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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kye2789 (talk | contribs) at 20:51, 19 March 2008 (→A More Perfect Union). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Previous non-admin close rationale below, AfD reopened per DRV request

The result was Speedy keep. Speedy as in fast. SNOW and IAR. Rationale. There is no real reason to delete. Article violates no policy, and is well sourced. Proper title so no merge. Stand alone so no redirect. Consensus has been reached thus far. No reason to prolong. Also, so this is 100% clear, and no one feels its necessary to provoke argument over this close, I will cite, albeit, and essay.

  • Snowball clause closes, where it is absolutely obvious that no other outcome other than keep is possible. Recommended criteria to use: (a) six or more participants have supported keeping the page;
Taken from Appropriate closures: bullet point three on NAC. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 08:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A More Perfect Union

A More Perfect Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

I do not believe this speech is notable enough to warrant its own page. The relevant material could be merged into Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, where it already receives substantial attention. Wikipedia is not a news source, and it is relatively likely the notability surrounding this speech is only temporary. The page should be deleted RWR8189 (talk) 03:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is premature to delete A More Perfect Union. Several commentators, including Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, have compared it to Martin Luther King Jr.'s I Have a Dream. Randi Rhodes on Air America thinks this speech might be one for the history books. Granted, such judgments are premature, but the deletion of the A More Perfect Union article is also more premature. Let's give it a few weeks and see if the speech makes a lasting impact. --Dr.enh (talk) 04:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If someone in America and they have watched channels other than Nikelodeon and MTV, they know the speech by it's title. I've been bombarded with it almost constantly here. Celarnor Talk to me 05:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in America and watching channels other than Nickelodeon and MTV, and I know the speech by its title only because I participated in this AfD. Note that the New York Times transcript of the speech is titled "Barack Obama's Speech on Race", not "A More Perfect Union", and the introductory sentence says: The following is the text as prepared for delivery of Senator Barack Obama’s speech on race in Philadelphia, as provided by his presidential campaign. Note that the title is not identified as such. The NYT's main article about the speech doesn't mention the title at all. Maybe this speech will turn out to be historically notable, and maybe this will be the title under which it becomes historically known. But its title is not yet as famous as implied above. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I know it because it was being discussed on CNN as such while I was in the dining commons here on campus, the pdf available on our school's Promethus system is "amoreperfectunion-obama.pdf" with bold text at the top, there was a debate about it in the bookstore and library when I went to go pick up this quarter's textbooks. It was in the Wall Street Journal with the name. The consensus of the name is quite clear. Celarnor Talk to me 07:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obama's website calls it "A More Perfect Union". I think eventually more news outlets will pick up on that, especially after they look it up on Wikipedia and see that we've called it that. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although most people do not know the speech by its title, it has still received an incredible amount of news attention, nonetheless. It is very likely, when looking at the very favorable news coverage, that the speech will have a lasting impact, especially if Barack Obama receives the nomination. Many in the news media are covering it as if it is a notable event, thus the article should be kept until it is proven otherwise. --damario0 (talk) 04:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Dr.enh. Yeah, I was very hesitant to create an article for this speech, but I also feel that this a very significant speech that needs to be chronicled in WP. You say this isn't notable? Turn on the TV! Google Obama in the news category. People all over are talking about this. It's all over the news. It's all over the Internet. I went to the grocery store and saw cashiers and customers talking about it. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT SPEECH. Again, yes I know it was probably too early for me to create the article, but I believe that over time, this speech is going to be a landmark for not only Obama's presidential campaign, but also the state of America heading into the election even if Obama doesn't make it. We should give this article time, and you will all see why this article is well deserving of an article on Wikipedia. As for Metropolitan90, this is the official title of the speech. It is referred to as this title on his official website listing, as well as all of the media coverage. I mean, come on, if an article like "Mel Gibson DUI incident" or "Posh and Becks" have their own Wikipedia articles, why is this being considered to be deleted? This is a lot more interesting, historic, and relevant than Mel Gibson and a one-time drinking binge and a burned-out soccer player that is married to a Spice Girl. KEEP THIS ARTICLE I don't mean to be offensive while defensive, I'm just stating my case. Thanks. conman33 (. . .talk) 04:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The notability guidelines clearly state that a short burst of news coverage does not automatically confer notability. In the context of a nearly two year long political campaign, it is likely that this speech will be regarded as little more than a footnote or "flavor of the day" news coverage in the long-term.--RWR8189 (talk) 05:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would say it is highly unlikely that, whatever happens in this campaign, this speech will be merely a "footnote." It is far more likely that passages from it will appear in future history textbooks, even if Obama loses the nomination.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hillary's "tears" were temporarily notable. They get no article. So much of political news in particular is fleeting.