful, the sub-categories Category:Surf breaks in Australia and Category:Surf breaks in Indonesia should be similarly renamed, as well. Thank you, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Alumni of Freiburg University

Propose renaming Category:Alumni of Freiburg University to Category:University of Freiburg alumni

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Standardize with other categories at Category:Alumni by university or college in Germany. Olessi (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom. -- roundhouse0 (talk) 20:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Georg August University of Göttingen

Propose renaming Category:Georg August University of Göttingen to Category:University of Göttingen

Nominator's rationale: Rename. I moved the article from Georg-August University of Göttingen to University of Göttingen according to WP:GERCON. Related categories, such as Category:Georg-August University of Göttingen alumni and Category:Georg-August University of Göttingen faculty, should also be moved. Olessi (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename all per nom. (That is, the 3 Göttingen ones, and the 3 Heidelberg ones.) -- roundhouse0 (talk) 20:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment related Göttingen and Heidelberg categories have been tagged. Olessi (talk) 20:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Binary asteroids

Propose renaming Category:Binary asteroids to Category:Asteroids with moons

Nominator's rationale: 'Binary asteroids' is an outmoded term, as several asteroids are known to have two moons, including 87 Sylvia, 2003 EL61 and 2001 SN263. 'Asteroids with moons' is more open to future discoveries, and fits the main article, asteroid moon. Rubble pile (talk) 17:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom Travtim^(Talk) 17:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the asteroid's moon is also an asteroid... and if the two components were similar in size, would it be a moon? Though this would mean what goes in Category:Asteroid satellites won't appear here, which is good. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 22:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose pending suggestion of a better name. Whilst "Binary asteroids" implies there are only two objects, "Asteroids with moons" is no better, as it implies that the secondary body is a satellite, which is not always the case. Proposal is a good idea, but needs a rethink. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 22:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Indian costume designers

Suggest merging Category:Indian costume designers to Category:Costume designers

Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization, only 3 articles in this category. The only nationality which is subcategorized, this seems unnecessary to me. Rtphokie (talk) 16:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

decline move While I would be all for merging generally, costume design is a major part of the Indian film industry and there is likely to be a far greater number of biogrpahies which are important in design in Indian film which could be covered. At present a merge seems plausible, but if costume design was covered in more detail there are likely to be many personalities in the Indian film industry which are prominent designers ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ ^$1,000,000? 16:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

decline - Costumes constitute an integral part of the Indian film industry, and everybody is very aware of this. The problem with it being very short in terms of available names is temporal. We will create more articles about Indian designer. Shahid • ^Talk2me 16:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as is, as per Shahid above Travtim^(Talk) 17:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Costume design varies considerably from country to country. Rather than eliminating this sub-category I would strongly encourage creating many additional sub-cats by nationality! Cgingold (talk) 11:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Dürer paintings

Propose renaming Category:Dürer paintings to Category:Dürer paintings and prints

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Only one of the articles in the category is a painting. Mats Halldin (talk) 15:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom. As with Category:William Hogarth paintings and prints, no point in splitting these unless they get much bigger. Note added to the parent Category:Paintings by artist. Johnbod (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom Travtim^(Talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom. Another good suggestion would be Category:Dürer works. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We keep that for authors - and Durer did write books, but we don't have articles on them, nor are we likely to have. Johnbod (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Visitor attractions in Greater Tampa

Propose renaming Category:Visitor attractions in Greater Tampa to Category:Visitor attractions in Tampa Bay Area

Nominator's rationale The term "Greater Tampa" is not used at all in this area. The area is known as the "Tampa Bay Area" and even has its own article to prove it. "Greater Tampa" gives the impression that the area is dominated by Tampa (like NYC, Chicago, Philly all dominate their areas, but oddly enough, none of those are referred to as "Greater x", either), but there are the large stand-alone cities more than 1/2 the size of Tampa itself of St. Petersburg and Clearwater that are also included in the Tampa Bay area. So, I think it would be more apropos to have the category reflect the real name of the area. Eagles Fan In Tampa 13:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom Travtim^(Talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom --Rtphokie (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:Visitor attractions in the Tampa Bay Area (note the addition of the word "the") per nom. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People who entered the Witness Protection Program

