Talk:Training corset
Inacurate
The content of this article is problematic - it is largely incorrect.
"Training corset is a type of rigid used by the first Tightlacing"
Any style of corset can be used for training, in the sense of tightlacing and body modification. The two corsets depicted here are for different purposes.
- The advertisement is for corsets for girls (as evidenced by the range of ages listed under the illustration), in which the shoulder straps are to keep the corset positioned correctly, and possibly to ensure 'corect' posture (that is, with back straight and shoulders square).
- I can guess at the purpose of the corset in the other illustration: shoulder straps were sometimes added to corsets for women with larger busts, to achieve better shape and support. I do know that the long cross-over shoulder straps would have a negligible effect on the size and shape of the waist - the waist shape was given by the corset's rigid boning.
The tighting of the waist is, simple because muscles which been pressured and make passive disappear after a year.
Muscles have very little to do with tightlacing - the weakening and wasting (although not "disappearance") of muscles is a secondary effect of wearing a corset. The diminishing size of the waist chiefly requires the lower ribs (particularly the lowest two, which are known as 'floating ribs') to be squeezed closer together
The problem is the ribs which slope down and must raised up.
Ribs do not slope downwards, and there is no need to raise them up in tightlacing. This is a nonsense statement.
Added to these gross inaccuracies, the article is poorly written. I am going to make some changes to improve all this! Katherine Shaw 11:43, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
'Disputed' message
I have some problems with Haabet's latest additions - the statements go against my common sense and my knowledge. However, I am not an expert (particularly when it comes to anatomy) and I would not mind being proved wrong.
'"...as if a long corset is used as one's first corset, the ribs are depressed futher, which has negative effects upon the body."
The length of the corset has very little to do with depressing the ribs - it is the circumference that conpresses the ribs. A short corset - i.e., a waist cincher - avoids compressing the ribs, but only by virtue of not touching them.
"The training corset raises the ribs by use of a shoulder brace, which elongates the waist and expands the lung area."'
If there is a source to support these statements, give it to me and I'll shut up!
I have never encountered the shoulder brace, or shoulder straps, used to elongate the waist. They might encourage correct posture, which would visually make the waist appear longer. Correct posture would also ease the wearer's breathing, which would be severely constricted by wearing a tight corset - but nothing could expand the lung area!
Apart from this, shoulder straps could not raise the ribs. It just is not possible. Sources may claim that they can, but they cannot. Think about it: a corset gets its shape from the boning. Once a body is laced into a corset, it's a pretty solid thing, and it would take some very strong forces to change the shape given by the boning. The force of fabric straps passing around the waist and over the shoulders would not be strong enough. The only thing that could move the ribs upwards would be a corset with boning that put pressure on the ribs from underneath.
"Use of a training corset may result in shoulder problems, because the shoulders have no direct connection to the spine and naturally follow the ribs' alignment, although a good shoulder brace may reduce this problem."
I would like to see a source for this too. I cannot find any references to training corsets - either contemporary or historical - having shoulder straps for these reasons; the reasons for corsets having shoulder straps or incorporating a back brace are support and posture, not rectifying problems caused by tightlacing.
There is a lot of misinformation about corsets around, most of it stemming from historical myths and BDSM corset fetish fatasies. The WIkipedia should avoid perpetuating these at all costs - which is why I want sources!
--- Katherine Shaw 14:27, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
- I do have a source for the historical use of training corsets, but it isn't a written source. She's a vintage clothes dealer in Iowa. In conversations with her she's mentioned that in the 1800s girls often wore corsets from a very young age in order to develop the fashionable but unnaturally small waist. She says that these corsets would prevent the lowest pair of ribs, called floating ribs, from developing properly.
--Kerowyn 06:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The number of floating ribs is four or two pair. To change the floating ribs correctly you have need of places to they.
All the ribs have need to go up, as the chest been bigger as it have space to liver and stomach. The chest can go up without the floating ribs, as they are in the slim waistline.
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13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)~~
Ribs picture
OK, I'll admit that I was wrong: some of the ribs are sloping. However, once the reference to raising the ribs up is removed, the pitrue is irrelevant - so I'm taking it out.
--- Katherine Shaw 14:27, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
old meaning and new meaning
The problem is "Training corset" and "Tightlacing" in olddays stop when the girl had the fashionable waist, after just few months and "Training corset" and "Tightlacing" today continue in years. The old meaning and the new meaning is incompatible. Haabet 17:09, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
major edits - documentation
I considered removing the following because it makes absolutely no sense. Corsets with straps pull down on the shoulders, and don't dig in under the ribs. Even if they did somehow get fitted to push up on the bottom ribs, it would contract the lung area, not expand it. (there is nothing for them to attach to to provide upward force on the shoulders). I left it in because it is the majority of the content in the section about using a training corset to prepare for a regular corset. I would also like to note that a cursory search did not find any reference at all on the web to such a practice.