--Loodog (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clinton's tears were not notable. For one thing, "she cried after a momentous primary/caucus" IS notable; however, it doesn't deserve it's own article unless a vast amount of analysis shows up around it enough to give it substantial prose beyond what appears in her campaign page. That is the case here; the speech is notable now, will continue to be so, and as an encyclopedia, it should be kept. Celarnor Talk to me 19:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The absence of potential articles is no reason in itself to delete an existing article. Also, I believe the intention behind "not news" is to prevent every petty theft, rain shower, and campaign stop from getting its own article just because it was briefly mentioned in local or national media. It is not to prevent genuinely notable subjects from being written about. Joshdboz (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's also to prevent Wikinews from being supplanted by Wikipedia. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This speech is garnering much media attention, and is important to Senator Obama's campaign. (Yeah, I basically just said "me too" to the above comment; it's a valid point though.) Yonisyuumei (talk) 06:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Unfortunately we do not have WP:SPEECH, a policy on the notability of speeches, but I think we can use the general guideline at WP:N since notability is the only important question here. That guideline says, "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." I believe this article easily passes that bar. The lead editorial in today's New York Times and Washington Post (the two major papers in the U.S.) are about that speech (and several columnists in both papers weigh in on it as well). In fact it will probably be the topic of editorials in most papers in the U.S. and indeed even in some other parts of the world. There has been an enormous outpouring of commentary all over the blogosphere, and every respectable news publication will discuss this in detail in the next day and indeed beyond (A Google News search for "Obama" and "A More Perfect Union" reveals upwards of 2,000 news stories). In short, the topic has already received (and indeed will receive much more) significant coverage in reliable sources and therefore is notable. Many are already comparing this to speeches by Kennedy, FDR, and Lincoln, and I can guarantee you this speech will be discussed in history classes in the future. Our article looks to be off to a good start, and a few years from now I'd bet we'll have enough material to turn this into a featured article.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linking to a policy without comment is not much of a comment. My discussion of the future is obviously not the rationale for why I think this should be kept, it was an additional thought I added at the end which I think is worthy of consideration though not the reason this is a keeper. As I clearly stated, the reason this should be kept is because it easily passes our notability guidelines at WP:N. Could you explain to me how it does not? That is the only thing at issue here.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is a speech that will transcend the presidential campaign that Obama is currently engaged in. The parts about the Rev. Wright might not be notable, and if the speech were focused on that controversy exclusively, I would support deletion. But the scope of Obama's speech expands beyond the controversy to capture a snapshot of race relations as they are today. This one will be remembered and looked back upon in the months and years ahead. - Cg-realms (talk) 02:11, 19 March 2008 (EDT)
Thank you everyone. I'm glad I'm not alone in this and that the article is "notable" to others. conman33 (. . .talk) 06:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cg-realms, I agree. I hope that we can expand and focus more on the speech instead of the controversy. So far, I'm really the only one who has substantially helped to beef this article up, so it's gonna take some more effort. conman33 (. . .talk) 06:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You used the future tense. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We don't include entries on the basis of expected notability, since there's no science to that kind of prediction. It's a bunch of news commentators trying to strike up interest in their story.--Loodog (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. It is certainly immediately notable, and I've heard many a commentator say they expect it to be memorable in the years to come. Until we're better able to determine that, we should at least give the article a chance to mature and develop before making premature judgments. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The only applicable guideline here, due to the topic at hand, is WP:NOTE - and this article satisfies it with aplomb. Absolutely no reason to delete. The references speak for itself. Wisdom89 (T / C) 07:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A short burst? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that policy is intended to address the fact that any event will be followed by at least some news posts. Front-page editorials in multiple national papers aren't quite the Podunk Gazette, nor is this a "short burst" by normal media standards. MMZach (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. You've got to be kidding me. Tlogmer ( talk / contributions ) 07:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems like news reporting to me, but WP:NOT#NEWS has not been rescinded. Probably far too soon to say whether this is of any significance or importance. Could well prove to be just another boring campaign speech. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. See my closing rationale at the top of this page. And if possible, someone speedy keep this. Time shouldnt matter when a keep is clear, and consensus is reached. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 15:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep - I'm going to be frank here, and risk crossing the AGF line. The nominator's "list of articles I have proposed for deletion" shows very strong political tendencies, and I am not convinced of the good faith of this nomination. This speech is a major campaign event, and its contents and media prominence alone are a matter of historical precedent and importance. It has already received more coverage than any American political speech since, well, Obama's 2004 keynote address. I can't think of any good reason to delete the article - just political ones. Mr. IP (talk) 15:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete - The media flares up over any new development in the Clinton-Obama race, inventing notability where there is none. Would we create an article for Hillary's "tears", which was also temporarily notable? When it comes down to it, it's just some politician's speech among countless others by countless other politicians, albeit moving. This is Obama's response to a controversy, not I Have a Dream.