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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Albamuth (talk | contribs) at 03:58, 31 July 2005 (→Letter to Socialists). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Talk archives

If you want to talk about Anarcho-Capitalism (A-C), make sure you take a look at past discussions about it. Same goes for other controversial topics.--albamuth 21:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Open tasks

Template:AnarchismOpenTask

No Reason for Debate

This entry has been the subject of edit wars for some time. It's time for the so-called "anarcho-capitalists" to stick to their own page and leave this entry alone. Anarcho-capitalism has never been a part of anarchism and it is simply factually incorrect for this entry to treat anarcho-capitalism with any seriousness. The Anarchist FAQ has throroughly debunked anarcho-capitalism as an ideology. Just because a few misguided individuals sabotage this entry with their nonsense about anarcho-capitalism doesn't mean that Wikipedia should allow false information to be posted as a live entry. People can check any anthology of anarchist writings at your library and find nothing about anarcho-capitalism. It has nothing to do with anarchism. There is no need to qualify anarchism as consisting of "left anarchism" vs. "anarcho-capitalism." Please get the correct version of this article online without the section about anarcho-capitalism. A link to the anarcho-capitalism section would be understandable, but a section in this version on anarcho-capitalism is simply inaccurate. -- Chuck0, Infoshop.org and Radical Reference

Chuck0

Time to Unprotect the Page

It says in [Wikipedia:Protection policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy] that "temporarily protected pages should not be left protected for very long." Well, it's been protected for very long, so this protection is in violation of Wikipedia policy. Consensus is not going to happen, obviously. Edit warring is probably the best way to go. RJII 16:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I was the one who requested protection of the Neutral Disambiguation Page, not knowing at the time that the admin was biased toward the socialist version. I'd rather have an edit war than the really stupid version up there right now. Hogeye 17:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You forgot both sides had requested protection, not just you (in fact, the other side requested first: [1] and [2]). And I'm biased against edit wars, not towards a specific version of this page. That said, if both sides want it unprotected, I will unprotect it; you can also ask on WP:RFPP for unprotection. I'm also annoyed at it being protected for this long (I dislike keeping pages protected for too long, they grow stale), but it's still better than an edit war. --cesarb 17:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is anyone else disturbed by RJII's "edit wars are good" theory? Seems pretty clear he's just here to cause trouble. Gave up arguing rationally about two weeks ago. Oh well. If worse comes to worst, I'm sure I have more free time than you and thus have the edge in a war of attrition :P But I assure you I'll do anything to avoid this course. --Tothebarricades 19:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not here to "cause trouble" at all. I'm here to help correct the article. If that's troubling to you, that's unfortunate. Either way, whether it's interminable debate, or endless editing, there will be no resolution. There will always be anarchists who think somebody else's school of anarchism is not real anarchism (as in the traditional individualists who held that communist and syndicalist forms were not anarchism). So, the best we can do is edit endlessly without resolution. A dynamic article is better than a stagnant one. The point of Wikipedia is not for writers to appease other, but to provide dynamic, living articles, that anyone can edit. I, for one, will not the sacrifice quality and accuracy of an article for the sake of avoiding conflict or avoiding "causing trouble." If anyone would, then they shouldn't be editing an article. RJII 20:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep it protected, please, until some sort of agreement is made about how to resolve these content disputes. I would like to see more respondants to the survey. How can we call more attention to it? Perhaps we should just wait another week for more commentary? --albamuth 22:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wanted it unprotected too, until I saw the capitalists want it unproctected as well, now I'm not so sure. Keep it protected because they'll surely go back to their vandalistic ways. The current page isn't perfect, but it's better than a ton of people who visit this page every day getting an entirely and utterly completely false view of what anarchism is. --Fatal 22:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Free the Article! Remove the freeze. The hierarchy at Wikipedia is oppressing me by not allowing edits.

Anarchism is anarchistic, so its entry is, too, nu?

No wonder anarchism leads to edit wars! Doing your own thing generates disagreements! This is because people are different! Viva la difference! — Rickyrab | Talk 22:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well argument is the stuff of life - I have no problem discussing, collaborating with other wikipedians on this. But on this page for the last few months we have had the same 2 or 3 anarcho-capitalists pushing their POV and UNPROVEN claim that A/C is entered in the article as a 'school' or substantial subsection. Folk coming in have only really experienced this and little discussion on the other parts of the article. IMHO it is classic trolling as A/C's are abusive.,.. uncooperative and just go on POV rants without refering to unbias sources or evidence. -max rspct 22:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sort of like how the surrealism talk page is surrealistic (just look at it, it's insane). I don't have a problem with people having different views - very little of my discussion here even goes into anarcho-capitalism, more a concern about the quality of the article --Tothebarricades 23:08, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is just strange that the anti-property anarchists guard the page like it is their property, and it is the property anarchists that are willing to share and share alike. It looks like "public property" in the gift economy will be the object of considerable conflict.--Silverback 00:02, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like the problem in hand is being avoided by making personal attacks that have no basis in fact. I <3 petty attacks on peoples' integrity. Get a life. --Tothebarricades 02:05, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
If integrity mattered, the gift economy theory, would be a little more fleshed out. As it stands now, it is little more than a mantra. I suspect most participants in the anti-globalist movement are just exploiting an excuse to misbehave and enjoy a sense of belonging to a counter-culture, but there should still be some constructive thinkers able to contribute to gift economy theory, so that it can be subjected to critical analysis. There is not enough there to shake a stick at, nonetheless call an "economy".--Silverback 02:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
Anarchism has nothing to do with chaos, sloppiness, disorder or anything else that this "anarcho"-capitalist POV war is demonstrating. Once the article gets to the point where that is clear I will be satisfied. --Bk0 02:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That is one thing we can agree on, I doubt any of us would be interested in anarchism if it was. The question is, are some anarchists intending a society that can only exist if all dissent is coercively purged, or has high levels of social ostracism. Many who think they would be the ones to survive the purge, may be like the vietcong dupes who thought they were fighting for something noble and ended up getting re-education camps, or worse.--Silverback 03:02, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
I for one am opposed to all attempts to institute newspeak such as using "left-anarchism/anarcho-socialism" when one simply means "anarchist." What re-education camps do you speak of? Do you know what you're talking about? --albamuth 12:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Could you please tone down the crazy ranting? This page would have a lot fewer than 19 archives if the Wikipedia is not a soapbox suggestion was taken more seriously. --Tothebarricades 03:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Please Stop

Let the defenders of anarcho-capitalism have a section in the Anarchism topic that referes to a page on which they can expound on it.

Let the Socialist-Anarchist defenders have the same.

Let the Anarchism page be the index to the Anarchism content in Wikipedia as it once was.

--Juanco

The article already have disambig in the form of the message This article describes a range of political philosophies that oppose the state and capitalism. For other uses, see anarchism (disambiguation). That should work fine. // Liftarn


I agree with Juanco. Let's go back to the following Neutral Disambiguation Page and avoid edit wars.

Anarchism is derived from the Greek αναρχία ("without archons (rulers)"). Thus "anarchism," in its most general meaning, is the philosophy or belief that rulership is unnecessary and should be abolished. For other usages, see anarchism (disambiguation).

Anarchism may mean:

  • Anarchism (anti-state) - the theory or doctrine that all forms of government are unnecessary, oppressive, and undesirable and should be abolished.
  • Anarchism (socialist) - philosophies, movements, and ideologies that advocate the abolition of capitalist exploitation and all other forms of authority.

Hogeye 15:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you indicate - the original Greek meaning does not literally apply to the Anarchist philosophy and movement. But the rest is incorrect - No encyclopedia or textbook on the subject defines there being two camps. The only editors being divisive on this page are the Anarcho-capitalists such as yourself ..who want anarchism split up to satisfy your own propagandic needs. max rspct 17:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Max> "The original Greek meaning does not literally apply to the Anarchist philosophy and movement."
Are we reading the same thing? The Greek etymological meaning is exactly the same meaning as today - without rulers, i.e. without a State (in more modern terms.)
Max> "No encyclopedia or textbook on the subject defines there being two camps."
Right. Mainly because there is a distinct owner of the article, and in most cases one writer. In Wiki, there are a bunch of authors with no/contested ownership, so many straightforward propositions become battlefields.
Max> "The only editors being divisive on this page are the Anarcho-capitalists such as yourself..."
Get real, Max. The anarcho-socialists are just as intransigent. They too refuse to budge an inch on the definition of anarchism, and denigrate all objective sources such as dictionaries and even the words of their own luminaries. What you're really saying is that the anarcho-socialist clique temporarily had control of the article until people with a different point of view showed up again.

