Talk:Bizarro fiction

Bizarro poets?

What about listing bizarro poets, also? The Dream People, for ex., publishes such poetry. Should the article name be changed to just 'bizarro' or 'bizarro fiction and poetry' or 'bizarro poetry and prose'? Or maybe given its own article/stub? The poetry is notable, too. Kevin Doran 19:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about fiction. If you feel there is a form of poetry that could be classified as Bizarro you would have to start a seperate article and back it up with evidence. --Killah666 (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

rewrite

I rewrote this article and hope to expand on it within the next few weeks. Avantpunkarmy 21:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

I suggest that the newly-created List of bizarro authors article be merged into the current article. There is simply not enough content to justify a separate article listing authors in this genre. Given that the majority of authors on that list do not have articles of their own, a question of notability could easily be raised---especially strange, I think, given the fact that Avantpunkarmy keeps deleting Jeff T. Kane from the list, even though he does have an article. Simply put, one list, located in this article, of authors with articles would suffice. Other than content issues, the List of bizarro authors has been incorrectly named, given that the title implies that the authors themselves are "bizarro." It should have been titled List of authors of bizarro fiction. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am creating this separate list to appease Jeff T. Kane. I am the head of the Avant Punk Army, the Bizarro street team leader who modifies this wiki on behalf of the bizarro fiction community. There are too many bizarro authors out there to list them all on this page. There are hundreds of bizarro authors out there. These authors should be listed on the new "list of bizarro authors" article. I plan to expand on the "list of bizarro authors" and add many authors who previously were not notable enough to be listed on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avantpunkarmy (talk • contribs) 19:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also plan to create wikipedia pages for the authors listed as "notable" who do not yet have articles. All of these authors have book deals with one of the three publishers who founded the bizarro genre. They are also listed (or will be listed) at the official bizarro website, bizarrocentral.com. Also, I'd like to mention that I am trying to get in touch with Jeff T. Kane to resolve this matter so that we don't make a mess of this wiki. Jeff, please contact me. My email is celsiarazorwire@yahoo.com Avantpunkarmy (talk —Preceding comment was added at 19:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am the editor who moved the page - apologies for incorrectly assigning the title. Whilst a merge discussion is in progress, I am wary of moving it again, but let me know if and when you want it done (on my talk page) and I will resolve the double redirects that it will cause. Fritzpoll (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not merge the two articles. The reason RepublicanJacobite requested the merge is because he believes there is "not enough content to justify a separate article." However, I am in the process of expanding the "List of bizarro authors" article. The list will probably get into the hundreds over time. This page should be reserved for the authors who are most active in the bizarro movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avantpunkarmy (talk • contribs) 21:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, you have no place editing these articles if your motives are to push an egenda or appease somebody. I advise you very strongly to read Wikipedia's conflicts of interest policy and reflect on whether what you are doing is in the best interests of the encyclopedia.

That said, I think the list at present has enough authors on it to justify a seperate article, and that we should assume good faith when you say you intend on expanding it. We should avoid listy content in regular articles where possible. If it were just 4 or 5 authors, they could have a section of prose in this article, but in its current state the list would not be an improvement to the article. However, the list is totally unreferenced, and is very likely to be deleted unless references are provided which support the identification of these individuals as authors of bizarro fiction. I also think the list should be moved to List of authors of bizarro fiction, per RepublicanJacobite. скоморохъ 17:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have checked out the policy (and related policies). I believe much of what I'm doing reflects the best interests of the encyclopedia (because all I want is to make information available to those interested this subject), but perhaps not 100%. I'll be more careful and more neutral in the future. I think List of authors of bizarro fiction would be fine. My only concern about your post is the references. I didn't think lists required references. Related lists such as List of horror fiction writers and List of fantasy authors are also not referenced. I'm not sure if it would be necessary to have references for every name on a list, but I know I could get the references if required.Avantpunkarmy (talk) 20:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct about the two list articles you mention, as they are both unreferenced. However, they should be---for a better example, look at List of dystopian literature, which is not thoroughly researched, but is part of the way there. All articles require references, even lists, and they require references from notable, third-party sources. I am going to remove the merge proposal templates, but I am going to be keeping an eye on both these articles to watch their progress. If I can be of assistance, please ask. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict of Interest

The "Conflict of Interest" tag is pertaining to myself, I'm sure. While reading the policies for what constitutes a conflict of interest, I somewhat fall under the category of "close relation" because I am the leader of the bizarro fiction fan club. I also believe that my statement in the above paragraph, where I mentioned that I am the person who "modifies this wiki on behalf of the bizarro fiction community," probably raised a bunch of red flags. I'd like to state that I made this statement in haste, because I was attempting to establish my authority on this subject to prevent the merge proposal from going through (which I originally thought was an attempt by Jeff T. Kane, who has been vandalizing this article, to keep himself listed as a major bizarro author...my apologies to [User:RepublicanJacobite|RepublicanJacobite], who was only trying to improve the article by suggesting the merge). I just want to mention that I am not working officially or unofficially for the bizarros, and am definitely not trying to turn this article into anything promotional. I just want to help make information concerning this subject available to those who need it. I feel that I am a good third party, but perhaps I am too close to the bizarro authors and publishers to write about it. If any of you suggest that I withdraw from editing this article I will do so.Avantpunkarmy (talk) 00:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to add that I believe this article is important and should not be deleted. News about Bizarro fiction, as a new genre, has been spreading through reader circles around the world, but a lot of people are confused about what it is exactly all about because it is still so new. I believe wikipedia is a good place for people to turn to in order to learn more about bizarro. I believe it will often be viewed. However, I agree that it could be improved, especially with more information from third party resources.Avantpunkarmy (talk) 00:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Third Party References

If I am to withdraw from editing this article, I would like to point out some good third-party references that could be used by those of you interested in editing this or even revamping it.