--Loodog (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speeches worthy of coverage range from I Have a Dream to Checkers speech. This isn't some stump speech - this is a major and prominent address on race, given in terms of rare frankness, at a major turning point in a historic presidential campaign. My only concern here is a "crystal ball" violation, wherein we attribute historical prominence to a speech before history has passed judgment - but in this case, I think we are well served by having an article right now, and will almost certainly continue to be well served in the future. Mr. IP (talk) 15:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This !vote is based on opinion, not policy. The speech is clearly notable given our guidelines at WP:N and no delete commenter has been able to argue otherwise. Loodog may think "it's just some politician's speech among countless others by countless other politicians," but that is not at all what dozens and dozens of news articles, politicians, religious leaders, and political commentators who are commenting on the historic nature of this speech think. Those are reliable sources (a number of which are already cited in the article) and we base our decision on whether to keep this or not on the depth of coverage in those sources (which is incredibly extensive) not on the fact that a few editors here think this was just "some speech." They are entitled to that opinion, but it has no bearing on this discussion, which should revolve solely around the question of notability as described in our notability guidelines.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. IP's comparison to the Checkers speech is appropriate, I think. There is a precedent of including unique and notable campaign speeches. I would also draw comparisons to the Pound cake speech, since it is also regarded as a significant turning point in race relations in the United States. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep -Widely considered the most important speech of a historically significant campaign. Notability is well-established. That it feels awkward to title the article based on the title of the speech, that's only bc the article already does a good job of contextualizing the event. Balonkey (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep This is a well-written article about a major political speech that is still having repercussions. There is clearly too much material to reasonably merge. Mr. IP also brings up a serious issue which is made all the more troubling given the nominator's userpage. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE This is speech which, if it has any relevance at all, should be on the Obama bio --Fovean Author (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have been urging a greater degree of coverage of the Wright issue in the Obama article. Given the extent to which that article has already been given over to the Wright issue, it makes sense to have a separate page here in order to avoid bloat, no? Mr. IP (talk) 16:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's an anomaly. My newspaper has the entire speech printed, plus pages of commentary. The official video has already gotten over one million hits on YouTube. Frankly, Wikipedia is going to look silly for having a deletion template on the article while the speech is getting so much attention. Zagalejo^^^ 17:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • USA Today featured it as their cover story. My personal local newspaper covered the fifth anniversary of the Iraq War (which is today), and I suspect that story is the reason it's not on everyone's front page today. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 17:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:UNDUE does not apply. The article can exist without putting undue political weight on the side of Obama. WP:SOAP is a desperate grasp at finding something to delete this under. As a presidential candidate, he has far more effective ways of getting his extremely notable speech to people other than sites that try to get it deleted simply because they have it on their site and don't believe it should be there. It's being covered by pretty much anything that does news. The only thing left is WP:NOT#NEWS, and it's already become something more than just a speech. Commentators are analyzing it to death, so it's more than just the speech in and of itself. Cheers. Celarnor Talk to me 18:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep this subject has been the center of non-trivial coverage from hundreds of major and minor media sources around the world. Not only has this coveraged been focused on the event itself, but its effects on a major presidential campaign and a major subject of division in America. Not only that, but the amount of relevant and verifiable information with regard to the speech means it could not be fully included in any existing article. Joshdboz (talk) 16:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - A very notable speech, highly covered in the American Media. There is absolutely no reason to delete the article, only to improve the article as it is very base compared to the speech's notability. KV(Talk) 17:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- Are we to make an article for every flash in the pan?--Die4Dixie 17:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The question here is notability. Could you please explain how this speech does not meet our guidelines for notability? Because it seems obvious that it does, and the only real argument for deletion is that it does not. Could you please elaborate?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if the user is aware of it, but WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS WP:ATA#CRYSTAL, WP:IDONTLIKEIT obviously come into play here. Wisdom89 (T / C) 18:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from this being just a vote, Speedy merge isn't an option unless it's a bad faith nomination (which it could be; see others above me) and it is abundantly obvious that it belongs within another article and no one disagrees with you. In this case, most everyone disagrees with you. Celarnor Talk to me 19:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I'm on the other side of the atlantic, and I never even heard of this. Perhaps it appears notable depending on your politics and that is why there are two strong opinions being voiced here. For me, and I've no axe to grind either way, the closing admin should pay close attention to WP:SOAPBOX and the fact that a short burst of media attention does not make a speech notable. Bardcom (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:IDONTKNOWIT. Wisdom89 (T / C) 19:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is notable because it has garnered wide media attention, not because of a given person's political leanings. I'm not even a member of a political party; heck, I didn't vote in our primaries because my party didn't front a candidate. WP:SOAP seems suspiciously like a desperate grab at trying to come up with something to delete this under. The candidate has much better ways to advertise himself politically. Also, apart from that, AfDs are not for deletions because of the content of an article unless it is unsourced negative information about a living person. For things with content that needs to be fixed, there are numerous tags that can be applied to the article. Or you can be bold and fix percieved errors yourself. Celarnor Talk to me 19:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it'd be better to organize arguments along main points:

