Talk:Székely Land

Present and past

The article should the present status first and only afterwards what it used to be (a historical autonomous region). The opening sentence "Szekelyfold was .." is improper. Szekelys still exist today (unlike Romans, Huns or Dacians) and they live in the same territory since centuries. The term "Szekely land" evokes first of all the area inhabited by Szekelys in the mind of any Hungarian or those who know the region. In fact, there is barely any Hungarian who never heard of or couldn't locate Szekelyfold on a map. On the contrary, those who know about the historical autonomy of the region are much fewer. Akiss 11:22, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Autonomy initiative

Indeed there is an ongoing issue about the autonomy initiative of the szekely region, and the debates stir up strong opposition among Romanians. Criztu's edits seem biased by a POV against this initiative: "670,000 out of 1,140,000" means nothing except trying to prove that Seclers are barely majoritary in Szekelyland. Remember, most of Mures county is not within historical Szekely land. Criztu's statement that "Szekelys are claiming all these 3 counties" is unfounded. (If it implies the claim within the autonomy debates, it is still not true: to my knowledge, they are not claiming the entire Mures county and they propose referendums for each settlement. But again, autonomy discussions are not in the scope of this article. Nevertheless, anyone expert may start an article about that. With of course, references to such 'claims'.)

See Discussion of article Szekely for more.

Japanese lang.

It is interesting to note the similarities with Japanese: hon, 本 (homeland), and seki, 席 (seat).

That is an useless piece of trivia, since Japanese is not related (as far as we know) to Hungarian. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 07:48, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

"Historical region"

Criztu, why you don't agree with the label "historical region" ? bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Bogdan, is Szekelyfold a historical region of Romania, or is Szekelyfold a historical region of the Kingdom of Hungary ? -- Criztu 19:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Székelyföld is an historical region. The fact that it is inside Romania is not relevant to its status. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 20:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

in this case we'd have to maintain that Moesia and Dacia are historical regions in Romania. -- Criztu 05:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Moesia is mostly in Bulgaria and Serbia and Dacia included at times parts of Hungary (and as a Roman province parts of Serbia), but, yes, they are historical regions. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 09:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

then we have to define what a historical region is.

OK. My definition is that a historical region is a region that has some cultural or linguistic features that differentiate it from the neighbourhood. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

here is the wiki definition of "region" : In European politics, a region is the layer of government directly below the national level. The term is especially used in relation to those regions which have some historical claim to uniqueness or independence, or differ significantly from the rest of the country..

Most words have several meanings. Region may indeed refer to a level of government, but it has several other meanings as well. Here, we are not talking about present-day EU politics, we are talking about culture, history etc--Tamas 19:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

if you say "Szekelyfol is a region in Romania", then you are talking about present-day EU politics. if you are talking about things in the past then you say "Szekelyfold was a region in the kingdom of Hungary" -- Criztu 20:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and the wiki definition of "historical" : History is a term for information about the past.

• is there a current layer of government for Szekelyfold ? there isn't
• was there a layer of government for Szekelyfold ? there was, during the Kingdom of Hungary

can we safely say "Szekelyfold was in the past a historical (meaning it was in the past) region (meaning it had a layer of government) in/of the Kingdom of Hungary" ?

can we safely say "Szekelyfold is in our days a historical (meaning it was in the past) region (meaning it has a layer of government) in/of Romania" ? -- Criztu 19:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• to get a better picture, here is the formulation for Northumbria : Northumbria is primarily the name of an Anglian or Anglo-Saxon kingdom which was formed in Great Britain at the beginning of the 7th century, and of the much smaller earldom which succeeded the kingdom. The name reflects that of the southern limit to the kingdom's territory, which was the River Humber, and in the 12th century writings of Henry of Huntingdon the kingdom was defined as one of the Heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. and the formulation for Anjou : Anjou is a former county (c.880), duchy (1360) and province centred on the city of Angers in the lower Loire Valley of western France. It corresponds largely to the present-day département of Maine-et-Loire. and the formulation for Aquitaine : Aquitaine (Gascon and Occitan: Aquitània; Basque: Akitania) (anciently "Guyenne" or "Guienne") now forms a région in south-western France along the Atlantic Ocean and the Pyrenees mountain range on the border with Spain.

so there is no "Northumbria is a historical region (kingdom in this instance) in England" and there is no "Anjou is a historical region (province in this instance) in France" , but there is a "Aquitaine is a region in France" -- Criztu 19:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ardeal is a historical region of Romania, and officialy it can be reffered to as such today. Szekelyfold was a historical region of the Kingdom of Hungary, not of Romania. That is why there is a szekler initiative to attain recognition of a Szekelyfold, historicaly bonded by the Kingdom of Hungary, not by Romania, nor with any form of romanian administration. It has no history with Romania. Szekelyfold never was a region of (or within the borders of) Romania, and certainly not "is". It was a region of the kingdom of Hungary hundred years ago, as Scythia minor was a province of the Roman empire thousand years ago. yet there is no article stating that "Scythia minor is a historical region in Romania" -- Criztu 11:32, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, you want to make sure that the readers doesn't want to believe it is a historical region of Romania ? I'll try to rephrase it. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I want to make sure we write about things that were in the past, like "Szekelyfold", and things that are in the present, like Harghita, Covasna and parts of Mures counties. -- Criztu 19:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

an then why not listing all administrative regions that existed during the Kingdom of Hungary in the territory that is now within Romanian borders, say "Kis-Kukulo is a historical county in Romania" ? >:) - Criztu 11:52, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Because a region has to do with the culture and people, while a county has to do with internal political organization. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 12:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