19 archives and counting

Hey, has anybody else read the 1st archive for this talk page, back in 2002? They were debating Anarcho-capitalism then too, and we have been, for 3yrs now! Can we just make the needed edits (NPOV, inclusion of all verifiable POV's, disambig page...) and put this one to rest already?!? Sam Spade 17:29, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sure, as long as your conception of NPOV is actually neutral ;) --Tothebarricades 18:07, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Question: How can I pull up a 2002 version of the anarchism article from History without hitting "next 50" a thousand times? Hogeye 19:37, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just change the limit= and offset= values on the URL you get after clicking "next 50". You can jump thousands of edits that quickly that way. Sadly, there's no way of guessing how many you have to jump; do a binary search to find them. --cesarb 19:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Here. Notice the history ends rather abruptly; the article is even older than that, but the history was lost when the software was upgraded to the current one (in fact, the older software lost the history after some time; the upgrade didn't have much to preserve). See Wikipedia:Usemod article histories for details. Probably there was talk earlier than 2002 too, also lost. --cesarb 19:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Cesar. Of interest: it didn't start out claiming that anarchism was anti-capitalist, as today's ansoc partisans are demanding. It used the commonality of all anarchisms approach - i.e. anarchism is anti-statist but not necessarily anti-capitalist. "b" in the survey. The original def was:
Anarchism is the political theory that advocates the abolition of all forms of government. The word anarchism derives from Greek roots an (no) and archos (ruler).
Hogeye 20:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And the rest of the article remained even-handed in its discussion of capitalist and socialist varieties of anarchism. I guess it was later that the socialists moved in en masse and shifted the focus of the article. *Dan* 20:38, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
The question is whats to be done, both here, and in other articles where a POV lobby group has taken over... Thats why their considering a content arbitration commitee, but I'm not sure thats the right approach... what would an anarchist do? ;) Sam Spade 21:27, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's amazing to me how the Anarchism article has gone downhill over time. This article from 23 Jun 2002 is a hundred times better than the current article. One way that it's cleaner is that, instead of talking about every little sub-movement, it just discusses the three major divisions: libertarian socialism, anarcho-capitalism, and individualist anarchism.
The Swiss cantons of old simply divided when faced with fundamental differences (e.g. Reformation.) There are semi-independent half-cantons and even (I think) quarter cantons. The obvious way to solve these definitional disputes is to split the question, letting each faction have their way in their own article. That's why I still support the Neutral Disambiguation Page. Maybe others will figure it out after three more years of edit wars... Hogeye 21:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. The old version even had a section on individualist anarchism, which the POV collectivists have taken upon themselves to censor in subsequent versions. RJII 23:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes the big history is interesting. What's wrong with the current Individualist anarchist section? It has similarities with a-C which also has a hefty section. max rspct 00:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) the article is in fairly good shape at the moment no? max rspct 00:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What individualist anarchist section? There isn't one. It isn't included as a school of anarchism. It's just mentioned in the internal conflicts section. The POV collectivist anarchists took the section out, apparently since the individualists support private property and a market economy. RJII 00:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LOOK = Individualism vs. collectivism:
While most anarchists favor collective property, some, such as individualist anarchists of historical note support a right to private property. These include Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner. Tucker argues that collectivism in property is absurd: "That there is an entity known as the community which is the rightful owner of all land, Anarchists deny...I...maintain that ‘the community’ is a non-entity, that it has no existence..." He was particularly adamant in his opposition to "communism," even to the point of asserting that those who opposed a right to private property were not anarchists: "Anarchism is a word without meaning, unless it includes the liberty of the individual to control his product or whatever his product has brought him through exchange in a free market—that is, private property. Whoever denies private property is of necessity an Archist." However, these individuals opposed property titles to unused land.

Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner, Tucker opposed property titles to unused land? DON'T SOUND LIKE anarcho-capitalists TO ME -max rspct 09:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm the one who wrote that section in "Internal conflicts" since the POV collectivists anarchists didn't want individualist anarchism included as a school of anarchism. No one is saying that traditional individualist anarchists are anarcho-capitalists. I don't know what you're talking about. RJII 14:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The former Anarchism (anti-state) article included the individualist anarchists. Naturally. With a big ol' picture of Lysander. Hogeye 00:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Summary of Arguments / Proposals

Let me try to summarize the arguments the two editorial factions have made (I invite others to try the same or add to the list, just place commentary afterwards). This is a summary, so try to make each comment/bullet entry as BRIEF as possible (one sentence!) and please do not erase/revise others' entries. Use a comments section below for further discussion, please. Again, this is supposed to be a summary of arguments made, not a section for new ones. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) I'm going to go ahead and edit some of the longer comments (move them to comment section, and put in a one-sentence placeholder) --albamuth 12:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pro Anarcho-Capitalist Arguments

  • Gustave de Molinari was first anarcho-capitalist, in 1849
invalid - wikipedia:no_original_research albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid - research by Hoselitz Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
questionable - Molinari was pretty damn close, whether or not he was an ancap per se is open to interpretation. I don't think this is a very important question for this page, though. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Individualist anarchism will be included as a school of anarchism, and anarcho-capitalism will as well by the same basic reasoning
refuted - individualists were against capitalism and were part of the anarchist movement albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
true since both schools are anarchist (anti-state). Anarchism is compatable with all economic and property systems consistent with statelessness. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
true Even though traditional individualist anarchism opposes collectivist anarchism (left anarchism) it's still anarchism. Template:Fn RJII 02:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
false individualist anarchists still opposed capitalism -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
false what CyM said. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
prolly not - Individualist anarchism (by which I mean Benjamin-Tucker-ism) is considered "anarchist" by movement anarchists apparently because it derives in large part from Proudhon, which is not really true of ancaps. This is a genetic relationship, so any phenotypic similarity between the two philosophies is a separate question. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Indiv. were for private property, and so are anarcho-capitalists. Individualists are considered anarchists, so then should anarcho-capitalists.
invalid equivocation, straw man - nobody is using private property / collective property as a qualifying principle. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
irrelevant since anarchism specifies no particular economic system. See previous. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
irrelevant but interesting because traditional individualist anarchists believed that those who opposed private property were not anarchists. The same type of thing is happening with collectivist anarchists and anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid individualists were still anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
invalid definition of property is disputed. what CyM said.--harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
same answer as the previous question. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • X, Y, and Z encyclopedias/dictionaries only say that anarchism is against the State.
invalid - biased sample, perhaps even appeal to unsound authority, certainly historian's fallacy. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid The sample was automatically generated by a search engine. Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid dictionaries are not used to define quantum physics, expert sources are necessary here as well -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
invalid dictionaries are well known for providing very limited definitions of terms. Not all encyclopedias are created equal. Some are more biased then others.--harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
partially relevant - this sort of evidence is part of a larger analysis arguing one way or the other on the question of what the most common English meaning of "anarchism" is. It's important evidence, but not definitive by itself. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Proudhon/Emma Goldman/Kropotkin were not against capitalism, so thus A/C should be included...
invalid I believe it to be a false premise but have not bothered to dig up the evidence to the contrary myself. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
strawman No one here has claimed that PP, EG, and PK were not anti-capitalist. Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid - contradictory evidence Template:Fn --Bk0 02:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid - i know that EG and PK at least were clearly anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
silly Everything I know about these three people says that they were anti-capitalist. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
strawman - What Hogeye said. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The way the "anarcho-socialists" are trying to control this article is not very anarchistic.
invalid - ad hominem albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid Ad hom (circumstantial) if it was used as an argument. We agree on one! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
invalid no reason needed IMHO --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Capitalist Anarchism is a 'school' of anarchism
unclear - is the usage of "schools" even appropriate? albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
obviously by definition of anarchism. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid and a very noteable and influential one at that (all without having to riot in the streets). RJII 03:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid it is marginal at best. Template:Fn // Liftarn
invalid - by definition of anarchism, capitalist boss/worker relationship is coercively hierarchal. -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
invalid - while it is an ideology it is not an anarchist one. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid as ad hom - at best an argumentum ab obnoxiousness. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Old versions of the article show strong representation of Anarcho-Capitalism
Probably relatively stronger than recent times, since anarcho-socialists have taken over. Hey, we're back! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
??? - A positive rather than normative statement. Incidentally, I suspect that Wikipedia drifts to the left over time as its original editors were weighted toward computer nerds and Americans. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Notes

Template:Fnb (and proven not original research) by the Hoselitz quote above (among other things). Furthermore, there was some agreement earlier to refer to Molinari (and Godwin) as proto-anarchists rather than anarchists - a solution that perhaps everyone can live with. I.e. Gustav de Molinari was a proto-anarcho-capitalist, and should be included in the history as such. Hogeye

Template:Fnb Likewise, even those anarcho-capitalism opposes collectivist anarchism and some of traditional individualist anarchism, it's still anarchism. The reason for both cases is that both traditional individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism are opposed to the existence of a state and in favor of voluntary relations between individuals. RJII

Template:Fnb The sample was automatically generated by a search engine. I obviously had no control over it. The argument that you should ignore dictionaries and encyclopedias and even past anarchist luminaries and, instead, take a poll, is ... not good scholarship. Hogeye

Template:Fnb The claim is: they defined anarchism as anti-statist, not as anti-capitalist. This is the third time Alba has demonstated a failure to grasp the difference between giving a definition and propounding one's philosophy. Luckily, PP, EG, and PK had a better grasp. Hogeye

Template:Fnb "...we maintain that already now, without waiting for the coming of new phases and forms of the capitalist expoitation of labor, we must work for its abolition. We must, already now, tend to tranfer all that is needed for production—the soil, the mines, the factories, the means of communication, and the means of existence, too—from the hands of the individual capitalist into those of the communities of producers and consumers." — Peter Kropotkin, "Economic Views of Anarchism" (original emphasis). I'd refer to quotes from Proudhon and Emma Goldman as well but it isn't worth my time. Your argument is absurd and invalid. Bk0

Proudhon was soundly anti-capitalist in his productive period; his later transition to "mutualism"/federalism (and, incidentally, Roman Catholicism) is irrelevant to anarchism. Trying to argue that Goldman and Kropotkin were capitalists is laughable. --Bk0 01:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:Fnb From my own experience (yes I know "wikipedia:no_original_research") I can simply count the different types I've met. I have met two CAs, one IA over 500 (at the same time) anarchists (proper) and about 1500-2000 syndicalists (at the same time). That shows how "noteable and influential" that group is. They are about as influential as Flat Earth Society is on modern geology.// Liftarn