  1. Continued Notability after this election
  2. WP:CRYSTAL being violated in assumption of relevance on the future (e.g. "historic")
  3. WP:NOT#NEWS being violated
  4. Possible US-centrism and assumption of relevance in the rest of the world

If people would reply along these points, we can get each to consensus maybe faster.--Loodog (talk) 19:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We've already done that, but for the sake of consensus, I'll coalesce everything here.
  1. Wikipedia isn't crystal ball. You can't say it will be less notable later, since you don't know that. It is, however, notable now, judging by the massive amount of media coverage and analysis.
  2. See above point.
  3. WP:NOT#NEWS is to prevent fleeting things like the news story about the woman with 12 cats who got evicted and is suing the landlord from becoming notable. It isn't intended for large-scale events like this.
  4. WP does not know borders. If it is notable and relevant somewhere, then it deserves placement.

Cheers. Celarnor Talk to me 19:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • To expand on Celarnor's point, if we have a US-centric bias the solution is to add more similar articles about major speeches by major candidates in other countries, not delete this one. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep -- This page makes no sense. The speech is historic; in fact, I went to Wikipedia to find a link to the text of the speech to add onto my own website. (However, I am boggled by the fact that the only method provided is to directly edit this 30KB document of prior comments !! Tried other links, such as Talk and they were blind alleys.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genordell (talk • contribs) 20:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I thought about this one and it does seem that this speech will stay notable throughout the rest of the presidential election, and probably beyond. Especially if this does end up becoming the major turning point for the Obama campaign. (NOTE:I do not support the obama campaign) --ChetblongTalkSign 20:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the title is official. It is so listed on his own web site. Celarnor Talk to me 20:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I believe this should be merged with Obama's campaign article. The fact of the matter is, it's a part of a presidential campaign. To compare it to other notable speeches such as "I Have a Dream" is inappropriate and diminishes their significance. There have been many speeches made by presidential candidates in the past. This is just another. Nevertheless, if, after several weeks, it becomes apparent that this speech is significant both to his campaign and to history, then it should be made into it's own article. But currently this is not yet the apparent case, and therefore should be merged with Obama's campaign article.
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