can you show any romanian official map with a "Sekelyfold" region/province alongside Oltenia, Muntenia, Ardeal, Moldova, Dobrogea, Basarabia, Bucovina, Maramures, Crisana and Banat ? -- Criztu 19:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you show any official Turkish map with a Kurdistan region/province? Official maps can be quite misleading in this respect.--Tamas 07:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

can you show any official American map with a historical Apache/Comanche region ? Can you show any official Hungarian map with a historical Municipium Iassorum (Yazigia) region ? :) -- Criztu 09:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:)Let me put it this way. (1) Szekelyfold is a historical region. (2) Presently, Szekelyfold is in Romania. (1) and (2): Szekelyfold is a historical region in Romania. Or we could say: Szekelyfold is historical region presently situated in Romania. And as far as official maps are concerned, I do not think official maps should decide what is a historical region and what is not. Official maps contain the present-day administrative division of a country, which may or may not coincide with historical regions.--Tamas 17:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it is obvious that you ignore that "Szekelyfold was" and you want to keep the formulation "Szekelyfold is". i'd say you are making efforts to attain unofficial recognition of a "Szekelyfold autonomous region in Romania" :) -- Criztu 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the record: I do not agree with Criztu's latest reformulation. I think the part was OK as it was. A historical region does not cease to exist just because administrative boundaries are redrawn.--Tamas 20:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

unfortunately the term "historical region" is used mainly by nationalist hungarian propaganda, no other article on "regions that were and ceased to exist" has the label "is a historical region in [country]" except for the articles about the regions that once belonged to Hungary -- Criztu 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is not true. Try and run a search for "historical region". You will get 338 hits, among them Historical regions of Central Europe, Historical regions of the Balkan Peninsula. Some historical regions do not coincide with any present-day administrative region, e.g. Lusatia. (quote from the page: "Lusatia is not an administrative unit") So as far as the established practices of Wikipedia are concerned, there is nothing agains calling Szeklerland a historical region.--Tamas 21:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

funny, many of those articles are locked, and few have the the formulation "is a historical region". I think it is fair to say "Szekelyfold was a region". The Szekely population continues to live in the former Szekelyfold region, and they are wishing for official autonomous status for a Szekelyfold region. But, there is no region Szekelyfold in Romania. pls understand you can write about the existence of a "past Szekelfold", but speaking about existence of a "present-day Szekelyfold" when there are other forms of administration in its place is in my view a form of propaganda. I can't agree with you stating "Szekelyfold is a region in Romania". sorry -- Criztu 05:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think the main difference between us is that you interpret region in purely administrative terms, why I believe that region can be used in a broader sense: cultural, ethnographical whatever. Anyway, I do not want to push this issue any further, if the sentence "The term Szekelyfold is also used in a cultural-ethnographical sense, i.e., referring to the territories inhabited by the Székelys." can stay it is fine for me.--Tamas 09:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

History

I tried to add some content about the history and development of the region. I know it is not perfect and far from finished, so please help if you can.--Tamas 22:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Reunited with or placed under its administration

I noticed my original wording ("Szekelyfold was reunited with the Kingdom of Hungary") has been changed to "was placed under the Kingdom of Hungary's administration". Now this wording may be more polite, but it is also incorrect. In 1867, the Kingdom of Hungary and Transylvania were as a matter of fact united, that is, completely amalgamated, Transylvania ceased to exist as a legal entity and enjoyed no administrative independence whatsoever: it was completely merged into the uniform county system. Cultural etc. differences of course remained, but as far as the legal situation is concerned, the Kingdom of Hungary and Transylvania were reunited. In this case, reunited is a neutral word: it simply indicates that earlier in time, they were one country, now they became united again, i.e., re-united. To say that "Transylvania was placed under the Kingdom of Hungary's administration in 1867" would be like saying that "in 1920, Transylvania was placed under the Kingdom of Romania's administration" which would of course be incorrect to. In both cases, Transylvania was united, first with the K of H, then with the K of R. --Tamas 17:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please try to answer my arguments first and do not just keep reverting what I wrote. Also, until 1920, Transylvania legally belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary. So the date is 1918, not 1920. --Tamas 20:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the fact that Hungarian administration effectively ceased to exist in 1918 when Transylvania representatives proclaimed union with Romania, but the union was ratified in 1920 has to be clearly stated. but erasing/ignoring the period between 1918-1920 (when the area was disputed between Hungary and Romania) might not beregarded "as made in good faith" -- Criztu 21:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i ain't an expert, but there are these forms of administrative/statal actions:

• Transylvania unites with Romania/Hungary, that is: the representatives of Transylvania sign a legal paper by which they proclaim union with Romania/Hungary

Such a thing has never really happened: it was the Romanian and German inhabitants of Transylvania who singed such a declaration, Hungarians (about a third of the then population) were not asked about their opinion.--Tamas 20:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the representatives of Romanians proclaimed union of Transylvania with ROmania in 1918, Saxons and Scwhabs approved the legal document, which was ratified by international powers in 1920, so Transylvania united with Romania really hapened, and the union was recognised as such by the international legal bodies. If you can present a Proclamation of unification of Transylvania with Hungary ratified by international legal bodies then i wont object to a formulation "Transylvania united/reunited with Hungary -- Criztu 21:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Transylvania is placed under Romania/Hungary administration, that is: there are no representatives for Transylvania, but there are legal papers signed by the owners (in this case an empire) of Transylvania and Romania/Hungary

