Talk:False memory syndrome

Why has the list of subjects that are commonly "recovered" as "memories" been removed? I guess it's too awkward for a proponent... --- Uncovering Hidden Memories, a number of techniques used by different brands of therapists, is thought by psychologists to be actually planting false memories. Among the things people allegedly remember in such therapies are:

• Sexual abuse
• Satanic ritual abuse
• Alien abduction
• Reincarnation
• Multiple personality disorder

--- On seeing that list, one either has to accept that

• all those things are real, or that
• the techniques used are not a reliable tool for finding the truth.
• (Is there a third possibility? I can't think of one. Can you?)

So, once you know what you can do with Recovered Memory Therapy, you will recognize that it's unreliable, unless you are really really gullible. I guess this is why 67.164.203.46 wants to hide that information.

This page has turned into a Recovered Memories Advocacy Page - the unconvenient information is gone and was repaced by a lot of "you can't prove me wrong" weasel talk.

Absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence. (As opposed to absence of proof, which is not proof of absence.) As far as I know, there has never been a case where someone has regained memories that are truly and evidently memories of real events. But thousands of people have had their memories recovered! One should expect that at least a few of them found real evidence of the things they remembered. Hob 20:45, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

a view on Hob's objections

I believe I can explain some of the thinking behind 67.164.203.46's recent changes to this entry. Hob listed many objections which touch on several of the hot points in the debate over false memory and false memory syndrome, and I feel like this should be discussed now before any editing or flame wars start.

I agree with Hob's concern over information being taken out of the entry, but I agree more with the intent it seems 67.164.203.46 had in making the edits. The section was entitled "Uncovering Hidden Memories." A new term "hidden memories" was introduced to the entry, but not explained. It then mentioned "a number of techniques" which were not mentioned nor explained. Also, which brands of therapists were being referenced? It then pits therapists against psychologists when stating that psychologists believe the unreferenced techniques of the unreferenced therapists cause memories to be implanted. I agree with 67.164.203.46 in editing out this whole part because it was grossly underwritten. I agree with Hob that the treatment methods should be included. But I would rather have the relevant information included properly, especially when it gets to this controversial stuff.

I have read a lot about this, and have experience with it. But I know that there are many many other who can do a better job at fleshing out this topic fairly. But, as it gets written, I want to see what I like in other trustworthy Wikipedia entries - flatly presenting the issues of the topic.

Hob was upset with the list of things people have remembered from the unreferenced therapy techniques. I don't think anything like that should be included unless the various treatments are mentioned and explained appropriately as they relate to the entry of false memory. Hob then went on to try to convice readers of his point of view. I sincerely hope that the discussion and editing is not geared in this manner. Rather, everyone should focus on what the issues are, what knowledge currently exists in the professional knowledge of the subject, and what should be included. I personally think that "false memory" should be separate from "false memory syndrome" because the current science of memory explains why false memories happen, and the entry should center around the issues of memory and the dynamic assimilation of information that creates our memories and processes which contribute to the correct of incorrect formation of memories. I appreciate 67.164.203.46's inclusion of ideas like rehearsal, short-, and long-term memory because I feel this should be the main direction of this entry. False memory syndrome is a vastly different topic, and rather multifaceted. The issue of treatment should be discussed, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, etc. And the realities of the two sides - that people really do have traumatic experiences and forget that they happened, and that false memories also do happen.

I think it's entirely possible to get this right. I really love Wikipedia and think the world deserves information, not bias. Oh, and Hob, you can add me as the first person you know that has had a recovered memory confirmed by external sources, "real evidence" as you put it. Nice to meet you. --08:18, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)gnureality

Reasons for recent edit

I edited this article with the sole intent of cleaning it up in terms of style, removing unclear language, and recasting some of its more uncautious statements into less inflammatory, more objective forms. I have made every effort to retain the writer's intent.

That said, I do think the article lacks substantiation and largely remains an opinion piece. Perhaps the writer will consider reinforcing the most glaring instances of questionable support. For example, regarding false memory syndrome, the writer asserts that "this condition has been studied" and that "sufferers have confessed to 'entirely made up stories'" but does not say how often or rigorously FMS has been studied and provides no references. The article's validity could be shored up tremendously with such support.

I chose to edit this piece because I find the subject matter interesting. I claim no expertise in the field of memory, although I do write and edit medical and scientific works for a living and have performed such related work as helping to line-edit the DSM-IV. Of course, such experience does not qualify me to rewrite this piece--hence my attempt to confine my changes to the issues mentioned. If anything I have done has in fact altered the author's intent, I hope someone will contact me so that I can address the matter.

Jack

Context and balance

I have a personal interest in this topic, which I will explain below, so I scanned the existing text curiously. Although there were some efforts at NPOV, the external links in particular did not seem properly balanced.

There are sufficient well-documented cases, like those involving satanic rituals and alien abduction, that clearly suggest false memories and those who instill them are a serious problem. The article is a reasonable attempt to describe this.

My own bias — and we all have one — is towards skepticism, though perhaps more moderate than CSICOP. But that also means I'm uncomfortable when I know there are two sides of a story, and only one presented. One of the prominent researchers affirming suppressed memories of trauma is someone I met many years ago, psychologist Jennifer Freyd. Her personal story involves a memory of sexual abuse by her father; this memory arose after I knew her. Two of the founders of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation are her parents, whom I later came to meet independently. They deny the abuse. All three are remarkable, intelligent people; Peter Freyd is a respected mathematician, an expert in category theory. What is the truth? Who should I believe? It is a very uncomfortable position for me; I can hardly imagine what it must be like for them. Were I a juror in a court case, however, I could not in good conscience entirely rely on anyone’s memory. I would want more tangible evidence.

It seems important to explain that false memories can seem as real and compelling as accurate memories. It also seems important to remind people of what we all know, that memory is fallible. What most people do not realize is how complex and creative memory is, and how easily it can be manipulated. For example, one magician can watch another perform, see the “dirty work” clearly, then hear a rapt audience member later describe impossible events that were not what they truly witnessed — but it’s what they remember. Finally, it is important to understand how upset people can become when their memory is challenged, reacting with considerably less aplomb than the central character in Total Recall.

I think the police lineup example is instructive, because more careful control of procedure has had benefits for everyone (except perhaps the guilty). And when DNA evidence conclusively overthrows a rape conviction based on the victim’s mistaken eyewitness identification, it also overthrows a common illusion that such testimony is reliable. Inadvertently, the police were “coaching” the witness, then reinforcing the victim’s belief to support their own. This is exactly what can happen in therapy.

Psychologists use double-blind experimental protocols because they know they cannot trust themselves, a fact well-documented in the history of the field. We should be no less careful about inadvertently creating false memories, because the consequences can be far worse.

This is not the same as declaring which memories are true and which are false. It is more like putting on a jacket when we know it’s extremely cold outside, a common-sense measure to avoid hypothermia.

I have tried to emulate the respect Ray Hyman shows serious researchers in parapsychology, even though he does not agree with their conclusions. With any luck, all sides here will be happy with the additions.

KSmrq 2005 July 1 04:26 (UTC)

Can we rename to False memory syndrome?

Guys: FMS is the TLA for this thing. Let us rename the entry to "False Memory Syndrome" Amorrow 22:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)