Arguments Against Presentation of Anarcho-Capitalism as Anarchist

  • Anarchism was anticapitalist before Rothbard so that's the way it is
invalid - appeal to tradition albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid - just because the various schools of anarchism in the past were against state-backed "capitalism," it does not logically follow that anarchists cannot favor non-state capitalism. Template:Fn RJII 02:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid every major historical movement/revolt under the black flag has been anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
largely invalid - agree with RJII. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • A/C is an oxymoron because anarchism is anticapitalist.
invalid - the dispute is about whether or not anarchism is to be defined as anticapitalist. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid From a basic definition you draw obvious conclusions. Anarchism is against hierarchy, therefore it will be againstc capitalism. Template:Fn --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Petito principi Alba is correct. Claiming "anarchism is against hierarchy" begs the question: Does anarchism mean anti-state or anti-hierarchy? Hogeye 02:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid It is not rule of anarchism to be opposed to "hierarchy." Template:Fn RJII 02:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid a handful of internet sites cannot redefine a global movement -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
valid --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
definitely invalid - agree with Albamuth. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Whether or not they use the word "capitalism," all historical authors but Rothbard are against capitalism as defined by wikipedia.
What about the French physiocrats, and the Economists (Bastiat, Molerini et al)? Not to mention Tucker and Spooner, who had more in common with ancaps than ansocs. Then there's Von Bauerk(sp), Mises, Hayak, and various Old Right folks like Chodorov and HL Mencken and Oppenheimer and ... These guys didn't call themselves "anarchist", but definitely wrote aboout what we today would call anarchist theory. Oh darn, you had me going...
Irrelevant We want to know the definition of anarchism - its essentials and differentia. How "anarchism" was used in the past is not directly relevant. Hogeye 02:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Redundant question - same as the first one. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • All other "schools" of anarchism are mutually compatible; A/C is not.
valid Actually all schools of anarchism are compatible with each other in the broad sense, all major things are the same, like the abolition of hierarchy. Template:Fn --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
false individualists' [are] squarely against the collectivist anarchists and they say so themselves. Template:Fn RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
false All schools are fundamentally opposed to the State, ergo compatible to that extent. Hogeye 02:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
valid all schools have their disagreements and fundamentalists, but ancaps are the only ones who draw almost unanimous mutual exclusivity -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
valid all schools accept that they can not force people to live a certain way (that would be heirarchical) --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
false - It's possibly true that all anarchist schools other than the individualists are compatible (I don't claim to understand their philosophies), and it's possibly true that the individualists are compatible with some or even most other anarchist schools; but I find it very hard to believe that the individualist anarchism is really compatible with every branch of anarchism. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Anarchism is a growing social movement, A/C is not.
invalidWhat's a social movement? If it's rioting in the streets, then no, A/C is not a growing social movement. It's an intellectual one. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
bullshit You haven't compared page hits for LewRockwell.com, compared to, say, Infoshop.org, have you? Hogeye 02:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid The libertarian movement is large and significant, with many publications and organizations. Template:Fn *Dan* 03:29, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
valid handful of websites does not compare to Ukraine, Spain, Seattle and other major historical events and the continuing pace of a global movement -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Ukraine? Spain? Seattle? Other major historical events? Pray tell: to what extent anarchism had any influence on those? In particular: why would anarchists support Yushchenko, a presidential candidate? Spain - which event in Spain in the recent past do you mean? Seattle: stop mingling anti-globalisation and anarchism. Anarchism is just a small part of anti-globalisation; the vast majority of antiglobalists do not oppose the state - on the contrary! Luis rib 21:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
come on CyM, histroical events can be used to say that anarchism is growing now. --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
? Don't know. --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The revolution will not be televised - How could we possibly know what the rate of growth for either group is? - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The proponents of A/C inclusion are a small number of zealous campaigners.
invalid' - appeal to ridicule albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid - First of all, I haven't seen any evidence that those proponents of the inclusion are anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
true // Liftarn
true -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
true--harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
trivially true - The proponents of both sides are a small number of zealous campaigners. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • This list of arguments shows that the pro-A/C faction is wrong (implied).
invalid - possible argument from fallacy, it's not what I'm trying to do, anyhow. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


  • "left-anarchism" and "anarcho-socialism(ists)" are neologisms used in an attempt to re-characterize the anarchist movement.
valid - Phrase(s) coined by Wendy McElroy, not used by other idealogues. They aren't even in the wikpedia list of isms. albamuth 05:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
invalid - That's preposterous. What evidence do you have that McElroy invented the term "left anarchism"? The term has been in wide usage for a long time. An older alternative term for left anarchism, that's been in use for ages, is "collectivist anarchism" [3] RJII 05:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
true // Liftarn
valid collectivist anarchism and "left anarchism" are not the same, as individualists (who used the term) were also anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
The individualists did not use the term "left anarchism." RJII 23:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Invalid - The first part is true: they are neologisms. I don't see how they are used to re-characterize the anarchist movement, most of which has always been both left and socialist. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Notes

Template:Fnb This is a case of people being stuck in the past and wanting to keep everybody else there. Of course, anarcho-capitalism, is incompatible with "traditional anarchism." But, so what? This article is called "Anarchism," not "Traditional Anarchism." RJII

Template:Fnb By the same logic one could say that a flower is defined as a plant, but it isn't defined as growing in dirt and requiring water, so those things aren't necessary. From a basic definition you draw obvious conclusions. Anarchism is against hierarchy, therefore it will be against, for example, sexism. Capitalism is yet another obvious thing that anarchism is against. Fatal

Template:Fnb You think all anarchism is collectivist anarchism. Traditional individualist anarchism does not oppose voluntary boss and employee relationships as long as they stick to the labor theory of value. Involuntary hierarchy is opposed, of course, but not hierarchy in itself unless you're a collectivist anarchist. Maybe you don't think traditional individualist anarchism is real anarchism? If so, you're wrong. RJII

Template:Fnb I don't know the exact numbers involved, but the libertarian movement is large and significant, with many publications and organizations (though, as others have noted, they're less prone to rioting in the streets and smashing things, which makes them less-often in the news; however, the local newscast in my area yesterday specifically mentioned the Libertarian Party as the instigator of a successful move to get the county to repeal its ban on Sunday liquor sales). Within the libertarian movement, there are more minarchists than anarcho-capitalists, but anarcho-capitalism (often referred to within the libertarian movement as simply "anarchism", since that term has the meaning of "anti-government" with no socialist baggage in these circles) is widely recognized as the most pure and extreme form of libertarianism even if most libertarians decline to go that far themselves. *Dan*

Template:Fnb Actually all schools of anarchism are compatible with each other in the broad sense, all major things are the same, like the abolition of hierarchy. And if you're one of these people that likes to use the word government because you think that excludes other hierarchy, i've got news for you, they're synonyms. --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:Fnb Again, as I pointed out above, traditioanl individualist anarchists do not oppose hierarchy as long as it's voluntary. All anarchism is not collectivism. That, together with the individualists' advocacy of private property rights and a market economy pit them squarely against the collectivist anarchists and they say so themselves. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposals for Common Solution

  • Removing 'Schools' approach in favor of developmental history of anarchism as movement and philosophy.
I like this idea, because I thought of it. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't. Why not have both history, then schools?--harrismw 04:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
ToTheBarricades and I had a discussion about this, and it broke down on the question of how anarcho-capitalism should be presented. He wanted no mention until Rothbard (1950s); I insisted that anti-state liberals such as Bastiat and Molinari must be included (1840s). Impasse. Hogeye 04:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Using public survey to settle definition dispute
logical fallacy - argumentum ad numerum even though the anti-A/C side is clearly "winning" albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Neutral Disambiguation Page as proposed by Hogeye
pointless - using anarchism (socialist) just replicates the dispute. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand, Alba. It looks to me like the dispute disappears. The ancaps can tweak their Anarchism (anti-state), and the ansocs can tweak their Anarchism (socialist). Instead of agreeing on a definition (ha!), all we have to do is agree not to vandalize the other article. How is this replicating the dispute? Hogeye 02:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1) having "their article" and "our article" is not the correct solution for Wikipedia, which is supposed to be a collaborative project.
2) it replicates the dispute because editors do not want the neologism of "anarcho-socialism" or "left anarchism" used to describe anarchists. --albamuth 16:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What the hell; I'll call 'em "libertarian socialists" if that makes them happy. Same thing. But perhaps you underestimate the libsoc's ability to refrain from vandalizing the other article.
Realizing that frivolous POV forks are uncool, Wiki might set some limits as follows.
Forks are permissable when:
1) The dispute is regarding the definition of the article, and not merely on the basis of content.
2) There has been ongoing edit wars and page freezes for over 1 year (or whatever specified time period.)
More experienced Wiki editors may come up with better measures for (2), e.g. based on number or rate of reverts or whatever.
Hogeye 00:06, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
pointless - we already have a well written a/c page. So why bother having another one? --harrismw 04:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Harris, the NDP has absolutely nothing to do with the a/c page. It has to do with the general Anarchism article only. The NDP would point to two articles - one about Anarchism using the broad (anti-state) definition, the other with the narrow (anti-state + socialist) definition - and let the Wiki user decide which meaning to choose. Then, instead of having a permanent edit war, we'd have at most the occasional vandalism of the other faction's article. It solves the problem by giving each faction their own playpen. Hogeye 05:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The only people who claim that anarchism is not against all hierarchy are anarco-capitalists. There is already a page describing anarco-capitalism. Thus there is no need for another page. There would be no need for an edit war if you (and others) just accepted that there is a page on anarchism, and a link to something that is simply anti-state. If you have the two pages like you suggest, then there would be a lot of duplication. --harrismw 01:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The only people who claim that anarchism is not anti-state are anarco-socialists. There is already a page describing anarco-socialism. Thus there is no need for another page. There would be no need for an edit war if you (and others) just accepted that there is a page on anarchism, and a link to something that is also anti-capitalist. Hogeye 03:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Instead, have Ancap Article, Anarchism article, and a general anti-statism article. Saswann 30 June 2005 16:32 (UTC)

Comments

Well, almost every argument made by either side is either fallacious or has been refuted. Where does that leave us? I think arbitration may be next. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's say that by some chance we come up with a consensus. What does it matter? As soon as we get the article the way we want it, a few new guys will show up that weren't a part of that consensus that don't agree with how anarcho-capitalism is represented. Then all of a sudden there's a lack of consensus and we edit war again. I'm just pointing out the futility of the whole procedure. I say just unlock the article and let it be. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and happen over and over and over. Recognize the futility of what we're doing. Don't kid yourselves that we're going to come up with any sort of finality here. All of our edits will be erased an infinite number of times over. Enough is enough. Unlock the article so it can be edited. RJII 02:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whatever solution we come up with together will probably be more amenable to a bunch of FNG's that show up than a permanent edit war. Plus it will have more defenders. --albamuth 16:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you seriously using "Appeal to Tradition" against the "anarcho"-capitalists? Haven't you been using this logical fallacy as a cornerstone of your own arguments? The fervency of the ideologies on this page, from both camps, will not "solve" anything. Socialisto 20:44, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You might have noticed that I have found faults with the arguments on both sides. My aim was merely to point out that both sides have been making the same weak arguments over and over. --albamuth 05:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added a new proposal with the following rationale:

  1. To avoid confusion, we all should use consitent language and follow accepted usage.
  2. As it stands now, almost all unqualified uses of the word "anarchism" in wikipedia refers to socialist/collectivist anarchism— even Individualist Anarchism is generally qualified.
  3. If we accept the default unqualified term "anarchism" to refer to a philosophy that is anti-state and anti-capitalist, Ancaps aren't "anarchists" by this usage.
  4. If an anti-capitalist article exists, it follows that an anti-statism article should as well, since the two philosophies aren't by necessity linked.
  5. Since the Ancap definition of "anarchism" is synonymous with anti-statism alone, any relevant Ancap material can be added to that article.