I am sorry, but that's how things worked in those undemocratic times . We cannot impose our democratic values on undemocratic times.--Tamas 20:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Transylvania was placed under Hungary's administration, this is the correct formulation -- Criztu 21:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Transylvania reunites with Romania/Hungary, that is: the representatives of Transylvania sign a legal paper in which they proclaim the reunification with Romania/Hungary

True, that's why I wrote "was reunited" (passive voice) and not "reunites" (active voice)--Tamas 20:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lol, if you and me would have each 51 % of two different legal business, could these two businesses "be united" (passive voice) against our will ? can we instead "unite" giving that we each legally hold 51% of the shares of these businesses, even if there are share holders not wishing a union ? :) -- Criztu 21:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

so, there can't be a "Transylvania was united/reunited with Hungary/Romania" but either "Transylvania united/reunited with Hungary/Romania" or "Transylvania was placed under Hungary/Romania administration" -- Criztu 20:44, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What I want to say is that according the legal standards of the age, Transylvania was reunited with Hungary in 1867, and united with Romania in 1920 (or 1918, although I think it is the date of the treaty that matters here.)--Tamas 20:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

you should be able to provide similar examples of administrative territories "being united", and please provide evidence that "Transylvania was united with Hungary" before 1867, if you claim that "Transylvania was reunited with Hungary" -- Criztu 21:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, you are probably right that united is emotionally loaded and can be misinterpreted as something that happened democratically. What about "incorporated"? That is a purely legal term, it says nothing about whether people liked it or not, or whether it was a democratic decision. "Reincorporated" would be more accurate, as Transylvania was a part of the K of H between 10c-16c. I agree with you that what happened in 1867 was deeply undemocratic, but that's how it happened. The Habsburg Monarchy was a Monarchy, after all, and not a liberal democracy. If people click on Austro-Hungarian compromise, it will tell them it was a deal between the ruling classes, not a democratic process. So let's stay with reincorporated, it is more accurate then either 'placed under the administration of" or "united with".--Tamas 21:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

what is wrong with saying "Transylvania was conquered by the Kingdom of Hungary in the XIth century", and "in 1867 the compromise of the Dual Monarchy placed Transylvania under Hungarian administration" ? -- Criztu 06:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It would be more accurate to say that Transylvania was conquered by Magyar tribes in the end of the IXth century. The Kingdom of Hungary was founded later, around 1000. But I have absolutely no problem with the word conquering when refering to the IXth c. My problem with "placed under Hungarian adiminstration" is that it sounds like a provisional measure, like "Kosovo is under UN administration", that is, until there is a decision on its final legal status. 1867 was not meant to be a provisional measure: Transylvania ceased to exist as a legal entity, it was completely merged into the Hungarian county system. What about "Transylvania became a part of the Kingdom of Hungary and ceased to exist as a legal entity"? Is that more acceptable to you? --Tamas 09:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i had a similar discussion with Scott Moore about the Trianon Treaty and "Transylvania is placed under Romanian sovereignty" which is the formulation used in the treaty, haven't thought that 'placed under administration' may be interpreted as a temporary thing. i'm fine with "incorporated", i'll search for the formulation used in this "Transylvania became a part of Hungary"... just for the record, any administrative action is temporary, that is, until a new administrative measure takes place :) -- Criztu 12:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:) --Tamas

as for the "magyar tribes conquered Transylvania in the end of IXth century", it is only propaganda (that is, a lot of talk with little certain evidence). what is known for sure is that Kingdom of Hungary conquered Transylvania in the XIth century (talking about a "union/conquest of Transylvania with/by Hungary", not a "union/conquest of Transylvania with/by Magyar tribes"), at least i assume there are chronicles and ancient documents testifying the conquest during the XIth century. (assuming that those documents and chronicles weren't "pure inventions" :D ) -- Criztu 12:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am not a medievalist either, but as far as I know, Hungarian tribes occcupied more or less all of the Carpathian basin at the end of the 9th C - beginning of the 10th C. Now until 1000, that is, Hungary's becoming a kingdom, there was no unified administration, Transylvania was governed by one of the "chieftains" or princes or whatever you call these leaders of the tribes. It was the first king who brought in a centralised government. Which the "chieftain" in Transylvania opposed, and then the king defeated him and brought Transylvania under his rule. One interpretation of this is what you have just said: "the Kdom of H conquered Transylvania". The king's interpretation would have been different: "T belonged to the Kdom of H in the first place, I only crushed a rebellion against my legitimate rule" :) Personally, it does not really matter to me whether this happened in the 9th C or the 11th C, I am really fed up with this who arrived first, who was more civilized etc debate. --Tamas

this is the hungarian propagated version of what might have hapened in those days, based on those "scarce" documents and chronicles like Gesta Hungarorum :D. remember, there was a chronicle/legend speaking of a duke Salan in Pannonia that was defeated by Arpad in 896, Arpad whose legendary father Almos (born by a virgin mother) lead the magyars out of the enslavement of the khazaars, being foretold that as soon as he enterss Panaan he will die, and so on (straight up medieval forgery of the past)... this version is as thin as the story of Gelou, Glad and Menumorout whose states were conquered during the Xth century, and which the hungarian POV disaproves as being "fiction". i think the only thing certain is "the kingdom of Hungary claimed sovereignty over Transylvania starting with the XIth century" (but so did the Angevin Hungary claimed sovereignty over Moldavia and Wallachia, it doesn't mean "Moldavia and Wallachia were united with the kingdom of Hungary" or "Moldavia and Wallchia were conquered by magyar tribes" :) -- Criztu 17:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• No, Criztu, what Tamas writes above is not propaganda but more or less the opinion of modern Hungarian historiography (and is in lime with the Wikipedia [Arpads] article, which has a large number of contributors, and not all of them Hungarians). Transylvania was subjugated in the early 11th century by King Stephen of Hungary and from then on was part of his realm (sovereignty was not just claimed but was a reality). There is plenty of evidence supporting this (not just GH, which seems to be the only piece of evidence about Gelou - hence both Slovak and Hungarian historians believe that Gelou was probably created by Anonymus). Angevin claims over Moldavia and Wallachia is an entirely different issue. As you point out the Angevin kings were largely unable to enforce their claims. Scott Moore 16:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