- The training corset raises the ribs by use of a shoulder brace, which elongates the waist and expands the lung area. Use of a training corset may result in shoulder problems because the shoulders have no direct connection to the spine and naturally follow the ribs' alignment, although a good shoulder brace may reduce this problem.
I also removed this string of "features" of a discipline corset because they are not even sentences.
- Generally tailored to individual measurements for comfort, ease of tight lacing and health. Fully lined with firm Poly/Cotton twill for extra strength and comfort - this variety of twill is thin, yet very strong, durable and colorfast. All major corset panels are quadruple stitched with polyester thread for extra strength and structural integrity. To prevent skin chafing, thin and strong twill tape can be fused on the interior of the corset waist instead of being exposed on the outside of the corset. Can include a strong steel busk closure for easy wearing and removal of corset. Firm underbusk to prevent painful and unhealthy excavation of upper abdominal cavity. Flattens lower abdomen and promotes proper posture. Flat steel boning allows firm control with ease of movement. Stays can be mounted on the exterior or interior of the corset. Extra-firm rear steels support back. Promotes proper posture while preventing undue pressure on vertebrae and kidneys. The back is fully laced with strong, flat nylon laces for smooth, easy pulling. A Lacing Protector may be used to protect the back from rear laces.
Dreamingkat 03:48, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Changes in Chest Cavity Size
I've been looking for information about changes in chest cavity size due to any cause with little success. The best I've found is that during pregnancy, hormone changes cause the ligaments holding the ribs in place to loosen so that the lungs total capacity doesn't shrink very much. (It shrinks because pregnancy forces organs usually in the abdominal cavity into the chest cavity to make room for the baby.) I'm going to keep looking, but I continue to have serious doubts about the idea that any sort of clothing can expand the thoracic cavity. I do believe that the result of wearing a corset - even one that doesn't move the ribs - is that one's lung capacity decreases due to the other organs moving the diaphragm upwards. If no one can find a source in the next few days, I'm going to remove the assertion that historical training corsets did expand the thoracic cavity. Dreamingkat 16:27, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- The stiffness of cartilage been create of microscopic thread and this threads are not sensitive of hormone changes, because they are dead tissue like wood. It is a absurd theory as dead tissue can been changed of hormone. The geometry of the chest by the pregnancy is as the lung been short and broad and this shape is relatively effective for the lungs, because the been effective drain for air in every breath. And the breaths in the chest is quicker as in abdomen. If the woman been breathless she break some of the microscopic thread in cartilage, by the heavy breaths, and the soften cartilage give quicker breaths.
- Normally the survived thread grow after the pregnancy. (grow on the outside) But sometimes all microscopic thread is broke and the cartilage of the chest have losed the stiffness, and the woman been a hysterical hypochondriacal cow, because the respiration been to big if abdomen and chest collaboration and the respiration stop if abdomen and chest oppose. I have a theory as Many more woman than man get mental illness because woman have sleep problems, because the respiration stop in some stage in the sleeping.
- Lung Expander GB Chest Expanders Haabet 18:01, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to assume that there is a bit of a language barrier here, since the ribs are bone (which is live tissue), and I was referencing ligaments (which are what connect muscles to bone - also live tissue). I agree that breathing rate (number of breaths per minute) increases during pregnancy - that is to help offset the decrease in lung volume due to the diaphragm moving upwards. I'm not really sure what to make of the rest of your response, as I can't understand it.
- Do you have an alternative source (something other than your own website) to back the claim that you can permanently increase the size of the thoracic (chest) cavity? A list of patents isn't useful when discussing anatomy. People can (and do) patent all sorts of things that don't - and can't - work.
- Or are you trying to say that putting shoulder straps on a corset forces proper posture, which makes breathing easier? That I can readily agree to.
- Dreamingkat 03:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Good was soo intelligent as then he created Eva, he do as she be able to breath, during the pregnancy; or alternative the devil 'Darvin Evolution' choke all pregnancy by por breath. ;-)
'sene' is Danish for 'ligament which are what connect muscles to bone' and 'sener' is Danish for 'ligaments which are what connect muscles to bone' English is very difficult.
If the 'sener' been soften the musculature do not work.
'ligament' in Danish is two zones (in the front of the hip) which been soften before the delivery.
By the pregnancy the breathing been improved by several ways:
- The proper posture. What is full reversible.
- Stronger muscles in the chest. What is not reversible, but if she not use they, they do nothing.
Yes I know as muscles disappear if you do not use they, but the muscles of breathing are a exception.
- Lift of chest. What is full reversible.
- Soften of cartilage. What is normally full reversible, but some time not reversible.
- more ....
The doctor on http://www.staylace.com/ tell about secondary grow of cartilage in the chest.
Cultivation of the Chest, Edmund Shaftesbury 1895
All ex-sport women have extend lungs. Except: Shooters and yachtswomen.
Haabet 17:48, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Two meanings
Have Traning Corset of today any ting to do by 'Traning Corset in the past?
Haabet 19:21, August 4, 2005 (UTC)