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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 February 24

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February 24

Category:Fictional characters by religion

Category:Fictional characters by religion - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Christians - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Catholics - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Anglicans - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Methodists - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Latter Day Saints - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Buddhists - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Hindus - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Muslims - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Jews - Template:Lc1
Category:Fictional Shintoists - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Religion is only very very rarely a defining characteristic of fictional characters. For example, Category:Fictional Catholics includes articles which are only marginally related. Sure, Rocky Balboa is a catholic, so is John Abruzzi and so is Adela Corinthos. But that common trait does not make these fictional characters significantly similar. (In fact, for Abruzzi and Rocky, the real common trait is that they are both Italian-Americans. Catholicism is more or less a by-product) We do have Category:Fictional characters by genre which can (and probably should) include something like Category:Christian fiction characters (as a subcat of Category:Christian fiction). Note that we also have Category:Fictional religious workers for vowed people of faith and Category:Fictional saints. Both of these should stay of course. Moreover, fictional characters that have significantly impacted the perception of a particular faith should go in categories such as Category:Christianity in popular culture and other subcats of Category:Religion in popular culture. The categorization guideline says "categories, which serve as classifications, should be the significant (useful) topics to which the subject of the article most closely belongs to as a member, and where users are most likely to look if they can't remember the name of the thing they are trying to look up." It's pretty unlikely that someone looking for the Rocky, Michael Corleone, Scarlett O'Hara or Eric Cartman will look it up through fictional catholics. Pichpich (talk) 17:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confused - you're calling for the deletion of the parent category but not the subcats? Because you're saying that categories for fictional characters of a particular religion are useful, but the parent that gathers them isn't? But then you seem to be saying that the subcats aren't useful either? Otto4711 (talk) 22:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, I'm calling for the deletion of the subcategories (should I nominate them separately here?). But I think I understand what in the above explanations had you confused. So let me give it another try sticking solely to the subcategory Category:Fictional Catholics as an example. In short, I propose deleting it. Now some might say "but what about fictional catholic priests?" Well these should be categorized by their occupation, which is way more significant. Most likely, they're in fact already in the proper subcategory of Category:Fictional religious workers. The second objection to the deletion might be that there are a few fictional characters who arguably had a major role in shaping the image of catholics in fiction. I don't know of any, but I suppose they might exist and these could be added to Category:Christianity in popular culture. Finally, there's a lot of Christian literature (in the sense of Christian novels) out there (though it's usually not catholic but you get the idea). These should be categorized through an appropriate genre-related category, i.e. a subcat of Category:Fictional characters by genre. Is that a bit clearer? Pichpich (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, it is clearer, and yes, you do need to tag each of the subcats but you can simply add them to this nomination rather than doing a separate one. As for the nom, I oppose it. I don't agree with the notion that a religion is a genre and if I were searching out fictional characters of a particular religion the by genre tree would probably never occur to me as a place to look. I think there are plenty of instances where a fictional character's religion is a defining characteristic. Wolfsbane for instance during the early part of her career was tormented by her religious beliefs and her inability to reconcile them with her mutant powers. Margaret White is clearly defined by her religious fanaticism. Categorizing them on this basis strikes me as entirely reasonable. I agree with you that a fictional Catholic priest should be in a fictional clergy category rather than one of these, but that fictional clergy category can then be parented in Category:Fictional Catholics. I am rather strongly opposed to the notion of putting them in the in popular culture tree at all, but I also admit that part of that opposition is based on my general antipathy for the IPC structure and probably 90% of its contents. Otto4711 (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added Maggie dear to the fictional Christians category. I guess I'm still confused as to what you hope to acheive by this nom or why the genre category is being brought into it, but I still find the categorization scheme useful and oppose its deletion. Otto4711 (talk) 23:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me go over the genre thing again. Christian novels form a genre. The main characters are usually Christian (though not exclusively). As it happens, this genre is fairly notable and is routinely the subject of scholarly work. Thus, I think that categorizing fictional characters as fictional characters occurring in that genre would be interesting. That, of course, is a side issue: it has no bearing on whether the nominated categories should or should not be deleted. Still, I thought it was worth mentioning. Pichpich (talk) 02:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that the category is large does not mean much. It includes every TV character that belongs to the mafia but I'm positive that there are no articles for individual characters of Graham Greene's novels. As it is being used now, the category is drowning in irrelevant content. Pichpich (talk) 23:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There's an interesting option used for Mormons: Category:Portrayals of Mormons in popular media. Now the advantage here is that the name clearly stresses that the important thing is not the character's faith but rather the fact that the character is being specifically used to portray religion X. Again, my aim here is to delete categories which have grown useless because their scope is not sufficiently restricted. I find it hard to imagine that any scholarly work could be done on Catholics in fiction with its focus on Everybody Loves Raymond characters. By contrast, there is scholarly work done on the evolution of significant Catholic portrayals in fiction (which would exclude, easily, 90% of the current articles in the category). Pichpich (talk) 00:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all. Others have made good points above. With respect to Category:Fictional Latter Day Saints, it is most certainly defining for most of those included, since they are the Mormon fundamentalist characters from Big Love. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: SSS is a Jack Mormon, I believe, which can be a Latter Day Saint of dubious "faithfulness" to the religion, but a Latter Day Saint nonetheless. To me this seems like a simple matter of the "defining-ness" of a category. Simply stated, the nominator's rationale appears to be that the categories are being applied to fictional persons for whom religious status is not defining. If this is the case, the answer to me then seems to be to manage the categories better and weed out those for whom it is not defining. Yes, it's a pain to do so, but to me it's a better solution than scrapping the entire idea outright. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the other hand, it's safe to say that the religion of fictional characters is almost always unimportant. Like I said above, in the rare cases where this is truly a central focus, it would be best to stress this through something like Portrayal of members of religion X. The current content of the category is in my mind undeniably trivial and those in favor of keeping these categories have not addressed that problem. Pichpich (talk) 14:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Mail transport agents