well, the "Hungarian tribes occcupied more or less all of the Carpathian basin" is pretty "touched" by a "magyar-centric" view on history of "carpathian basin". the example with the Angevins claiming authority (but not ethnicity or ethnic majority, or effective control of the internal administration) over Wallachia and Moldova should make clear that it is not clear how thorough was the control of the Kingdom of Hungary over the population and territory inside its borders, let alone the "percent of occupation" of the lands in this "carpathian basin" during the 9th century. you may say there's plenty of evidence, i say there's plenty of deductions/theories (based on scarce evidence), that are propagated by the hungarian side. -- Criztu 17:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it is just a fact of life that there are certain problems in history that we cannot clear up once and forever, for lack of conclusive evidence etc. Which means that it is absolutely possible to have two (or more) perfectly plausible theories about a single problem (just visit the page on Daco-Roman continuity, you will find 3 nicely elaborated theories, all three of them perfectly plausible). So just because someone has different opinions from you, like those Hungarian historians you refer to, you should not call it "propaganda" out of hand. Believe me, most Hungarians (me included) don't give a damn whether Transylvania was occupied in the 9thC or the 11thC. This whole nationalistic "who arrived first in Transylvania and has therefore the "historic right" to it" debate is so embarassing, it was embarassing when it started, but now in the 21stC its even more so, we should really not get caught up in it here. --Tamas 18:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Criztu, you are mixing two issues. Occupation of Transylvania in the 9th/10th century by Magyar tribes is one issue, which we can address on the Translyvania article Talk Page. But,I was writing about the control of the Kingdom of Hungary over Transylvania from the 11th century onwards, which is a separate issue. As I wrote, there is plenty of evidence for this. Scott Moore 10:06, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

wikidefinition about "incorporate" : In local government, municipalities such as cities, towns, townships, villages, and boroughs are considered incorporated when they are self-governing entities under the laws of the state or province in which they are located. -- Criztu 06:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, but that's a definition for the word "incorporated" (an adjective), used in a limited (local government) sense. I'm speaking about the verb "to incorporate" which has many broader meanings. See also [1], the wiktionary entry for the verb incorporate. --Tamas 09:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can I join the debate gentlemen? Just one point - in 1867 Transylvania became part of the Kingdom of Hungary (not just placed under its administration). However in the Transylvania article it is currently written that Transylvania "became a province under Hungarian control." I'll see if I can find more details on the precise status of Transylvania after 1867 and how it is termed in English (I have an American book on the 1848 revolution which probably has a final chapter on the ausgleich). After reaching an agreement on the formulation, we should make sure that we have consistent text in both the articles. Scott Moore 15:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting link about the many kinds and meanings of regions

Just for fun, check out this interesting presentation: [2]--Tamas 09:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Székely land

I am thinking of including the definiton of the "historical Szekelyland". I think, the areas where the historical royal privileges were effective could be a possible way to define it. The land belonging to the communities of the former Székely Seats (Székely Székek) before the 1867 administrative reform may be a good basis (Aranyosszék, Csíkszék, Udvarhelyszék, Marosszék, Háromszék). I would not include villages of Székelys outside these areas (eg. in Moldova, Bukovina) because the historical royal privileges did not have any effect in these areas. --KIDB 15:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Number of szekelys in Romania

here, the number of szekelys are 1,624,959 in a 1992 census. Approximately this number (1,5 million) is considered as number of ethnic hungarians in Romania, but Romanian nationalists consider this number around 670.000. I don't know wheter the mentioned census is newer than 1992, or not, but I'm absolutely sure, that the 1.6 million can't reduce to 670.000 in 13 years (1992-2005), the number of them here is 1,431,807, so I changed the number of them into approx 1.4 million.

Other: In Hungary, every ethnic hungarian who lives in Romania is (very often) considered as Szekelys ----VinceB 19:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)--

[the 2002 census], at the homepage of the political group: Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania

Székely people in the Kingdom of Hungary

Vince, Székely are the people who live in the regions shown in this image. Indeed, there are some people who do not know what the difference is between Székelys and other Magyars, this article is to inform them about it. I will revert your edit. --KIDB 08:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to "Székely land"

Well... our policy says to use English when there is an available name. For example, we have Basque Country and not "Euskal Herria". bogdan 21:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't Székely Land be better? Olessi 23:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point :-) bogdan 18:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming conventions

Why so many Wikipedia pages on cities with Hungarian majority promote dual names and worse, sometimes the Hungarian name ahead of the official one? The naming conventions are very clear: we use the English name and if none is available we use the official local name. And there's only one such name, so there's no debate about it. If it's no historical context (like the geography of the place today, or events happening in the last few years), there's no reason to use other name (or alternate names). Daizus 17:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Autonomy initiatives

I moved here the disputed text from the main page until an NPOV is elaborated. --KIDB 18:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Today there is a local Székely initiative to attain regional autonomy for the Székely Land, within similar boundaries to those of Romania's Hungarian Autonomous Region (1952-60). Most ethnic Romanians, however, oppose this idea. It is also doubtful whether the present constitution of Romania (which defines the country as a unitary nation-state) could accommodate any autonomous regions based on ethnicity.