I've been trying to NPOVify the ancap article, and my experience seems to indicate that the whole problem stems from a linguistic dispute over the proper definition of Anarchism. I believe both sides are correct. The English language is not as precise an instrument as we'd like it to be, and any solution is going to be, by definition, arbitrary. I suggest the compromise: Accept the socialist/collectivist defintion of the word "anarchism" as anti-capitalist and anti-statist, and use the more general, accurate, and less confusing term "anti-statism" for the Ancap definition of "anarchism" and allow the anti-statism article be a repository for tracing the history and development of anti-government philosophy in general, leaving this page to trace the history and development of socialist Anarchism. This isn't a matter of one side "winning" the debate, but of establishing a common lexicon where people on both sides might find it possible to write a mutually-agreed-upon articles. Saswann 30 June 2005 16:27 (UTC)

Disambiguation note?

Hogeye/others, since you seem to have admitted the following: 1) There are multiple definitions of anarchism (as is evident by your forking) 2) You wish to avoid an edit war ; on what grounds can you continue to oppose pointing the reader to anarcho-capitalism by means of a disambiguation note? It is standard policy to do this if one meaning is more notable. That anarcho-capitalism is less notable than what you call "Anarchism (socialist)" is clear, no argument necessary.

So I have two questions:

  • 1) Does anyone else see this as a reasonable solution?
  • 2) If not, on what grounds?

If the answer to the second is irrelevant to wikipedia policy and consists solely of biased whining, you will be ignored. --Tothebarricades 01:30, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

TTB> "On what grounds can you continue to oppose pointing the reader to anarcho-capitalism..."
For the umpteenth time: the issue is not about the anarcho-capitalism article. The issue is about the Anarchism article - in particular, whether it uses the broader dictionary definition, or the narrower popular definition. The article Anarchism (anti-state) includes all major schools, socialist and individualist and capitalist alike. The Anarcho-capitalism article is solely about anarcho-capitalism and its history/influences. Click and compare. Not the same at all - different subjects. Hogeye 02:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It appears that the goal of this capitalist POV war is not to present their "anarcho-capitalist" "philosophy" in an acceptable, NPOV manner; but rather to dilute the definition of anarchism to the point where it loses all coherence and connection with anarchist tradition and history. It is reactionary in the extreme and not at all benign. For that reason alone I'm not comfortable with the "Anarchism (socialist)" nonsense. It's not socialist, it's anarchist. --Bk0 01:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"...or the narrower popular definition." - Unfortunately for you, Wikipedia always uses the "narrower popular definition" in favor of dictionary definitions (especially when most people would equate the two, since seeing capitalism as "cooperative" is a little off the wall). And that definition gets the main article. Also, by saying, "Click and compare. Not the same at all - different subjects." - are you saying that you agree with what we were saying all along, i.e. that anarcho-capitalism is an entirely different topic? --Tothebarricades 03:26, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
I'm saying that an overall anarchism article is different from an article about anarcho-capitalism. Obviously. In free-market capitalism, any interaction between two people must be voluntary, and every trade mutually beneficial ex ante. That's cooperation. One man, one veto. That's much more cooperative than majoritarian-ruled communes. Real cooperation is one-on-one. Hogeye 16:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Disambiguation pre-amble

I proposed the following preamble on the VfD page, which was supported by at least one other user. I propose it again here to end the editwar:

The term anarchism is also claimed by anarcho-capitalists. This article deals with the predominant political usage of the term anarchism within international English. For other uses of the word anarchism, see anarchism (disambiguation).

This proposal mirrors the construction used successfully on Libertarianism to end an editwar, where (incidentally) the balance of forces between running dog lackey capitalist-roaders, and damn commo marxist pinkies was the opposite. Fifelfoo 05:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There wasn't much opposition to doing that there. There is opposition here. That's the difference. Personally, I'd rather that article cover all kinds of libertarianism --not just right libertarianism. RJII 14:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would use the wording The term anarchism is also claimed by other groups. This article deals... as it's also claimed by crypto-anarchism and national anarchism. Or for that matter the current one does the job. Why change something that works? // Liftarn
I advocate Fifelfoo's preamble. --albamuth 15:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The only way I'd surrender the the main "Anarchism" article to the socialists would be with an honest preamble, such as the one I suggested before:

Anarchism
The term anarchism also has a standard dictionary definition - see Anarchism (theory). This article deals with the meaning of "anarchism" prominent on US college campuses. For other usages, see Anarchism (disambiguation).

or

Anarchism
Anarchism refers to a broad range of philosophies which oppose the State. For this meaning, see Anarchism (theory). This article deals only with certain anti-capitalist schools of anarchism. For other usages, see Anarchism (disambiguation).

or maybe

Anarchism
This article deals only with anti-capitalist anarchism as defined by Bakunin. For the dictionary meaning of anarchism, as defined by Proudhon, Kropotkin, and Rothbard, see Anarchism (theory). For other usages, see Anarchism (disambiguation).

Hogeye 15:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All of those preambles avoid the real issue, which is the dispute over whether to refer to all writers/followers of anarchism (other than Libertarians) as anarcho-socialists, plus the characterization of any anarchists at all tolerating capitalism. --albamuth 15:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


No more or less than the preamble you endorsed, Alba. The best analog to the Libertarian article is

Anarchism
The term anarchism also has a standard dictionary definition - see Anarchism (theory). This article deals with the meaning of "anarchism" prominent on US college campuses. For other usages, see Anarchism (disambiguation).

Fifelfoo's preamble contains a clearly false claim: "This article deals with the predominant political usage of the term anarchism within international English." We've already shown by looking a random samples of dictionaries that the predominant political usage is anti-state but not anti-capitalist. Hogeye 16:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your dicdef is false due to selection bias. The "web" dictionaries you suggested on the fork VFD were of very poor quality. Additionally they were predominantly English-US. Pocket dictionaries are entirely unsuitable to resolve this issue. Additionally, most dictionaries you cite are poor in terms of contemporary usage. OED3 anarchy 1b is the most useful head for us, being "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without implication of disorder)." whose usage "1892 Daily News 27 Apr. 5/8 Anarchy means the placing in common of all this world's riches to allow each to consume according to his needs. Anarchy is a great family where each will be protected by all and will take whatever he requires." clearly indicates the common usage of anarchy to present a social state with no government and no disorder (OED3 headword: Anarchy, def 1b, usage 1892 Daily News). Compare, if we shall, to anarcho-capitalism (first use 1969) and particularly anarcho-capitalist (first use 1969, usage, "1969 Libertarian 15 May 3/1 The great majority of revolutionary anarcho-capitalists are highly enthusiastic about the Black Panthers and their potential for leading a black liberation movement." (OED3). These somewhat confused neologisms, whose usage has varied so greatly between 1969 and today that the prior sees the eager support of the Black Panthers and the contemporary sees the worship of the oligarchs of private government (or capitalists, for when money speaks with its iron tongue, that is a form of govern-ing). OED3, due to its etymological concern, acts as a very solid dictionary of international English. Anarcho-capitalism, being a usage strongly at odds with the chief social usage of anarchy in English, being, "the placing in common of all this world's riches to allow each to consume according to his needs," AND, as the smaller social movement, AND, as the more recent social movement, should be disambiguated on a seperate page. It is gross cultural imperialism to subsume international English behind the petty English of US college campuses, simply to tar the article with a brush whose colour you detest. Fifelfoo 23:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Fifelfoo's definition from OED3: "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without implication of disorder)."
Even your cherry-picked definition does not rule out capitalism. Anarcho-capitalism is definitely a theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty. Thank you. We can add one more dictionary which agrees that anarchism is anti-statist but not necessarily anti-capitalist. (BTW, first usages are not definitions.) Hogeye 23:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You might try reading an introduction to a definitive etymological dictionary, like OED sometime. Usage is meaning, and the collection of distinctive and widespread usages is a key function of an etymological dictionary. Compilers of etymological dictionaries create definitions through analysis of first usages*, thus meaning that usage is very important. Usages prior to 1892 include solid references to the Narodniki's collectivism, Proudhon in his mutualist moment**, and prior to that, the sainted Godwin. Obviously one may make a case for Godwin's usage; whereas it is difficult to bend mutualism into the ultra-propertarian definition of anarcho-capitalism, let alone the peasant-communalism of the narodniks. [*first usages are important because they indicate the time that a usage became common, current or unique from other usages. Second usages are less important. **While Proudhon supported the interchange of possession in his mutualism, its stringing Odysseus' bow to claim that his mutualism is compatible with the freedom of private property declared by anarcho-capitalists.] Fifelfoo 00:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Bottom line: The definition that you cited supports the anarchism qua anti-statism position. Your appeal to etymology is laughable, since anarchism comes from Greek meaning "without ruler", i.e. without a State. Perhaps you should look a little earlier than 1892 for 'first use.' LOL. BTW, I've already cited Proudhon's first use in 1840 in "What is Property." His def also agrees with the broad tent definition.


Since some of you seem to only be concerned with joking around, here's an attempt at an honest preamble: This article deals with a philosophy which traditionally opposes both capitalism and the State. For other philosophies related to anarchism, such as anarcho-capitalism and national anarchism, see anarchism (disambiguation).
That sounds like a good compromise (even if it does leave out crypto-anarchism). It should be acceptable for all parts. // Liftarn
I won't accept that, because that's not what anarchism is. The title of the article would be wrong. If you want an article about that it would have to be called something like "Traditional anarchism." Anarchism is a cluster of philosophies that oppose to the existence of a state, some of which are mutually compatible and some not. From the premise that anarchists have opposed capitalism in the past, it cannot be deduced that opposition to capitalism is a prerequisite for being an anarchist. That's ancient history. This is today. RJII 19:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"China" is also a type of pottery and the name of several American towns. That doesn't mean having a disambiguation note toward these less notable meanings is somehow factually inaccurate. --Tothebarricades 19:23, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Anarchists, in the past, were not called anarchists because they opposed capitalism, but because they opposed the existence of a state. Now all of a sudden, some of you want to say that to be an anarchists you have to oppose stateless capitalism. There is a grave error in logic in that reasoning. RJII 19:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually they did do that, but what set them apart from other types of socialism was that they also was against a state. // Liftarn

So far, the closest to NPOV is this one:

Anarchism
Anarchism refers to a broad range of philosophies which oppose the State. For this meaning, see Anarchism (theory). This article deals only with certain anti-capitalist schools of anarchism. For other usages, see Anarchism (disambiguation).