Oregonian Newspaper issue: Tuesday September 25th 2007. This article was also published online at: Oregon Live. This is an article about bizarro fiction in Portland, which is kind of a mecca for bzarro. It interviews Eraserhead Press owner, Rose O'Keefe, and authors Carlton Mellick III, Jeremy Robert Johnson, and Mykle Hansen. This might also be a good resource for the wikipedia articles on these authors.
The Boys of Bizarro The Oregonian also ran a video interview with Mellick, Hansen, and Johnson that was posted on OregonLive.com. It can be viewed on you tube. I'm not sure if video is an acceptable reference.
Dazed and Confused Magazine Vol. 2, Issue 53...This UK magazine wrote an article on bizarro fiction. It focused mostly on D. Harlan Wilson, but also featured small bios by Steve Aylett, Carlton Mellick III, and John Edward Lawson. The article can be found as a .pdf by clicking: here.
Bizarro Central while this might not be considered a third-party resource, I believe www.bizarrocentral.com is the best place to get information on bizarro fiction because it was designed to be the internet's authority on bizarro fiction. It features profiles on the different bizarro authors, as well as articles written by bizarro authors on bizarro. Perhaps this is not considered a great reference because it is online.

These are just a few that I was able to find right now. I know there are dozens of articles on bizarro fiction, online and off, but it will take some looking. I'll post more here if I find them, as long as this is acceptable wikipedia behavior. I'm not sure if they are good references, but online interviews with bizarro authors are abundant and easy to find. There is also a lot of biographical information published in the authors' books, especially The Bizarro Starter Kit series which features profiles on the authors and defines what bizarro fiction is all about. Again, I'm not sure if these are considered good references, but I normally would have assumed they are. Avantpunkarmy (talk) 00:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a quotation from a review of the Bizarro movement in the third-party 3:AM Magazine. I've also added notices of several literary competitions and citations of the Bizarro books and authors who have won them. I'm just pitching in on what promises to be an excellent Wikipedia article.Standardbitchew (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering if entities like the World Fantasy Award, the Bram Stoker Award, the 3:AM Magazine Literary Awards, and the Philip K. Dick Award, which I have cited in the article, might count as third-party references. Standardbitchew (talk) 04:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the function of third-parties is to establish the notability of a subject, what could do that better than all these awards being won by the practitioners of Bizarro? Just a thought...Standardbitchew (talk) 05:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Awards like those you have mentioned would certainly lend credibility and notability to a work and its author, but would not necessarily do so for a "movement" in literature. The question that must be asked, or one of the questions, I should say, is were said award-winning authors writing consciously as "bizarro" authors, and were they writing to advance such a movement? A parallel would be Bruce Sterling and William Gibson who, in the '80s and '90s, were consciously writing cyberpunk, and winning awards doing so, and were intentionally advancing the ideas of the movement (so to speak). Can the same be said for the authors discussed in this article? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 18:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These authors all have contributed consciously to the Bizarro movement: they all have books published by at least one of the canonical Bizarro presses. If, as you say, the awards lend credibility and notability to the authors, doesn't their choice to write books in the genre do the same for Bizarro? We have a satyr play by Euripides and some comedies by Shakespeare, yet we invoke their names in extolling the genre of tragedy.Standardbitchew (talk) 21:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the backs of the books by these authors, there are words that read "File Under Bizarro Fiction." They were definitely published to contribute to the bizarro genre, but we can only assume that they were also written for the bizarro genre.Avantpunkarmy (talk) 03:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fleshing out even further this article's array of third-party references, I have added notice and citation from the reliable third-party publication, Dazed and Confused, a major print magazine out of London, and also a substantial statement extolling Bizarro from the bestselling author-screenwriter John Skipp.--Standardbitchew (talk) 22:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're doing an excellent job. This article is really fleshing out nicely. Avantpunkarmy (talk) 03:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Major authors"

I deleted the hidden comment in the "major authors" section. Wikipedia has its own rules on inclusion of content in articles, and a hidden comment informing an editor that they may only add content specified by an external site simply will not fly. Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 20:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I meant to take that out. Avantpunkarmy (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Templates

Removing "primary sources," "notabiltiy" and "conflict of interest" templates, for the following reasons:

The article now has ample third-party references demonstrating notability.
The editor with the ostensible conflict of interest gracefully bowed out some time ago, and the article has meanwhile thriven and grown under the expert and objective counsels of RepublicanJacobite.--Phaborinosarles (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]