Since 2005 and 2006, representatives of the Hungarian minority have presented their desire to re-create the autonomous region under the name "Székely Land (Szekler Land)". The proposal stirred a series of scandals within the Romanian press and political system.

At this time, the Hungarians are the only major national minority in Europe that does not have any sort of autonomy (cultural or regional). The right for autonomy is just one in the long list of themes which are controversial in Romanian society. Some Hungarians request the re-opening of a separate Hungarian-speaking only Bólyai University (currently part of a bilingual Babeş-Bolyai University) and the return of cultural and religious properties to the Hungarian community, as well as the creation of a minority law.

Székely Hungarians are seeking territorial autonomy, inspired by Western European models, such as the Catalan minority's model in Spain. The autonomy must have a legal basis and will have to be voted by the Romanian parliament. The Romanian political system and the press considers this initiative an "attempt against the Romanian state's territorial integrity" and therefore rejects it.

Hungarians using the Székely symbols, Hungarian inscriptions, or singing the Hungarian and Székely anthems face aggressive opposition from the Romanian side. The Székely banner is a dark blue field, which contains a golden Sun and a silver Moon. In 2006, a group of Székely Hungarians placed a plaque containing the Székely banner near a road at the entrance to Covasna County. The act got to the headlines of Romanian newspapers and the Romanian Police removed it from the spot.

In 2006, President Traian Băsescu of Romania condemned the idea of an autonomous Székely region.

In February 2007, a local Székely commission organized a public opinion research campaign in the Székely areas. Over 80% of the population voted "yes" for the autonomy of Székely Land, but this act created conflict again and the subject appeared in the headlines of the Romanian news. The public opinion research campaign was called a "separatist attempt" by the Romanian side.

On February 11, 2007 Emil Boc, the mayor of Cluj-Napoca, maintained the referendum is illegal and called it an "instigation to territorial separatism".

On February 12, 2007, President László Sólyom of Hungary visited Romania and met Băsescu. The discussions included the controversial topics of minority rights and autonomy. Băsescu has pointed out the situation of the Székely in Romania is in full respect with the standards of the European Union. He also mentioned a referendum for territorial autonomy is illegal and characterized the Székely initiative not as a test of the public opinion, but as a test of Romanian laws. Romania's Interior Ministry has said that organizing an informal poll is actually not illegal.[3]

Proposal

I worked a bit on the text above, this is the result. 
I would be glad to see any comments if this is NPOV now? 
Should it possibly be moved into a new separate article? --KIDB 14:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Székely Land is one of the largest European regions with a significant ethnic minority. After the fall of Communism, many hoped that the former Hungarian Autonomous Region, abolished by the Ceausescu Regime, would soon be restored again. The majority of the Romanians, however, don't support this idea, and the new constitution of Romania, passed after the fall of communism, defines the country as a unitary nation-state. President Traian Băsescu declared that regional self-governance should be dealt with in a new regulation about Romanian regions and Székely Land should have no more autonomy than any other region in Romania. In spite of this, there are local Székely initiatives to attain regional autonomy for Székely Land. There are different organisations with different concepts, based on examples of other European regions like Catalonia, or South Tyrol.
The most important political party representing Hungarians in Romania is the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania. They are assuming a somewhat cautious position, and try to lobby for an act on cultural autonomy. This would include provisions like the introduction of Hungarian language History and Geography education in the Hungarian schools, or birth and wedding registration in Hungarian language for those who request it. After negotiations with the coalition partners (the party is presently part of the governing coalition), the draft was submitted to the Parliament by the Government of Romania in 2005. The draft, however, has still not been discussed by the plenary session of the Romanian Parliament.
Other Hungarian organisations with lower political representation have proposed wider level of autonomy. Section 8.b) of the Founding Declaration of the Székely Land based Hungarian Civic Alliance explicitly calls for the support of the autonomy initiatives of the Hungarians in Romania.
In 2006, a group of Székely Hungarians placed a plaque containing the Székely banner near a road at the entrance to Covasna County. The Romanian Police removed it from the spot. Also in 2006, a major peaceful demonstration was held in Odorheiu Secuiesc in favor of autonomy. President Traian Băsescu visited the town the next day and held negotiations with the major of the town, also president of the Hungarian Civic alliance, Jenő Szász.
In February 2007, a local Székely commission organized a public opinion research campaign in the Székely areas. Over 80% of the population voted "yes" for the autonomy of Székely Land. On February 11, 2007 Emil Boc, president of the Democratic Party of Romania, maintained the referendum was illegal and called it an "instigation to territorial separatism". On February 12, 2007, Hungarian President László Sólyom of Hungary visited Romania and met Băsescu. The discussions included the controversial topics of minority rights and autonomy. Băsescu has pointed out the situation of the Székely in Romania is in full respect with the standards of the European Union. He also mentioned a referendum for territorial autonomy is illegal and characterized the Székely initiative not as a test of the public opinion, but as a test of Romanian laws. Romania's Interior Ministry has said that organizing an informal poll is actually not illegal.[4]

Yes, I think this version is OK. Just a few points:

• We should probably get a source for the extent of public support for Szekely autonomy. So, how many people within Szekelyfold support it, and how many within Romania as a whole.