Hogeye 23:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I oppose that because "Anarchism" is commonly regarded as referring to theory. It's this article that needs to deal with the various philosophical positions. If anyone wants to talk about a so-called "social movement" of collectivist anarchists, then that's why you would need another article with an alternative name. Anarchism is commonly thought of, first and foremost, as a set of philosophical positions. We shouldn't let a few POV'ers corrupt the meaning of the term to mean a "social movement" (by social movement I take it that they mean people demonstrating in the streets and/or throwing bombs) which necessarily consists only of collectivists anarchists, and necessarily excludes individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism. That's highly non-standard, and "original research." RJII 00:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
CNT? FAI? Nabatniki? Who died at Genoa? Who made Prague into a good showing or a bloody nightmare (depending on your political views)? Who was blamed over Seattle? Who fought the German police in the 1980s? Who died at Haymarket? Anarchism's common usage refers to a social movement. Even within academic disciplinary political studies (three disciplines to mention: Politics, Political Economy and Social History), anarchism refers to a myasma of theory only in the first*, and to a social movement in the two second. [*The obvious critique of the disciplinary methods of politics in the West needs not to be given, the methodological presumptions against engaging social movements is obvious. One could even say that disciplinary politics is what happens when sociology gets first bite of your area of concern.] Fifelfoo 00:31, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica says anarchism is "a cluster of doctrines and attitudes centred on the belief that government is both harmful and unnecessary." If that widely-disemminated and popular dictionary does not give the most common understanding of what is meant by "anarchism" then I don't know what does. Anarchism is most commonly regarded as referring to IDEAS ..PHILOSOPHY. Anarchism is philosophy. A riot is a riot. RJII 00:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Britannica is not a dicationary. Nor is any encyclopedia considered to be of sufficient quality to base any assertion and substantiate it*. Encyclopedia are created with reference to primary sources, and secondary sources of disciplinary qualities, not by reference to other encyclopedia*. A major riot, such as Genoa, has more influence in the substantial definition of a word than a dead-tree encyclopedia. [*Obvious exception: assertions and encyclopedia entries directly related to encyclopedia as a topic.]
A riot in Genoa has absolutely no influence on what anarchism means. A riot is a riot. A riot of anarchists is a riot of anarchists. Rioting itself is not anarchism. Anarchism is the PHILOSOPHY behind these riots. RJII 01:36, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OED, Macquarie, and other major dictionaries of national or international usage have some basis to speak to usage, the quality of their etymological research. An encyclopedia which summarises for the public does not. That's the reason why wiki has a no-original-research policy, and its why Britannica is not a credible source. Fifelfoo 00:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica is an excellent source for attempting to determine what is commonly meant by "anarchism." We should present the most common usage here. The most common usage is, by default, the correct usage. Anarchism most commonly refers to PHILOSOPHY, not the act of rioting in the streets. RJII 01:36, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism (anti-state) article

Those who wish to work on the Anarchism (anti-state) article can do so here: User:Hogeye/Anarchism. This is the article for the editors who take anarchism to mean anti-state (but not necessarily anti-capitalist). If you are an anarcho-socialist (or libertarian socialist or whatever) and think that anarchism is necessarily anti-capitalist, then please do not edit this page.

Eventually, this page will either be Anarchism (anti-state) pointed to by the Neutral Disambiguation Page, or it will be used to overwrite the socialist shit when the edit war resumes on Anarchism.

There's no sense in sitting on our hands while the main Anarchism article is frozen. Let's continue to improve the good article while we're waiting. Hogeye 05:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


You're forking again simply to avoid the issue, as Fifeloo clearly pointed out, because the real issue about usage of "anarchism". Why create anarchism (anti-state) when it's only going to be a replication of anarcho-capitalism? --albamuth 05:58, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We agree that the real issue is a definitional one, not simply a content POV issue. Other than that we are going 'round in circles. Do I need to explain yet again the difference between articles? Hint: Anarchism (anti-state) includes anarcho-syndicalism and national anarchism. Anarcho-capitalism does not. Hogeye 15:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why would you have anarcho-syndicalism on the anarchism article AND the anarchism (anti-state) article? Why would you include national anarchism, which is itself the most ridiculous neologism of them all? I don't see the point. The only difference would be mention of Anarcho-Capitalism, and since it has its own article, then there's no need for anarchism (anti-state). --albamuth 15:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you purposely playing dense? Anarchism (anti-state) will replace the current POV anarchism article as soon as the edit war continues. (Sporadically.) Unless we use the Neutral Disambiguation Page of course. Hogeye 15:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think the most sensible division would be "Anarchism (philosophy)" vs. "Anarchism (movement)", where the distinction would be between philosophical viewpoints that are termed "anarchist", and a specific political/social movement under that name. *Dan* 17:43, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
Does anarcho-syndicalism go in philosophy, movement, or both? It seems like most schools would have almost duplicate entries in both articles, i.e. they are both philosophies and movements. 70.178.26.242 00:01, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Good idea. I'll work a little on that one. I may sit out on any more debate here. You guys let me know when there's a so-called "consensus" so I can start editing this article. RJII 06:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Please do not continue editing this article. You are in clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV doctrine, and your attitude (which can be summarised as "I'm doing this because I'm right and you're and an edit war is the way to prove it" with a side order of "my POV is NPOV, and anyone who dsagrees with me is simply unable to see beyond their limiting POV") is unacceptable. -Dayv 19:53, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It would be highly hypocritical for any partisan of the current edit conflict to finger another for unacceptable edit warring and POV-pushing. - Nat Krause 20:22, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The User:Hogeye/Anarchism article is totally Wikilegal, and (I understand) the proper way to make a scratch article. It is NPOV, unlike the frozen socialist Anarchism article. Dare to compare. The purpose and existence of the User:Hogeye/Anarchism article is open and public: to continue to work on the broad-tent Anarchism article while the official Anarchism article is frozen. Hogeye 20:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it's one of the two common ways of doing a temporary scratch article. The other one is to use a subpage (for instance, Anarchism/Temp). --cesarb 20:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pardon my lack of clarity there. By "this article," I mean the main article on Anarchism (which is, of course, locked at this time), not your scratchpad article. You should, of course, feel free to work on whatever temporary articles you want wherever doing so is appropriate. What I am primarily concerned with is your previous edit and revert warring and your stated intent to continue using these methods once the article is unprotected. While I would not say that the Anarchism article as it currently appears is perfectly free of POV material, your modifications (particularly those of reclassification or deemphasis of forms of anarchism you do not appear to support) come across to me as being far more biased by your own POV. -Dayv 06:27, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposed header

Note - Some anarchists deny that some philosophies that purport to be forms of anarchism are actually so. This article takes no POV on this matter, but presents all ideologies that claim to be forms of anarchism. RJII 06:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is an excellent note, underlining Wiki's policy of neutrality. I'm glad you added it to the Anarchism (anti-state) article. Hogeye 15:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article covers the commonly understood usage of anarchism: to denote a social movement and political philosophy that is opposed to all forms and causes of social, economic, and political hierarchy, including the modern state and capitalism. For other uses of "anarchism" and "anarchy", see anarchism (disambiguation). --albamuth 15:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Support this version, improved by the clarification debates above. Reduced POV elements. Fifelfoo 01:13, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Better. I support this as an improvement over the current stalemate. --Bk0 01:22, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)


That's a wonderful header for the socialist Anarchism article. The broad-tent article starts like this:
This article surveys a broad range of political philosophies that oppose the state. For other usages, see anarchism (disambiguation).
Note - Some anarchists deny that some philosophies that purport to be forms of anarchism are actually so. This article takes no POV on this matter, but presents all ideologies that claim to be forms of anarchism.
Hogeye 01:42, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And the reason why we won't use that is presents all ideologies that claim to be forms of anarchism. Claims? Claims? I should be the anarchist son of God, maybe that will grant me inclusion to your article-version. --albamuth 09:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes it would - if you were a political philosophy. Actually Leo Tolstoy beat you to it. We have a link to Christian anarchism, of course. We also recently included Black anarchism and National anarchism. National anarchism is interesting. Its nationalism/race-consciousness is reminiscent of Proudhon's French patriotism and Bakunin's Pan-Slavism. Its anarchism is similar to Kropotkin's mir and Bookchin's municipalism. Hogeye 15:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"We have a link..." So there's a faction of editors out there that don't feel that their work belongs to everyone, that they get their own little article-space to control without allowing contravening evidence, reason, or opinion. Pray tell, where is this miraculous, private article of yours? --albamuth 16:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User:Hogeye/Anarchism maybe? He seems to be developing a temporary article there. --cesarb 17:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What happened to all the talk about english anarchism vs american anarchism .. - have u abandoned it for anarchism socialist verses "anti-state" anarchism?? Why do u talk of "TRENDS" on u.s campuses ... after claiming that anarchism traditional never reached yer shores? I think this is still all about a/c POV warriors and their throwaway 'philosophy'... I dig up that quote again from my standard 1st year book at university (using political ideas by barbara goodwin ISBN 0471935840) "Their true place (anarcho-capitalists) is in the group of right-wing libertarians described in chptr3" --------U see my point is A/C should get a mention.. but that is all unless this article is going to kowtow to the POV requirements of the A/C trolls - max rspct 17:50, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) also: - i have checked the 4th edition (june2004) and although she has expanded ecology and feminism .. Anarchism and it's paragraph on Anarcho-capitalism remains the same (i am sure i put most of it up ..now in archives) if i can get a code for textbridge pro... i will scan the whole chapter. -max rspct 20:13, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