Category:People who entered the Witness Protection Program - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. Obsolete. Only Sicilian mafiosi are mentioned. Category is already covered by Category:Pentiti. - Mafia Expert (talk) 11:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now Only set up today, so the fact "only Sicilian mafiosi are mentioned" is not the end of the world. Not the same as Pentiti, but whether it should be a sub-cat of that may bwe an issue later. I notice Henry Hill, probably the most widely-known example of both thanks to Goodfellas, is not in either category; you guys need to organize your crime a bit better maybe? Cent' anni! Johnbod (talk) 12:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. You are entirely right that the categories about crime are a terrible mess. Moreover, they are growing like wildfire. They should be re-organized before any new ones are created, adding to the confusiom. - Mafia Expert (talk) 13:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me a category worth having, and there must be non-mafiosi WPP alumni we have articles on, in which case it should end up detatched from the pentiti. Johnbod (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Aztec people

Propose renaming Category:Aztec people to Category:Nahua people

Nominator's rationale: "Aztec" is an ambiguous name, and usually avoided in scholarly sources. "Nahua" is what the category is already being used to mean, and renaming it makes it more appropriate for including the modern people, who are rarely called "Aztec". Ptcamn (talk) 09:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Rarely by specialized academics maybe; absolutely always by everyone else, and by the main article Aztec. Maybe a redirect could be added. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Johnbod. Also none of the articles listed under the present category are of contemporaneous people. If more articles of modern Nahua are created, perhaps it would be appropriate to create another category. — Zerida 01:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Johnbod and Zerida. And note that the parent cat, Category:Aztec, also has six other sub-cats that use the term "Aztec". Cgingold (talk) 12:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Transit agencies in Canada

Propose renaming Category:Transit agencies in Canada to Category:Public transport in Canada

Nominator's rationale: Rename. The category serves de facto the same role as all the categories in Category:Public transport by country. Probably all the provincial subcategories should also be renamed. We could always create a new category for public transport in Canada and place the Transit agencies as a subcategory but this would just create a superfluous level of categorization. Pichpich (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If you rename, use Canadian English, hence Category:Public transit in Canada (best) or Category:Public transportation in Canada (okay). Also, what will you do with the intersection with Category:Municipally-owned companies of Canada and Category:Intermodal transportation authorities? See Category:Public transport executives in the United Kingdom, for example. But at the same time don't duplicate Category:Rapid transit in Canada! - Kevlar67 (talk) 19:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Bring It On actors

Category:Bring It On actors - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Should we really be categorizing actors by film series? We could easily have hundreds of categories like this, but it seems very much like over categorization to me. PC78 (talk) 00:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - performer by performance overcategorization by overwhelming precedent. Otto4711 (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. We should probably close all such debates when they pop up. The precedent is indeed overwhelming and people commenting here (like, say, me) are just wasting time. Pichpich (talk) 05:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom Travtim^(Talk) 17:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Famous androgynes

Category:Famous androgynes - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: This category really puzzles me. How does someone define that a specific person is androgyne? Magioladitis (talk) 00:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - no possible objective inclusion criterion. For those who are alive, WP:BLP concerns are evident. Otto4711 (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because we do not do "famous X" which is a recapitulation of notability, and "androgyny" is subjective. --Lquilter (talk) 04:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, agree with all three above. In the end, this requires a subjective assessment. (on both counts) Pichpich (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and all above Travtim^(Talk) 17:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. I was amused to see some the name of Annie Lennox? Why, I wonder? Because she wears her hair short and sometimes -- though by no means exclusively -- performed in men's attire? So did Marlene Dietrich. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete per nom. This is borderline vandalism.--Rtphokie (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete: Unless an individual verifiably identifies as being androgynous, their categorisation as such would be subjective and possibly contentious. In view of WP:V and WP:BLP, this category seems ill-considered. Error -128 (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]