That would be great, the problem is that I don't have any sources. (I wish I had time for it.) I have, however, already met with Székely people who don't think autonomy is necessary (and with more who think it is...) If I may add a personal remark: I think that if Székelys had similar rights to the Italians in Switzerand, I don't think the autonomy would be an issue at all. --KIDB 16:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think this sentence could be reworked: "President Traian Băsescu declared that regional self-governance should be dealt with in a new regulation about Romanian regions and Székely Land should have no more autonomy than any other region in Romania." What I remember Băsescu saying was that the whole of Romanian should be decentralised more, but that this should be done symmetrically rather than asymmetrically. It is important to note that the current government supports symmetric decentralisation.

Yes, I agree. --KIDB 16:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think more information and analysis should be given about the referendum and its legality. Frankly, the whole idea of the referendum being illegal, or Szekely autonomy being illegal, is Democratic political rhetoric. The fact that Romania is defined as a "nation state" does not mean that certain regions cannot get more powers than others; the constitution stipulates nothing about devolution or asymmetric decentralisation. Szekely autonomy is thus perfectly legal, as was the consultative referendum.
• We should probably mention the SzNT/CNS somewhere, particularly with regard to their reasons for autonomy.

Thanks, Ronline ✉ 15:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I will move this text into a new article called Székely autonomy initiatives for further discussions and edit by other editors. I hope, this way the Székely Land article can be saved from further edit wars. --KIDB 06:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic map

Ethnic map of Harghita, Covasna, and Mureş Counties (2002 data).

File:Szekely1992.png

Ethnic map of Harghita, Covasna, and Mureş Counties (1992 data).

I removed the image with the 1992 data because I think it is very hard to see the difference and there is no point in displaying both of them. --KIDB (talk) 09:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

User:MNsRATEw (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) initiated a request to move the page, stating "there is no gov. of Szekely it's simply a region from Romania." Looking at the history of this talk page, the name of the article is an issue that has been visited before. Accordingly, there needs to be discussion here before any move takes place. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to say I'm for or against the move right now; if consensus is reached that the article should be moved, I will be glad to offer technical assistance. —C.Fred (talk) 06:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The proposal at WP:RM is for a move from Székely Land to Székely Region so it appears only land vs. region is in question here. Perhaps there is assumed an implication that "land" refers to a state (country) whereas "region" does not. However, as can be seen in Chełmno Land, Victoria Land, Ovamboland, Gorkhaland, and many others, the suffix land is frequently use in English for non-official, sub-state entities. — AjaxSmack 23:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the other map should be deleted, or both be kept but I'm willing to consider sources or any other thing you might want to point out but randomly deleting one of the maps (possibly the better one) can't be right. Hobartimus (talk) 00:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. I don't see this a too complicated question. Székely Land has been called Székely Land for many centuries. The historical German name is Szeklerland, too. The similar Saxon historical region in the neighborhood is called Burzenland, AFAIK Burznland is not an independent state. Such attempts to re-write reality can mislead only people who are not aware of local issues. --KIDB (talk) 14:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Differences between maps

We have two maps in the article, in one of them the South of Covasna (Întorsura Buzăului area) is part of the traditional Szekely land, while in the other is not. Which is the truth?--MariusM (talk) 01:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the second map which seems inaccurate.--MariusM (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the other map should be deleted, or both be kept but I'm willing to consider sources or any other thing you might want to point out but randomly deleting one of the maps (possibly the better one) can't be right. Hobartimus (talk) 00:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope Hobartimus will join this talk page and provide sources for the accuracy of the second map. I consider first map as accurate because the South of Covasna is not populated with szekelys, it is a Romanian-majority area. In Întorsura Buzăului there are 99% Romanians [5]--MariusM (talk) 00:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually I joined it at the same time :) just edit conflicted. I see your problem now you confused about the second map. If you read the caption it says nothing about present day population only about 19th century "traditional" borders of Székely Land. So the two maps show 2 different things with the colored area one is present day population other is area. Hope this explains it, the population has nothing to do with coloring on the second map. Hobartimus (talk) 00:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