I've submitted a request for mediation between myself and User:Hogeye, User:RJII, and User:Dtobias. If anyone wants to "party up" with me, please add your comment at that link. --albamuth 17:53, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Count me out of that. I've done enough debating here. And, you misrepresented my position on that page. And even speculated there that I was a working for Libertarian Party. Have I ever said that I supported the Libertarian Party or even anarcho-capitalism? Obviously you're not a reasonable person to deal with, as you have immediately begun that dispute attacking motives of individuals and what you perceive to be their political pursuasions. RJII 20:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm insulted, too. No self-respecting anarcho-capitalist would ever join the LP; not since Wendy McElroy got run out way back when. The LP uses evil means (electoral politics) and is way, way, too statist. (They're damn minarchists, for Hog's sake!) Alba is apparently into Wiki gamesmanship. I, too, decline to participate in his new distraction. Hogeye 20:50, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I honestly believe it would be better to participate; it's not "gamesmanship" or a distraction, it's instead a way of trying to resolve a conflict. He might have misunderstood you, but his intentions weren't bad. The purpose of mediation is to try to find a common ground both sides can agree on. --cesarb 21:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If anyone, including any mediator, wants to see my positions they can in these discussion pages. I'm not going to rehash everything to a mediator. All this debate is getting really pointless. Actually, there may be a point to it. The point is to drag this out interminably and keep the biased article protected from being edited as long as possible isn't it? Wikipedia policy says that pages should not be protected "very long." This page has been protected for "very long." The protection, at this point, has become a violation of Wikipedia policy, and if not POV motivated, surely gives the outward appearance of a POV-motivated lockdown designed to keep a biased article from being neutralized. Wikipedia is supposed to be a place where anyone can edit an article. After this length of time, this lockdown is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. I refuse to take part in prolonging the lockdown, here or in mediation. If, and when, the article is unlocked, then I'll be back to edit it.RJII 22:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am really really tired of this debate. I started out editing anarchism on wikipedia because it was immediately the topic that interested me. However, I find myself devoting most if not all of my internet time to this article, when I would really like to be working on other articles. I don't want the article protected forever, either, but it's not going to get unprotected until we can work this out. Also, even if you are not with the Libertarian party per se, your admission of association (Hogeye) still shows that we have two unreconcilable POV's to work out. Mine and yours. How does it affect the definition of anarchism? I don't see why you're opposed to mediation...it's just part of the wikipedia process--it's not like they will TELL us what to do. Are you afraid of mediation because you are willfully making false claims, claims that you know to be false, only for propagandistic purposes? Only zealots ignore what they know to be true in order to promate what they want to be true -- if you are not a zealot, and truly believe in your own arguments, why not enter into mediation? If you claim to represent truth, then what do you have to lose? --albamuth 08:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

mediation is often more about compromise than truth, although perhaps it will do a better job of achieving balance than the various polls and RfCs to, which are even less about truth, but if the mediation isn't binding, what progress have we made? Not only has the mediation process been inactive for months, I doubt it's decisions would be respected here. The text of your request for mediation, was a distortion, and a dismissal of the positions you disagree with, just as your poll questions on the issues were. The lack of intellectual honesty which makes mediation necessary, probably also makes it doomed to fail.--Silverback 09:21, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
There is a lack of intellectual honesty going around, no doubt about that. --albamuth 28 June 2005 13:10 (UTC)
Alba> "We have two unreconcilable POV's..."
I agree. No amount of mediation will change that. I don't believe you will change your definition, and I know I won't change mine. But if you have some new points, present them here publicly on the Talk page, not on some other page. I don't see anything on your RFM page that hasn't been discussed over and over already on this Talk page. Hogeye 16:46, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm requesting mediation because I would like some third party to help figure out how to reconcile this debate. Yes, we've all made the same arguments over and over, polls only point out what we know about each others' positions, and this goes on and on in circles. Something new needs to happen. --albamuth 28 June 2005 07:18 (UTC)

Moving on -- POLL

Question: In 50 words, more or less, what do you object to, in the article in its present protected state?

Answers:

  • It's protected, I think protected articles are contrary to wikipedian principles. Pedant 21:06, 2005 Jun 25 (UTC)
  • The POV definition of anarchism. All other objections follow from that. E.g. the omission of various schools, mischaracterization of what anarchists think/believe. Hogeye 22:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • That it's an article about one particular meaning of anarchism, referring to a specifically anti-capitalist movement, rather than about the broad range of philosophies that can be considered anarchist under a more inclusive definition. *Dan* 01:17, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • Its dissimilarity w articles on the topic which can be found elsewhere, and that this dissimilarity is based on a wikipedian socialist POV lobby, rather than more balanced references than other sources. This article is proof of failings of both the wiki ideals and anarchism. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 01:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The article is not balanced between the two main schools of anarchism, the individualist and the collectivist with prominent mention of anarcho-capitalism in the individualist camp. This lack of balance gives the impression that the well written history and origins of anarchism are "owned" by the collectivist school. The lack of recognition of this primary divide between the individualist and collectivists, does not provide a proper location for the key issues that divide them. Is property coercive and is collectivism (which seems to require some kind of enforcement) coercive? --Silverback 06:46, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • It could use some polish here and there, but basicly it's a good article written in a neutral style. Considering how many different branches of anarchism there are it does a good job covering them all. // Liftarn
  • I have no problems with the range of topics it covers, but would rather that anarchism be presented via evolutionary epistemology, to show the development and addition of ideas. --albamuth 18:36, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So you don't mind discussing the evolution of anti-statist liberalism into anarchism (e.g. Bastiat, Molinari,) and the evolution of socialist anarchism into anarcho-capitalism in the 20th century? Hogeye 28 June 2005 14:19 (UTC)
Just like in evolution, some branches of the meme-pool are dead-ends, and never become a permanent part of it. Unlike biological evolution, influences and sources for the ideas (memes) can be positive, negative (as a reaction against), or even complementary (parallel but not conflicting concepts). For the article, it is not necessary to list every author that influenced anarchist writers (even Isaac Newton would be mentioned), but those authors that framed the concepts that the anarchist movement inculcated and retained. --albamuth 29 June 2005 03:34 (UTC)
Also, what you call "socialist anarchism" never developed into "anarcho-capitalism." To delineate direct relation of one writer's ideas to another, you have to look at whom they cite and refer to. In the absence of citation (original research), you must see if that writer's ideas became part of the memeplex for what we are describing (anarchism). Does Rothbard draw on the tradition of previous anarchist writers? Is there a movement that follows his ideas? If they call themselves anarcho-capitalists, but no anarchists follow those ideas, then it is fair to say that the anacho-capitalist movement follows Rothbard's ideas and that anarchists do not. Therefore, an article about a social movement that expouses a political philosophy called anarchism need not mention Rothbard, but an article about anarcho-capitalism should. Theory: if in evolution speciation occurs when two segments of a population become so differentiated that they cannot breed together, then in political philosophy speciation occurs when two segments of a social movement become so at odds that they cannot purposefully collaborate/agree (take the SWP and the IWW, for example). Caveat: ideologies are not species and memes are not genes, therefore their origination and evolution is not fully analogous. --albamuth 29 June 2005 04:17 (UTC)
It looks to me like Godwin, and even Proudhon to some degree, evolved from classical liberalism. Anti-statist liberalism, Proudhon's mutualism, and Bakunin's socialism are all strains of anarchism. Tucker took some of Bakunin's exploitation theory, and a lot of Herbert Spencer's moral theory, mixed in some Ayn Rand, I mean Max Stirner egoism, creating individualist anarchism. Later, Rothbard synthesized individualist anarchism and Austrian economics to get modern anarcho-capitalism. Your focus, Alba, on only one strain exposes your biased POV. At any rate, it's clear that a history-only article would not break the impasse. It just reframes the issue from "what is the definition of anarchism" to "what should be included in the history of anarchism." Hogeye 29 June 2005 07:21 (UTC)
  • It's in good shape... apart from protection status - but that is there to prevent loads of spurious anarcho-cap POV.. It still could be expanded but I don't have a problem with it in it's present form. I big-up Albamuth's suggestion of presenting the article in an Evolutionary epistemological way. a good solution for all those concerned? -max rspct 29 June 2005 13:47 (UTC)
Wait a second. The protection is not supposed to be taking sides in the content dispute. Do you know for a fact that is why the protection was put on? Please give evidence.--Silverback June 29, 2005 13:58 (UTC)
I requested protection because of all the edits User:Hogeye and User:RJII were making over and over while ignoring discussion on the talk pages. --albamuth 1 July 2005 03:41 (UTC)

Moving on Part Deux - Poll

We've had several polls about the socialist POV article. Now let's have one about the broad-tent article.

Question: In 50 words, more or less, what do you object to in the Anarchism( anti-state) article?

  • The title, "Anarchism (anti-state)" is silly; it implies the existence of a "pro-state" anarchism to contrast it to. I prefer the division "Anarchism (philosophy)" vs. "Anarchism (movement)". *Dan* 18:41, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry - it will be called "Anarchism." The Anarchism (anti-state) article will replace the current socialist article whenever it gets unprotected. Either that or there will be a Neutral Disambig Page which points to both articles - Anarchism (anti-state) and Anarchism (socialist). In the latter case, it is clear that anti-statism is being contrasted with socialism. Hogeye 28 June 2005 14:27 (UTC)
Threats? In what way are threats helpful? Or did you forget to put in a smiley.
I'd also suggest that your understanding of 'socialism' is flawed if you think it has anything to do with statism. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 00:08 (UTC)
  • It's utter false and missleading. It used invented word like "anarcho-socialist". It giver way too much space for "Anarcho-Capitalism" considering how utterly insignificant it is. The section on individualist anarchism is biased, but could be used with some tweaking (probably in the Individualist anarchism article). In short, it's biased and adds very little to what aleady is in the current article. // Liftarn
The first problem can be solved by simply replacing "anarcho-socialist" with "libertarian socialist" everywhere in the article. Hogeye 28 June 2005 14:27 (UTC)
  • It's redundant and biased. In short, there's no need for it. --albamuth 28 June 2005 13:07 (UTC)
  • The proposed article is merely a POV dupe of this one being pushed by a small number of people sympathetic to anarcho-capitalism. It is inferior to the current article and far more biased. In -depth explainations are below. Kev 30 June 2005 03:52 (UTC)
  • Bias, adhoc graphics made up by POV editor/s.. historically inaccurate, misleading..Whole article is contrived to provide POV platform for A/C trollers (talk about ORIGINAL RESEARCH ETC!!!...and that photo of M.Rothbard scares me like the catholic church does) -max rspct 30 June 2005 17:37 (UTC)

Letter to Socialists

We are adversaries, and yet the goal which we both pursue is the same. What is the common goal of economists and socialists? Is it not a society where the production of all the goods necessary to the maintenance and embellishment of life shall be as abundant as possible, and where the distribution of these same goods among those who have created them through their labour shall be as just as possible? May not our common ideal, apart from all distinction of schools, be summarised in these two words: abundance and justice?

Such, none among you can deny, is our common goal. Only we approach this goal by different paths; you proceed along the obscure and hitherto unexplored defile of the organisation of labour, while we proceed along the broad and well-known highway of liberty. Each of us is attemping to lead in train a hesitating and groping society that scans the horizon seeking, but in vain, the pillar of light that formerly guided the slaves of the Pharaohs to the Promised Land.