Category:IBF World Championships

Propose renaming Category:IBF World Championships to Category:World Badminton Championships
Nominator's rationale: IBF World Championships redirects to BWF World Championships; but, the lead of the article also mentions that they are known as the World Badminton Championships. That seems like a nice name to encompass the IBF and BWF periods. Neier (talk) 14:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Green anarchy

Wikipedia template categories

Propose renaming:

Category:Section templates to Category:Wikipedia page-section templates
Identifies type of section and prefixes "Wikipedia" per similar top-level categories in Category:Wikipedia templates.
Category:Deprecated and orphaned templates to Category:Wikipedia deprecated and orphaned templates —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sardanaphalus (talkcontribs) 15:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Template categories to Category:Wikipedia template categories
Category:Templates about featured topics to Category:Wikipedia featured topics templates
Category:Uncategorized templates to Category:Wikipedia uncategorized templates
To include "Wikipedia" per other top-level categories in Category:Wikipedia templates.

Sardanaphalus (talk) 13:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just do it. : - ) --MZMcBride (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

American football players

Since American can describe the nationality of players, and/or the type of football being played, I think these categories should be renamed. Renaming the first one in the list would make it match all of its current member articles. Renaming the other two would follow as a logical extension up the category tree. Neier (talk) 13:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American football players by nationality to Category:Players of American football by nationality
Category:American football players to Category:Players of American football
Category:American football players by position to Category:Players of American football by position

Category:Football (soccer) players by country

Propose renaming Category:Football (soccer) players by country to Category:Football (soccer) players by nationality
Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match similar categories, such as Category:Basketball players by nationality and Category:Baseball players by nationality. See Category:Sportspeople by nationality for a more complete list. Neier (talk) 13:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Athletics clubs

You can look at this in two ways. Either these are clubs/facilities physically located in a country, and the current name violates WP:NCCAT for manmade structures; or, that they are teams, and even though WP:NCCAT does not explicitly recommend a naming style for teams, the parent categories such as Category:Athletics in the United Kingdom, as well as recent discussions about hockey and baseball teams show that these should be changed accordingly . Neier (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)}}[reply]

Category:British athletics clubs rename to Category:Athletics clubs in the United Kingdom
Category:Danish athletics clubs rename to Category:Athletics clubs in Denmark
Category:German athletics clubs rename to Category:Athletics clubs in Germany
Category:Luxembourgian athletics clubs rename to Category:Athletics clubs in Luxembourg
Category:Norwegian athletics clubs rename to Category:Athletics clubs in Norway

Category:Event processing

Suggest merging Category:Event processing to Category:Event (computing)
Nominator's rationale: Merge, Duplicates existing (and better populated) category. RichardVeryard (talk) 10:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Events (computing)" or "Event processing (computing)" come to mind as less singular names...? Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can accept either of Sardanaphalus's suggestions. --RichardVeryard (talk) 11:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Demography of Colombia

Suggest merging Category:Demography of Colombia to Category:Demographics of Colombia
Nominator's rationale: Merge, in line with other subcategories of Cat:Demographics by country. Darwinek (talk) 10:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, per nom. Mikebar (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Lists of solar system objects

Propose renaming Category:Lists of solar system objects to Category:Lists of Solar System objects
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Per Solar System, Small Solar System body, etc. Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename if - As long as we're talking about our Solar System, which we homo-centristically named, we should be first caps per nom. My perusal of the category suggests that we are talking about "our" Solar System, so the proper name is proper, I believe. --Lquilter (talk) 15:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Communes of Jura

Propose renaming Category:Communes of Jura to Category:Communes of the Jura department
Nominator's rationale: Rename. The category lists municipalities from the Jura department in France and not, e.g. communes of the Swiss Canton of Jura. As the current name is too generic, I suggest renaming it to "Communes of the Jura department". -- User:Docu
Maybe instead a disambiguation bracket such as "Communes of Jura (French départment)"? I guess the main article Communes of the Jura deparment would also need renaming to Communes of Jura (French départment). (Suggest using "départment" with the e-acute as "department" pretty general - there was a French department at my school.) Otherwise I wonder if the "the" is needed in "Communes of the [somewhere] department". Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some time ago all articles with "département" in the title were changed to "department". The above proposal has the advantage that it's consistent with the main article's title (Communes of the Jura department). -- User:Docu
Okay, make my suggestions Category:Communes of Jura (French department) (and add hatnote about the other Jura) and Communes of Jura (French department). I guess the context makes it unlikely for "department" to mean anything other than "département". (And apologies for mispeeling the latter!) Sardanaphalus (talk) 20:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely rename to something or disambiguate as it's horribly ambiguous - I thought it referred to some sort of commune in Jura! Tonywalton Talk 23:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Indian women in civil service

Category:Action Force

Category:Digital Archive Project