First map is showing also a "traditional szekely land" (separately from current population) and is conflicting with the "traditional land" of the second map. Considering that Întorsura Buzăului is today 99% Romanian (as sourced above) I doubt it was populated by Szekelys in the 19th century. Please provide sources specifically including the actual South of Covasna county in the traditional Szekely land in 19th century.--MariusM (talk) 00:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually the first map shows two lines one is titled "Traditional" but it is unspecified if this is 14-15-17-19th century exactly. The other line is titled pretty badly it's also not clear what is the source of it but it also includes the area we talk about. So even the first map had some source based on which it included the territory in one of the lines. Also IMHO population has not much to do with this the "traditional land" is simply the actual borders within which Székely's had certain extra rights I imagine this wasn't redrawn every year to follow smaller (in regards to area) changes. Hobartimus (talk) 00:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I also found that the city you qoute and linked Bodzaforduló is indeed 99% Romanian population but it was formerly known as Magyarbodza (city was split to several parts then some villages attached to this part to get todays Buzaului). The most I could find about this city is that it was in the 'Sepsi' area (1202 km2) 45 274 ppl out of 12402 Romanians ,some but not all of the population there. But as I said population not that relevant here. Hobartimus (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For the blue line in the first map is given a clear explanation: "Szekely Land as claimed by the autonomy supporters". This is different than "traditional Szekely land" which is showed in the same map. For me is quite obvious the basis of the claims of autonomy supporters: The main basis is the actual Romanian county system as it was designed by Nicolae Ceauşescu. The autonomy supporters are claiming the entire teritorry of Harghita and Covasna counties, regardless of the fact that it was or not part of the traditional Szekely land or it has or not an ethnic szekely majority. In adition of that they are claiming a part of the Mureş county, based on two principles: the traditional Szekely land (regardless if it has or not a Szekely majority) and also the Hungarian-majority areas which are contingeous with the traditional Szekely land. As is written in our article: In 1876, a general administrative reform abolished all the autonomous areas in the Kingdom of Hungary and created a unified system of counties. As a result, the autonomy of the Székely Land came to an end as well. We can not discuss about a "traditional Szekely land" after 1876, when the Austrian-Hungarian kingdom abolished Szekely autonomy. Even if Întorsura Buzăului was part of the Hungarian Haromszek county after 1876, this is not proving that it was part of traditional Szekely land. We need sources for the teritorry of the traditional Szekely land before 1876. Actual claims of the autonomy supporters are not relevant for the historical situation.--MariusM (talk) 23:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I should add that the first map is quoting as source "the map of Szekely Land in the 19th century".--MariusM (talk) 23:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Clear explanation? But what is the source of it? Quote obviously there must be some source from which the information was taken by map creator but this is not given. You guess that it is based on the Romanian county system a guess good as any. One thing was achieved by giving it a tendentious name "claimed by autonomy supporters" is attempt to generate distrust in that version using the word "claimed". Truly we have no idea what it's based on but we have another map which states somewhat similar borders as the "traditional Székely land", which includes the area in question. Can be resolved quickly if the creators reply. Hobartimus (talk) 00:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Also the difference is really little I don't think it's worth this much energy to debate it. Hobartimus (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I've announced both the authors of the maps, User:KIDB and User:Andrei nacu, to join this discussion.--MariusM (talk) 00:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My map was mostly based on the already existing map of the Szekely Land plus the 2002 ethnic data and the border of the territory claimed by the autonomy supporters, mainly the CNS (Szekely National Council).

According to this site Intorsura Buzaului was also 99% Romanian in 1850 (only 2 Hungarians lived there), so it is very unlikely that it was part of the Sepsiszek.

http://www.intorsurabuzaului.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=40#Istoric

This map of Transylvania in 1869 shows the area (most of it) as part of the Feher/Alba County.

http://sebok1.adatbank.transindex.ro/legbelso.php3?nev=erd1869

These links (in Romanian) are pointing out the claims of the Szekely National Council on all of Covasna and Harghita as well as parts of Mures. A few of members of the Council even claim the whole of Mures (this is why I represented the blue border in the Mures County with an interrupted line).

http://www.transilvaniaexpres.ro/index.php?mod=articol&id_articol=40552

http://www.muresinfo.ro/stiri/stiri.php/dt/2007-11-02/Stirile_zilei/

http://www.infoms.ro/home/detalii-stiri/article/1507.html (the end of the article)

Andrei nacu (talk) 17:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The question is really simple what map you used as your source of the "traditional Székely land" line on the map in question, was it this one, 1806? Hobartimus (talk) 18:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian town names were taken from this map and borders from the map I already mentioned 1869. I think my only mistake is that I wrongly included the Tusnad area in the Szekely Land.

Andrei nacu (talk) 18:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What I find odd that the 1869 map doesn't have a territory marked as Székely Land (pls don't forget the é insted of e on map captions). Other maps have a more clearly marked territory as [6] Széklyföld (Székely Land) and even the 1806 has a colored region Székely székek. 1806. I don't see any colored area on the 1869 one. Btw I'm not arguing for deletion of your map I want to keep both actually. A minor point for your map is that the captions could be "Traditional Székely Land in 1869" (so give the date to show it's only 1 point in history) and "Proposal of Székely council" or something more precise instead of the vague "autonomy supporters". Hobartimus (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

All the informations in the first second map are present also in the second first map, which is giving also some aditional informations and seems to be more accurate. I don't see any reason to keep the first map, except to confuse our readers. Regarding the caption, I think that "autonomy supporters" is more clear for our readers than "Szekely Council", they will not need to read an other Wikipedia article to understand what it is all about. The main political Hungarian party from Romania - UDMR - is publishing on its website a study proposing to redraw Romania's development regions, one of the proposed regions being formed by Harghita, Covasna and (entire) Mureş counties see page 43 of the study. While in this study is not used ethnicity as basis of argumentation, there is evidence about the desire to have a region with a Hungarian majority and the proposed inclusion of the entire Mureş county (not only traditional Szekely land) in this region. As I told, the main basis for such demands is the actual Romanian county system as designed by Nicolae Ceauşescu.--MariusM (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how what you say is relevant here. None of the maps under discussion include anything like you said. If you watch the borders closely none of the maps follow county borders even not in the case of Mures and not in other cases. In some places it goes over the county borders somewhere it stays well within, but none follow them exactly like the proposal you speak about. The maps in the article supposed to depict Székely Land's historical borders as they actually existed as that is the topic of the article lines on them supposedly from "autonomy supporters" are not really on topic in the first place. Hobartimus (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I made a mistake in my previous explanation, is the second map which I removed, based on following reasons: (i) is unsourced and probabily inaccurate; (ii) the informations about traditional Szekely land is already included in the other map. we don't need two maps for this. I explained in my edit summary. Your comment is not giving any reason to keep that map.--MariusM (talk) 21:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Correction, as the creator said the first map gives a 1869 version of Traditional Székely Land one point in time, the other gives possibly a different one. What exactly is the harm in keeping both maps? Hobartimus (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Is your guess about the second map. We don't write encyclopedia based on guesses, but on sources. An unsourced information can always be removed. The harm can be for the credibility of Wikipedia, if there are inaccurate informations in the articles.--MariusM (talk) 22:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Better put a map like this, which will include Aranyoszek, it has some aditional information for our readers.--MariusM (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The 1869 version gives the names of the individual Székely sees and Székelyföld is not written because there's simply no room left. The older maps 1809, 18th century etc. are not showing the sees because their borders are not exactly known. The 1869 map is more detailed and, I think, more accurate than the other maps on that website. Secondly, I also think that both maps should be kept. The first one to show the current political issue of the Szekely Land and the second to represent the administrative organisation of the Székelys in the XIXth century. The second map could be improved and Aranyoszek added as User MariusM proposed. I could redraw it if the map creator agrees.