Why do you refuse to follow the path of liberty alongside us? Because, you say, this liberty which we so extol is fatal to the labourers; because it has thus far produced only the oppression of the weak by the strong; because it has give birth to disastrous crises in which millions of men have lost in some cases their fortunes and in other cases their lives; because liberty unbridled, unregulated, unlimited – is anarchy!

Is this not the reason that you reject liberty? is this not the reason that you demand the organisation of labour?

Well then, if we prove to you with sufficient clarity that all the evils which you attribute to liberty – or, to make use of an absolutely equivalent expression, to free competition – have their origin not in liberty but in the absence of liberty, in monopoly, in servitude; if we further prove to you that a society of perfect freedom, a society disencumbered of every restriction, of every fetter, such as has never been seen in history, would be exempted from the greatest part of the miseries of the present régime; if we prove to you that the organisation of such a society would be the best, the most just, the most favourable to advancement in the production and equality in the distribution of wealth; if we should prove all this, I ask, what would be your response? Would you continue to proscribe the freedom of labour and to inveigh against political economy, or would you, rather, rally openly to our banner, and employ all the precious fund of intellectual and moral forces with which nature has endowed you, to speed the triumph of our henceforth common cause, the cause of liberty? - A Dreamer [4]

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The articles (all of them) are meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive.
--albamuth 03:58, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Anarcho-communism

There is a suggestion on it's talk page that it get moved to Anarchist-communism.. what do people think - Is it anglo vs american usage of the term? -max rspct 30 June 2005 14:10 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter, so long as one redirects to the other. It's just another synonym, like "libertarian communism." Hogeye 30 June 2005 14:25 (UTC)

Well it does matter to some extent.. But yo reaction is predictable, in light of your vaunting of 'left anarchism' and 'anarcho-socialism' (misleading, made-up words.. very rarely used except by detractors) The article should use the most widely used word - and redirect from the other one. -max rspct 30 June 2005 17:27 (UTC)

I don't use the term "left-anarchism," since all anarchism, including anarcho-capitalism, is left - i.e. opposes the ancien regime aka the existing State. Cf: Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty by Murray Rothbard. I consider "left anarchism" and "right anarchism" to be commie terminology used by anarcho-socialists like Ulrike Heider ("Anarchism: Left, Right, and Green.) I have never ever heard a market anarchist self-refer as "right anarchist." Hogeye 30 June 2005 20:06 (UTC)

I've never heard someone today call themself an anarchist-communist, when people identify that way, the dominant term today is anarcho-communist. There's also libertarian communist and free communist (however practically no one uses these anymore). If they're going to integrate the two articles, put them all in anarcho-communism. --Fatal 30 June 2005 19:47 (UTC)

A bit off the subject but...

does it strike anyone as funny that a straightforward definition of anarchism is taking longer than 3 years to hammer out? Wikipedia is by its very nature anarchist, so this seems to me to point out some reasons why anarchism and a strict adherence to consensus process work best on a small scale. Anarchists, if you want to show that anarchism works, lets get it together and move forward on this article.Pedant 2005 June 30 19:13 (UTC)

This has demonstrated the instability and hopelessness of collective ownership - that's for sure. It's pretty clear that the Wiki article on anarchism will never have the quality of e.g. the privately owned Anarchist Theory FAQ, simply due to the controversial nature of the topic. Private ownership, of course, solves problems such as this by providing clear jurisdiction. It took Josiah Warren two years at Robert Owens' utopian community to figure out that individualism and private property were where it's at. Here we've demonstrated the same thing in under a month! Hogeye 30 June 2005 19:57 (UTC)
I'd disagree. I'd suggest that it demonstrates only that, to survive, any community must have a way to prevent vandals from wreaking their will. There will always be a small group of anti-social people who gain enjoyment from destruction and the imposition of their will on others. That doesn't really impeach the idea of communal ownership at all. Communal ownership is voluntarily practiced by over 700M people throughout the world as of 1995--more than twice the population of the USA. And it works fine for us. If you want to see an example of communal ownership that has endured for at least 300 years, look back through the issues of National Geographic. You'll find an article about a communal irrigation and farming system in New Mexico. Every year the village allocates land, and on an agreed day everyone turns out to de-rubbish the canals. The elderly and infirm have their equal allotment, and the rest of the people take care of it for them as a matter of course. It's very nice. Many peoples living a pre-industrial life successfully practice communal ownership because the people around them depend for their lives, too, on mutual respect and talking things out. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 12:26 (UTC)
You are right, Katz, that remote desert aboriginals can make collective ownership work. Why will that work, but not Wiki collective ownership? Mainly due to the closed system and the common values. Probably a stranger to the culture would have great difficulty joining the tribe. In fact, very few outsiders want to participate in such primitive lifestyles, so the question rarely comes up. Similarly, the few successful utopian communities limited themselves to like-minded religious cultists, and were typically very stict on who could join.
Constrast that with Wiki, where anyone can join, and where the commons is open to anyone and everyone, and is easily accessible from any computer rather than in a remote desert. Sure, Wiki could make its commons work - if it severely restricted who could become editors, and protected its property with passwords and such. Hogeye 1 July 2005 16:42 (UTC)
Thus completely destroying most potential of a wikipedia freely edited by all users, and most of its spectacular growth over the last couple years. Kinda like propertarianism and its effect on the economy, sacrifice most of its potential in order to strictly control what little you have left. Good analogy Hogeye, very informative of authoritarian views. Kev 1 July 2005 17:21 (UTC)
[giggle] I'm not sure I'd call US citizens living in New Mexico with all the trappings of modern industrial life 'remote desert aboriginals'. :-) You seem to have a much more gloomy view than I of human willingness to cooperate. Yet it's been demonstrated that, except for the few psychopaths under the tail of the distribution, most people respond to their socialization by becoming cooperative. It's only later in their lives, because of the split-personality nature of Capitalism (it rewards competition in school, then demands cooperation on the job while rewarding pseudo-cooperative competitiveness) that people's socialization starts to break down under the strain. We get what we reward. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 20:13 (UTC)
Katz> "You seem to have a much more gloomy view than I of human willingness to cooperate."
I wouldn't say that. I would say that I have a much broader view of what cooperation among humans is.
Katz> "Most people respond to their socialization by becoming cooperative."
I agree. People have achieved an amazing amount of cooperation in production by use of division of labor and private property. This capitalist cooperation has already brought much of the world out of starvation and poverty.
Katz> "It's only later in their lives, because of the split-personality nature of Capitalism (it rewards competition in school, then demands cooperation on the job while rewarding pseudo-cooperative competitiveness) that people's socialization starts to break down under the strain."
I find it rather bizarre that you use schools, heavily dominated by government, to be an example of capitalism. I see the government schools as statist indoctrination centers - the enemy of capitalism.
Frankly, your implicit premise that people are motivated primarily by competition vs. cooperation is mistaken IMO. People are motivated by self-interest, as they perceive it. They are much more interested in whether an action is in their interest than whether it is cooperative or competitive. I consider both cooperation and competition to be natural and good. Most actions have elements of both.
Kev> "Thus completely destroying most potential of a wikipedia freely edited by all users..."
The so-called potential is undermined by a fact of reality: overuse. This is the classic tragedy of the commons. Either Wiki gets overgrazed (edit wars and semi-permanent freezing of articles), or it must limit the number of users. All successful communes (e.g. the family) are small. Small is beautiful. Wiki's growth is precisely what will make it unworkable. Hogeye 1 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
Well, this little OT discussion has been fun and I wouldn't mind continuing, but I'm feeling a little too guilty about doing it in this context, so I'll stop here. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)


Using your analogy, it's more accurate like this: the local community consensus agrees on one thing, and then a guy flies in from out of town, who doesn't even believe in consensus, and runs into the room screaming "I'm being excluded! I'm being censored! CONSENSUS!! INCLUDE ME!!!" essentially ruining the original consensus of a community they were never part of. It's like a republican coming into an anarchist festival and demanding that everyone adhere to their love for "america" and capitalism because they are personally offended by the black flags and revolutionary literature. I don't think I ever met an anarchist that believed consensus should be used on a scale of hundreds of millions. Consensus is something that supposed to be used in groups no bigger than a community or neighborhood, given that almost all decisions that are important can be made locally, when the need for larger opinion is needed, they don't negotiate in one larger meshing of the two, they decide what their collective decision is in their community and tell the other, and yes it makes a huge difference. To debate using consensus, you first have to actually believe in consensus, and to debate anarchism you have either be an anarchist or know what the fuck you're talking about and know about anarchism, two requirements that hogeye and the other vandals on here DO NOT HAVE. --Fatal 30 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)

Fatal> "Using your analogy, it's more accurate like this: the local community consensus agrees on one thing, and then a guy flies in from out of town, who doesn't even believe in consensus, and runs into the room screaming "I'm being excluded!"
That's not a bad analogy, Fatal. It recalls the Puritans of Massachusetts in the 1600s. The local community consensus was no Sabbath-breaking, strict dress codes, puritanical codes of conduct and work, and that everyone should be a good Puritan. Occasionally a Quaker or Baptist would wander through. These heretics would be imprisoned, beaten, mutilated, or "whipped through town." This latter was popular - you remove the shirt of the Quaker (man or woman), tie them to the back of an ox-cart, and whip the shit out of them in every town on the way to the border. Then dump them in the atheist hell-hole of Rhode Island. Of course, in the virtual world, your whip is replaced by mere pixels on a screen. It's going to be hard to whip the blasphemers through town with mere pixels. You might have to share the commons; either that or have a commons war. Hogeye 30 June 2005 21:33 (UTC)
The concept of consensus is grounded in the idea that those joining a group that seeks consensus in decisions will also seek consensus, not purposefully join in order to disrupt consensus. Your analogy to Puritanism is entertaining, but misplaced. --albamuth 1 July 2005 03:57 (UTC)

Responding to the RFC

I'm a pro-social anarchist (and currently embroiled as such over in the misnamed 'libertarianism' page). I believe that the bare term 'anarchism', like the bare term 'libertarian', is too general to be colonized by any sectarian group. In other words, I see no reason why the pro-Capitalism sect can't have equal room under the anarchism umbrella. This implies that the 'anarchism' page itself be a pure portal/distributor/disambiguator page, and that each of the sects settle for having a page with a fully-qualified/disambiguated title.