Andrei nacu (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

An improved second map, including Aranyoszek and excluding Întorsura Buzăului area from Szekely land as long as there are no sources to specifically include it should be better for this article.--MariusM (talk) 22:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we all agree then. Hobartimus (talk) 23:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. I am sorry I visit Wikipedia rarely these times so I was not able to comment before my map was deleted. I like the design of the new map, however, I must say it is inaccurate.

1. There is no clear definition of the area autonomy supporters would like to see as autonomous region. There are many different groups with different ideas. You should specify, which group, party, or association designed the map you refer to.
2. Traditional Székely Land included Întorsura Buzăului, too. Traditional Székely Land was an administrative unit of Hungary, later Transylvania, not a region based on ethnicity. Here is a 19th century map of Háromszék for you. Regards, --KIDB (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems the border of administrative units varied in time. In interwar Romania Întorsura Buzăului and Sita Buzăului were part of the Braşov county, as mentioned in Romanian Wikipedia [7]. I have also a map of interwar Romania which confirmed that. "Trei Scaune" Romanian interwar county didn't include the south of actual Covasna and our article is saying that "Szekely adminstrative borders were preserved".--MariusM (talk) 13:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Quote from Romanian Wikipedia article about inter-war Braşov county: Plasa Buzăul Ardelean cuprindea localităţile: Barcani, Budila, Dobârlău, Întorsura Buzăului, Mărcuş, Sărămaş, Sita Buzăului, Teliu şi Vama Buzăului. It is exactly the South of Covasna which was included in the administrative unit (plasă) Buzăul Ardelean (Magyarbodza), and was part of Braşov county, not of "Trei Scaune" (= Haromszek) county.--MariusM (talk) 14:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You should change the text in the Romanian Wikipedia then. Here is another source. I am sorry, you have to accept that the most reliable sources about Székely Land are in Hungarian. --KIDB (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Is difficult for me to understand Hungarian. I copy from your source:

Întorsura Buzăului (Întorsura Buzăului, CV, oraş) Bodzaforduló.# Név: 1839 Bodza-Fordulás; (O.T.) Bodza-forduló; 1863 Bodza-Forduló; 1873 Bodzafalu. # Névvált. 1839 Floroje. # Nemz. 1839 oláh. # Nyelv: 1873 román. # Közigazg. 1839 Háromszék, Sepsi-Szék, Feketeűgy-mellyeki j. pr.; 1850 Udvarhelyi katonai ker. Sepsiszentgyörgyi krz. Nagyborosnyói alkrz.; 1857 Brassói ker. Barátosi j.; (O.T.) Udvarhely (Székelyföld) tvh. Sepsi-Szent-Györgyi ker.; 1863 Háromszék, Sepsi fiókszék, Feketeügyi j. >> Bodza; 1873 Három szék, Sepsi felső j. = Bodza (Vámos-); 1880-1900 Háromszék vm. Sepsi j.; 1910 Háromszék vm. Sepsi j. >> Magyarbodza; 1930 jud. Braşov, p. Buzăul-Ardelean, = Buzăul-Ardelean; 1941 jud. Braşov, p. Buzăul-Ardelean; 1956 R. Stalin, r. Codlea; 1966 R. Braşov, r. Tîrgu Secuiesc, com. urb. Întorsura Buzăului. . As far as I understand, that is showing that in 1930 Întorsura Buzăului was part of Braşov county, that mean Romanian Wikipedia is correct. Maybe our article is not correct saying that "Szekely adminstrative borders were preserved" (in interwar Romania). I see in 1839 mentioned Haromszek and in 1857 mentioned Braşov, I am not able to translate exactly.--MariusM (talk) 15:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, basically there is not too much translatable text in it :-) According to this, the village belonged to Háromszék, except for the period after the 1848 Revolution, when it was temporarily, for a couple of years, part of Udvarhely, later of Brassó districts, then it returned to Háromszék again. Anyway, I don't think the Romanian county system after the 1st World War has any relevance to Traditional Székely Land. I am still convinced that the new map is not correct. --KIDB (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

After seeing the arguments of KIDB, I decided to modify the maps in order to include Intorsura Buzaului/Bozdafordulo in the Sepsiszek. I am waiting for suggestions regarding the limits of the Szekely Land as proposed by the organisations supporting its autonomy. Andrei nacu (talk) 18:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. --KIDB (talk) 13:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Hungary

I removed this tag from the talk page. According to the project page, WikiProject Hungary "is mainly designed to help users collaborate on articles, but also to resolve disputes, and to coordinate work on vandalism, clean-up". I think, most of these activities can be successfully done on this talk page. If you do not support the removal of the tag, please discuss it here with other contributors. Thank you. --KIDB (talk) 13:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)