I'm arguing that same position over at 'libertarianism', and plan to lodge an RFC on Monday as the first step in the conflict-resolution process. Since the pro-Capitalism forces are taking the same stand here that I am taking over there (I found that wonderfully ironic, needless to say), can we count on having your support for making that page, too, be a disambiguator rather than the highly partisan POVful page it is now? Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 00:01 (UTC)

I can't speak for any of the other pro-capitalists, but I just might be willing to go along with a compromise position that gives more "balance" to the "left" and "right" varieties of libertarianism (notwithstanding that pro-capitalist libertarians such as myself don't actually consider ourselves "right wing", as we reject the one-dimensional political spectrum altogether), provided that a similar thing is done with respect to anarchism. *Dan* July 1, 2005 00:39 (UTC)
That's what I'm talking about. I think the most NPOV solution that can be reached is to 'demilitarize' the small-l/small-a terms, and cede the big-A/big-L terms to the pro-social and pro-Capitalism groups respectively as proper nouns/terms of art that have somewhat settled associations (in the case of Anarchism, going back more than a hundred years) Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)
I would not mix the issues with of one article with another. --albamuth 1 July 2005 03:54 (UTC)
I think they're mixed naturally--don't you find the terms to be synonyms in practice? I certainly do. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)

Katz> "This implies that the 'anarchism' page itself be a pure portal/distributor/disambiguator page, and that each of the sects settle for having a page with a fully-qualified/disambiguated title."

I take it you mean something like this Neutral Disambiguation Page? That was suggested here (by me) early on - but every single one of the ansoc partisans rejected it out of hand. (And even got the sub-pages deleted.)

Yes, I do think the libertarianism article would be more NPOV were it to have a similar "portal/distributor/disambiguator page." E.g.


Libertarianism in its most general sense is a philosophy holding liberty to be the primary political value.

Libertarianism may mean:

  • Libertarianism (capitalist) - the a political philosophy favoring personal and economic liberty or freedoms to the extent that they do not infringe on the same freedoms of others.
  • Libertarianism (socialist) - political philosophies dedicated to opposing coercive forms of authority and social hierarchy, in particular the institutions of capitalism and the state.

Also see Libertarianism (metaphysics) - a conception of free will.


Hogeye 1 July 2005 02:42 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I like your proposed disambiguator pages, too. I'd probably urge some tweaks, especially in your proposed anarch page (e.g. everyone is anti-state), but nothing really major. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)
I would split those into individualist and collectivist, or right and left (left and right is probably the most common use). RJII 1 July 2005 02:48 (UTC)
I think you'd have to define 'collectivist' before I'd know what to say about your suggestion. The meaning I have for that term doesn't seem to fit. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 12:46 (UTC)
Why not talk about libertarianism on the appropriate talk page? ;) --albamuth 1 July 2005 03:54 (UTC)
I don't think we're so much talking about libertarianism as we are about both l. and anarchism and how to resolve the conflicts that are mirrors of one another. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 12:46 (UTC)

IMHO does the current disambig (This article describes a range of political philosophies that oppose the state and capitalism. For other uses, see anarchism (disambiguation)) a good an NPOV job. // Liftarn

I disagree completely with Katzenjammer. I think the current disambig scheme in both Anarchism and Libertarianism is the way to go. The Libertarianism page has already been through a RFC, and multiple people have come and gone trying to get liberatrian socialism on that page. It never works!!! At least try learning from past mistakes. My biggest problem is what other word would you use for non-anarcho-capitalist anarchism, and what would you call non-libertarian socialism libertarianism? To rename both would require us to basically make up a new term. Unlike what was said above, not all non-individualist/non-capitalist anarchism is anarcho-communism (anarcho-syndicalism and post left anarchy are completely different). The best word to use might be social anarchism, but that word was originally used as a contrast to individualist anarchism, and may not include some newer variants. In short, anarchists use the word anarchism (with no qualifiers), anarcho-capitalists, use the word anarcho-capitalism. Let them have their page, and point to that page where nessecery in this article, just as libertarianism points to libertarian socialism whenever it might be mentioned. There's no need to reproduce info. in several articles just to appease some people who haven't been here to see these same edit wars ad nauseum. millerc 1 July 2005 13:02 (UTC)
Perhaps you misunderstand what Dan, Hogeye, and I are suggesting? We're not talking about 'get[ting] libertarian socialism on that page'. We agree that 'it never works'...or certainly is unlikely to work as long as people believe their needs can only be met by a zero-sum solution.
We're talking about letting every sect have their own page both there and here, letting each sect define the small-letter term 'libertarian' or 'anarchism', parenthetically qualified, entirely as they please. We could probably increase the NPOVness by also allocating rebuttal pages to every sect so that, for example, the pro-Capitalist anarchists/libertarians could complain about the shortcomings they find in the corresponding pro-social pages and vice versa.
Our presumption is that everyone wants to get their understanding of the term anarchism or libertarianism published in a way that doesn't make it seem as though their definition is less valid or central than any other definition. Can you agree with that characterization of people's goals? Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 13:57 (UTC)
I think you're the one who misunderstood. I have no problem with describing different political philosophies. What doesn't work is trying to label non-anarcho-capitalists as something like "socialist-anarchist" or someother BS, since they call themselves anarchists (no qualifiers). In fact, the best solution I've heard so far is the historical approach advocated by albamuth. Its what worked for the liberalism article, which seems to have achieved as much of a NPOV as a political article can. But this has already been suggested in the past (see the archives)! No one else's idea of anarchism or libertarianism or liberalism is being pushed aside. 'Libertarian socialism' is seen as a valid term by libertarian socialists, but there is no corrosponding valid term for what I would call right wing liberatrianism. The same is true for anarcho-capitalism and anarchism... millerc 1 July 2005 16:13 (UTC)
Perhaps you're right and I do misunderstand. But let's see whether we can come to an agreement about what people's goals are. Can you agree with the statement I made, above? If not, would you please say in what respect you think it's in error?

No New Arguments?

Since I made the Summary of Arguments above, I've noticed that no new arguments not on that list have popped up. Is it really that simple? Have all the relevant arguments been made? Does anyone have any new insights arguments to add? Why not let this go to mediation, then? Or failing that, arbitration? --albamuth 1 July 2005 04:04 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more true to our pro-social beliefs, as Pedant implied above, to agree a cooperative solution in which everyone gets a fair share? Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 12:08 (UTC)
Everyone having their "fair share" does not entail that a handful of people in a town of 10,000 should get half the representation, over and above even more significant factions such as primitivists and individualists. Currently the article is already disambiguated, there was only one single group which wanted it disambiguated and it was done just for their sake. This should be all that is necessary. Then the anarcho-capitalism section was added back in, which is redundant when it is already disambiguated since this page is no longer supposed to be about their selective definition. I'm happy to go with either of these solutions (rather than both), and either is completely "fair" given both the controversial nature of their claims to our tradition and their relative insignificance historically, they are getting their very own page to detail their views, and either way a method by which to link from this page to their own. To do what the anarcho-capitalists are attempting to do, have this page both disambiguated and introduce anarcho-capitalism, -plus- change the definition to suit their bias, and add in a bunch of misleading charts combined with over-simplified comparisons, and rearrange categories to make it appear that wikipedia itself supports their claims, and put in tons of links to their own factional books, is certainly not in the realm of "fair". Kev 1 July 2005 17:10 (UTC)
Kev still doesn't grok the difference between disambiguating different definitions of "anarchism" and links to particular schools. Well, Katz, you see the problem. Not a single partisan anarcho-socialist supports the neutral disambituation idea. I suspect that some may come around in the long run, but only after months of edit warring (and/or article protection) when it will become apparent that they will never regain absolute control over the article. It seems to me that so long as the ansoc faction sees the possibility of "winning", either via binding arbitration or edit warring, they will not come to the table willing to negotiate. Hogeye 1 July 2005 17:44 (UTC)
Kev, have we been sufficiently clear about what we're proposing? Your description makes me feel that we haven't. We're talking about a bare-bones page that points to sectarian pages. That would mean that this current page would no longer be required to have any pro-Capitalist content at all, not even links. It could be made 100% pro-social, with all negotiation limited to like-minded people. All NPOV-ness would be encoded in the tree structure of the pages, not in the content of any page. This page, under our proposed solution, could become the 'Anarchism' page rather than the 'anarchism' page. The 'anarchism' page would be the neutral, bare-bones page that would point to all the second-tier pages.
How do you feel about that? Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 19:32 (UTC)
Now I'm not clear. I think Wikipedia ignores capitalization of the first letter. Are you sure it's possible to have both an anarchism and an Anarchism article? I was thinking we'd have to have something like anarchism (anti-state) and anarchism (anti-state + anti-capitalist). Hogeye 1 July 2005 20:12 (UTC)
You might well be right, I've been too busy to do any experimentation to see how it works. In fact, now I come to think about it, you almost certainly are right. It might even force capitalisation of the page title, for all I know. But I've been assuming all along that, even if the linkage can't be flagged to be case-sensitive, we can achieve the goal in an honest way editorially. Katzenjammer 1 July 2005 20:29 (UTC)
Alba, if all relevant arguments have been made then mediation is useless. In any case, as you see there is still a lot of discussion of the Neutral Disambiguation Page, and about enlarging the discussion to include a deal concerning the libertarianism article.
I just don't understand your insistence that mediation would help. Is there some brilliant mediator you have in mind that would come up with a magic bullet to change your mind about the definition of anarchism? Who would you like to be mediator? As for arbitration: I prefer continued attempts to convince people than giving the decision to some unknown arbiter. Furthermore, I question what mediation or arbitration means in Wikiworld, since every new editor overrides all previous decisions. Hogeye 1 July 2005 16:14 (UTC)
Hey Hogeye, the libertarian party called, they're missing one of their members.
Reason #37 why LPers don't like me: Tweedledee or Tweedledum. Hogeye 1 July 2005 22:51 (UTC)
Not to mention, the people who get bored of debating (like me) and wait for you guys to come to a consensus then come back and start editing. This whole procedure of coming to a consensus is a sham. I'm convinced this protracted lockdown is POV based to keep the article from being changed. I suggest that anyone who wants the article to be unlocked, stop debating. Official Wikipedia policy says pages shoulnd't be locked for very long. It's going on a month now. . This lockdown is in violation of policy. We're just playing into the rogue adminstrator's hands by dragging out these debates so he can keep the article locked. RJII 1 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
I wonder what the record is for lockdown time? Hogeye 1 July 2005 22:51 (UTC)
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